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New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job

A female, lesbian Duke student alleges she was raped by a male student following a dorm pot-smoking, drinking party on the last day of classes. The male denies they had sex.

DA Mike Nifong says it's not his job to be involved unless police ask for his help.

"The Duke lacrosse case was very different from the way we normally get rape cases," Nifong said. "The District Attorney's Office is normally not contacted during the course of an investigation unless the law enforcement agency needs some special kind of assistance," such as obtaining a court order, he said. "That has not been the case in [the latest] investigation."

Duke police did get a search warrant and order for DNA testing. Nifong's explanation:

The investigation appears to focus on a single suspect, Nifong said.

"It's a different situation if you have a focus on a specific individual, as opposed to a specific address," he said, referring to 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., where the lacrosse party took place.

Does anyone else detect a bit of doublespeak here?

Also on Duke: The DA seems pretty sure he has physical evidence to back up the accuser's rape allegations in the Duke Lacrosse case. Further DNA results are expected around May 15. Nifong had this to say about the first DNA results the day after he won the election:

"My guess is that there are many questions that many people are asking that they would not be asking if they saw the results," Nifong said.

I'm wondering, did they test the broom handle for her DNA or for fecal matter? If they did, and it came back positive, those results might not have been turned over to the defense. Since no one had been charged at the time, the only results they would have been entitled to then were results of the DNA tests of their clients, the players.

Also, maybe the commenters here can clue me in. Why isn't there more news on whomever dropped her off at the party? Isn't this her current boyfriend? Did he go back to pick her up? Didn't he also go to the hospital to see her the next day? If either are true, he's certainly been interviewed by the police.

The crucial photo was taken, defense sources say, at approximately 12:41 a.m., and shows the accuser calmly being helped into a car to leave the party. Taken together with other time- stamped photos from earlier in the evening, it is crucial to the defense argument that there was not enough time that night for a rape to occur. In fact, prosecutors will argue, that photo actually shows the accuser being dropped off at the party, not leaving it, and that it was taken well before midnight. In that photo, the accuser is shown in a black or dark-colored car, which matches a description of the car defense and prosecution sources say dropped her off at the party. The person in the driver seat of that car is not Kim Roberts, whom prosecutors will argue drove the accuser away from the party after the alleged rape.

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    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#1)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 12:55:46 AM EST
    TL, the broom was not listed on the search warrant. Wouldn't it have been? I think the Time reporter was guessing about that photo or the investigator or person from the DA's office that he spoke with is confused. Dan Abrams showed a larger version of that photo and the accuser does not have her right shoe on, so it does look like she is leaving in that picture. I also haven't heard who dropped her off. About the new case, I read that according to a guest on Catherine Crier the young man who walked her home seemed to have left immediately according to dorm security cameras. If his DNA does not match the accuser in this case, do you think we will see another court order for large scale testing of all males in the dorm that night? It seems lightning has struck Duke twice and now we have another rape claim with a large but limited group of potential suspects.

    Talk Left posted:
    Does anyone else detect a bit of doublespeak here?
    Was Nifong involved in getting the search warrant for 610 N. Buchanan or did he only become involved once the 40+ players the three captains listed as being at the party refused to cooperate?

    in response to Nifongs's comment:
    "My guess is that there are many questions that many people are asking that they would not be asking if they saw the results," Nifong said.
    Talk Left posted:
    I'm wondering, did they test the broom handle for her DNA or for fecal matter? If they did, and it came back positive, those results might not have been turned over to the defense.
    The results Nifong are referring to are in the hands of the defense. He is implying the defense selectively released the results of the first round of DNA tests. I think there are some inconclusive results that the defense is not advertising, because while inconclusive, they point in a certain direction. As for the May 15th evidence, I think Nifong is talking about the the inconclusive results from the SBI lab - possibly a mixed DNA sample - that the private lab might be able to separate with more precision and conclusively match to someone and also mitochondrial DNA from hair. The 'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for May 3
    COSBY: I believe you're someone who maybe has something more than the public knows. NIFONG: Well, one would hope that I would not be proceeding without some evidence. And there is a lot more evidence in the hands of the defense attorneys right now than most of the public knows about. And I expect that soon there will be more such evidence. COSBY: Is it safe to say just in general you have a lot more than we know about? NIFONG: I think that's probably pretty safe to say.
    Round Four: Coming soon

    Will New DNA Evidence Solve the Duke Investigation? FOX NEWS' MEGYN KENDALL:
    The accuser's family members telling me tonight [May 4, 2006] that Mike Nifong told them good news is about to come out in this case for the prosecution, good news for the accuser relating -- according to the family -- to DNA. We have not been able to substantiate that through Nifong himself. This is coming from the family.
    The DNA results are not due until May 15th, but they are telling me that Nifong is telling them we're going to get good news for the prosecution on the DNA tests.
    I doubt Kendall made this up, so either the family made this up, or Nifong is lying to the family or he has gotten, at the very least, a verbal "thumbs up" from the private lab.

    Orinoco writes:
    Are the players' families spiteful enough to try [getting Nifong disbarred]? Are their lawyers spiteful enough to try it, especially those who practice in NC? those who practice in Durham?
    I don't think their lack of spite is what's getting in the way. More likely they've been unable to formulate a coherent enough argument to get beyond the level of frivolity.

    Bob In Pacifica posted:
    If the DNA is from hair I don't know how compelling that would be in the absence of DNA from any bodily fluids or tissues. After all, no one would dispute that the defendants had never been to the house and the photos of AV showed that she had sufficient opportunity to pick up hair from the rug, from bumping into things, etc.
    I think that is a good point, Bob, but Nifong has been around the block a few times. I doubt he would consider a head hair DNA match good news unless it was found under her nails with the root attached. Part of the SANE exam involves combing of the alleged victims pubic hair. The hair they might be testing might have come from that procedure. Bob In Pacifica posted:
    To everyone, generally: If FOX is such an unreliable source of news in everything else, why do I constantly see references to it here for this story? Granted, they did a bang up job on the missing white girl in Aruba, but otherwise why would anyone trust them?
    Anytime anyone says anything on FOX I look in the opposite direction for truth.
    The main complaint I've heard about Fox is the slant they give the stories, not that they are making up stuff. I did allow for the fact that Megyn Kendall could be lying - the truth is the accuser's cousin and father told her no such thing. The problem there is, this bit of reporting is not favorable to the Fox News slant on this story. Hannity became agitated by Kendall's report.

    Nifong:Selective Prosecutor,DA. Perhaps being re-elected or elected as District Attorney is more of a punishment this time around. Perhaps the voters thought that it would be better to see if Nifong would be able to follow thru with this Media Driven Dogma that is redundant and not wisely predicated based on rumor and innuendo. In Other Words Nifong would make a terrible Poker Player.

    Nifong's infractions: -46/47 White DNA; smacks of civil rights violation -highly irregular photo id process -70 interviews including pep rally at NCCU -4/14 police invasion of student dorms in attempt to circumvent consel.
    None of these would come close to support disbarral. I'll go through them one by one:
    46/47 White DNA; smacks of civil rights violation
    It was a court order that required the players to give up the DNA. A prosecutor can't disbarred because he petitions a court for an overly broad order that the court grants. It would only be an offense he lied to the court in the petition. There's no reason to believe he did. If the player's 4th amendment rights were violated, the remedy is exclusion of the evidence. But it's the court's order, not Nifong's.
    -highly irregular photo id process
    Nothing in NC law seems to prevent a prosecutor from presenting a line up this way. It's irregular, but so are the circumstances. If the victim had seen the pictures of the lacrosse players in the newspaper, circled the 2 defendants and called the police it wouldn't present many problems as an ID. If at least 90% of the line up shown were not involved in the crime and at least some of the players shown were not at the party at all, it's not even close to being unethical. The main reason it's bad lawyering is that it opens the door for the defense to cast doubt on the ID and move to have it excluded.
    70 interviews including pep rally at NCCU
    This simply isn't that big a deal. If it was proper for him to give one press conference. it would be proper for him to give 70 or even a 1000. It's not exactly unheard of for the police or prosecutors to discuss a crime or the status of an ongoing investigation with the press. The worst thing that Nifong said was that he was convinced a crime occurred and he would be pursuing it in good time. Pursuing an indictment says exactly the same thing. Extensive comments to the press are rarely prudent as a practical matter, but unless theirs a gag order in place their rarely unethical either.
    -4/14 police invasion of student dorms in attempt to circumvent consel.
    Again, not a problem. The police had every right to be in the dorm (The police can come to to your home or apartment and knock on your door without a warrant). Unless the kids were in custody or had been formally charged, the cops weren't out of line. It was stupid in that it looks bad in the press, but not illegal. Trying to get Nifong disbarred would be frivilous show boating, nothing more. Lawyers make mistakes all the time - it's really easy to do. That's partially why good lawyers cost so much

    Orinoco posted:
    The hair evidence, if they exist (big IF), will only help win the case if it is from one of four people--Seliegeman, Finnerty and the two 90 percenters.
    Something tells me that if Tony McDevitt's pubic hair shows up in the accuser's pubic hair combings, the jurors might understand the misidentification: Reade and Tony Orinoco posted:
    It would be easy to infer that she's framing these guys for money and planted the hair on her. She was in the bathroom and male hair are easy to come by in that space.
    The problem with that theory is that 12 jurors have to believe it for an aquittal. Only one such juror is needed for a mistrial, do you live in Durham county?

    So much sleeze in one DA of one case shook my confidence in the entire judicial system. There might be worse DAs in the country, but few have f---ed with someone this rich and "previleged". Who's f---ed with Bob Bennett and come away in one piece?
    You should probably take that as a sign right there. Why in the hell would a prosecutor do this if they didn't have more evidence than has been presented publically? The prosecutor has presented barely any of his evidence, but has strongly hinted that he has subtantially more.

    So much sleeze in one DA of one case shook my confidence in the entire judicial system. There might be worse DAs in the country, but few have f---ed with someone this rich and "previleged". Who's f---ed with Bob Bennett and come away in one piece?
    You should probably take that as a sign right there. Why in the hell would a prosecutor do this if they didn't have more evidence than has been presented publically? The prosecutor has presented barely any of his evidence, but has strongly hinted that he has subtantially more.

    Nice job huesofblue, I was too lazy to refute Orinoco's post and it's just as well. I could not have done anywhere near well as you did.

    Juries are crazy, and these guys wouldn't want to gamble on mistrials given the town hostility to Duke and the fact that people will watch preemptories really closely. I'm betting that they waive the right to a jury trial and go to a judge.

    IMHO - I'm flattered, but I doubt it's true. You seem to hold your own in these debates.

    rogan - Right now people as a whole seem to be about 50/50 on this case. And the defense only needs one of the 12 people on the jury to buy their story to avoid a conviction. With a single judge they won't get that benefit.

    Orinoco I'm just speculating, but what if the first round of DNA testing (which was done REALLY quickly and didn't include the full battery of tests) yielded 35 results that said "no match" and 5 that said inconclusive? And what if 2 of those 5 inconclusives just happened to match the 2 players that the AV identified with 100% certainty? If I was the prosecutor, I'd probably feel really comfortable inditing at that point.

    to hues of blue We betray our biases. The prosecution also only needs one person of twelve to "buy their story" and prevent an acquittal no matter what the facts say, and Nifong will certainly retry the case endlessly if the jury isn't unanimous. Unless Nifong has overwhelming evidence the defendents would be dumb to use a jury.

    Nifong must have had a lot of DNA (semen?) to be so sure of himself before the first batch of DNA testing/ID's. He sure wasn't assuming that he'd have to wait for hair ID's. He got a lot of DNA from the 46 players. It's only speculation, but I can't help but wonder if there was DNA on the AV that does not belong to any Duke player. We'll find out at the trial, I guess, if it ever happens.

    Orinoco, You wrote:
    I think we can all agree that Nifong conducted this case in an unusual manner with highly irregular pracitices. There's not much question that he made many (inexplicable) mistakes during the investigation and indictment.
    I don't agree with that. I think any "unusualness" we're seeing is a biproduct of a)an unusual level of public interest, b)the unusual timing of the case in close proximity to the timing of the election, and c) an unusually strident public relations campaign by, to coin a term, the Duke-oisee. Critiques of Nifong are vital upfront and center issues to those who have already made up their mind on the question at the heart of the case, but to those of us for whom the question of rape remains the central question, Nifong's prosecutorial foibles, to the extent that they can be said to be foibles, take a back seat. There's a simple heuristic common folk use to analyze cases like this one that says: "silence is the ally of the abuser." In light of that, Nifong's public utterances are refreshing. If they turn out to be equivalently irresponsible, well, he'll get his.

    What if the 2nd round still turns up inconclusive, after the indictment?
    It totally depends. If the DNA yields a less than 5% match for everyone at the party, but is a 30% match to Seligman and a 20% match to Finnerty it actually helps the DA. (Anyone with knowledge of DNA testing know whether this a realistic senario? Is this even how it works?) But if the sample from the victim is just too bad to make a match with anyone, it helps the defense a lot.
    What if the 2nd round turns up three people other than the two indicted, after the indictment?
    I think it's time to drop the case and go after the other three. I think a sincere and public apology would be called for.
    If he knew by 4/11 he had a good chance of some solid DNA evidence, why would he rush to indict before the 2nd round, before more concrete evidence? Other than a small primary, I cannot think of a reason.
    The primary and public pressure brought about the inditment. I have no doubt about that. But I don't think the prosecutor would have done it if he didn't think the evidence in hand could get the job done standing alone. That's why we have 2 inditments and not three.

    and Nifong will certainly retry the case endlessly if the jury isn't unanimous
    I think two hung juries would be the end of the case. That sort of thing is incredibly rare though. If you can't get one of two juries to convict, it's probably because there's reasonable doubt.

    Hi - I've been reading these Duke threads for days now, and it's all been very interesting. I do have one question I haven't seen addressed--has there been any analysis of whether this case helped Nifong win his primary? Polls before/after the case hit the news, exit polls with racial breakdowns, anything like that? Please excuse me if such a question is outside the scope of this blog.

    With the case as is, I think the players would be smart to eschew a jury. Jurors can be remarkably dumb creatures, cf. the Simpson jury. Very few jurists are that dumb (hopefully).
    It depends a lot on the defense theory. The AV's job and past might damage her credibility more with a bible thumping southern jury than with a judge who knows that promiscuous women and former victims of sex crimes are much more likely (statistically) to be raped. Also, a judge who has seen vaginal injuries in a hundred rape cases is going to be a lot better at evaluating whether the pictures in this case are the sort that come from a violent rape or the sort where it's a toss up. On a totally different note - strippers almost always shave below the belt. The thing is, that stubble tends to scratch a man around the base - even if you use a condom (if you're a guy who's been married for a few years, most girls keep things pretty closely trimmed these days. Rub a finger back and forth on your own face and you'll get an idea.). It's hard for me to imagine how there wouldn't be some skin flakes left in the stubble after a 30 minute assault.

    I wonder is there any poster who is ready to change their position about player's innocense if some kind of DNA evidense surface. I am seeing from these posts that some posters getting ready to keep their position on defending players as aggresively even DNA tests come positive.

    Hicht posted:
    I wonder is there any poster who is ready to change their position about player's innocense if some kind of DNA evidense surface. I am seeing from these posts that some posters getting ready to keep their position on defending players as aggresively even DNA tests come positive.
    Orinoco is already entertaing thoughts of the accuser planting the players' hairs she found in the bathroom on herself. What's to keep her from rubbing their hand towels all over her body in hopes they had recently ejaculated onto them?

    >>FOX NEWS' MEGYN KENDALL: << The accuser's family members telling me tonight [May 4, 2006] that Mike Nifong told them good news is about to come out in this case for the prosecution, good news for the accuser relating -- according to the family -- to DNA. We have not been able to substantiate that through Nifong himself. This is coming from the family. The DNA results are not due until May 15th, but they are telling me that Nifong is telling them we're going to get good news for the prosecution on the DNA tests.<< DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT FOX NEWS PRINTS!! This appears to be a very slanted and inaccurate reporting source. I honestly believe they have made stories up for this case...why I don't know...? And why they exposed the accuser's name is interesting as well. It's almost like they have a personal stake in the AV backing out. But Nifong cannot make promises to the family. And if he is basing his ability to get convictions on DNA evidence alone, he can forget it! I am guessing that one of the major reasons for Nifong moving forward--was the evidence that a sodomy took place. I guess for the public to believe that--they would have to see photos of her orifice? That's not gonna happen folks...And please, noone speculate that it happened to her before the LAX party ok. The DA knows that people will claim in the absence of conclusive DNA--that the defense attorney will imply that she had sex with multiple partners before coming to the party--ok! I agree with a much earlier post...the DA knows several facts that the public won't know til trial...And the defense is upset that those photos were released. The interesting question on those photos, is that if no crime occurred, why take the time to alter the photos? Everything is all speculation, even on the timeline. This is like a soap opera and we are trying to guess the ending..

    rogan1313 posted:
    Nifong must have had a lot of DNA (semen?) to be so sure of himself before the fist batch of DNA testing/ID's.
    I don't think any semen was found "in or on" the accuser, but if this article is correct, the fingernail DNA story is wrong.* April 11, 2006
    The results, the lawyers said, show that investigators collected no genetic material of any kind from the woman. "There was no DNA found in or on her that would indicate that she recently had any sex," Cheshire said.
    Investigators found no DNA under the woman's remaining fingernails, or on those taken during the search of the rental house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., which Duke recently bought in an attempt to quell student parties.
    They also found no DNA on the woman's clothing or belongings, players' attorneys said. The tests found DNA matches to two players, from a towel outside the bathroom and on another object, Cheshire said.
    One sample was from a player's semen and another was a different type of DNA, Cheshire said. He said that was to be expected in a bathroom shared by the three men who lived in the house.
    I guess that object is the floor: From The Abrams Report' for April 10:
    CHESIRE: There was DNA found of two of the boys on a towel and on the floor.
    Which brings me to another theory on the inconclusive results. How about this: the DNA sample that is semen, be it from the floor, the towel or some other object, is a mixed sample. Separation of the mixture revealed the DNA profile was a match for one of the residences of the house, but the other DNA sample(s) extracted from the mixture were inconclusive. Could be from another user of the bathroom, one of the indicted players, the matched player's girlfriend, the accuser, could remain inconclusive... * The April 24, 2006 Newsweek article 'Sex, Lies & Duke':
    Many rape cases are solved by the DNA evidence. But in this investigation, the tests have not provided the airtight answers investigators might have hoped for. Meadows says that could change in the future. "There may be DNA. In this first round of tests, they did find DNA under the woman's fingernails. But the tests, as to whose it was, were inconclusive," she said." There are new tests that are expected back," she adds, and these tests could lead to other conclusions.


    Orinoco posted:
    I would also think unless the semen belong to the four men already id'ed, the real perps have a good chance to get off because of the botched ID.
    Your logic could be a set back for the innocence project. The accuser made an erroneous photo ID, so we'll just ignore the DNA evidence? Orinoco posted:
    It would leave a very bad taste in my mouth.
    And the accuser, too! That would explain the semen in the bathroom towel. :)

    To IMHO, Bob in Pacifica and the rest of you thoughtful sleuths following this, here is another image I have been trying to sort out. I have no idea what this means, but it is so factually improbable to me that I feel it must mean something about the mindset of the AV and perhaps about the nature of the alleged events that night. What is this whole business with the second shoe? Photos clearly show she lost one shoe in the first three minutes of dancing. It stays there on the floor for the whole rest of the time. Then by anybody's version of the story she manages to hobble around lopsided wearing the other high heeled shoe for the next half hour; if you count Krogers and beyond, then for the next two hours. She's wearing it during trips back and forth to the bathroom allegedly to paint her nails. She has it on for trips back and forth to the car as she changes her mind about dancing. It clings to her foot tenaciously for a half an hour even as she allegedly is being violently raped, sodomized, choked, knocked around with cuts, bruises, and maybe even a broom handle involved. She is wearing it as she goes back to the house to retrieve the other shoe. She is still wearing it while standing outside on the back porch, still wearing it after falling down on the back porch, and even after being helped into the car as she gets ready to leave. She is completely "out of it" by this time, yet she never manages to lose the second shoe. It took only three minutes for her to lose the first shoe. It fell off her foot in a simple dance routine. Yet through all of the other alleged activity that took place that night -- some of it very violent and prolonged -- she never manages to lose the second shoe. It would seem that each of these alleged activities would increase the likelihood that the other shoe would simply fall off, but it didn't. It is factual improbable, yet it it still true. However, that does not explain why she did not simply reach down and take the shoe off her foot so as to make walking around for half an hour a bit less awkward than hobbling around lopsided. If the former is factually improbable, then the latter doesn't even make any common sense to me. So that is my question. Why is she hobbling around for half an hour of all of this activity wearing only one high heeled shoe instead of just taking it off?

    Hicht, I don't know if DNA proof changes my current position, which has been: I lean slightly towards a rape having happened but not enough evidence is known at present to prove it. I have my doubts about Nifong's prosecution, but since I don't know what he has I don't know what he doesn't have. I have heard that the lacrosse captains were the source of the "no sex happened/nothing happened" early announcement before lawyers took over. The defense lawyers certainly have not publicly backed away from that, so there shouldn't be any DNA or bodily fluids of the attendees recovered from the AV's body. There's no fallback position of a consenual business transaction left. That's why I have my doubts that a rape occurred. If it had, the defense attorneys would have logically created a prostitution defense. DNA evidence would be hard to disprove. If there are no matches I don't know how Nifong's going to proceed. I am not sure what weight a "kinda matches" or "sorta matches" of DNA would be in court. I'm sure defense attorneys would rip at any incomplete match.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#32)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 03:36:57 PM EST
    SLO, I've wondered the same. She has lost the shoe by 12:03 or so and still doesn't have it when she leaves. Very strange. Even if I was very drunk, I'd notice that and kick the other one off at least.

    Yeah, the one shoe on and one shoe off is odd. And where is her right shoe? It is listed in the second search warrant so it wasn't seized in the execution of the first warrant. And not listed in items seized in the second warrant either.

    SLOphoto, I'm not sure what it means, her being on one shoe for most of her time there. That would suggest that she was out of it coming out of the gate at midnight. The search warrant (thanks Teresa) said that the AV arrived and met Roberts at 11:30. If they entered the house at that time that would give almost a half hour for the AV to drink a mickey and get loaded. Then she could have lost her shoe and been oblivious of it. There are problems, since the defense timeline says that they didn't enter the house until around midnight and the known photos seem to suggest that. The AV and Roberts could have been toking up together in the car 11:30 to 11:50. Whatever, it suggests to me that very soon after midnight the AV was very intoxicated, so intoxicated that she didn't know she was missing a shoe. This might indicate that someone slipped her something, or that she and Roberts may have partook something (less likely) or that she took something herself before she came (more likely than partaking with Roberts, less likely than a drugged drink). If the AV were so loaded at midnight so as to not notice she was missing one shoe, it goes against her ability to remember and describe any rape that may have happened, or any of her IDs. You can imagine a defense attorney show repeated photos showing her with one shoe and asking her how she could remember details of a rape if she couldn't comprehend she was missing a shoe. On the other hand, any evidence of a date rape drug automatically puts great suspicion on the men at that house. In short, the lack of shoe for all that time points the AV being very, very intoxicated from midnight on. What we draw from that... ?

    Orinoco posted:
    "The accuser made an erroneous photo ID" has to add to reasonable doubt, no?
    Reasonable doubt is in the mind of the beholding jurors. If the jurors are shown a photo of Reade Seligmann and a photo of Tony McDevitt, it is shown McDevitt's phone was used to call for a cab to 610 N. Buchanan at 12:29 a.m., the driver testifies he picks up four young men at that address about 20 minutes later. The cab driver testifies they look/sound worried, they say "She's going to call the police," and "she's just a stripper" and they may also be able to hear that it seemed to him that something bad had just happened at that house. They hear testimony that McDevitt's DNA was found under the accuser's fingernails, I think they will be able to conclude her photo ID was wrong and they'll be able to see how the two men could be mistaken in photos. A player's DNA found in the right places will trump a mistaken photo ID.

    If no dna match is made in the 2nd round of tests, would people change their minds who currently think the players are guilty?
    I don't fit your qualifier.

    SLOphoto
    That's a great point about the shoe. You have to be really destroyed to hobble around for an hour in one high healed shoe (and stripper heals are really high). Anyone know how long it would take a date rape drug to kick in?

    'The Abrams Report' for May 4
    ABRAMS: All right, here's the potential evidence that we've put together, Woody Vann, as to possible evidence he could have. I guess they could have a cooperating team member, which would be huge. Now, the hair or other DNA evidence, I've actually seen the DNA report and there is reference to inconclusive DNA tests. There's also reference to possible mixtures of DNA and--that remained inconclusive.


    huesofblue asked:
    Anyone know how long it would take a date rape drug to kick in?
    Depends which drug it is, dosage, if taken with alcohol, etc. I've read 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

    inmyhumbleopinion Evidence showing the presence of the date rape drug would be pretty huge. Whether they have the right perpetrators will still be an issue, but a jury will almost surely believe that a rape occured. A jury might question whether her drug addled mind made the right ID, but the credibility of the defense is going to take a huge blow if they continue to argue that nothing happened at all.

    Here is a site that gives info about various "date rape" drugs, testing procedures and half-life. GHB in particular seems very difficult to detect.

    Here's an off-topic thought. One of the sides in this case is clearly lying. Assuming the odds of a lie are the same for all involved, who would you want the lying party to be? If the defendants are lying, it's just tragic because they've not only horribly raped this woman, they've managed to destory her reputation too. And they're almost surely going to get away with it, unless Nifong has some damn good evidence that he's keeping to himself. But if the woman's lying, it's terrible too. The lives and certainly the reputations of these two kids are ruined forever. No matter what, their names will always be associated with this case and the alleged behavior. Moreover, if the woman is lying and it's conclusively proved at trial, it'll be a blow to the credibility of future rape victims for years to come. If the truth was goign to come out tomorrow, I'm not sure who I would cross my fingers for.

    The least damage to all parties would be if the accuser was lying. No rape would have occurred. I doubt any of the players would be convicted of any sex crimes without DNA evidence.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#44)
    by chew2 on Sat May 06, 2006 at 05:24:39 PM EST
    IMHO,
    I don't think any semen was found "in or on" the accuser, but if this article is correct, the fingernail DNA story is wrong.*
    No semen, no fingernail residue on the AV. So what residue material on the AV or her clothes were the first DNA tests supposed to match? Saliva? Facial Hair? Pubic Hair? ??? There had to be some genetic material on the AV or no point in testing for a match with the team members.

    Honestly, it wouldn't change my opinion that a rape occured. DNA evidence is not neccesity for rape cases. But I would acknowledge that in this one in which there is very big social statue gap between accuser and accused, it would be very difficult to get a conviction without a DNA evidence even rape occured.

    Regarding IMHO's 5:37 post, the AV was incapable of talking coherently (she couldn't tell Roberts her address, didn't have her phone), so when the four guys get into the cab, if they are worried about someone who is going to call the police, it would be Roberts, who actually was going to call the police. And did call the police. Roberts said that she didn't think a rape occurred any time that night. If there had been a rape, they may have been concerned that calling the cops might somehow lead to revelations about any rape, but I think that it's more logical if they were fearing something they were fearing Roberts calling and complaining about the racial epithets and general bad behavior of the crowd. Having said that, you could construct a suggestion of guilt on McDevitt's part, if he were one of the guys in the cab (he made the phone call, did he actually ride in the cab?). I personally would probably put more money on McDevitt's guilt than Seligmann's at this point based on timeline and opportunity. I also wonder if Mister 90% aka Assailant X was in that cab.

    huesofblue, Regarding time for a drug to kick in, someone said that at least one of the date rape drugs would begin being absorbed in the mouth and could start to affect the taker within five minutes. Most drugs that are swallowed take 20 minutes or more through the stomach. The search warrant said that the AV and Roberts met at 11:30 but doesn't say when they entered the house. You could logically put the two going in at 11:30. If they did and the AV was immediately handed a drink, that would be more than enough time for the drug to work. However, we don't know anything about what the dancers were doing inside the house. If they started dancing, were offended by the broom (lacrosse stick?) comment, then walked out, and then came back to the door at 11:50, that would make Bissey's observation of the first time they entered actually their second entrance. If the two were toking up in Roberts' car, that would explain the gap between 11:30 and 11:50. Or the AV's 11:30 may have been 11:45. If the two walked in near midnight it would be a mighty tight squeeze if she were so high she didn't know she was missing a shoe three minutes later. But maybe not impossible if they entered a couple minutes earlier and walked out a few minutes later. It always struck me strange that a houseful of guys would wait from 11:50 to midnight to let in the dancers. It's also possible that her boyfriend or someone at an earlier date (if there was one) gave her a pill and said, try this.

    chew2
    No semen, no fingernail residue on the AV. So what residue material on the AV or her clothes were the first DNA tests supposed to match? Saliva? Facial Hair? Pubic Hair? ??? There had to be some genetic material on the AV or no point in testing for a match with the team members.
    The DNA evidence was gathered fron the remaining 44 players 10 days after the assault. Who knows what DNA from the victim (if any) they had tested by then? Just because the attorneys or the reporters say something, doesn't meant it is true. The Newsweek article says there was DNA under her fingernails. Abrams mentioned the inconclusive and mixed DNA samples. They could be from towels or the floor or "an object." The mixture could be a player and the accuser. It could be two from players. They could remain inconclusive. The private lab DNA tests results are going to be big for one side or the other. If Nifong really told the family to expect good news in relation to DNA, he either knows it's coming, is an incurable optimist, is stark raving mad, or is trying to scare the crap out of someone, in hopes they come forward seeking a deal.

    The cases where people may be convicted of rape without DNA evidence are those with clear positive ID (i.e. not of people with apparent alibis) or those where there is no DNA (report made 4 years later, for example, as the AV did concerning another alleged rape). If someone else's DNA is present then most liberal types regard this as evidence for innocence, and thus release people from jail. DNA matches are all or nothing--there is no "30% match". That's why if you're in jail and the sperm matches someone else, you're cut loose. The proper question is "What proportion of rapes which last half an hour with a lot of struggling and a SANE exam very soon after do not produce enough DNA evidence to positively identify SOMEONE?" I bet it's not 75%, though the forensic scientists out there will have to answer for sure.

    As far as the DNA evidence, My guess is that if there is a match with McDevitt then he will be indicted and Seligmann's indictment will be thrown out. If Seligmann has an alibi as good as it seems and I were Nifong, I would be happy to switch defendants to one who matches DNA. It would weaken anything based on her IDs though. On the other hand, maybe McDevitt and Seligmann are cousins. They look alike. There was actually a case in the early nineties during the early stages of DNA testing, reported in the old The Sciences magazine, which talked about a case where a murder happened in a small town in Texas where everyone was related and the guy who was convicted on DNA evidence didn't do it.

    Thanks to everyone for your helpful input about the high-heeled shoe question. Most people seem to have picked up on the implication that the AV may well have been "out of it" fairly early so as not to notice the lopsided shoe. The second point -- and I'll try to keep this very delicate -- has implications for what sex acts may or may not have taken place in the bathroom. Briefly, a cooperative female would have to brace herself at least somewhat in order to perform the described sex acts -- if she were standing that is. Under the influence of drugs and or alcohol it would have been more difficult for her to maintain her balance. Add one high heeled shoe it would get really difficult, especially as the time added up towards 30 minutes. Amplify this situation by having an unwilling female fighting against her attackers. I think it would have been virtually impossible for her to remain standing to perform the acts, even if she were being braced by the attackers. By definition at least one foot -- the foot in the high heeled shoe -- has a bent knee above it. I think the knee would buckle under the stress of the prolonged struggle. And I think she would be knocking down some of her attackers in the process. So whatever acts took place she very likely had to have been in a non-standing position. By definition that takes up more floor space than a standing attack would. This is a small 5 X 8 foot room with a toilet, tub and sink in it. With three attackers surrounding her it is certainly still possible, but it does limit the number of ways that the attack could physically have taken place. Please everyone remember that in my own speculations earlier I pointed out that the second shoe still managed to stay on her foot for the whole half hour no matter what else happened. So improbable things are still possible. But it does give pause to wonder about some of the logistics of the alleged attack.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#52)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 06:27:42 PM EST
    If the two were toking up in Roberts' car, that would explain the gap between 11:30 and 11:50. Or the AV's 11:30 may have been 11:45.
    The dance was supposed to start at 11:30. I can't imagine the men letting them sit in their cars for 20 or more minutes without getting antsy. I would assume that if an expensive dance like that was supposed to start at a certain time neither side would just be outside piddling around. You know Bob, this timeline is going to drive you and me crazy. I guess since the women hadn't met before they had to discuss their routine and Kim at least had to get in her outfit. Other than that, I don't see them wasting too much time. I keep reading that the dance was in the master bedroom. Why wouldn't they dance in the living room which I assume in a party house is pretty cleared out? Maybe Kim was supposed to primarily dance (or whatever) in one room and the accuser in the other.

    Bob in Pacifica, The woman the cab driver described as walking angrily to her car sounded like it was Kim Roberts. And she claims she said, "I called the police (or cops?), you dumbasses!" We don't know if Tony made the call only that the cab driver says Tony's phone was used to call. We don't know if Tony was one of the four guys that got in the cab at around 1:50, four other guys could have "roached" his cab. The "don't worry" and "she's just a stripper" comments could be referring to a lot of things they may be worried about: their hosts being busted for another noise violation, underaged drinking, the other guys still there (cab driver says there were about 20 guys outside) getting busted for drinking, robbery if someone took the stripper's money, giving her the date rape drug if that happened, the sexual assault if that happened...

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#54)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 06:35:07 PM EST
    This is a small 5 X 8 foot room with a toilet, tub and sink in it.
    SLO, where did you get that info? I've looked everywhere and haven't seen it. As a female, if I picture myself in this situation, I think she would be kneeling. I guess she could be on her side, but remember one guy was behind her holding her neck and arms (allegedly).

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#56)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 06:49:54 PM EST
    That's an interesting quote imho, but I think they are testing hair AND putting the first samples through additional testing. With inconclusive results I can't imagine that they wouldn't.

    Orinoco posted:
    A bit conceited, no?
    Huh? I was answering this query:
    If no dna match is made in the 2nd round of tests, would people change their minds who currently think the players are guilty?
    I didn't answer because I don't fit your qualifier - I do not currently think the players are guilty (I assume you meant of rape and/or sexual assault). I think they could be guilty, I also think the accuser could be lying.

    Teresa, Thank you for you comment. I'll look for the 5 X 8 foot reference. I may be mistaken and I only saw it mentioned briefly. As to the other delicate question, I think you are right -- female on her knees is the most logical answer. But .. well, more delicate stuff. How does one attacker perform sex acts from behind while a second attacker holds her arms and neck from behind? Perhaps one of them is slightly to the side. Or else if she is forward on hands and knees, and one attacker is actually standing straddled over the top of her, the second kneeling behind and the third kneeling in front. It would work, but it would be a tight fit in a small room.

    Teresa posted:
    That's an interesting quote imho, but I think they are testing hair AND putting the first samples through additional testing. With inconclusive results I can't imagine that they wouldn't.
    I agree. The DNA mixtures for sure.

    I heard about the 5x8 bathroom, too. I don't know if it's true or not. Most bathrooms have all three (toilet, sink, bathtub) or a shower. If there were two bathrooms and the other was just for those living there, this one may not have had the tub. If the house is old enough, it may not have had a sink. As far as how a rape could have been done, I was wondering how it could have been accomplished, and how no one else, or at least Roberts, didn't know about it. But as far as people coupling, where there is a will there is a way, and if there was a rape the three were motivated.

    IMHO: I have no idea, but I from the complexity of trying to perform them all in one position -- forcibly -- I suspect that there had to be some sort of rotation involved in the sex acts. Otherwise I don't see how it could physically be done without at least two other attackers also holding her. And yet another delicate matter. It is a confident rapist indeed who forces oral sex on a woman and does not have his own hands around her throat. I mean is the third attacker relying on his buddy to convince her not to just bight it right off? Out of all this, that is the part I find least convincing.

    Teresa, The timeline does drive me crazy. It seems unlikely that the men would let them sit outside when a show was supposed to start, but did they know they were out there? And having them stand outside from around 11:50 to midnight, as Bissey said, doesn't make sense either, unless it was so noisy inside that no one heard them knocking.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#64)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 07:29:52 PM EST
    SLO, with two other men, possibly, holding me, I wouldn't bite out of fear they'd knock my head off. I have read of plenty of cases of rape and even murder where the victim was forced to perform oral sex first. If you are female, I'd think of another way to fight back first.

    The descriptions of the photos comes from the attorneys who must know from the players in which room the dancing took place.
    Cheshire gave the newspaper this account of what the photographs show:
    The first sequence of photographs, taken over three and a half minutes, shows two women dancing in negligees in the living room of the Durham off-campus house rented by the team's three captains.


    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#66)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 07:34:56 PM EST
    And having them stand outside from around 11:50 to midnight, as Bissey said, doesn't make sense either, unless it was so noisy inside that no one heard them knocking.
    Bob, the standing outside and talking that Bissey saw is what makes me think that they could have been returning after the offensive remarks. They may have been setting some ground rules or demanding that they keep the unruly guys in order. Maybe not. They could have just been doing introductions but I would think they would have entered immediately after that and not stood around.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#67)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 07:36:56 PM EST
    Well that's interesting imho. Doesn't the search warrant say master bedroom? As least other accounts I have read say that.

    SLOphoto, I also have wondered about that and reflexively snapped my legs together. One would expect that the rapists had first beaten her for some time in order to get her to cooperate. Would have further cut into Seligmann's limited time though. When I think about how the crime would have had to have been committed I keep running into problems. Like I said above, where there's a will there's a way.

    I've seen both living room and master bedroom. If you move the bed out of a master bedroom and put in a couch, then you've got a living room. More important to me is where the bathroom was in relation to wherever the dancing was and wherever Roberts was when they got separated.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#70)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 07:46:24 PM EST
    The terrible things I'm doing to "my beautiful mind". I always picture the oral part as the first act. IF there was an object that would be last.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#71)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 07:48:17 PM EST
    But Bob, wouldn't they need all available bedrooms with three guys living there?

    I mean is the third attacker relying on his buddy to convince her not to just bight it right off? Out of all this, that is the part I find least convincing.
    Forced oral sex is accomplished through intimidation and it doesn't take three attackers. The accuser told her father she thought they were going to kill her.

    Well that's interesting imho. Doesn't the search warrant say master bedroom? As least other accounts I have read say that.
    That would be from the dancer(s) description. I can't imagine a bedroom in an older home having a master bedroom large enough for all those guys and two dancers and a bed. I would guess there was a "day bed" in the living room for guests and that led the dancer(s) to think it was a bedroom.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#74)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 08:28:29 PM EST
    I just measured my other bathroom. It is 5 by 8 and without a clothes hamper in there, there is plenty of room for 4 people if they really cared about it. I practiced positions (oh lord) and kneeling still seems most likely to me. Or kind of pressed sideways against a vanity sort of bent over. I can see the reenactment in the jury room now. Nifong gets the backside because he's already practiced.

    I practiced positions (oh lord)
    hahahahahaha!

    If this goes to trial and the defense tries to use her prior convictions to discredit her - attack her credibility and character, I think it will back-fire on them. The more I read about this incident the more respect I have for her. Rape Case Is Seen as a Symbol in N.C. College Town
    "She took responsibility for what she did," said Woody Vann, her attorney, who found the woman "very credible." She brought in pay stubs and school records when asked.
    Vann said the woman, over time, paid her legal bills and $4,200 in restitution and court fees. All the while she was enrolled full time at Durham Technical Community College, graduating in 2004 with an associate degree, according to the school. Last fall, she enrolled at NCCU, living in a rental house with her children, ages 5 and 7.
    "She would bring the children over here to catch the school bus and then go to over to the college," her father said.


    A special thanks is in order for Teresa for being a good sport about all this. Thank you for practicing what none of the guys her can do on our own. :)

    A special thanks is in order for Teresa for being a good sport about all this. Thank you for practicing what none of the guys her can do on our own. :)
    Oh, Teresa was alone?

    IMHO, character works all ways. We live in a country where over ten million honest people who have been working here for years but who are illegal immigrants would all be deported immediately by a majority of Americans if they could wave their magic wands. No forgiveness there. Paying your fines as part of a sentence for stealing a taxicab and driving drunk isn't necessarily seen as exemplary by lots of people. I personally don't know anybody who would have given me or anyone else any additional respect for walking the kids to the school bus. Sorry, that's part of being a parent. No extra credit there. And she did get hospitalized for some kind of mental illness last year, leaving her kids in someone else's care (her parents?) for that time. Many people actually resent and dislike others who have suffered mental illness. They see it as a weakness in the person's character. Finally, strict fundamentalists don't have all that much sympathy for sex trade workers. The thing that really shocked me about the article that ran in Essence were the comments by the readers. There were a lot saying that nothing would have happened to the AV if she hadn't been stripping. That is, they were blaming the victim. I can't pretend to know what will be in the minds of the twelve people finally chosen for a jury, but I don't think that a news article about the AV's heroism for doing the expected is a guarantee that the jury pool will all find her as a symbol of strength or that in the absence of DNA evidence or witnesses they won't find whatever the defense can get into the trial (past unproven claims of crimes against her, her mental health) to be explanatory to her claim for something where there doesn't seem to be any other evidence. That's why Nifong better be more than a good bluffer.

    Teresa, I actually was thinking of doing the same but decided to wait until the house was empty.

    Great comments, everyone. This is the first chance I've had to read through them in a few days. On Monday, David Evans, one of the team captains who lived in the house, is going to court because Nifong has moved to revoke the deferred prosecution in his prior urinating in public case. He's the only one he has filed a revocation on so far. Why him? Is it to get him to turn against the others? Evans was one of those who voluntarily submitted to an interview and gave DNA right away. I spent a lot of time talking to Rita Cosby about the case Friday in New York during a show we were taping. She's got so much information and despite what some people think, really is looking at the case objectively. I highly recommend watching her MSNBC show for continuing details.

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#82)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 09:55:00 PM EST
    She's got so much information and despite what some people think, really is looking at the case objectively.
    TL, I also think she is being objective. Her show has actually been the most objective to me and I wonder if that is because she isn't a lawyer (Abrams/Greta). I don't mean that in a bad way. She is not thinking like a prosecutor or a defense lawyer, but more like a regular person. Are you willing to share any inside scoop?

    Re: New Duke Rape Allegation: DA Says Not His Job (none / 0) (#83)
    by Teresa on Sat May 06, 2006 at 09:59:32 PM EST
    SOL, imho, Bob, Glad to be of service. :) Yes, tonight everyone is gone and I am alone so only my dogs think I'm crazy. Bob - I wish the jury could come from this site. I think we are trying to think things through but very willing to be objective if we have to be. I don't think an uneducated jury could do that. I really hope we find out the truth and I feel so very sorry for the side that is innocent here.

    David Evans wasn't a public urinater, his infraction was for, what we used to call, "open container" - open beer, etc. in a vechicle. TalkLeft posted:
    I spent a lot of time talking to Rita Cosby about the case Friday in New York during a show we were taping. She's got so much information and despite what some people think, really is looking at the case objectively.
    Rita is all over this story. She gets the good interviews. Driving around Durham with the cab driver was classic. She has been objective. She talks to both sides and is best friends with whomever she is interviewing. When Rita asks - people spill it. She's good at what she does.

    Bob, The jurors are already going to know she worked as a stripper. It's not like that part of the story will be news to them. Ask an attorney how many of their clients pay their attorneys fees in full and make good on their restitution. I think you might be surprised, and most of the scofflaws can afford to pay. She took responsibility for what she did. She didn't blame anyone else. That is rare these days. Do you think Collin Finnerty will be paying his attorney fees for his D.C. arrest? The accuser served out her two year probation without incident while going to school, working for $10.50 an hour and raising her two kids. Collin didn't even make five months.

    Orinoco posted:
    For all we know Collin was at Cosmic Cantina enjoying a burrito
    And if this goes to trial, that evidence will be presented. I was talking about the accuser's prior conviction being used to attack her character. If Collin Finnerty is convicted in D.C. before the Durham case goes to trial, the prosecution could try to interject his conviction into the rape trial. The D.C. prosecutor noted what he saw as similarites in his case and the Durham case: both assaults happened late at night with other lacrosse players while consuming alcohol. Others have noted the name calling and violent behavior that could be interpreted as a need to prove his masculinty to his peers. My point was if both priors go before the jury, I think the accuser will come out ahead in the character bashing contest. My stating that I don't know if the players are guilty nor do I know if the accuser is lying is not akin to saying I am without bias. I carry-on, whenever I get an opportunity, about my disgust with most of the defense attorneys' tactics and my disappointment with the players for following their advice. Based on what I've read about the accuser and what I've read about Finnerty I'd rather share a burrito with the accuser. The jurors may feel the same way.

    For all we know this could be a personable woman. But she has continuously made questionable decisio