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Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actions

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:36:15 PM EST
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The Durham City Manager today defended the early actions of the Durham police.

A Duke University committee's report blames Durham police for sending mixed messages in the early hours of the lacrosse rape investigation, but Durham's city manager is firing back. The report says Duke officials did not take the case seriously because Durham police officers said it would blow over.

"I'd like to see where that source of information came from," said Durham City Manager Patrick Baker. He admits the first two or three hours after the rape was reported were confusing as to whether the alleged victim was intoxicated or mentally ill. But Baker tells Eyewitness News that once a rape kit was in hand, there was no confusion. "We had launched a full-scale sexual assault investigation, by 4 or 5 that morning," he said.

Check out this one page Duke University Police report (pdf) dated March 14 released today. It states the accuser was picked up at Krogers "and she was claiming" she had been raped by 20 men. The report says the accuser had changed her story several times and the Durham police did not expect more than misdemeanor assault charges to be filed in the case.

The report was signed by Christopher Day and approved by his supervisor, J.O. Best. The time Duke Police were contacted is listed as 3:00 a.m.

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    Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actions | 159 comments (159 topical)
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#1)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:58:48 PM EST
    Gee, this seems to confirm what I've been speculating.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:01:46 PM EST
    Nifong must have some medical evidence that convinces him without a doubt that she was raped.
    I agree again, Teresa. From what evidence we've been shown (which is to say, very little) it's not hard for me to believe that the AV had "consistent with rape" injuries, but it is becoming harder and harder for me to believe that they were inflicted by the Duke guys.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#3)
    by wumhenry on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:05:13 PM EST
    Nifong must have some medical evidence that convinces him without a doubt that she was raped. If not, he must be crazy. He hasn't had a reputation in the past for being difficult and he is being very difficult and stubborn in this case. I know I can be naive but surely he has something.
    To conclude merely from the fact that he hasn't backed down that he must have something is, indeed, naive. The inference wouldn't be naive if there were no likely ulterior motive for him to pursue the case -- but there IS a likely ulterior motive, and it's a very obvious one. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -R.W. Emerson

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:06:57 PM EST
    The SANE exam - we only know a little about the exam, though the District Attorney characterized its findings as being "consistent with rape." I presume the nurse performed the exam in a professional manner, and that a toxicology report exists - I presume this is the information the DA is holding back. Once again, this piece of the puzzle is consistent with a rape occurring, but once again, it's not obvious either. One problem is that the defense claims to have photos which show bruises while the AV was dancing and that she subsequently fell while leaving the house. I suspect that the exam can distinguish those types of injuries from rape - but they may have influenced the nurse's opinion. A second problem is that the AV's occupation, would lend some doubt as to whether the injuries were caused during the "party," or during some previous (or subsequent) encounter. Interestingly, the defense has not claimed consensual sex. A third problem is that absence of DNA evidence (at least, per the State Lab with regard to semen and other bodily fluids). One would think that this would be situation where DNA would almost have to be present...obviously, the DA initially thought so, too. While the condom explanation may be a partial explanation, it would still seem that hair, sweat, etc. would be available. Of course, there is then the broom explanation, but even this would probably leave some debris....and if the AV did not mention it during the report, it would be a little hard to accept. While one might argue that the AV was not coherent enough to remember, that explanation eliminates her ability to ID the alleged assailants. Thus, not obtaining DNA is a problem. A fourth problem is the finger nails. If the nurse or forensics expert scraped her nails, s/he is bound to have noticed if the AVs nails were recently repainted. The reason that this could be important is that it affects the time-line of events and may make it impossible for Seligman to have participated in the alleged rape. And, if her ID is wrong in one case, the jury will be less inclined to believe her other IDs and thus, require even more DNA evidence. Thus, if I were a juror, I would be frustrated at this point, there may be a rape, but for a just conviction to occur, it has to be tied to a specific person. Next step....the police report

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:09:48 PM EST
    kalidoggie
    Lastly, by the way, for those of you who instantly dismissed the lacrosse players as having no credibility and so quickly accepted Nifong's characterization of them as "hooligans":
    I don't buy for a second that good grades and community service mean you don't get REALLY drunk and occasionally out of control. That's a big part of what college is all about. But other than the rape allegation and possibly the racial slurs, the "hooligan behavior" they've attributes to these guys all strikes me as pretty normal.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#6)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:10:16 PM EST
    wum, is his motive to destroy himself?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:13:08 PM EST
    Teresa, are you sure there is no way for him to ultimately back out w/o "destroying himself."

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#8)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:16:19 PM EST
    From the first link above: "He admits the first two or three hours after the rape was reported were confusing as to whether the alleged victim was intoxicated or mentally ill. But Baker tells Eyewitness News that once a rape kit was in hand, there was no confusion." I believe the City Manager here means that there was no question that a rape had occurred, not that she was either intoxicated or mentally ill. I'll go further and say that unfortunately a goodly percentage of rapes are committed on women who are intoxicated and/or mentally ill. And as I said, what evidence the rape kit (when it is entered at trial or when chew2 gives it up) and the DNA reveals will go towards proving if there was a rape and who raped the AV. Is there anyone here who still believes that the AV is a reliable source of information? If so, what has she said that you believe?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#9)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:17:48 PM EST
    Pat posted:
    For example, one would have to question why she was not taken to the hospital or police office directly - perhaps because she couldn't communicate with Kim, or Kim did not think she had been raped, or Kim didn't want to get involved. I'm not trying to make a judgment, per se, ...I think that if I were a juror, I would not give it the weight that I would if someone simply was attacked in their sleep and they immediately called 911 for help. I would need to see something more substantive.
    I think if the accuser had been able to give Kim her address, this, (whatever it is - a rape or false report)would never have been reported.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:19:10 PM EST
    orinco, to be clear, he's only won the dem primary, he's still got to win the general election early next year...although the election, coincidentally, will take place prior his estimation of when this thing'll go to trial...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:19:25 PM EST
    Teresa
    wum, is his motive to destroy himself?
    In fairness, Nifong has invested a lot in this case. If I had gone on national TV a hundred times saying how convinced I was that there was a crime and repeatedly assured my consitutency that I would prosecute it, I'd have a motive not to admit to the world that I jumped the gun. Right or wrong, if he drops the case both sides are going to lash out at him hard. It would be a VERY tough situtation to be in.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#12)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:22:41 PM EST
    Good point suo. I guess he could have accepted the alibi evidence and said he believes there was a rape but he can't prove who did it. wum, I know that prosecutors can pursue cases for the wrong reasons. A small town prosecutor went after my younger brother for drug pushing charges. The case was thrown out of court and the judge was really, and publicly, angry with the prosecutor. I am convinced he did it because my other brother was a prominent defense attorney in this same town. I knew his motive, but I can't figure Nifong's. He would have won the election easier if he'd never started this case. A USA Today reporter said many of the voters he interviewed that day voted against Nifong because of his public stance on this case.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:24:47 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one:
    Teresa, are you sure there is no way for him to ultimately back out w/o "destroying himself."
    He could delay trial till the spring and hope the AV backs out on her own. Even if she doesn't and he has to drop the case, by that time we will have found something else to obsess over and it wouldn't be such a big deal.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#14)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:26:19 PM EST
    Pat, I have no arguments with what you've been posting. I pretty much hold with what you've said. And I think the observation about the nails is a fascinating one. Did the SANE nurse notice the AV's nails having been repainted? If the AV had repainted her fingernails after her fake nails came off, as some of the attendees and their attorneys have said, you would have to figure that time spent at the Buchanan house as time she was not being raped. +++ wumhenry, if I sat on a jury and only knew what we know in public I would have to vote to acquit. It could very well be that Nifong rode this case to victory and that after the next round of DNA tests he'll decide to throw in the towel, or may let the case limp along until it can quietly die months from now. Other the other hand there seem to be enough people in the know who believe the rape test proves a rape occurred. I would guess we won't know for sure until a trial or dismissal. +++ Orinoco, Thank you for your kind words.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:29:12 PM EST
    Teresa, re: Nifong's motivation. Someone once said something along the lines of "don't atribute to malfeasance what could better be explained by stupidity." now, I don't think Nifong is stupid, generally, but even the smartest of us do stupid things at times. Orincoco, I agree with you, just pointing out that he's not, in fact, quite elected yet.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#16)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:33:24 PM EST
    When Nifong went on his publicity offensive between march and april he had no idea the case would blow up in his face so quickly and so apparently.
    The case blew up on him on April 11. All of the bad news for him was very public before the election. You confuse me. (I thought you left? :) )

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#17)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:38:50 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one, Thank you for your kind words. There, am I caught up?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:42:24 PM EST
    Bob, you are too funny, I was just getting ready to post "Bob, what am I, chopped liver?"

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#19)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:45:21 PM EST
    More seriously I can't desert Bob alone in the foxhole.
    lol. Bob mostly believes she was raped but keeps trying to talk himself out of it. Right Bob? :) I think she could have been and I'm trying to figure out how. I think Bob and I both agree this won't make it to court and if it does there won't be any convictions.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#20)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:46:55 PM EST
    Orinoco, I think you may be right about true believers who cling to the AV's story. In fact, a rape may have occurred, it may have been three guys in the bathroom, and it may have been Seligmann and Finnerty participating. But I find the AV to be entirely unreliable. There had better be other corroborating evidence. I also find it interesting that none of the defenders of her version of events wants to tackle her state of consciousness immediately prior to her claiming that she was raped. So I'll ask again: chew2, IMHO, Peaches. Do any of you still find the alleged victim to be reliable, and if so, as to what? Or let's say you were arguing for argument's sake. Does anyone here still find the AV's version of events credible?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#21)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:53:50 PM EST
    Teresa, My belief that a rape may have occurred (I've been thinking 55-45 towards a rape having occurred) hangs on what is in the rape kit and what other evidence (DNA, witnesses, photos) Nifong has. If the second round of DNA comes back without any smoking gun, I'm down to 50-50 since the rape examination has to rely on the unreliable alleged victim's story. If the case involves the AV's credibility versus the defendants, I am very dubious. Now, excuse me, I'm going off to wrestle with myself.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:59:51 PM EST
    Bob In Pacifica
    I also find it interesting that none of the defenders of her version of events wants to tackle her state of consciousness immediately prior to her claiming that she was raped.
    I can understand why. Assuming you believe the woman was intentioanlly drugged and attacked, it's not a comfortable admission to say that the drug compromises her credibility to the extent that she should only get justice if her version of events is supported by strong DNA evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt is how our justice system protects the innocent, but it leaves a really bad taste in the mouth when it lets the guilty go free.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#23)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:04:18 PM EST
    The report was signed by Christopher Day and approved by his supervisor, J.O. Best. The time Duke Police were contacted is listed as 3:00 a.m.
    TL, is everybody aware that Day and Best are Duke police officers? The way you wrote this seems to assume everybody already knows who these cats are...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:06:31 PM EST
    The police report - part 3. According to the AV's complaint, three men sexually assaulted her for a period of 30 minutes. She also claimed that she left her make-up bag, money, cell phone, and false finger nails in the bathroom. She also claims that she was beaten, strangled, etc. The complaint is pretty straight-forward - but, once again, there are some problems. First, if she had her cell phone with her, why not call 911 when the men left. One can argue that she was too traumatized to do this - but, it is somewhat troubling. Second, there is no mention of condoms or brooms - the omission of a statement about condoms could be explained, but certainly not the broom. Once again, one would expect there to be some DNA from such a struggle - especially because oral sex is alleged - but, apparently, none appears (though perhaps there is some under her fingernails - the DNA results from the private lab are still pending.) Third, the fact that she had her make-up bag out suggests that she was doing her nails. This is what the defense has argued (I believe). It also suggests that nail polish should be found on the bathroom floor or walls and on the AV herself if a struggle occurred. I don't remember any discussion about this in any of the reports, so far. Fourth, it seems strange that no one can support her testimony. While I'm sure there is peer pressure on the members of the team, it's hard to believe that four people could occupy one of two bathrooms without someone noticing that the door was locked and that no one heard the AV cry-out. I realize she may have been choked, but it's still a little hard to think that 40 guys drinking beer for many hours would not be using the bathrooms frequently....especially if Kim was in the other bathroom. The whole part of the time-line that involves Kim and the AV coming back into the house really seems murky to me. Fifth, the recent report by the Duke Police that the Durham police didn't take her complaint seriously, and that her complaint kept changing, is obviously a problem. I realize that there can be communication difficulties, especially if one has been traumatized by rape, but it can't help the prosecution that the initial officers didn't believe her. Sixth, while it may not be admissible as evidence, her prior rape charge and history of mental illness is not helpful to the prosecution. Please, don't flame me about mental illness - I have family members who have suffered for years with depression - if it is allowed as evidence, it will affect the jury. Thus, at this point, if I were on the jury, I would still be looking for something definitive. It's possible, perhaps probably that rape occurred, but who did it? Next up - the line-up.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#25)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:12:05 PM EST
    hues, That is the problem. It's clear that the woman was intoxicated, whether from a drugged drink, something she took on her own, or both. She was acting irrationally enough at the hospital that some observing police considered that she may have been mentally ill. And she gave out varying versions of what had happened to her. But she was intoxicated. Anyone who wants to honestly weigh the alleged victim's version of events has to take that into consideration. It would be sad that rapists go free because the AV was drugged and wasn't able to give a coherent accounting, but sadder if an innocent person were convicted on false testimony.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:22:54 PM EST
    She was acting irrationally enough at the hospital that some observing police considered that she may have been mentally ill.
    I thought they took her straight from the Krogers to the psych ward? I wonder if, in reponse to her actions, they asked her if she had any history of mental illness, or something, and she said yes, and that's why they took her to the psych ward...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:24:23 PM EST
    Bob In Pacifica: I wrote this for you earlier, but now seems the time to send it. Please try to stay focussed on what you do best -- your thoughtful, methodical analysis. I enjoy your analysis, and agree with a lot of your points. But you end up taking the bait when somebody throws a hook at you and then you end up agonizing at length trying to "reason" with them. You're going to end up with a migraine. I think most of the people who have been following this post appreciate the serious effort you have put into your analysis. Some of them won't agree, some will clarify what they see as errors, and some of them will even get contrary about it. Just let it go; the rest of us are still with you. You're doing a good job. Just don't take the bait. Spit out the hook and stay focussed on what you do best.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#28)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:28:40 PM EST
    Orinoco, I've asked about a tox report a number of times and although many presume it exists, I haven't seen any evidence. This may be a clue: It seems clear from her behavior that the AV was extremely intoxicated and disoriented and at times contradicting herself. At her presentation at the hospital, it would be incumbent on medical personnel to take a blood and urine test to see if she in fact had been drugged. There is no charge in the indictments that the AV had been drugged. That suggests (although it isn't probative) that either a test wasn't taken or the results weren't consistent with her being drugged. That suggests two possibilities: the AV refused to take a test or the results either showed only alcohol, showed a drug that must have been self-administered, or showed nothing. Any of those things would benefit the defense. Her refusal to take a test would help the defense by suggesting that the AV was trying to cover up her intoxication. If she were only drunk, it would suggest that she had been drinking prior to arrival and would diminish her credibility as to events at the Buchanan house. If it showed that she were high on something she self-administered, it would also diminish her credibility. If it showed nothing, it would suggest that her erratic behavior was due to her own mental processes. None of these would be good in a case where her word was necessary to prove the case.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#29)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:28:51 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, Overall, I agree with your post about the Lacrosse team members (from the other thread), but then there's those damn lying statistics .... Kalidoggie posted:
    there were 1021 citations of Duke students by Durham police in the last 2 1/2 years, only 15 of those were lacrosse players.
    Orinoco responded:
    There are 47 men on the Lax team. Duke has 6000+ students and presumably 3000+ male students. If this accurate, the lax team actually has disproportionately fewer citations than the general population.
    dukenews.duke.edu
    By all measures that we considered, the disciplinary record of the lacrosse team was noticeably worse that the records of all other athletic teams. A greater percentage of the lacrosse players had disciplinary records than the percentage on all but one other team. A larger percentage of the lacrosse team have been involved in alcohol-related incidents than the percentage of players on all other teams. However, the nature of the incidents in which the lacrosse players were involved did not differ from the nature of incidents in which other athletes were involved.
    Finally, the Office of Judicial Affairs published an "Off-campus Summary" of incidents in the Fall of 2005. The Office also broke out those data to identify cases involving lacrosse players. The breakout shows the following:
    * 0.75 % (47/6244) Duke undergraduate students were lacrosse players in the Fall of 2005. * 4% of the students listed in the chart were LAX players (8/201) * 4% of the adjudicated students were LAX players (8/188) * 4% of the administrative resolution cases were LAX players (8/187) * 4% of total charges-responsible were LAX players (5/126) * 2% of total alcohol policy cases were LAX players (2/187) * 2% of underage possession cases were LAX players (2/92) * 25% of the disorderly conduct cases were LAX players (1/4) * 40% of the Other cases were Lax players (2/5) * 50% of the noise ordinance cases were LAX players (1/2) * 33% of the open container cases were LAX players (1//3) *4% of sanctions involved LAX players (6/138) * 5% of warnings involved LAX players (5/106) * 6% of written assignments involved LAX players (1/17) * 5% of the Total charges-not responsible were LAX players * 5% of cases involving alcohol policy were LAX players (4/75) * 2% of alcohol-underage cases were LAX players (4/75) * 21% of alcohol-unsafe behavior were LAX players (3/14)


    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:29:04 PM EST
    The line-up - Part 4 Based on what I have read about the line-up, the AV positively identified two people, and was 90 percent sure about the third. Evidently there is some discussion of a mustache, or the lack of one for this person. Also, interesting, the 90% ID is for the first attacker. First, in my view, the DA made a serious error in the line-up (perhaps intentionally - since he wanted to indict someone because if he lost to Freda Black, she would have "asked" him to resign - just as he did to her). As I understand it, the guidelines for line-ups suggest five "fillers" that resemble the suspect. And, since there were about 40 suspects at that time, there should have been something like 240 pictures to choose from. Further, an independent person, with no knowledge of the suspects, is supposed to run the line-up and the AV is supposed to be told that the assailant(s) may or may not be in the line-up. Thus, it's possible that the IDs may be thrown out - certainly if the trial judge allows it, it will be the subject of an appeal. Second, the line-up occurred after a substantial period of time after the incident. I'm sure that are many posts that have discussed the problems with witness ID, especially over time and across gender and race. Third, the explanations about the AVs behavior and state of mind immediately after the alleged rape, now make it more difficult to support a good ID. Thus, if one believes a rape occurred, it still may be difficult to identify the true assailant(s) and obtain a conviction. Fourth, the AV claims that the first person to attack her is the 90% ID person. This causes a problem for the prosecution with the Seligman indictment. If she spent some time doing her nails, and if the first attacker wasn't Seligman, then the time line gets more and more difficult to believe. I realize that all of this could happen in 10 minutes .....but then what....if the door is unlocked, wouldn't someone have tried to enter the bathroom and found the AV? I understand the "line of silence" notion, but is it reasonable to assume that no one found her? And if the rape did take 30 minutes, that leaves Seligman out of the mix. Given the problems that I have identifying faces in my classroom (when I see students on campus I'm not always sure if they are or aren't in my class - I have large classes), I can only imagine the difficulty I would have if I had been drugged/intoxicated and assaulted, and then asked to identify someone of a different race from a set of pictures after a three-week period - and be 100 percent sure! If I were a juror, I would tend to question the ID - the DA really did a disservice to the AV and the public with the screw-up on the line-up. I fear for my niece, in part because of this screw-up.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:34:56 PM EST
    imho, don't you know, it's all because "the man" had it in for the LAX team.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#32)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:36:28 PM EST
    Thank you SLOphoto. I understand that there are a lot of strong feelings about this case. I personally don't like having my integrity impugned. I hope I haven't spent too much time trying to defend myself. When there was a sudden outburst of impugninity today I think it was pretty clear there was some desperation on the part of people clinging to the AV's version of events. It seems that has passed and we can get back to discussing the case. chew2, I forgive you, again.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#33)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:38:51 PM EST
    great analysis Pat. Where do you see that the first attacker is the 90% guy? Based on the descriptions of Seligmann's and Finnerty's alleged acts, the third person would have been holding her down by the arms and neck. I assume he would be behind her also.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#34)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:42:35 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Now, excuse me, I'm going off to wrestle with myself.
    hahaha... good, we'll still be here when you've pinned yourself.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:44:26 PM EST
    No offense on the statistics, but if 95% of all crimes committed on campus were done by the lacrosse team, it still has zero value in determining if the AV was raped at Buchanan by the accused.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    The time-line (last post - I promise) The defense seems to have time-dated pictures (yes, I know they can be changed) that suggest that the dancing began at about 12:00 and ended after a few minutes. Then there is a period of time when no pictures exist (per the defense) and then there are pictures of the AV leaving the house - apparently falling on the stairs, and then being helped into the car. The time-stamp on the last picture appears to be close to the time when Kim and the AV were leaving (Kim's calls occur quickly after the last time-stamped photo). Further, the cabbie and the neighbor and the police appear to roughly agree on the time that the party ended. The defense claims that Seligman was busy calling (texting?) his girlfriend and another person, and then the cab company. The cabbie IDs Seligman and the ATM photo confirms his presence at the bank, and his Duke ID card confirms his arrival at his dorm. As some on this board have stated, it seems unlikely that Seligman had the time to commit this crime - especially if the party lasted until 12:40 or so. It's clear he wasn't there for the last 25 minutes. And while the DA may not agree with the timeline, what proof does he have that his timeline is correct? Kim can't account for the AV - The AV can't attest to the time - Thus, it is just really hard for me to believe that Seligman did it. While we haven't heard much from Finnerty's attorney, I understand that he has witnesses that place him at a restaurant while the dancing occurred. If this alibi holds up, then there is essentially very little (if any) time when both Finnerty and Seligman were at the party. If this is true - then in the absence of DNA evidence, it would be hard to convict either party. Thus, I think if I were on the jury WITH THE EVIDENCE WE KNOW ABOUT (or think we know about), there would be reasonable doubt - at least for Seligman and thus, for Finnerty as well. I'm not happy about that....it's really possible that a rape occurred. But, unless there is a corroborating witness (which has been hinted at - though, I suspect that this is a ploy by the DA - the "prisoners' dilemma problem") or some substantial DNA, I would have to acquit at this point. It is interesting to note that the Captains didn't use their real names in setting up the "date" from the escort service - and that the players were using false names or codes - while this can be read two ways, it does suggest that they knew that having the dancers at the house was wrong - and they didn't want to be associated with it. Thus, if having the dancers over to the house is wrong, one would assume that they certainly knew that drugging and raping someone was wrong - of course, one could argue that this was part of a plan....thought it seems like a stupid plan to rape someone in your own house. I'm done venting.....my solution is that everyone involved, the players, the dancers, and the DA spend a month in jail for plain stupidity.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:57:23 PM EST
    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the lax team was sort of a noisy frat in a not-entirely frat neighborhood at least until recently, and that the way the police "handle" this in Durham is to start dogging them for petty sh*t -- like open containers while standing outside on the lawn, urinating in the bushes, loud music, misc. technical zoning-specific violations and so forth. I KNOW that's how the police handled it in two college towns that I have lived in myself whenever the neighbors started complaining too much. What I'm saying is that if the lax players look like they committed quite a few infractions, I'm not surprised. If they are known for being rowdy in their neighborhood, then they may well have been singled out and targeted to receive them in the first place.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#39)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:00:12 PM EST
    lineuplink Thanks Pat, here's your link. Has your niece at Duke given you her opinion?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#40)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:06:38 PM EST
    Nifong's motives: After the SBI DNA results were released, many of the TV Talking Heads and posters on various blogs and boards predicted Nifong would ride the case out until the primary then, quietly as possible, back out. Instead, he came out swinging. If you listen to the attorneys who actually know him - have tried cases with and against him, they have been saying when he believes in a case he will not back down. He is a fighter. Short of a recantation, I think Nifong will follow this thing to its finish, whatever that might be. Do the commenters that keep intimating that Nifong is trying to delay this case realize if there is a delay it will be due to defense motions. The defense can prevent Nifong from delaying the trial.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:08:48 PM EST
    Duke undergraduate enrollment = 6248 Men = 51.6% = 3224 15/47 = 31.9% 1021/3224 = 31.6%

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#42)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:18:03 PM EST
    Do the commenters that keep intimating that Nifong is trying to delay this case realize if there is a delay it will be due to defense motions. The defense can prevent Nifong from delaying the trial.
    imho, was this in reference to my comment?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#43)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:19:15 PM EST
    to PB Were all 1021 Durham/Duke students citations committed by male undergrads?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#44)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:22:44 PM EST
    Suprise suprise. There's a bit of animosity between the city PD and the private university PD. Private university PD try to sweep this under the rug. File a report that nothing happened and misrepsent the facts. The gal was under the influence. The Duke PD report was filed in the early morning hours before Durham PD took a statement. The Duke PD was railed in the subsequent independant investigation for not investigating futher.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:29:43 PM EST
    IMHO: Either you are intentionally trying to decieve and lie to the blog, or you misread my comments. First, I informed of the academic and community service accolades of the lacrosse team, which are quite astounding even when compared to the entire Duke student body. You respond with a comparison of disciplinary issues between the lacrosse team and other sports. Where is the falsity in my statistics? None. By showing a fuller picture of the lacrosse team, I have pointed out what is beyond the blinders so many people wear in judging the lacrosse team. A fuller picture that shows a team comprised of young men, who albeit party hard, are decent, hard-working, studious, caring and normal college kids. Second, I compared the off-campus discipline problems of the lacrosse players to the student body for 2 1/2 years. Yet, you accuse me of deception by comparing my 2 1/2 years (or 5 semensters) of statistics with your single, fall semester of 2005. Wrong. While this is not a lie per se, it is clearly a deceptive comparison on your part. It is even more deceptive by proffering the 2005 fall sememster as gospel and not at least including a spring semester. Lacrosse is a spring sport. In the fall they practice only for 6 weeks in Sept. and part of Oct., 3 times a week for "fall ball". Furthermore, historically, there much, much more partying in general at Duke (and most colleges) in the fall during fall rush and football tailgates. My statistics are accurate and honest. Most can be found on the Duke website. I seek only to portray an accurate picture of the lacrosse team. Do you?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:39:24 PM EST
    Teresa: I spoke with my sister and brother-in-law about it. They said she was angry at the players for being so stupid - she knows some of the players casually - but doesn't know any of them well. She's also angry because the campus was becoming a zoo - with all of the media and protestors - she felt somewhat afraid of the atmosphere, especially because she competes for Duke and thus, has to answer questions about it all the time. I guess there are only so many times you can say, "I don't know" before you just get fed-up with the whole thing.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#47)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:44:11 PM EST
    It never quite made much sense to me that Kim called at 12:53 and the cops showed up two minutes later.
    Orinoco, I think 911 confirmed the time of the call. Bissey did state that the police arrived two or three minutes later. I'll check and see if I can find that again.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:49:05 PM EST
    Ding, You wrote:
    Were all 1021 Durham/Duke students citations committed by male undergrads?
    Don't know. I was just showing what Orinoco's logic would yield if he actually made an effort to find out what "+" meant. I think if you wanted to evaluate whether the lacrosse players qualify as better or worse people than your average student this wouldn't be a good way of going about it. From my perspective, close to 100% of the lacrosse players are currently actively obstructing justice, quite a bit bigger percentage (I'm guessing) than among the broader Duke population. But I'm too lazy to do the research to prove it.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#49)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:53:36 PM EST
    Police sources, however, told WRAL that before all the facts were even known, a Durham officer was telling other officers in the department that the alleged rape was a fake rape.
    www.wral.com I'll bet this officer's going to be in trouble. If the medical evidence says it's most likely, or is a rape, they didn't do the right thing here. I guess because she's "not important" per the Duke report. The article also says
    Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said on Tuesday that his office has had problems in the past with the insensitivity of a responding officer investigating a rape case, and that it was not uncommon.
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#50)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:56:13 PM EST
    Pat, I'm sure it is rough on your niece and the other students. I feel bad for Duke because this could probably have happened anywhere.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:07:18 PM EST
    Teresa: You're absolutely right. In fact, two female faculty members and I were invited to a fraternity dinner to honor their favorite professors. While we were being shown around the house, our student said that the best experience he had at school was the night when the frat invited women wrestlers to wrestler in jello in the basement of the house. We all thought that the comment gave us way more information than we wanted to know. I also spoke with an Associate Dean the other day. He has a friend whose son is hired to be a stripper for sororities! I didn't ask how far the stripping went. What is true is that the problem of underage drinking is a very difficult problem on campus. A majority of students are old enough to drink (includes grads students), yet the underage minority live with the older students and try to emulate them (pledging fraternities and sororities). Thus, the university is in an almost impossible situation - the administrators just hope to keep the lid on it. To further complicate matters, the FERPA law makes communication about students among faculty and administrators very difficult. Thus, it's not like we can be alerted to watch out for certain people. I'm sure that the faculty will be hearing from the President and Provost about certain changes in procedures, once the semester ends.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#52)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:09:31 PM EST
    PB
    From my perspective, close to 100% of the lacrosse players are currently actively obstructing justice, quite a bit bigger percentage (I'm guessing) than among the broader Duke population. But I'm too lazy to do the research to prove it.
    Classic post - too funny. Although I'd put it closer to 50%.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#53)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:10:58 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one, No, I wasn't referring to your post about the General Election. I was referring to this post and other commenters in previous threads: noname posted,
    He could delay trial till the spring and hope the AV backs out on her own. Even if she doesn't and he has to drop the case, by that time we will have found something else to obsess over and it wouldn't be such a big deal.
    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:11:44 PM EST
    From my perspective, close to 100% of the lacrosse players are currently actively obstructing justice
    By staying silent? Sounds like a pretty passive way to obstruct justice to me. Unless they're under oath, there's no legal obligation for them to talk to the police, especially when their defense theory involves a prosecutorial witch hunt. I haven't made up my mind on this case one way or another, but if I was a lawyer for one of those kids I'd tell them not to say a word about anything to anyone. Why? Because all it takes is one change in your story to call your credibility into question. What time did the stripper leave? Ask 20 people that night and they'll probably give a bunch of different answers (12:30, 12:35, 12:40) - but if a defendant later sees the timestamped photo and testifies 12:33 at trial (or whatever the time was) a prosecutor can now accuse them of changing their story: prosecutor - "You just testified that the AV left at 12:33. But two days after the crime, didn't you tell police that she left at 12:40?" kid - "I might of, I don't remember." prosecutor - "so you don't remember what you told the police, in the middle of the day, perfectly sober during a major investigation 3 days after the crime. But you do remember the exact time this woman left the party over a year ago on a night when you'd been drinking for 3 three hours?" kid - "uh . . [looks at lawyer for help] I mean, I remember, but not all the details." prosecutor - "but you still testified about those details under oath, didn't you?" ect.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#55)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:14:59 PM EST
    I've had a few out of character alcohol incidents myself Pat (nothing illegal just stupid). I know it's a huge problem. It was when I was in college too. azbb, you don't think 50% are talking do you?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#56)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:18:19 PM EST
    azbballfan posted:
    Classic post - too funny. Although I'd put it closer to 50%.
    I agree it was funny, but your %50 figure? Are you figuring in the Duke's Women's Lacrosse team or have I missed some breaking news: DUKE LACROSSE PLAYER COMES OUT OF SHADOWS TO SPEAK OUT AND BRINGS 22 OF HIS TEAMMATES WITH HIM

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#57)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:25:39 PM EST
    Oops, sorry for the confusion regarding the 50% post. The reports indicate that at the time of the incident, only about half of the team was present. Asking the players not to answer questions because they might not accurately remember facts isn't a good answer. All you say is: "I'm not sure, but I think it was" and you're off the hook. All of the interviews are recorded and written up to allow for scrutiny of the interviewer's tactics. Telling your clients not to cooperate just amounts to trying to justify sending them a bigger bill.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#58)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:26:32 PM EST
    Bob In Pacifica posted:
    Orinoco, I think you may be right about true believers who cling to the AV's story.
    Do you two have a list of these commenters you have designated the true believers?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:30:34 PM EST
    Hues, You wrote:
    By staying silent? Sounds like a pretty passive way to obstruct justice to me. Unless they're under oath, there's no legal obligation for them to talk to the police, especially when their defense theory involves a prosecutorial witch hunt.
    The difference between taking the fifth and taking the first is that the fifth obstructs justice while the first doesn't. I don't fault people for taking the fifth. It's their right. But I do fault them for obstructing justice. If you want to be considered innocent, take the first. But if you're concerned with being "not guilty," by all means take the fifth. That's what it's for.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#60)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:33:30 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    I personally don't like having my integrity impugned.
    Bob, You might want to take that up with your wrestling opponent. ;)

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#61)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:44:41 PM EST
    I KNOW that's how the police handled it in two college towns that I have lived in myself whenever the neighbors started complaining too much. What I'm saying is that if the lax players look like they committed quite a few infractions, I'm not surprised. If they are known for being rowdy in their neighborhood, then they may well have been singled out and targeted to receive them in the first place.
    The police were responding to the neighbors mounting complaints, but I read that the neighbors to the two lacrosse houses in Trinity Park said the lacrosse players were not the worse offenders in the neighborhood (the real frat boys were) and when not drinking, the lacrosse players were respectful and genuinely remorseful for their offensive behavior.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:45:04 PM EST
    Telling your clients not to cooperate just amounts to trying to justify sending them a bigger bill.
    Not at all. None of the duke lawyers are doing this for the money. Any defense attorney in North Carolina, who could afford to, would represent them for free. It's the sort of high profile interesting case that most lawyers can only dream of. Telling a suspect (and they're all still suspects, guilty or innocent) to keep quiet is just plain old solid advice. Take your time to get your story straight before you go on the record. Wait and see whether you're indicted or if evidence comes out that casts doubt on your recollection. From a defendant's standpoint, and as suspects they're all potential defendants, going on the record with police can only hurt.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:45:06 PM EST
    Telling your clients not to cooperate just amounts to trying to justify sending them a bigger bill.
    Not at all. None of the duke lawyers are doing this for the money. Any defense attorney in North Carolina, who could afford to, would represent them for free. It's the sort of high profile interesting case that most lawyers can only dream of. Telling a suspect (and they're all still suspects, guilty or innocent) to keep quiet is just plain old solid advice. Take your time to get your story straight before you go on the record. Wait and see whether you're indicted or if evidence comes out that casts doubt on your recollection. From a defendant's standpoint, and as suspects they're all potential defendants, going on the record with police can only hurt.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:54:47 PM EST
    The difference between taking the fifth and taking the first is that the fifth obstructs justice while the first doesn't. I don't fault people for taking the fifth. It's their right. But I do fault them for obstructing justice.
    This is fair, but obstructing justice in the post I was replying to was presented as the crime of obstructing justice. Staying silent in these circumstances isn't a crime and shouldn't be. If no rape happened, are the other team members obstructing justice by refusing to help the prosecutor convict the defendants? I don't think they are. I can guarantee that even if every single player on the team sat down with the police and told their story, claiming that nothing happened, the prosecutor wouldn't drop the charges. But the prosecutor would use those statements to try and discredit anything in the defendants' story that differed from those accounts.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#65)
    by james on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:03:26 PM EST
    TL, I have a question re: Nifong as potential witness. Nifong has claimed that he 'took over' the police chief's responsibilities when his mother fell ill and he had to attend to her. That, says Nifong, is why he was so involved in the investigation. This is in the same story as the lineup one - it is his 'excuse' as to why he was so involved. If he were to become a potential witness due to his involvement in a suspect lineup (I am saying this assuming it stands but defence can question it) would his ability to prosecute be impacted? He has claimed that he was, in effect, the acting police chief. Duke is falling all over itself to minimize the impact. They don't need to - they did take it as seriously as they needed to at the time. This '20' person reference is interesting - wonder why that didn't get inserted into the police report. Oh yes, we have the 3 in 1 acting police chief, DA, and candidate. -To an above poster: You are incorrect, Nifong will become the new DA simply by winning the primary. There isn't a (credible) republican challenger.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#66)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:07:28 PM EST
    This '20' person reference is interesting - wonder why that didn't get inserted into the police report.
    Have we seen a Durham police report or statement from the accuser?

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#67)
    by james on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:13:29 PM EST
    Pat, Many of the Lacrosse players look strikingly similar. I would say, though, that if the AV was not attacked her ID might have had more to do with who was the most obnoxious. Finerty looks good for something like that, same deal with Seligman. For all of you who don't live in the Raleigh/Durham area, the news and observer had a 'twist' on their rape victim identification policy today. Specifically they changed the wording from 'it is the policy of...to not reveal the identity of [an AV in rape cases]' to '....GENERALY the policy..." That sort of got me when I was reading the N & O this morning. It was after referencing the dad (who has very little credibility anyway) but clearly applied to the AV. It appears as if the N & O may, in fact, reveal her identity at some point. I've been in contact with a few of their reporters and that's the general idea, at least as far as the father is concerned. They have concerns about giving the father rein to tell whatever stories he wishes without being actually responsible for his quotes. (They believe that if they were to identify him he might stop some of his more unbelievable remarks). Interestingly, the N&O seems to be less and less on the side of the AV (they were strongly AV to begin with). Now they are essentially neutral. The story on the captain sentenced today was actually pretty balanced, mentioned that the 'only reason' he was there is because he cooperated with Nifong... I go to Wake (Winston-Salem, NC) and am not anywhere near as well off as most of those lacrosse kids. Neither are most Duke students, which is something people seem to forget - many are from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#68)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:15:13 PM EST
    hob:
    Take your time to get your story straight before you go on the record. Wait and see whether you're indicted or if evidence comes out that casts doubt on your recollection.
    Assuming that something did in fact happen. True, the lacrosse players have their right not to cooperate with an investigation until charges are made and they are compelled through the courts. A common tactic used by known criminals and terrorists. I guess this puts these students in a new rarified class of elite.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:18:10 PM EST
    James
    I go to Wake
    c/o 2001 here. I have a definite love hate relationship with the school.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:29:24 PM EST
    Assuming that something did in fact happen. True, the lacrosse players have their right not to cooperate with an investigation until charges are made
    I actually think it's more important if nothing happened. If nothing happened they're caught in a witchunt and any of them could be accused. If something did happe and they know about it, cooperating with the authorities might be the best way for an innocent player to avoid being charged as a result of mistaken identity. But look what happened to one of the guys that did cooperate? He just had an old open container violation brought back up. If he had stayed silent his lawyer could have offered his cooperation to get that charge reduced (compare with Kim - who traded her cooperation for a favorable reccomendation to the court). A suspect should stay silent for the same reason Nifong shouldn't have gone on TV proclaiming that DNA testing would exonerate the innocent. It can bite you!

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#71)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:34:25 PM EST
    Orinoco posted:
    The lax players wouldn't talk under this much pressure. Not even Kim could testify for the av, when she's in the same house. Those two facts were pretty compelling to me even without the DNA.
    [I assume you mean they wouldn't NOT talk if they knew there had bee a sexual assault? - if not, nevermind..] This argument is used a lot here. Are you talking about the pressure to do the right thing? In my opinion, they have already demonstrated they are not responding to that societal pressure. Are you talking about the pressure to not say something that could get their friends locked up for 15 years? That could be a reason for their silence if they believed anyone at the party assaulted the woman or not. Some commenters think they would only remain silent if they knew nothing happened, but couldn't they also feel pressure to keep silent if they knew something happened, but didn't believe it was the crime for which their friends could be convicted? How about if some of the players saw three guys drag her into the bathroom, but believe the guys when they say nothing happened - they just scared her, or just took the money back? They may feel their testimony could get their friends wrongly convicted and thus they feel the pressure to remain silent. Does anyone that "clings to the belief" the players would not cover up a rape, agree this scenario is plasible? The part about Kim: The defense attorneys have conceded that the accuser was alone in the house for about ten minutes. Kim could have been in the yard or in her car when the accuser was being attacked.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#72)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:46:45 PM EST
    Wonder why the Duke police report released today said that Durham police said the charges shouldn't exceed "simple misdemeanor assault"? Wonder why they (he) didn't believe at first that she was raped but that she was assaulted? Rita's show read the paragraph about the Duke police observation of the accuser at the hospital. Maybe Dan Abrams was watching.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#73)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:27:55 PM EST
    IMHO, regarding "true believers," I do think that some people have seized on this case and have seen the individuals involved as icons for some greater truth. Someone can believe in feminism, can hold that women are raped and then not believed by authorities all too often (I think that). It may turn out that the Durham cop should have shown more sensitivity to the AV, for example. But at a certain point the beliefs we hold generally have to give way to the specifics of the case. To presume that this is some reenactment of slaveowners raping slaves, for example, puts one in a position of being unable to look at the evidence of this case with honesty. We all do this. We all bring our personal beliefs of life and society generally to specific things. That is human, but it's not the best way to weigh evidence. There is a presumption stated by some that because of their wealth and privilege that these men are very capable of raping the dancer. That's a class analysis that may hold generally but doesn't allow for the individuals involved. I think the alleged victim is an unreliable witness, and I have stated my reasons. That doesn't preclude that she was raped, but I think that relying on the AV's version of events is probably not the best way to figure out what happened. Most of us say things here without complete explication. Some people come up with partially formed ideas about this piece or evidence or that statement. I know that I do. What should happen here is a give and take where people feel free to offer their opinions. If someone disagrees, or thinks something was misstated or misrepresented, sure, that person should speak up. I just think that attacking each other defeats the purpose of a forum for discussion. If I propose something and it's off-the-wall, no matter how much I flail trying to make it float it will sink. Let it sink without the personal attacks.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#74)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:44:01 PM EST
    Orinoco, I was going to comment on that but then decided to let it pass. So far, everyone who was there is a potential "Mister 90%." When I was a shop steward and union officer, I always advised my clients to be quiet until it was appropriate, which usually didn't mean when a couple of inspectors were ganging up on you while you were without representation. I've seen way too many innocent people unnecessarily entangle themselves by being "cooperative." I've seen a couple of people actually confess to things other than what was being investigated because they wanted to cooperate. In this case I don't think that Nifong has done anything that would engender trust if I were an attendee at that party. If someone were adding up things that Nifong did wrong, one would be his hostility against everyone at that party. He lost any hope of cooperation with his public pronouncements. Actually, because no one has come forward suggests to me that most people were unaware of any rape happening, if a rape did occur. It's easy not to tell Nifong anything if nothing happened. You're not hiding anything. It could be that everyone there knew a rape happened. There have been larger conspiracies. But it could also be that nothing of the sort happened. Does anyone think that Nifong wants someone to come into his office and tell him that he didn't see anything? To what purpose? Nifong wouldn't believe him anyway.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#75)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:48:24 PM EST
    I think the alleged victim is an unreliable witness, and I have stated my reasons. That doesn't preclude that she was raped, but I think that relying on the AV's version of events is probably not the best way to figure out what happened.
    Bob, except for the 20 assaulted her revised to 3, we don't really know her version. We know what her family says but not her. I hope we get to read the full police statement someday. Based on the "she's not important" in the Duke report, it makes me wonder how seriously they did take her. Then, after her exam at the hospital, they started taking her very seriously. Why? I hope after May 15 that someone will leak some of that report (police and medical).

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#76)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:49:20 PM EST
    Teresa, My guess that the reason the officer may have thought that the AV was assaulted was because of the bruising she incurred. My guess why he didn't believe that she was raped was because she kept changing her story. The bruises were believable, she wasn't. That was presumably before the rape examination. Goodnight, moon.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#77)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:52:45 PM EST
    goodnight Bob

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#78)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:54:30 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    IMHO:
    Either you are intentionally trying to decieve and lie to the blog, or you misread my comments.
    First, I informed of the academic and community service accolades of the lacrosse team, which are quite astounding even when compared to the entire Duke student body. You respond with a comparison of disciplinary issues between the lacrosse team and other sports. Where is the falsity in my statistics? None. By showing a fuller picture of the lacrosse team, I have pointed out what is beyond the blinders so many people wear in judging the lacrosse team. A fuller picture that shows a team comprised of young men, who albeit party hard, are decent, hard-working, studious, caring and normal college kids.
    Kali, doggie, what is it with you and me? Everyone else here seems to like me just fine...Oh....wait...oh yeah... bummer... Kali, You neglected to accept my olive branch:
    Kalidoggie,
    Overall, I agree with your post about the Lacrosse team members (from the other thread), but then there's those damn lying statistics ...
    I meant it. Before posting, I even deleted my snarky comment: The community service hours are impressive, I'll bet most of them are not even court ordered. Bad joke aside, the community service is impressive, as are their excellent grades. I do not think the team is comprised of hooligans. The statistics you used are for the past two and a half years. I am talking about this team, not the lacrosse culture at Duke. Half of the curent team are freshman and sophomores. They are under represented using your numbers:
    there were 1021 citations of Duke students by Durham police in the last 2 1/2 years, only 15 of those were lacrosse players.
    Two of those two and a half years do not include any of the current freshmen, one year does not include any of the current sophomores. Orinoco's proclamation that "the lax team actually has disproportionately fewer citations than the general population" is not true for the most recent statistics for this team. So the Fall semester is the party semester? Is this just for the lacrosse team or for everyone? What is unfair about that? When I said "but then there's those damn lying statistics ..." I didn't mean just your statistics, I meant mine too. Just how silly is this?: * 50% of the noise ordinance cases were LAX players (1/2) 50% of the noise complaints caused by LAX players! Think how much quieter it would be if they were disbanded - one less loud party. I agree with the committee's recomendation that the LAX team resume play next year. I wish this season hadn't gone down the toilet. I think the recomendation should stand even if a player is convicted of a sexual assault (which I consider unlikely from what we know about this case so far). I think it is a shame that so much damage has come from the unfortunate decision on the players part to host or attend this party and the unfortunate decision on the dancers' part to just not turn around once they realized it was not a party of five for whom they would be dancing. It would have taken so little for all of this to have been avoided.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#79)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:03:11 PM EST
    Teresa, You're right about the victim's statement not being known. We'll know what the alleged victim's statement is at some later point. We do know that she claimed she was raped by three men in a bathroom and that two of them were Finnerty and Seligmann. We know she said she was assaulted for thirty minutes. I don't believe that she is a reliable witness by what can be inferred, not the least being her intoxication that night and what actions of hers we have heard about. I am always willing to be corrected. Until I am, that's my belief. However, I am interested in understanding why someone would find her credible. There may be something I've overlooked or discounted. Do you have a reason to think that the AV is crebible? Why or why not? In the meantime, goodnight.

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#80)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:07:04 PM EST
    Baker is standing behind the city's police officers, saying the Duke officer who wrote the report got secondhand information. "He did not have a conversation with our officer," Baker said in a telephone interview Tuesday night. "He did not have a conversation with the victim. He prepared his report based on conversations he overheard and the context of that conversation."
    New statement tonight by Durham City Manager. Maybe the Duke police overheard about the 20 guys in the wrong context. abclocal.go.c

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:08:27 PM EST
    I'll answer you tomorrow then. Goodnight Bob :)

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#82)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:35:51 PM EST
    The Herald Sun: Duke based initial gang-rape reactions on campus officer who eavesdropped on call
    Day also said the woman "was claiming that she was raped by approximately 20 white males," a fact the Bowen-Chambers report mentioned prominently and that prompted lawyers representing members of the lacrosse team to launch a fresh round of attacks on the accuser's credibility.
    Baker [City Manager Patrick Baker ], however, said he didn't know where Day had gotten that information.
    "I'm not aware of that at all," Baker said when asked if the woman had told Durham police she'd been attacked by 20 men. "I've met with just about everybody involved in the case, and it hasn't been brought to my attention. I don't know where that's coming from."
    This case keeps getting curiouser and curiouser...

    Re: Durham City Manager Defends Early Police Actio (none / 0) (#83)