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Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the Lacrosse Players

Last week I questioned the accuser's reported photographic identification of the accusers:

The D.A. said the accuser last week, three weeks after the incident, was able to identify one attacker. Reports are it was from a photo lineup.

Who wants to bet the only persons in the lineup were Duke Lacrosse players? If it didn't contain any foils (persons resembling her description of the perpetrators who have nothing to do with events of that evening) it's a bad lineup. One of the four key rules in proper eyewitness identification procedures is that the lineup must contain known innocents.

Defense lawyers in the case are asking the same questions. Let's examine the issue. Here are the suggested guidelines of the North Carolina Actual Innocence Commission on eyewitness evidence.

Information used by the Commission in reaching its recommendations included the U.S. Department of Justice research report, Eyewitness Evidence, A Guide for Law Enforcement (October 1999); the New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice training manual, Attorney General Guidelines for Preparing and Conducting Photo and Live Lineup Identification Procedures (August 2001); a survey and study of the identification procedures currently followed by North Carolina's law enforcement; and presentations and consultations by experts ....

[Disclosure: I was a member of the task force that created the D.O.J. research report, Eyewitness Evidence, A Guide for Law Enforcement (October 1999). The report was published by the the National Institute of Justice, which is the research arm of the Justice Department. The task force was mostly comprised of police, prosecutors and psychological researchers, but it did include a small number of defense attorneys. We met for two years in cities around the country to draft the report. Subsequent task forces created training manuals to teach police departments around the country how to use the guidelines.]

As widely accepted as the guidelines are, it is important to remember that they are not binding on law enforcment. They are "best practices."

The recommendations cover the most important aspects of "best practices" in witness identification procedures; however, they leave the details of implementation of these practices to the discretion of law enforcement. The recommendations made herein are not intended to create, do not create, and may not be relied on to create, any rights, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law by any party in any matter civil or criminal. Jurisdictional or logistical conditions may preclude the use of particular procedures.

According to the Greensboro, NC News Record, North Carolina state law does not specify how lineups are to be conducted.

Back to the "foils" I mentioned above, also called "fillers." As I wrote in this 1997 article, Could This Happen to Your Spouse or Child?

In any lineup or photo spread procedure, the suspect must not stand out. There must be fillers and distracters, meaning innocent persons who match the description of the suspect.

The North Carolina Actual Innocence Commission guidelines, linked above, recommend:

e) Include a minimum of seven fillers (non-suspects) per photo identification procedure and five for live lineups.

... g) Fillers should resemble the witness's description of the perpetrator in significant features (face, profile, height, weight, build, posture, gait, voice, specific articles of clothing, etc.) or, in the case where a composite is used, based on their resemblance to a composite. If the perpetrator was described as having an unusual identifying mark, all fillers should have similar markings or all lineup members should have similar coverings over the described area.

So, was the Duke lacrosse players' accuser shown only photos of Duke lacrosse players? If so, it's a bad lineup. Was she shown the photos one at a time or in batches? If the photos were not shown one at a time, called sequentially, the lineup is suspect. Was the accuser told before looking at any pictures that the suspect might or might not be in the lineup? Was the person who administered the lineup unaware which photo was the suspect? If not, it's again a bad line-up.

Does this mean the accuser's identification will be suppressed in court? No. But it does mean the defense will use a psychological expert like Gary Wells (who along with Elizabeth Loftus was the expert I used in the McVeigh trial) to explain the principles of eyewitness identification and memory to the jury so they can determine what weight to place on the accuser's identification.

Update: The defense received a copy of the lineup details Friday. Sure enough, the only photos shown were of Duke lacrosse players.

Comments are now closed , you can continue the discussion here.

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    Sounds like the identification process was videotaped: mercurynews.com
    Meanwhile, defense lawyers have yet to receive from Nifong copies of a video and a report of the process investigators used for the woman to identify players she has accused of attacking her. "We've been told there is a video of the identification process, and in my opinion we should have it by now," Sutton said.


    Thanks IMHO, it will be very telling when that comes to light. For all we know, they did it the right way. If they did, the next question will be, did she identify these guys because they are rapists or because they were the ones who issued the racial slurs or tried to take her money?

    What is the accusers name. Does she have a name. Most people do have names. Or if we find out is it policy to keep it "Our Big Secret" like we would be doing with our five year old. SSSH don't tell.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#4)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:11:09 PM EST
    TalkLeft, We had some interesting timeline discussion at the end of the other thread. Do you have any insight? Thanks

    She has a name and although I have learned it from the internet, I have decided not to publish it. TalkLeft will continue to analyze the media reports and legal filings in the case but will not do original reporting. If someone posts the name in comments, I hope someone will let me know so I can delete it.

    Teresa, I'll go check the other thread and weigh in. Thanks.

    As for the original content being tried in the Media that would give the Accuser the advantage. Being that any Accuser can Accuse any Male that deems fit for whatever reason. Here we have agressive White Males known for violence and a Black Accuser who Jesse Jackson has given Monetary Support. Suppose Jackson has some racial agenda tied to this seems how he hates White People.

    Furillo
    Suppose Jackson has some racial agenda tied to this seems how he hates White People.
    Jesse Jackson is an opporunist, more than a racist.

    If she remembers their features and faces so well, I just wonder whether there's any police document earlier that should have contained her description of the physical features of her attackers? Isn't a description of the suspect's feature one of the questions that the police ask first in an investigation?

    She has a name and although I have learned it from the internet Are you sure it's correct? I am told that there's rumours on the internets; and what you're reading is wild speculation. /Sorry, I suffer from BDS.

    Ok, I checked Bissey's timeline. He saw 2 women being greeted by the guys at 11:50. If Kim arrived at 11 and the accuser at 11:30 (this is per the player's attorney) then why were they walking to the back of the house together at 11:50. They did not arrive at the same time and they weren't together. Someone dropped the accuser off. I think they were returning after being coaxed to come back in. Why isn't the time before midnight being discussed by anyone?
    No one is talking about the time before 12:00 becuz it was already said that both of them did not enter the house until midnight for the first time. I have not seen anything that has the other dancer there earlier. But I agree something is wrong there. I am sticking with the timeline from 12:00 to 12:50, I dont see any other time it could of taken place. We know that they did not enter the house until after midnight for the first time. We know the accuser did not get there until 11:45. I dont know where it changed to 11:35, that to me is new. I am wondering how some people can arrive, and not enter for 25 minutes later...Maybe they were discussing money or something else, but I would like to know.

    Dont know too many sistas with that kind of name...lol But okay we will go with that...

    Duke, like other universities, publishes team rosters and photos on their Website. The men's lacrosse team roster has been removed but depending on the timing of its removal, could have been used by the accuser as a tool to pick out faces from the party before identifying them from the lineup.

    Involuntary Intoxication? The defense attorneys have admitted she was given a drink when she arrived at the party. Her cousin said she did not drink before the party. Nifong has intimated she may have been slipped something in a drink. The second dancer noted she went from sober to wasted in less than an hour. If she was drugged and if she was sexually assaulted, she could have problems identifying her attackers.

    PB that was a good time, and the only time that you may be able to fit a rape into that time. But still there are many holes in that 20 minute span. We know from other sources the Reade Seligmann could not have been a part of the rape from 12:10 to 12:30. Also we still have Bisseys claim. BUt I do see how you have moved everything back. But there is a problem with moving the times back... Its not based on the photos..it is based on watches that were in sync with the camera...So this makes the photos time accurate... Also you can go back and reconcile the those times with the ATM reciepts, and restaurant reciepts and dorm swipes... Also it seems that Bisseys time fit well also into those timelines... Lastly, where was the 2nd dancer in your timeline?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#16)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:00:57 PM EST
    Re: the timeline. From the Newsweek article linked above. "When presented with a detailed timeline of the night offered by the defense, the second dancer told NEWSWEEK through her attorney that it was not accurate." "But Simeon told NEWSWEEK that his client in fact rejects the defense's version of events. "I've shown their story line to my client and she says there's a lot that's wrong with it." So maybe there will be evidence that the dancers arrived closer to 11:30 than 12:00. Someone in the prior thread stated that the defense attorney's were claiming the 2nd dancer arrived earlier around 11:15am. That's the first I've heard of such an early arrival and that seems suspect to me.

    Yes, I'm sure the one site I viewed it on is correct. I'm pretty good with the Lexis Nexis databases. So, other sites may be reporting incorrectly, but the one I viewed had it right. And that's all I'm going to say, I'm not even going to link to the site.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#18)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:03:47 PM EST
    No one is talking about the time before 12:00 becuz it was already said that both of them did not enter the house until midnight for the first time. I have not seen anything that has the other dancer there earlier.
    How do we know when they entered? Why would Bissey see them enter at 11:50 when Kim arrived at 11:00 and the accuser at 11:30 separately? The arrival times for the women are per a captain's attorney on Rita Cosby. I will see if the transcript is up yet. It is certainly possible that the disagreement and the return to the house could have happened before midnight when the pictures show them dancing

    Teresa posted:
    Why would Bissey see them enter at 11:50 when Kim arrived at 11:00 and the accuser at 11:30 separately?
    Bissey's times are estimates. Maybe Kim got there early and waited in her car for the other dancer. Here's the first I've seen of Finnerty's alibi: Lacrosse players' alibis not 'foolproof'
    Finnerty contends he was at a Mexican restaurant near Ninth Street, several blocks from 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., where the party and alleged rape occurred.


    Hi Teresa, I agree that that the 2nd dancer did say she entered at a later time. Maybe sh chose not to go in until the other dancer arrived. That may be based on a money agreement by the escort service. But we know for a fact that the accuser did not show up til 11:45. Now saying they entered at 11:50 is a good time. Showing the first phots at 12 would still be appropriate. But we can agree then that no rape occured before midnight. inmyhumbleopinion, It was said by the DA, and from the accuser that she identified her assailants with 100% certainty. To say she was drugged and cant remember is once again going to go to her credibility. Let me tell you how the defense is leaning here. After listening to a defense lawyer on MSNBC, is they have gathered evidence to go against what the cousins says regarding her activities before sh arrived. They seem not to wait until they see the toxicology report for her. And if the DA has her being drugged, then they have to show what she was drugged with, and by whom. Its a problem for the prosecution.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#22)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:37:03 PM EST
    supamike, it probably doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure those guys didn't rape her. But I'm not 100% sure. I've spent the past hour looking for the transcript of the attorney who said the accuser arrived 30 minutes after the first dancer at 11:00. It was dark outside during the interview so I know it wasn't Abrams. It is the black attorney who represents one of the captains. I think it might have been on On The Record on Fox (yuck) because if you watch the replay tonight at 3:00 eastern, the former DA speaks of this as well. You are probably right about the first dancer waiting outside for the other's arrival but we really don't know for sure. I also found an article by the National Institute of Justice that says that DNA results can come back inconclusive when there is gang rape and between that and the timeline question it made me start thinking again. But my brain tells me that those attorneys wouldn't have stuck their necks out about the results if they hadn't been positive of them. Just some stuff to think about. I guess I just have trouble comprehending someone making up such a terrible story and putting themselves through this. I know it happens but I can't relate to that at all.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#23)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:40:14 PM EST
    We just missed each others posts. If it happened I think it was also after they re-entered the house. I'm just not sure that they weren't re-entering at 11:50. Have a good night and I'll think some more on this sad mystery tomorrow.

    This is what I believed to be said earlier that the DA himself said that the rape took place after the women re-entered the house, not before. Link [links must be in html format, see instructions in comment box. I fixed this one but future ones will be deleted.]

    Hi SupaMike, You wrote:
    But there is a problem with moving the times back...Its not based on the photos..it is based on watches that were in sync with the camera...So this makes the photos time accurate...
    The timeline I offered up accepts the timestamps applied to the photos by the defense attorneys. What I "move back" is the times assigned to Bissey's claims. The assertion that Bissey saw the women enter the house at 12:00 has always been suspect, for three reasons. 1) We don't have it in Bissey's own words. It comes from a newspaper's recreation. 2) There is allegedly a photograph of the students watching the strippers in mid-performance at 12:00. 3) It is not clear to me that Bissey can actually see the back door from his porch. So when he talks of ANYONE entering or leaving the house, he may actually only be interpreting that. He may only be seeing people go around back. You wrote:
    Its not based on the photos..it is based on watches that were in sync with the camera...So this makes the photos time accurate...
    I don't make it a habit to trust defense attorneys. We are told that the photos come from multiple cameras, which means multiple clocks. We are told that in at least one of the photos a watch could be used to synchronize, but we don't know how that was done, or why it would impact the analysis of other cameras.. In short, we are not told nearly enough details to actually validate any individual timestamp offered by the defense. The claim that no photos were taken between 12:04 and 12:31 has also not been validated. The photo expert used by the defense is not an independent witness. That's important. You wrote:
    Lastly, where was the 2nd dancer in your timeline?
    She hasn't said yet. That's why I consider her the rosetta stone of the case. We know she has a problem with the defense attorney's characterization of her statements, but we don't know the details of that complaint.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#25)
    by peacrevol on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 07:52:15 AM EST
    I wonder about this bissey dude. How does he know what time all of this happened. I mean either he's the nosiest neighbor on the planet or he's full of crap. I dont know how he could see them pull up and see them go in 20 minutes later and then see them leave later and know that each showed up separately or together, whichever the case may be. I just dont think we can really put much faith into what he says.

    Interesting, the second woman changed her opinion after she was picked up for parole violations, now that she is publicly saying that she believes the rape happened the da is doing her favors (so it seems).
    Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 _ eight days after the party _ on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.
    On Monday, the same day a grand jury indicted lacrosse players Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, a judge agreed to a change so that Roberts would no longer have to pay a 15 percent fee to a bonding agent. District Attorney Mike Nifong signed a document saying he would not oppose the change.
    "It seems she is receiving very favorable financial treatment for what she is now saying," Thomas said.
    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/college/3809610.html

    I've read that Finnerty was not at the party when the women were dancing, but I don't know if that meant during their 4 minute performane or the whole time the women were at the party. His alibi during the time the rape could have occurred is that he was at a Mexican restaurant. I've also read he isn't in any of the defense's photos. The second dancer is now saying she saw him at the party. At what point in the party, we don't know. Second dancer at Duke lacrosse party questions her doubts of accuser
    Roberts said Thursday she does not remember Seligmann's face, but said she recalls seeing Finnerty -- whom she described as the "little skinny one." "I was looking him right in the eyes," she said.


    GUNSHY posted:
    Interesting, the second woman changed her opinion after she was picked up for parole violations, now that she is publicly saying that she believes the rape happened the da is doing her favors (so it seems).
    What did she say before then? I know she said the accuser didn't tell her she was raped, but she also says she couldn't tell her where she lived. If Kim had been able to drop the accuser off at her house my guess is whatever hapened at 610 N. Buchanan would never have been reported to police.

    The time line could fit together something like this... Assume the accuser arrived at 11:30, danced for a bit and left. The guys went to the car and asked them to come back in and they did at 11:50. They danced again around midnight as the pictures show and stopped at 12:03. Accuser is yanked into the bathroom at 12:04 and attacked till 12:20. She goes outside and then tries to get back in around 12:30 to retrieve the stuff she left in the house. Seligmann bails from the house at 12:14. Just where is Kim and what is she doing while accuser is being attacked?

    The photo expert used by the defense is not an independent witness. That's important.
    So i am guessing that if the times on the photos are accurate, then that would definitely put the times from 12:10 to 12:30 hard to accept right? Especially for Seligmann. and it seems that Finnertys alibi is coming around now too... Also have you noticed how intact the clothes of the accuser taken at 12:30? That to me does not look like a woman who had been raped. Also her actions dont seem to be like a woman who was raped either.

    I wonder about this bissey dude. How does he know what time all of this happened. I mean either he's the nosiest neighbor on the planet or he's full of crap. I dont know how he could see them pull up and see them go in 20 minutes later and then see them leave later and know that each showed up separately or together, whichever the case may be. I just dont think we can really put much faith into what he says.
    Bissey is a key witness in this case. He has no reason to lie. I dont know why everyone seems to want to take away his account, and his account is the least bias of all the accounts. And what I see happening is people are deciding to do away with his account becuz it does not fit what their speculative timelines. We cant do that. Even if Bissey had a reason to lie, there would be no reason to discount his account.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 09:26:24 AM EST
    That to me does not look like a woman who had been raped. Also her actions dont seem to be like a woman who was raped either.
    I wouldn't know. I have never been in the position to have seen a woman who has just been raped. Is this your empathetic view again? Common sense? Or just personal experience?

    supamike posted:
    Especially for Seligmann. and it seems that Finnertys alibi is coming around now too...
    How do you figure that? I think Finnerty's alibi needs a lot of help. nypost.com
    The lawyers also say dozens of time-stamped photographs that have emerged from that night -- at least one of which showing the victim smiling -- exonerate Seligmann's co-defendant, Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, L.I., because he does not appear in any of the shots.
    And everyone else at the party does? Maybe he was in the bathroom.

    What did she say before then? I know she said the accuser didn't tell her she was raped, but she also says she couldn't tell her where she lived. If Kim had been able to drop the accuser off at her house my guess is whatever hapened at 610 N. Buchanan would never have been reported to police.
    DURHAM, N.C. -- At first, a stripper who performed at a Duke University lacrosse team party doubted the story of a colleague who told police she was dragged into a bathroom and raped.
    I also read that the defense attorneys talked with her and she told them that she didn't believe a rape had occurred. Doesn't it seem like a huge coincidence that she is picked up a few days after the party for a parole violation on a crime that happened five years ago?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#35)
    by chew2 on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 09:57:46 AM EST
    Re: the timeline. I've always taken Bissey's timeline as only approximate or estimates. Are there any reports that he checked his watch or otherwise verified his time estimates (perhaps by what he was watching on TV). I'm not aware of any? I saw a report attributed to Fox news that a defense attorney for one of the team captains is claiming that the accuser arrived at 11:35pm. The defense is claiming that the second dancer arrived half an hour earlier. Is it possible that the defense photo's began after the dancer's were persuaded to return to the house.

    GUNSHY posted:
    I also read that the defense attorneys talked with her and she told them that she didn't believe a rape had occurred.
    Her opinion changed? She's doubting her initial doubts? I think her first opinion was based on the accuser's demeanor in the car and the fact that she did not tell her she was raped. In this last article she describes the accuser as "passed out" when the players are calling them names, but I think I can hear her sobbing in both 911 calls. And she is described as incoherent:
    Roberts said the woman was sober when they arrived at the house. But by the time the party was over, she said the accuser was too incoherent to tell her where she lived, let alone that she had been rape
    GUNSHY posted:
    Doesn't it seem like a huge coincidence that she is picked up a few days after the party for a parole violation on a crime that happened five years ago?
    Once she gave a statement, they may have run a check to see if she had a record or outstanding warrants. As for serving the warrant earlier, they may not have known where she lived until they questioned her in this case.

    I've always taken Bissey's timeline as only approximate or estimates. Are there any reports that he checked his watch or otherwise verified his time estimates (perhaps by what he was watching on TV). I'm not aware of any?
    Bissey has said that he was sending out emails while this was going on, and he was going back and forth from his computer and saw the times on his computer. During his televised interview, he was very sure about his times.

    chew2
    Is it possible that the defense photo's began after the dancer's were persuaded to return to the house.
    I've thought about that - maybe Bissey missed their first entrance into the house and actually saw them after being coaxed back in at midnight, but, as described by the defense team, the dance scene photos show Kim reaching out to slap someone for the broom comment about 12:04. This is what Kim says prompted them to leave. And Bissey did say he saw them exit and being coaxed back in 20-30 minutes after he saw them arrive. Did they come back twice? And what where they doing inbetween the 12:41 photo of the accuser in the car and them drving off about 11 minutes later? Did the accuser go back into the house? The cab driver's story must fit into this time slot. He saw Kim walking to the car. Kim said she could have left at anytime, but didn't want to leave the accuser behind. Did she mean when the accuser was in the house alone or passed out on the porch? I think Bissey's best time anchor is when the police arrived at 12:55. Unless he has an achor for when he saw the women arrive, the times that work backward from 12:55 would be more accurate than the earlier events. supamike posted:
    Bissey has said that he was sending out emails while this was going on, and he was going back and forth from his computer and saw the times on his computer. During his televised interview, he was very sure about his times.
    Maybe they've checked the times those e-mails were sent.

    And everyone else at the party does? Maybe he was in the bathroom.
    LOL! Good one.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#40)
    by Tom Maguire on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:34:48 AM EST
    From 9:18 AM, where IMHO posted this, from the account of the Second Dancer on Finnerty: Roberts said Thursday she does not remember Seligmann's face, but said she recalls seeing Finnerty -- whom she described as the "little skinny one." In fact, just looking down that years class of players, Finnerty was notably average - the "little skinny one" was 5' 9" 155 lbs Loftus, who, we should note, was all-conference in soccer and basketball and all-county in lacrosse in high school. Bring on Alan Iverson! "I was looking him right in the eyes," she said. Really? From this year-old press release, Finnerty was 6' 3" and 195 pounds. Allow for "program inflation" (every athlete gets bigger in the listed program), add a year in the Duke weight room, and tell me that, even if he is 6' 1" and 185, he is a "little skinny one" that she was looking in the eye.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:48:54 AM EST
    Motives?
    Also Thursday, 5W Public Relations, a New York firm that specializes in "crisis communication," distributed an e-mail signed "The 2nd Dancer," and Ms. Roberts confirmed she had sent it after learning that The A.P. knew her identity. "I've found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in the country," she wrote. "I'm worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage."


    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#42)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:49:57 AM EST
    and tell me that, even if he is 6' 1" and 185, he is a "little skinny one" that she was looking in the eye.
    TM, To say that you look someone in the eyes does not mean that you are standing toe-to-toe and looking at then level in the eyes. You may have something on the "little skinny one", though. However, Colin does have a boyish look to him and does, in fact, appear "skinny" in photos I have seen of him.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#43)
    by Teresa on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:55:38 AM EST
    I don't know how to link on this site but I just read the affidavit for the search warrant to the two dorm rooms. According to it, the accuser arrived at 11:30 and danced for a few minutes before the remarks made them leave. This is at least the timeline the police are working on. The affidavit is on WRAL.com's site. So maybe Bissey saw them returning to the house at 11:50 rather than arriving?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#44)
    by chew2 on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:56:43 AM EST
    Re: skinny Finnerty. I recall seeing him listed as 5'9" tall and 155 lbs on one of the team rosters. The reason I remember is that he was one of the smallest on the team, who all averaged around 6 ft. and he had been arrested for fighting. The Finnerty pics at the arraignment make him look pretty skinny to me, especially in the face. Maybe we should verify his true height and weight. Re: "looking him in the eyes". Maybe he was sitting down.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:58:40 AM EST
    and maybe she was on his lap giving him a lap dance, square in the eye look from that angle.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#46)
    by chew2 on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 11:01:25 AM EST
    issey has said that he was sending out emails while this was going on, and he was going back and forth from his computer and saw the times on his computer.
    Interesting. Did he reconstruct the times afterwords by looking up his old sent emails? Or is he claiming he paid attention at the time and remembered them 1-2 weeks later when he was first interviewed by the press. And is his computer clock accurate?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#47)
    by Teresa on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 11:09:58 AM EST
    Another thing about the affidavit, it lists computers on it but they didn't take any computers from the rooms. I'm confused. Where are their computers?

    13 Collin Finnerty ATTACK 6-3 175 So. Garden City, N.Y. (Chiminade)
    Skinny? Yes, definately. Little? Not so much. There are a bunch of players shorter than Finnerty, some much shorter (the shortest is 5'-9"), although in her view "little" is probably relative to the other guys at the party, and we don't know if any of the "littler" guys were there...

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 11:16:54 AM EST
    Chew2, From an earlier thread, imho, posted a roster On it he is listed:
    13 Collin Finnerty ATTACK 6-3 175 So. Garden City, N.Y. (Chiminade)
    I would say he would qualify as an atheletic skinny.

    Peaches posted:
    To say that you look someone in the eyes does not mean that you are standing toe-to-toe and looking at then level in the eyes. You may have something on the "little skinny one," though.
    However, Colin does have a boyish look to him and does, in fact, appear "skinny" in photos I have seen of him.
    I agree, Peaches. In the papers he was listed as 6'3" 175 lbs. "Little" also doesn't have to mean short: heraldsun.com
    The second dancer then got into a conversation with the lacrosse players, which included hurling racial insults about their manhood, the players told their lawyers.


    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#51)
    by chew2 on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 11:31:45 AM EST
    SUO, my memory was wrong on Finnerty. that's the team roster I recall looking at.

    It was the defense team's tactics that got Kim to reconsider her opinion that that a rape did not occurred. They were touting her as supporting the defense timeline and announcing that she didn't belive a rape had taken place. They just don't know when to shut up.
    "If they're innocent, they will not go to jail," she said. But, she added, "If the truth is on their side, why are they supporting it with so many lies?"


    It was the defense team's tactics that got Kim to reconsider her opinion that that a rape did not occurred. They were touting her as supporting the defense timeline and announcing that she didn't belive a rape had taken place. They just don't know when to shut up.
    That is not true, the defense spoke to the 2nd dancer first. Her original story was that she thought no rape could have occured.

    Anybody want to give me a quick training on how to post a link in html?

    I am still waiting for the first person who ties the accuser to 9/11 or terrorists. When good boys rape bad girls the bad girls should accept it and go away. I forgot, in spite of the fact that one is a gay basher, many of them are underage drunks, wild parties, and many other allegations, they are not good boys they are perfect boys and incapable of raping a bad girl. I cannot believe the lenghts being taken to tear down the prosecutions case before it is presented. I was neutral at first and didn't know which story was correct. But the defense appears to be afraid to go to court and are trying to bully the accuser and prosecution into dropping the case before trial with hearsay evidence, rumors, innuendos, etc.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 12:38:30 PM EST
    supa, cut and paste the url in the box here and then highlight it. After highlighting it, click on URL and repaste it into that box and presto you have an active link. There is probably an easier way but that way works for me.

    supamike, I only learned recently myself. In baby steps, no offense: -highlight your URL -copy the URL ("edit" then "copy" -highlight the word in your comment that you want to be the link -click the "URL" button above the comment box -hold down the "ctrl" button and then type "v" -click "Preview" below the comment box Anyway, that's how I do it...

    thanks everyone!

    Anybody want to give me a quick training on how to post a link in html?
    hit URL button paste link url into box hit OK type out what you want to name your link hit URL button again to close the URL code

    sorry, supa, I forgot the "click OK" step.. -highlight your URL -copy the URL ("edit" then "copy" -highlight the word in your comment that you want to be the link -click the "URL" button above the comment box -hold down the "ctrl" button and then type "v" -click "OK" -click "Preview" below the comment box

    I posted:
    It was the defense team's tactics that got Kim to reconsider her opinion that that a rape did not occurred. They were touting her as supporting the defense timeline and announcing that she didn't belive a rape had taken place. They just don't know when to shut up.
    supamike replied:
    That is not true, the defense spoke to the 2nd dancer first. Her original story was that she thought no rape could have occured.
    Right. Then, they started touting her as their supporting witness for the timeline. She objected and began to wonder why she was being misrepresented. She sensed they were up to some kind of sneaky business.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#62)
    by Lora on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    Without going back and looking stuff up yet again, my recollection is that the second dancer never said unequivocally that a rape had never occurred. My impression was that she doubted it, because the first dancer hadn't mentioned anything about a rape. If I'm wrong here, I would appreciate a link. People here are going to nail the second dancer for wanting to get something good out of a truly rotten situation? No one here would EVER do anything like that, of course, and if we did, how would it automatically mean we were lying about anything we said? Come on. It's a media circus and the public are hungry sharks for this kind of stuff. If everybody would get a life (oops pot meet kettle), there would be no market for this type of thing.

    My impression was that she doubted it, because the first dancer hadn't mentioned anything about a rape.
    That's my recollection as well Lora. And I agree, I see no problem in her profiting in any way she can from this as long as she's completely truthful regarding the facts.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Photo Identifications of the La (none / 0) (#64)
    by chew2 on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 02:17:27 PM EST
    It looks like Nifong really blew the lineup. As I commented before I think be brought these indictments prematurely. "To obtain the identification, Durham police showed the woman a photo array that included only photos of the 46 lacrosse team members, sources said. The woman said she was 100 percent certain that Finnerty and Seligmann were involved and 90 percent certain that a third player was involved." From NBC17.com I always wondered how they could possibly show her the photo's of all 45 players while mixing them in with lots of other photos. Even if she had a good memory that would be very confusing. So it appears they took a shortcut.

    chew2, Here's the link to that article: Defense Questions Photo ID Of Duke Lacrosse Players

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