I know that is funny, but if you are being raped, then i dont think you can perform someone to do that. I dont think you can force someone to do that?

On a historical note, I understand that Teddy Roosevelt considered the concept of "voluntary motherhood" to be "race suicide." Some cultures are just resistant to change.

Bissey has said in his account that he saw them all coming out from 12:20 to 12:30.

"I went inside to take a shower. And when I came out, this entire alley was full of men kind of yelling, and I overheard a lot of talk about getting money back and the money they'd spent or whatever. And the young women were back in the car in front, and one of the young men was leaning into the driver's side door, speaking with her. But at that point, the situation seemed to calm down a little bit, and they were able, I guess, to convince one of the girls to go back inside.

And that's at the point where I overheard her talking about going back and getting her shoe. So the young ladies went back into the house, and at that point, nobody was out in the alley. The situation seemed pretty calm.

BUt he did also give a time with which he saw all of this. And what time was this?

12:20 TO 12:30 a.m.: Tuesday, March 14, Bissey hears voices in the alley beside the house. At least two men are discussing money, one saying, "It's only $100." Bissey sees a man leaning into the window of a car parked outside the house. One of the women he saw earlier gets out of the car and says she needs to get her shoe. She walks to the back door of the house.

Supamike, I'm not saying I believe this accuser but their was plenty of time from 12:04 until 12:20 for this to occur. If Seligmann's cell phone records pan out I'd say he's off the hook. I can't imagine why he made 3 calls 2 minutes apart and then called a taxi while there were strippers in the house though.

Supamike, I'm not saying I believe this accuser but their was plenty of time from 12:04 until 12:20 for this to occur. If Seligmann's cell phone records pan out I'd say he's off the hook. I can't imagine why he made 3 calls 2 minutes apart and then called a taxi while there were strippers in the house though.

I forget which timeline I was looking at, but it said something like "There were no photos taken between 12:10 and 12:30" That last photo mentioned with the strippers was at 12:03 (almost 12:04). So there are photos between 12:03 and 12:10, apparently just not ones involving the strippers. That gap with party photos but no stripper photos doesn't really help either side unless they contain one of the accused..

I know that there are those who think that whatever comes out of the defense in this case is a lie, and what the DA says is pure truth.

"A half truth is a whole lie"

If the judge doesn't surpress the identification, then I'd expect to see a motion to dismiss as the next filing by the defense and it might just be granted.

The accusations in combination wit the medical report already pass the threshhold necessary to force a trial on the merits.

When lawyers show little concern for the appearance of forthrightness (never mind being forthright), I always interpret that as a hint that they do not believe in their clients. And that somewhere in their subconscious minds they are hoping, for the good of society, to find a way to lose their case.

The idea that defense attorneys lose cases because they secretly wish to see their clients go to jail is a Hollywood fantasy.

You seem to believe that slleged crime victims have the right to a trial, but in real life that's just not generally true.

We have heard from the defense that the accuser had "a major grin". We have heard from the defense that accuser was substantially impaired before she got to the party. We have heard from the defense that one of the two suspects wasn't even at the party. Do these statements serve the defendants' interests? What reasoning person does not immediately think "consciousness of guilt" when faced with transparent used-car salesman-style manipulations such as these?

Do these statements serve the defendants' interests?

None of these things have yet to be proven to be a lie from the defense. How would they be doing the players any dis service, if they are trying to show their innocence?

According to Roberts, who was interviewed last week by NEWSWEEK, the boys gave each of them mixed drinks. Roberts says she did not drink hers, but the other dancer did, knocking her cup over after finishing half her drink, then imbibing Roberts's. Roberts said that she thought the other woman arrived sober. But when the two began their strip show around midnight, the other woman began having trouble. "She started stumbling," recalled Roberts. "When I think back on it, she had a glassy look in her eyes." Roberts says she "gave her a look that said, 'C'mon, girl, what's going on?' "--but got no response.

Jason Bissey, who lives next door to the university-owned house, said Thursday that he had a clear view of the accuser's arrival and that she did not appear to be impaired. He said he saw her walk up a long alley to the rear of the lacrosse house, then talk to the other woman hired to dance before entering the home.

"They were both totally lucid. [The accuser] was not impaired in any way, I remember clearly," Bissey said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up."

"Before she went to the party she was not intoxicated, she was not drinking," Jackie said. "There's a great possibility that when she went to the party, she was given a drink and it was drugged."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was talkative and friendly and smiling, and definitely--we talked for several minutes, you know, normal conversation. We were getting to know each other. She was fine. She was absolutely fine.

COSBY: Did she seem that she had been on drugs or drinking?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not at all. She did not seem like that at all. COSBY: Are you surprised that they're saying that, Look, maybe she arrived, you know, banged up and bruised? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I mean, like I said, I just didn't notice anything. There was nothing overtly banged up or bruised about her, or I would have noticed it.

COSBY: How much of a contrast was her behavior from when she arrived to when she left? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was very different. She was different from the person that I met in the beginning of the night. COSBY: A 180? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. At least.

"What does it mean that she was intoxicated?" said Nifong. "Just as an example--speaking hypothetically--if I had a witness who saw her right before this and she was not intoxicated, and then I had a witness who said that she was given a drink at the party and after taking a few sips of that drink acted in a particular way, that could be evidence of something other than intoxication, or at least other than voluntary intoxication," Nifong told NEWSWEEK. "There are many explanations for someone appearing to be intoxicated," he said. Asked if he had any evidence suggesting this scenario took place the night of the alleged rape, Nifong responded, "I don't have any evidence that I want to talk to you about right now." Still speaking hypothetically, he went on to say that depending on the circumstances, an alleged victim's intoxication might make her a more credible witness.

The date rape drug scenario seems to be gaining some steam:

"Apparently the "second stripper charged with embezzling $25,000" changed her story etc."