Does anyone else detect a bit of doublespeak here?

"My guess is that there are many questions that many people are asking that they would not be asking if they saw the results," Nifong said.

I'm wondering, did they test the broom handle for her DNA or for fecal matter? If they did, and it came back positive, those results might not have been turned over to the defense.

COSBY: I believe you're someone who maybe has something more than the public knows. NIFONG: Well, one would hope that I would not be proceeding without some evidence. And there is a lot more evidence in the hands of the defense attorneys right now than most of the public knows about. And I expect that soon there will be more such evidence. COSBY: Is it safe to say just in general you have a lot more than we know about? NIFONG: I think that's probably pretty safe to say.

The accuser's family members telling me tonight [May 4, 2006] that Mike Nifong told them good news is about to come out in this case for the prosecution, good news for the accuser relating -- according to the family -- to DNA. We have not been able to substantiate that through Nifong himself. This is coming from the family.

The DNA results are not due until May 15th, but they are telling me that Nifong is telling them we're going to get good news for the prosecution on the DNA tests.

Are the players' families spiteful enough to try [getting Nifong disbarred]? Are their lawyers spiteful enough to try it, especially those who practice in NC? those who practice in Durham?

If the DNA is from hair I don't know how compelling that would be in the absence of DNA from any bodily fluids or tissues. After all, no one would dispute that the defendants had never been to the house and the photos of AV showed that she had sufficient opportunity to pick up hair from the rug, from bumping into things, etc.

To everyone, generally: If FOX is such an unreliable source of news in everything else, why do I constantly see references to it here for this story? Granted, they did a bang up job on the missing white girl in Aruba, but otherwise why would anyone trust them?

Anytime anyone says anything on FOX I look in the opposite direction for truth.

Nifong's infractions: -46/47 White DNA; smacks of civil rights violation -highly irregular photo id process -70 interviews including pep rally at NCCU -4/14 police invasion of student dorms in attempt to circumvent consel.

46/47 White DNA; smacks of civil rights violation

-highly irregular photo id process

70 interviews including pep rally at NCCU

-4/14 police invasion of student dorms in attempt to circumvent consel.

The hair evidence, if they exist (big IF), will only help win the case if it is from one of four people--Seliegeman, Finnerty and the two 90 percenters.

It would be easy to infer that she's framing these guys for money and planted the hair on her. She was in the bathroom and male hair are easy to come by in that space.

So much sleeze in one DA of one case shook my confidence in the entire judicial system. There might be worse DAs in the country, but few have f---ed with someone this rich and "previleged". Who's f---ed with Bob Bennett and come away in one piece?

So much sleeze in one DA of one case shook my confidence in the entire judicial system. There might be worse DAs in the country, but few have f---ed with someone this rich and "previleged". Who's f---ed with Bob Bennett and come away in one piece?

I think we can all agree that Nifong conducted this case in an unusual manner with highly irregular pracitices. There's not much question that he made many (inexplicable) mistakes during the investigation and indictment.

What if the 2nd round still turns up inconclusive, after the indictment?

What if the 2nd round turns up three people other than the two indicted, after the indictment?

If he knew by 4/11 he had a good chance of some solid DNA evidence, why would he rush to indict before the 2nd round, before more concrete evidence? Other than a small primary, I cannot think of a reason.

and Nifong will certainly retry the case endlessly if the jury isn't unanimous

With the case as is, I think the players would be smart to eschew a jury. Jurors can be remarkably dumb creatures, cf. the Simpson jury. Very few jurists are that dumb (hopefully).

I wonder is there any poster who is ready to change their position about player's innocense if some kind of DNA evidense surface. I am seeing from these posts that some posters getting ready to keep their position on defending players as aggresively even DNA tests come positive.

Nifong must have had a lot of DNA (semen?) to be so sure of himself before the fist batch of DNA testing/ID's.

The results, the lawyers said, show that investigators collected no genetic material of any kind from the woman. "There was no DNA found in or on her that would indicate that she recently had any sex," Cheshire said.

Investigators found no DNA under the woman's remaining fingernails, or on those taken during the search of the rental house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., which Duke recently bought in an attempt to quell student parties.

They also found no DNA on the woman's clothing or belongings, players' attorneys said. The tests found DNA matches to two players, from a towel outside the bathroom and on another object, Cheshire said.

One sample was from a player's semen and another was a different type of DNA, Cheshire said. He said that was to be expected in a bathroom shared by the three men who lived in the house.

CHESIRE: There was DNA found of two of the boys on a towel and on the floor.

Many rape cases are solved by the DNA evidence. But in this investigation, the tests have not provided the airtight answers investigators might have hoped for. Meadows says that could change in the future. "There may be DNA. In this first round of tests, they did find DNA under the woman's fingernails. But the tests, as to whose it was, were inconclusive," she said." There are new tests that are expected back," she adds, and these tests could lead to other conclusions.

I would also think unless the semen belong to the four men already id'ed, the real perps have a good chance to get off because of the botched ID.

It would leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

"The accuser made an erroneous photo ID" has to add to reasonable doubt, no?

If no dna match is made in the 2nd round of tests, would people change their minds who currently think the players are guilty?

SLOphoto

ABRAMS: All right, here's the potential evidence that we've put together, Woody Vann, as to possible evidence he could have. I guess they could have a cooperating team member, which would be huge. Now, the hair or other DNA evidence, I've actually seen the DNA report and there is reference to inconclusive DNA tests. There's also reference to possible mixtures of DNA and--that remained inconclusive.

Anyone know how long it would take a date rape drug to kick in?

I don't think any semen was found "in or on" the accuser, but if this article is correct, the fingernail DNA story is wrong.*

No semen, no fingernail residue on the AV. So what residue material on the AV or her clothes were the first DNA tests supposed to match? Saliva? Facial Hair? Pubic Hair? ??? There had to be some genetic material on the AV or no point in testing for a match with the team members.

If the two were toking up in Roberts' car, that would explain the gap between 11:30 and 11:50. Or the AV's 11:30 may have been 11:45.

This is a small 5 X 8 foot room with a toilet, tub and sink in it.

A bit conceited, no?

If no dna match is made in the 2nd round of tests, would people change their minds who currently think the players are guilty?

That's an interesting quote imho, but I think they are testing hair AND putting the first samples through additional testing. With inconclusive results I can't imagine that they wouldn't.

Cheshire gave the newspaper this account of what the photographs show:

The first sequence of photographs, taken over three and a half minutes, shows two women dancing in negligees in the living room of the Durham off-campus house rented by the team's three captains.

And having them stand outside from around 11:50 to midnight, as Bissey said, doesn't make sense either, unless it was so noisy inside that no one heard them knocking.

I mean is the third attacker relying on his buddy to convince her not to just bight it right off? Out of all this, that is the part I find least convincing.

Well that's interesting imho. Doesn't the search warrant say master bedroom? As least other accounts I have read say that.

I practiced positions (oh lord)

"She took responsibility for what she did," said Woody Vann, her attorney, who found the woman "very credible." She brought in pay stubs and school records when asked.

Vann said the woman, over time, paid her legal bills and $4,200 in restitution and court fees. All the while she was enrolled full time at Durham Technical Community College, graduating in 2004 with an associate degree, according to the school. Last fall, she enrolled at NCCU, living in a rental house with her children, ages 5 and 7.

"She would bring the children over here to catch the school bus and then go to over to the college," her father said.

A special thanks is in order for Teresa for being a good sport about all this. Thank you for practicing what none of the guys her can do on our own. :)

She's got so much information and despite what some people think, really is looking at the case objectively.

I spent a lot of time talking to Rita Cosby about the case Friday in New York during a show we were taping. She's got so much information and despite what some people think, really is looking at the case objectively.

For all we know Collin was at Cosmic Cantina enjoying a burrito

For all we know this could be a personable woman. But she has continuously made questionable decisions in her life and almost certainly have mental and substance abuse problems.

What tactics? Did they publicize the Av's past history? Did they hold 70 news conferences? Did they call the KKK in to protect the lacrosse players?

What tactics?

Did they publicize the Av's past history?

Before Seligmann and Finnerty were indicted, attorneys for the players pointed to the accuser's criminal history when answering questions about their clients' legal troubles.

"This woman will have to testify, and it's valid to ask her if she's made any false accusations," said attorney Joe Cheshire, who represents a player who has not been charged and said the decade-old report raises "real issues about her credibility."

"It seems she is receiving very favorable financial treatment for what she is now saying," Thomas said.

Did they hold 70 news conferences?

Did they call the KKK in to protect the lacrosse players?

Again, thank you for NOT working in criminal law.

Service members released because of pregnancy or because they are disabled almost always receive honorable discharges, but those who are kicked out for drug use or weight problems often end up with the black mark of a dishonorable or less than honorable discharge on their record.

As newlyweds, the couple moved to Concord, Calif., where the woman was assigned to the USS Mount Hood, an ammunition ship. She was often away at sea for days or weeks, and tensions flared in the marriage, her former husband said. "She was young," he said. Along the way, the woman became interested in another sailor, a man who would later father her children, the former husband said. The two separated as the new relationship began, he said. Six months later, she was discharged from the service. A U.S. Navy spokesman would not release the reason for the discharge, though records indicate it came less than nine months before she had her first child, a boy, named after his father. Court records show the divorce became final after she gave birth. She continued her relationship with the sailor, and the two had a second child. Soon after, the couple parted ways.

Could she not have acquired hairs on her person while collapsed on the floor, using the probably filthy bathroom, washing up, or changing clothing?

"This will be a long process," said lawyer Bill Thomas, who represents one of the unindicted players. "These cases are very serious cases, and they take time to prepare. And you can expect these lawyers will take their time and they will be prepared on trial day."

Victim: He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me. Sgt: How sure of that are you? Victim: 100% Sgt: You're a 100% sure. Ok. Victim: Yes.

why postpone the trial until next spring? Is it possible that he perceives an ongoing political benefit to keeping this conflict newsworthy?

I am inclined to be skeptical of the value of new DNA evidence.

The odds of doing that -- that is the odds that all 3 attackers would be entirely among the first 7 shown -- are apparently about 1 in 200. Picking them out that early in the ID process of the lineup looks a bit like a rush to judgment.

Why? Because you have no argument?

Before Seligmann and Finnerty were indicted, attorneys for the players pointed to the accuser's criminal history when answering questions about their clients' legal troubles.

"This woman will have to testify, and it's valid to ask her if she's made any false accusations," said attorney Joe Cheshire, who represents a player who has not been charged and said the decade-old report raises "real issues about her credibility."

Did they publicize the Av's past history?

How could they publicize the Av's record if it is already publicized by someone else?

HUME: We have DNA, we just don't have a match?

KENDALL: No match whatsoever. But the DA is supposedly -- my sources tell me -- running tests, not a second round on the DNA that they took from the cheek swabs, but a hair test. Some of the players were forced to turn over hair, normal hair and pubic hair and those are going to be tested against what was found on the victim.

As to the question of the guest list, I think the matter goes to credibility of the AV. Show somebody a series of pictures of only the LAX team, and she is almost certain to pick someone who was there.

I laid out why a happy news story about the AV which relied on her father's observations doesn't necessarily translate to 12 people on a jury who will believe her in the absence of evidence. Maybe that cheery story that she paid a court-ordered restitution and took her kids to the bus stop to catch the school bus will convince the 12 people on the jury that a rape occurred. I'd hope they'd want some evidence too.

general discharge (not honorable)from the navy for fathering a child out of wedlock.

As to the other delicate question,

Teresa, do you see any way a rape could have happened before 12:03, even if they arrived at the party at 11:30?

PB, Well, "if dna links one of the three choices she made to her physical person, the odds of that happening by random chance would be" ... 1 in 46, exactly

At best, she's a victim who has a record of blaming others for her own actions.

More importantly, if these results - and by extension if any of the DA's evidence - were persuasively inculpatory, why postpone the trial until next spring? Is it possible that he perceives an ongoing political benefit to keeping this conflict newsworthy?

After that flurry of activity, Thomas said it could take nine months to deal with pretrial motions and other issues connected with the case. That includes a motion filed by Seligmann's attorney, Kirk Osborn, seeking to throw out the photo identifications made by the accuser.

I've observed "IMHO" to have several times declared a particular "round" to be over and Nifong to have "won." These announcements appear to follow an internal and somewhat arbitrary criteria, personal to "IMHO". I'm new to this forum, but I'll nonetheless proffer that "IMHO" is not a suitable referee. Nor do I accept these random proclamations and conclusions. In fact, if I may say so it comes across a bit shrill.

If this case gets to a trial, then the winner will be decided in that forum and by the jury.

I am inclined to be skeptical of the value of new DNA evidence. For one thing, if (as speculated upthread) it is from hair I don't see how that corroborates the AV's story in any significant way. Could she not have acquired hairs on her person while collapsed on the floor, using the probably filthy bathroom, washing up, or changing clothing?

"There may be DNA. In this first round of tests, they did find DNA under the woman's fingernails. But the tests, as to whose it was, were inconclusive," she said." There are new tests that are expected back," she adds, and these tests could lead to other conclusions.

At best, she's a victim who has a record of blaming others for her own actions.

I don't think there's anything short of the accuser recanting to change the resident feminists' minds. Even that I'm not sure is enough.

I don't think there's anything short of the accuser recanting to change the resident feminists' minds. Even that I'm not sure is enough.

How did the pigeon explain Seliegeman's alibi?

If (big if) this was true Orinoco and there really was a rape, please don't consider him a pigeon. He would be doing the right think you know.

How did the pigeon explain Seliegeman's alibi? Or did he come out after the photo id/indictment? Was he involved enough to ID anyone?

I could become a lawyer, for the mob. hey, it pays well

If Nifong has a inside witness, why would he press these public urination charges?

During the two years that followed the accusation, three of the suspects were acquitted at trial. Four others pleaded to lesser charges, under plea agreements in which they acknowledged guilt.

If (big if) this was true Orinoco and there really was a rape, please don't consider him a pigeon. He would be doing the right thing you know.

If a threat of perjury or aiding and abetting didn't do it, why would public urination be more effective?

Seeing what I have seen of Nifong, I'll gladly take my chances.

According to the father, she did in fact lie about the first gang rape. That's blaming someone else for your problems whatever they may have been.

Huh?

So this woman has twice before (three times if we count her dust up with the nursing home) made police complaints and then walked away from them. It's a pattern of playing the system. You could say she was blaming others for her own problems, or to solve her own problems, or blaming others for things that didn't happen, which is a problem in and of itself.

According to the father, she did in fact lie about the first gang rape.

That's blaming someone else for your problems whatever they may have been.

I guess Nifong couldn't keep leaking things to the family and the New Black Panthers, and Gloria Allred isn't in town.

Compared to this public urination is a piddling charge. I don't think Goldman has ever been concerned with anything as trivial as that.

And remember that this is a person who LAUGHED when she tried to run down a policeman."

Teresa, if you are right about the cooperating team member, then I guess we will all get a chance to renew our speculations here. It should be very interesting.

Bob In Pacifica

IMHO, You make a false rape accusation, you are blaming someone else for a serious problem that you have.

Her father said something to the effect that "those boys did nothing to her." So if you believe the dad, take your pick. She lied or she hallucinated.

IMHO, I'm sure the cop wasn't laughing. I wonder if this helped bolster a plea that she was crazy.

Now IMHO and Bob!

Squabbling again I see.

From there on she was going into withdrawal symptoms.

But that wouldn't explain how she got injuries "consistent" with rape.

How obnoxious is Yale Galanter

They keep mentioneing that she worked at an escort agency. I don't have any knowledge on this, but I always thought "escort" was code for prostitute. At any given moment, I'd imagine most prostitutes have injuries consistent with rape. I don't want to call this woman a prostitute, but if I heard escort that's what I'd ordinarly think.

I would think that the defense (and DA) would find out who her last client was and test him and the boyfriend as well if the injuries are recent. Can you imagine how many experts will be reviewing those pictures if this goes to trial? If she is lying, she needs to get out of this before that evidence is turned over to fifty defense lawyers.

-1993 while 14, dating adult boyfriend. Severe depression according to family. -1996 accusing said boyfriend of gang rape; never follow-through. -general discharge (not honorable)from the navy for fathering a child out of wedlock. -During divorce proceedings with husband, accuse husband of attempted murder; no follow-through. -2002 "spaced out" hiding under table after strip club; steal taxi cab at said club; trying to run down police officer -2004 hiding criminal record from nursing home; reporting nursing home to Durham PD when fired; no follow-through -2005 admission to mental hospital for a week

Evidence of a person's character or a trait of his character is not admissible for the purpose of proving that he acted in conformity therewith on a particular occasion...

Evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is not admissible to prove the character of a person in order to show that he acted in conformity therewith.

For the purpose of attacking the credibility of a witness, evidence that the witness has been convicted of a felony, or of a Class A1, Class 1, or Class 2 misdemeanor, shall be admitted if elicited from the witness or established by public record during cross‑examination or thereafter.

A special case is the fact that she was an escort and allegedly seeing approx. 3 clients a week. This would be relevant as to whether sex with some other person might have caused her injuries. So evidence on that subject, or asking the AV on cross, would probably be admissible.

There was a S.A.N.E. nurse on one of the programs that was answering questions about vaginal bruising possibly being a result of consensual sex. She said you usually do not see any injury in rapes, so when you do it is significant.

All of these prior acts by the AV would be offered to show the likelihood that the AV's current allegations of rape are false. They would all be barred by Ev. Code 404, which is intended to bar prejudicial and speculative character evidence.

Rule 608. Evidence of character and conduct of witness. . . . (b) Specific instances of conduct. - Specific instances of the conduct of a witness, for the purpose of attacking or supporting his credibility, other than conviction of crime as provided in Rule 609, may not be proved by extrinsic evidence. They may, however, in the discretion of the court, if probative of truthfulness or untruthfulness, be inquired into on cross‑examination of the witness (1) concerning his character for truthfulness or untruthfulness . . . .

Rohypnol: The most common effects include; disinhibition and amnesia, excitability or aggressive behavior, decreased blood pressure, memory impairment, drowsiness, visual disturbances, semi-consciousness, dizziness, confusion, stomach disturbances, and urinary retention

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