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Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:48:49 PM EST
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Smoking Gun has the Indictment of the two Duke Lacrosse players. Reading between the lines of this statement from Duke University today, the two indicted players have been suspended.

So, two young men, accused but not convicted, have their faces and names plastered on television screens and in newspapers across the country, are required to post $400,000. secured bonds and get kicked out of school, based on allegations by an accuser who is allowed to retain her anonymity and her privacy.

This is like Alice in Wonderland. Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

As to the Indictments, if you look at the motions to seal them, you will see they were submitted on April 12 and granted by the Court on April 13. The grand jury didn't return the Indictments until April 17.

Also, the DA says in the motion to seal that if the defendants are convicted, the minimum sentence in the mitigated range is 144 - 182 months in jail.

< Reporters File Motions to Quash Libby Subpoenas | Judge: Not All Sex is Reportable Abuse >

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    Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged | 149 comments (149 topical)
    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#1)
    by cpinva on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:07:37 PM EST
    ok TL, so we can expect you to identify the accuser here, right? let's be realistic, the pendulum has swung in the extreme opposite direction in this country, with respect to sex crimes. eventually, i hope, it will come to rest in the middle, where it should be. for the moment, there isn't much these guys can do, other than carry signs around with the accusor's name on it. not sure what good that will do. should they be found innocent, if it ever actually goes to trial, which i'm putting money on never happening, maybe they can sue all parties concerned. probably not. and if they did, the accuser has nothing anyway.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:18:56 PM EST
    From last thread: AZBall:
    Keep in mind it has been proven that wealth has little to do with happiness.
    And it has even less to do with this alleged rape. Chew2:
    Over half of the lacrosse team attended private schools.
    So f**king what!!! Absolutely, utterly irrelevant. You show your true colors. You aren't interested truth or even the facts of the alleged rape. It is just a vehicle for you to feel less insecure about yourself. You just want to see someone who had a different life than you, perhaps one that you wish you had had or have, fall, irrespective of truth. It is pure envy, pure jealousy, outright shameful and downright pathetic. It is appaulling that anyone thinks this case is about wealth. It is sickening that anyone thinks because someone had a privileged upbringing they are presummed guilty. Look in the mirror and admit to yourselves that you not only hope for a fall, but you will have true joy from seeing anyone who has obviously had a different upbringing and lived a different life than you, go through this experience, whether deserved or not. You are pratically wetting your self in anticipation of a fall from grace. You want it so bad, becasue the it will obviously make you feel better about your own pathetic self. THe richer or smarter or better looking they are, the greater the climax. But guess what, no matter what happens in this case, your joy is fleeting as you will still wake up everyday uphappy deep deep down because you are feeling sorry for yourself because everyone else has it better than you. booo hoooo sniff sniff. This is psychology 101 material. Evidently, Horatio Alger is a criminal, not a symbol of success and light of inspiration.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#3)
    by BigTex on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:20:01 PM EST
    Grow up man. Posts get edited for length. She reserves that right up front.
    TalkLeft reserves the right to edit all e-mail and posted comments for content, clarity, and length.
    Source TL - Its become gut-check time. Have you made a decision on whether or not to release the alleged victim's name and photograph? The court is apparently unwilling to offer any protection to the accused here. The court did not issue a gag order. The accused are now fair game to be smeared in the media with at least tacit approval (not in the legal sense) from the court that set bail. This battle shouldn't be played out in the media, with the current irrational sex crazed state the country is in, a media war is inevitable. That being the case, it's better to level the playing field. Hopefully wide circulation of her name and photo will prompt the court to issue a gag order and stop the media circus in its tracks.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:29:49 PM EST
    Have you made a decision on whether or not to release the alleged victim's name and photograph? I don't believe that TL would do that if it was available.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:45:58 PM EST
    TalkLeft has consistently advocated that the rights of the accused be respected, and that's an attitude that I share in large part. But there is nothing particularly illegitimate about this prosecution, and no reason that these people deserve their turn in the Nancy Grace barrel o' justice any less than her other hapless victims. And it seems like a lot of the people (not TL) who are outraged about the treatment of the lacrosse players restrict their outrage to this case, not to the general practice of trial by media. And there's simply no justification for the selective outrage, because it isn't significantly different from the others (apart from having defendants that people with right-wing sensibilities are more likely to sympathize with). Put simply: what are the odds that a person outraged about the treatment of the lacrosse players was equally outraged about the treatment of Michael Jackson (who was acquitted, and whose accuser was at least as unreliable as the one in the Duke lacrosse case)?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#6)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:53:18 PM EST
    TALKLEFT DISCLAIMER REITERATED I don't immediately assume there is an aspect of race involved in these issues, but until I get a satisfactory answer as to TL's rather manipulative handling of the available evidence, I'm going to keep pounding this... relentlessly. Because obviously I and others have uncovered something that without further elaboration leads us to conclude that there is something seriously amiss. If you display aspects of prejudice and bias, much better to have people call you on it, so you're forced to face it and deal with it, as opposed to letting it go unaddressed and unexamined.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#7)
    by Aaron on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:57:35 PM EST
    kth Thanks for helping me to make my point about the racial aspect of this issue. Which I initially discounted to some degree but am definitely rethinking now. PS stop watching Nancy Grace, that garbage has no redeeming social value and will wind up rotting your brain.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:04:48 AM EST
    Aaron see here for when a post of mine has been edited for length. You have made clear your unhappiness of editing your post due to length. Is there any reason you must continue to complain?
    Perhaps you should get the facts before you shoot your mouth off.
    Pot, meet kettle.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#9)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:05:50 AM EST
    Kalidoggie Interestingly, you blast me for making generalizations, then blast me by making generalizations. Do we need to change our meds? True, wealth has nothing to do with their guilt OR innocence. However privilege is privilege. Question: if a heinous crime is alleged from a small group of guys - do we have the right to ask for any upstanding atheletic representative of his university to cooperate with authorities? Do we have the right to ask this of anyone from the community whether they live in privilege or poverty? Do you think that if these guys were poor we'd call them hooligans? Yep. I'm just calling them rich hooligans. We all know they exist - they have the perfect role models. By the way - for all those complaining about how the accused is being protected: her name is all over the internet - just not on sites who care about being shut down. Apparently she's been forced out of her house. That said, it's to be expected and we can't feel any more sorry for her. If there is anyone still drinking the koolaid that nothing torrid happened that night - change your meds. For those of us who reasonably understand that something torrid did happen: remember that the gal has gone on record with her story - one that will undergo scrutiny. There have been 41 boys who were involved who have taken advantage of the system which presumes innocence and protects them (especially those who can afford the advice of expensive counsel). Finally, by the looks of the mansions that those boys come from, I look forward to the gal extracting huge payoffs.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#10)
    by MarchDancer on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:34:10 AM EST
    Am I the only one wondering why on earth these two young men (three very soon says the PA) are being charged with these horrendous crimes if none of their DNA matched?! Of course, we used to try rape suspects without the benefit of DNA testing, but I'm left to wonder: did the PA lie to us? As I court reporter I once sat in on an identification process of a rape suspect. He was so adamant about his innocence, that the victim agreed to appear at his First Appearance behind a blanket with a hole in it to take a look at him. She pulled off the blanket, ran to the man and began crying and hugging him. It's not him, it's not him, oh I'm so sorry you had to be put through this! Do you believe that a PA today would allow his witness/victim to agree to such a drama at the request of the Public Defender? Women were horribly abused first by their rapist/abuser, then again in the courtroom. All of their pasts were to be testified to. So women refused to press charges. Now we've forgotten that there are women who will bring these charges for any number of reasons against innocent men. What if those young men were on scholarships and came from my rural city? $400,000 bail! That's either $40,000 their parents will never see again or...I need some help here. I don't remember all the ways bail can be made. Both sides will pay for this evening of "fun" for the rest of their lives, as will the two children of the single mother dancer. I'm filled with sorrow for all of them and their families.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#11)
    by Aaron on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:36:05 AM EST
    Big Tex I'm far less concerned with the deletions then I am with the underlying motivation for those deletions. The passive aggressive overtones are difficult to overlook in light of the seeming unconscious bias being displayed . Again I and others seem to have perhaps hit a nerve that should be looked at more closely by the owner of this site and those who comment and visit here. I just want to make it totally clear that there seems to be more going on than some are willing to admit or recognize. Lawyers and people concerned with the law should always be interested in seeking the deeper truths which underlie these issues. I'm not interested in continuing to harp on this subject, but if I'm going to singled out for special treatment and then be ignored, that leads me to conclude that I'm most probably on the right track. The truth will out in the end. As long as someone is willing to keep looking for it.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:08:41 AM EST
    Marchdancer, You wrote:
    Am I the only one wondering why on earth these two young men (three very soon says the PA) are being charged with these horrendous crimes if none of their DNA matched?
    No. But the answer has not been hidden from view either. These two young men were positively identified by the accuser. And the prosecutor believes that the fact that dna is not left behind is not an indication that no rspe occurred. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is the way it's getting put. Whether that view is supported by modern forensic experts probably is a question better answered at trial than in private meetings with defense attorneys as a matter of social propriety. The medical technicians who examined the victim found bruising consistent with a rape having occurred. Is that assessment falsified by the absence of dna? We'll know soon enough, but my guess is that those technicians, at present, are still considered witnesses in good standing by the prosecution. For a reason.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:03:28 AM EST
    "Sentence first, verdict afterwards." Uh....not quite. The sentence for the crimes charged is 12-15 years. If the media had not had a field day re: the wealth, race, priviledge etc. issues the names would not be all over the place - there would have been a more quiet investigation. These are serious charges, and while the accused should be considered innocent, they must also defend themselves. As for the school, they have a responsibility to all their students and a reputation to maintain. And they have the right to suspend students in trouble with the law. Heck, other schools are suspending students for saying they are gay. The college near my neighborhood can punish students who park in the neighborhood. The team was already in trouble and it is pretty obvious that despite pressure, the coach had little control. The whole team was drinking underage. And hiring (and being rude to) strippers does not show your respect for women. So I have a hard time thinking of any of these guys as totally innocent. Rape, we'll see. Being obnoxious frat boys who were due for a shock, oh yeah.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:07:45 AM EST
    Poor players, I am so distraught at the abuse they have suffered at the hand of the justice system I am going to leave work and go home and cry. Not really, TL is giving them enough love for the entire world. At best these players are a walk on the wild side and their bad behavior and lifestyles have finally caught up with them. If they are innocent maybe this will be a wakeup call and they will morph into decent human beings. If they are guilty I hope they are convicted, receive max sentences, repent and be welcomed back into society, or fail to repent and rot in hell.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:32:56 AM EST
    Hear that barking sound? This case is now officially a dog. Unless Nifon has some bombshell evidence not yet leaked, this one is over. It is interesting that in this hi-tech world we now live in, that people's whereabouts can be so accurately proven, and in this matter, technology will prove innocence. Also, I was interested to hear the accuser's cousin's comments this morning on Good Morning America. When asked if money played a role in this, she stated that first the criminal proceeding had to conclude before money could be considered. And then she said that the accused wouldn't do this for money since she made a good living as an entertainer. Of course, the money is already flowing. Free tuition, lawyers seeking book deals, interview fees, etc.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:50:25 AM EST
    TL - Despite my deep reservations about what really happened that night, I would prefer you not publish her name. I would definitely view this as a situation where "2 wrongs don't make a right". I am cognizant that these young mens' lives are at stake here, but they have already been indicted and I believe that the judicial process will should play itself out. The amount of negative publicity all of these young men have endured is disgusting and in no way consistent with responsible journalism. I love this site and respect you immensely and irrespective of your decision I will continue to support and visit this site regularly. I for one am appalled at the coverage and the depictions of these men as spoiled elitists. It is funny, I have seen a lot of trashing of "elitists" or "wealthy white kids" and how their entitlement led to this. This form of judgment is as ridiculous as someone asking "where are the values of the accuser and her parents that she would grow up to be an escort/stripper?" The morality sword cuts both ways and being that the upper class represents a small fraction of society it is much easier to blame/hate them. I don't want to know who the woman is any more than I want to know who the men are. This case should never have made national news and these men are forever stained, guilty or innocent.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#17)
    by cowboyx on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:59:25 AM EST
    I'm not interested in continuing to harp on this subject, but if I'm going to singled out for special treatment and then be ignored, that leads me to conclude that I'm most probably on the right track.
    Don't ya think that if you were being censored, all your rants in this thread would be deleted? It makes no sense to try to silence someone and then allow them to rant about it. Use some logic here. Perhaps you should have used those pixels to repost your deleted post into smaller chunks. I'm surprised you have to be told things like that. Regarding pre-sentencing. Yes, punishments are being handed out already during before the day in court. Even with a bondsman, $400,000 bail is a hell of a lot. $60,000 is 15% of this sum...typical bond fee IIRC. But they're Duke students, coming up with 60 grand in a pinch is a cakewalk for their families, I'm sure...'cause wealthy people have bales of $100 bills laying around the estate. Suspension from school, surely that is deserved too, after all, even if they're innocent, they're not since they have the lack of respect for the law to drink underage, and the lack of respect for women to hire them as strippers. But, 90% of all rapes go unreported. How is a statistic formed based on the lack of data to support it? Sex, drinking...they must be punished for their sins, I guess. Thank whatever gods may be that there are people like the TL crew that at least some people understand what the law is supposed to be, that can view things impartially.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#18)
    by ding7777 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:09:57 AM EST
    TL you wrote on a previous thread:
    Libby, the accurate term for the complaining witness in a rape case, which you call "victim" is "prosectutrix." I think "accuser" is an accurate term, since she is not a victim until a jury or court determines she has been raped.
    Does the court/jury decide if she was raped or if the accused was the one who raped her?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#19)
    by Rich on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:11:34 AM EST
    One of the indicted (Finnerty) has a prior from a gay bashing incident (see last week's Washington Blade). Perhaps the other guy also has something that makes him easy to indict. My own guess is that this is one of those cases where no one is an angel. TL is an advocate and is naturally going to look for holes/strategy in the prosecution case. Which is different from being Nancy Grace and wanting everyone hung.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#20)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:13:50 AM EST
    Tl, You're sounding like that yucky Nancy Grace now. Calling for vengeance and appealing to the resentments and prejudices of all the conservative white men. Kalidoggie: I noticed you left out the bit about the two accused living in multimillion dollar homes, and the fact that I stated that I wasn't sure whether wealth had anything to do with them being agressive sobs. And what's with the Horation Alger bs? Thse kids didn't earn anything, they were born with those privileges.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:14:42 AM EST
    If they are innocent
    If they are innocent, it's all ok because they learned a lesson Jade? You seriously underestimate the harm caused by a false rape allegation.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:15:44 AM EST
    Not saying these charges are false, just potentially false.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#23)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:30:45 AM EST
    Don't know if this should be in this thread or the one below. Did Nifong know that Seligman allegedly wasn't at the party but indicted him anyway? If so, he should have more evidence. "We were actually hoping that she would pick names that we know were not at the party, and it would appear she did exactly that," said Kerry Sutton, the lawyer for a team captain.." "A court filing by the district attorney's office on March 23 indicated that Mr. Seligmann was one of five players who investigators had been told were not at the party." NYT

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:50:01 AM EST
    Aaron, get over it. I've had my posts deleted here (for stepping on one of TL's understandable rules) but all in all, TL has one of the more sensible and saner discussion forums around. I've been banned from several sites, right now a well known "moderate" constitutional law professor blogger has taken to deleting my posts at random, as she is so pissed about a joke I made about her and about the questions I ask her on her blog. If having a comment deleted is upsetting to you, then post the entire comment on your own blog, and here, and include a link back to you blog. If TL edits your post, no harm, interested readers can find the entire post back on your site. Have you said anything of substance on this yet?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#25)
    by Lora on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:53:29 AM EST
    Jlv, Wonderful post. TL, Indeed the media circus is shameful. However, as you yourself said, the accuser's name is on the internet. Not hard to find, yes? And while her name and picture aren't out on the front page yet, intimate details of her lifestyle that would be considered damaging to anyone's reputation have been well covered for weeks. You know it's just a short time before her name and face will be out front, and those details connected. Privacy and anonymity? No. Verdict first? Then you should be objecting to Duke's policy toward students accused of a felony. Also, the defense lawyers have done everything in their power to discredit the accuser's story in the press. How's that for verdict first? Forcible rape is a violent crime. What do you think is the appropriate amount of bail? Reminder: 92% of rape accusations are authentic, according to the FBI. While there is variation in the estimated percentages of unreported rapes, the numbers are high and there is back-up for them. Of the number of reported rapes, many fewer actually go to trial. Of those, even fewer result in convictions. I don't have time to look up numbers and sources now, but the trend is real. It's very difficult to be absolutely sure about an ID of a stranger. Whoever reported 100% accuracy, Nifong maybe, was irresponsible in my mind, or else there was another reason for stating it that way. NIfong says there is evidence to support that a rape and assault occurred. Apparently the grand jury thinks so, too. What do we know that proves that wrong? Nothing, yet. So, really, what's the beef?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:04:23 AM EST
    Apparently the grand jury thinks so, too.
    Grand Jury proceedings are a joke. The saying, "Any prosecutor who wanted to could indict a ham sandwich", is unfortunately, not far off the mark.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:07:03 AM EST
    As to the Indictments, if you look at the motions to seal them, you will see they were submitted on April 12 and granted by the Court on April 13. The grand jury didn't return the Indictments until April 17. On the last page, the motion to seal, I certainly see the date of April 12th, but I am not sure where you see April 13th. I see a stamp that indicates they were filed on what looks to me to be April 18th. ?? Can you be more explicit about what you are saying here? I gather you are saying that the process is presumably Grand Jury, submission to court, granting by court; but how unusual or out of line is this? Who actually is supposed to write the indictment and enumerate the charges, the DA or the Grand Jury? What does "granting" actually mean, and why would a court grant the indictments before the Grand Jury "returned" them?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:11:00 AM EST
    Because I swing a low-hanging fruit: Aaron, delusions of grandeur much? On one hand it could be said that the defense is attempting to try this case in the media. Usually we frown upon this kind of behavior. But in this case, who can blame him? Given that the information he is providing the media appears legit (as opposed to creating cockamamie alibis and such) is only compounded by the fact the DA has been belligerent when it comes to reviewing evidence (like the photographs), I think he has no choice.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:14:27 AM EST
    In defense of the Duke policy of suspending students accused of felonies or where a dangerous situation may occur.... In the late 70s, I attended a small college in California. The college re-admitted a student that had withdrawn a year or so earlier for psychological reasons. They knew of his problems when they readmitted him. I do not know of any steps they took to monitor his behavior. I do know that one morning he stabbed and almost killed another student. And I know that it took her a very long time to recover physically, and she eventually withdrew from the school. So Duke's policy is understandable, and almost certainly a product of their attorneys. But I really can't imagine the school doing anything else. I think their suspension is more understandable than the canceling of the season.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#30)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:36:08 AM EST
    JPT, The motion to seal the indictment is made by the DA to the Judge and the order sealing the indictment is granted by the Judge. The order sealing the indictment isn't shown in the smoking gun set of documents far as I could tell so I'm not sure where the April 13 date comes from. Presumably the order itself would have to be sealed otherwise it would defeat the purpose of secrecy. The actual indictment is issued by the grand jury after presention of "evidence" by the DA.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#31)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:39:33 AM EST
    To put the fairness of the Duke suspensions in perspective, I wonder how many here would want Barry Bonds suspended from baseball should he be indicted for perjury.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:51:33 AM EST
    chew: Don't be so quick to equate. If Bonds did in fact perjure himself, it dealt with performance enhancing drugs - which have a direct relation to his on-the-field life. Even though an indictment obviously doesn't equate to a conviction, the case can be made much easier that a suspension would be appropriate. In the Duke case, criminal charges are being sought against (at most) three players. Thus far, only 2 have been indicted. Even so, weeks before the indictments were handed down, the school effectively "suspended" all 47 lacrosse players - even those who were not implicated in the allegations. The Duke administration acted prematurely in an effort to appease certain specific and vocal groups.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:55:52 AM EST
    Does the court/jury decide if she was raped or if the accused was the one who raped her? As I understand it (and IANAL), the jury, as the finder of fact, gets to decide both if a rape occurred and if the accused were the rapists.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#34)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 07:58:55 AM EST
    chew2, Please note the collective public uproar calling for Bonds to disappear from baseball and recant his records. All without a perjury indictment. Also please note that the cases are a bit different, one has to deal with cheating in a sport and the other is a crime of violence. It's right to suspend someone who is suspected of being violent in order to protect the rest of the students.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:03:18 AM EST
    I can imagine how devastating a false allegation of rape can be. However, it sounds like some of these boys need a wake up call. Gay bashing, openly using racial slurs, date rape, underage drinking (both were under 21), and general bad behavior. If they are innocent, or just lucky to weasel out of it, maybe they will reform their bad behavior and do something positive with their life. Without this may be they would have have continued to accelerate their bad behavior and gotten into worse trouble.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:05:06 AM EST
    Jade: So you're saying, in a sense "they had this coming" or "they asked for it"?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:10:03 AM EST
    Kalidoggie, let me respond to your reaction about some people's prejudices against the wealthy. I would definitely say I have a prejudice - I remember a while back on some blog or another it was asked what group do you have a knee jerk prejudice against? My first thought was frat guys, followed by rich people. But this is really not about jealousy. I come from a pretty darn well to do family, as does my husband (like my father-in-law owns a plane kind of wealthy). We both walked away from that lifestyle because we were disgusted by much of what we saw in it. What bothers me about many (obviously not all) rich people I have known isn't that they lived a different life than me, it is the sense of entitlement they carry around with them, especially the children of the wealthy. It is as if they think having more money makes them better people, deserving of the good things in life, and everyone else are just the little people to be used and exploited as they see fit. And the kids of rich people often exhibit the apalling laziness only seen in someone who knows their future is assured, and that the rules everyone else plays by don't apply to them. This is obviously a prejudice, it is not accurate for many, many people, and it is wrong to categorize an entire group, just like any other prejudice. Just wanted to explain that it is not jealousy that is driving anti-rich prejudices. Oh, and in my time living in Durham, and my husband's 6 years at Duke, I met more people who fit my stereotype than at any other time in my life.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:22:56 AM EST
    The team was warned, the coach was warned, yet they continued to have drunken parties, one of which led to these events. While I appreciate TL's protection of the accused, and I understand that the women came to the party (to be paid for dancing scantily clad) of their own accord ... the Duke athletes and their coach bear a large responsibility for creating the situation that has led to these charges. Coach was warned last year on players' conduct By Rocky Rosen, The Herald-Sun April 18, 2006 4:42 pm DURHAM -- A high-level review of the men's lacrosse team's disciplinary records last year prompted Duke's athletics director to warn the coach his team was "under the microscope" and that players needed to improve their conduct, the director said Monday. At the time, the team's reputation nationally was for winning games. Today, the team stands disgraced, with two players indicted on still-undisclosed charges stemming from an alleged gang rape at a team party, the season terminated and the coach forced out of his job. Although the team's reputation for drinking and debauchery has drawn attention since the rape allegation last month, an explicit warning to Coach Mike Pressler about the team's behavior has not been previously revealed. The warning followed a review by Tallman Trask III, Duke's executive vice president, of the team's campus disciplinary records. Trask, who oversees the athletics department, called in Athletics Director Joe Alleva to discuss his findings.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:33:55 AM EST
    Another prime example of how a concerted media campaign can engineer reality for a significant segment of the populace. As with Natalee, O.J, Sam Shepherd, Leopold and Loeb cases like this are so sensational and "sexy" only because the beautiful people - the protagonists of One Life to Live and Survivor are implicated. And we all know how potentially earth shattering that could be. Meanwhile, fifty young Americans and God knows how many Iraqis have died and been maimed in Iraq in the last couple of weeks, our barely elected and barely holding onto reality president is threatening to start another war, and the outcome of elections that could strongly influence the destiny of the nation hangs in the balance. You'd never know it. But, thats just one slobs opinion.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#40)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:41:19 AM EST
    The judge's order sealing the indictment was dated April 13th. Nothing out of the ordinary with that.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:43:21 AM EST
    Chase (such a nice ivy league kinda name, I like it), Seems like they were on a one way road with nothing good at the dead end. With a few exceptions: if you play with matches you will eventually get burned or start a fire. If you overeat and under exercise you will get fat. Have repeat unprotected sex you get pregnant, get a disease, or both. Engage in repeat bad and/or illegal behavior you catch a bullet or a case. At this point it is what it is. I hope young college students (especially athlethes) take heed and let this be an example of what bad behavior can lead to.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:55:57 AM EST
    Can you imagine if,(God forbid) Tom murdered Katie, or, sexier yet, Katie killed Tom after finding out he'd been carrying on a torrid afair with L. Ron Hubbards former personal pilates instructer/astrologer? Aside from the ice caps melting, severe disturbances in the earths magnetic field, and every formally compelling issue of the day evaporating like a diaphanous mirage?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:07:36 AM EST
    Jade: Thank you for complementing my name! I wish I had worked just a little harder in high school and actually attended an Ivy, but that's neither here nor there.
    With a few exceptions: if you play with matches you will eventually get burned or start a fire.
    Wait for it...
    Have repeat unprotected sex you get pregnant, get a disease, or both.
    Wait for it...
    Engage in repeat bad and/or illegal behavior you catch a bullet or a case.
    How about being a stripper? Being an escort? A prostitute? Using your ("blame-the-victim") logic, couldn't you some how say "people that illegally sell sex, either on a stage or in a bedroom, sometimes have the demons of the industry catch up with them"? Where you hope college kids learn their lessons, I hope strippers and prostitutes learn their lessons and get out of the business! Nothing good comes from selling sex!

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#44)
    by narius on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:12:58 AM EST
    should they be found innocent, if it ever actually goes to trial, which i'm putting money on never happening, maybe they can sue all parties concerned. probably not. and if they did, the accuser has nothing anyway. While the accuser has nothing, the city does. So if they are found innocent, they can always sue the city for malicious prosecution.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#45)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:25:49 AM EST
    [people who sell sex] sometimes have the demons of the industry catch up with them"?
    You mean like the increased chances of getting raped? Hopefully, Jesse Jackson comes through with his scholarship offer and the alleged victim will be able to quit her two month job of stripping and escorting, and will be able to devote her full time to her college studies and caring for her kids.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#46)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:30:18 AM EST
    "A court filing by the district attorney's office on March 23 indicated that Mr. Seligmann was one of five players who investigators had been told were not at the party." And now MSNBC shows some of the pictures of the party clearly showing Seligmann there. Just take note of the number of people involved, the level of impairment, lawyers get involved - boys worried about what their parents will think. I'm getting afraid the DA will never be able to sort through all this. That being said, he has a duty to the accuser/victim to proceed.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:42:34 AM EST
    So if they are found innocent, they can always sue the city for malicious prosecution.
    Do juries have a new option when deliberating in criminal cases? I thought juries could find "guilty" or "not guilty"? Is there now an "innocent" option? I didn't think so.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#48)
    by peacrevol on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:01:24 AM EST
    Why do we have to report anyone's name? Why cant it just be a nameless, raceless, faceless story about jane doe accusing tom dick and harry of rape? I just dont see why it makes any difference at all. The class issues and racial issues are either created or magnified by the press to try to earn a few extra $$s.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:07:37 AM EST
    Seligmann's defense looks pretty good - after reviewing his taxi driver's written statement, his ATM receipt, and his cell phone records, it looks like he and a friend (presumably another LAX player) left the party at around 12:19AM or earlier. Supposedly Nifong's requested DNA tests will be coming back today, so maybe there will be some new news today.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    I hear you Jade...it's fairly obvious these aren't choir boys. But being a dirtbag isn't a felony.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:24:41 AM EST
    kdog, funny, they both went to private catholic schools, they very well may have been choir boys. At some point, anyway.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:41:33 AM EST
    Posted by tiger April 19, 2006 10:42 AM So if they are found innocent, they can always sue the city for malicious prosecution. Do juries have a new option when deliberating in criminal cases? I thought juries could find "guilty" or "not guilty"? Is there now an "innocent" option? I didn't think so.
    Boy you sure showed him Tiger. Grrrrrr...

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:44:46 AM EST
    You don't reveal the victim's name because too many rape victims are threatened once charges are filed. And this happens whether the media is involved or not. When supporters of the accused are willing to give up that behavior, publishing names of the accusers will become legitimate. Until then, releasing the names only creates a situation where young women are forced to find protection to participate in the prosecution of an alleged crime. No other type of accuser must endure what too many victims of rape wind up enduring. You can dress this little pig up however you want - Kobe's accuser endured death threats until she relented and dropped charges. How many of us would pursue charges thrust into the circus she met? Who in their right mind would accuse a celebrity, particularly a sports star, of rape now knowing what's going to happen to you? As someone who didn't follow the Duke case, other than the occasional news break segments I saw, the overwhelming impression delivered by the media to the casual viewer is that something very wrong was allowed to happen to these boys. I just heard about the email last night, but the media made sure to make clear that the prosecutor is running for re-election and there was no DNA found on the dancer. What's clear is that something happened - I do not know what it was. Keep the victim's name out of the media until this case is resolved. The only reason to include the name is to begin and endorse the thuggish assaults the accuser will inevitably endure. If the boys are found not guilty, her life will be plenty miserable for a long, long time. As for these boys, other than the horror of being falsely accused, their lives won't suffer in the least. Whether they're found guilty or not, they'll be heroes in an awful lot of corners. Fortunately, their families are well connected, and that will provide everything they need to restore their lives to the affluence and comfort they have always been destined for. Without conviction, ultimately their futures will not be altered.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:00:15 AM EST
    You mean like the increased chances of getting raped?
    Well yes.
    Hopefully, Jesse Jackson comes through with his scholarship offer and the alleged victim will be able to quit her two month job of stripping and escorting, and will be able to devote her full time to her college studies and caring for her kids.
    Hopefully the good Reverend Jackson will come through will a scholarship for more strippers and prostitutes who would like to go to college.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:23:23 AM EST
    I love how people are jumping on the "underage drinking" as evidence of lack of character on the part of the accused. Apparently it is expected that no one will drink until their 21st birthday. Irrespective of the law, who actually believes that drinking is evidence of serious problems? The percentage of highschool students who drink is far north of 50%, never mind college students. It isn't like Natty Lite is consumed solely by Seniors, or that all those liquor stores are there to serve some fraction of 1/4 of the population. Let's be real. A substantial majority of all students, and all people out of highschool but under 21, drink alcohol with at least some frequency. A very substantial portion of that same population use marijuana. It's called the American College Experience. Spring Break, touring Europe, etc. To start hyperventilating over the evilness of consuming alcohol is not only hypocritical, incoherent, and evidence of a lack of perspective, but identifies you as a Dean Wormer type who is completely incapable of engaging in adult society. On to productive discussion... Given the apparent timeline from MSNBC, one accused overlapped at the party for about 15 minutes with the victim. That's not sufficient time for the accuser's narrative to be true. First iceberg hit for Nifong. As to the lack of DNA: if they only did an OB/GYN exam, then it isn't conclusive. If they took other material (such as from under the fingernails), that would be more dispositive, as a rape victim is almost assuredly going to scratch her attacker somehow or collect hair, and therebye have some DNA to collect. So a lack of DNA is likely to create reasonable doubt, while a lack of collection beyond an OB/GYN rape kit is evidence of incomeptence and rush to judgement, and thus reasonable doubt. Second iceberg for Nifong. Things aren't good for the prosecutor. I'm generally supportive of prosecutions, especially the MJ case (past behaviour made the story credible, and the complete whackjobness of the accuser's family went hand in hand with allowing your kid to be anywhere near MJ, so kind of a wash in terms of credibility). This case just looked too much like Tawana Bradley, especially the media jumping in on privilege and Slate's calumnies against lacrosse and all lacrosse players. Given the so very close proximity to the primary, every fairminded person has to take a skeptical view of this circus. Nevermind what you believe about the victim or the accused, a high profile case 6 weeks before a primary and an indictment 2 weeks before the primary, are not ingredients for a thorough, cautious, careful, and rational evaluation of evidence. Somebody needs to hang quickly, and if you can exploit underlying feelings in the electorate, so much the better. This would be the case in any town-gown situation unless there were exceptional ties between the school and the community. Ignore race and class and the motivations and pressure on the prosecutor are the same. I do love the fact that they got $400k bail. Seriously, that's big money for anybody. Though I imagine that both families just put up the house and thus didn't pay a bondsman (upper middle class and up don't pay for bail bonds, we pay bail with either cash or assets).

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:37:54 AM EST
    Chase- I have suggested a fund raising plan for the victim on several occasions here on this site. I wonder of those who are absolutely certain she was assaulted (many on this site) how many are willing to commit to her financially so that she can get therapy for the alleged attack and to help her get out of stripping altogether. I have not seen or heard one progressive caring defender of this woman take up the issue of setting up a fund for her (on this site). Is it that it is merely a talking point for debate and they do not care about the woman personally, or is there a moral stigma with her employment that prevents any of them from stepping up here? I don't think the NAACP should bear the responsibility on their own as the passion this has stirred in defense of this woman surely can translate into a fund to assist her in recovering from this tragedy. Or is this issue merely a talking point to further an agenda and bring attention to how poorly upper middle class white men behave?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:43:19 AM EST
    freaktown, does this mean you are going to contribute $200 to her wellness fund?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:09:40 PM EST
    AZ most of my comment were to Chew2 who is seems more extreme on the wealth issue. J.B.
    This is obviously a prejudice, it is not accurate for many, many people, and it is wrong to categorize an entire group, just like any other prejudice. Just wanted to explain that it is not jealousy that is driving anti-rich prejudices
    . I respect that you at least admit your prejudice. However, "entitlement" or wealthy has nothing to do with this alleged rape. To say so is like saying that because she was poor it was OK to rape her or she deserved. Both are absolutely wrong. Chew2 thinks these boys should be found guilty because their parents or families at some point in time were succesful at what they did and how they grew-up. A logical extntion of this attiutde is to ban all inheritence. This is pathetic jealousy and envy. Evidently, to Chew2, an alleged rape is the precursory to wealth re-distribution.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    Jlv: If a "fund" is so collected and the allegations turn out to be false, why not donate the money to the Duke Lacrosse Booster Club, or a similar scholarship fund for the boys who (should this come to fruition) have had their names and faces raked through the mud?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:21:29 PM EST
    I think that character evidence should work both ways in this case. I think the prior gay bashing should hold weight- a violent crime with a motive involving some sense of superiority and treating a victim worse than an animal. I also think that her history should hold weight- we already know that she is capable of making very poor drastic decisions (the police chase thing) and perhaps she has lied about sexual assault in the past, who knows? This is all extremely relevant. How else is a jury supposed to decide on the likelihood that he/she had a motive to rape/lie? The rape shield law personally bothers me- for one thing, only someone who can afford a big shot lawyer even has a chance to get past it. I would be interested in taking a poll on who thinks Kobe commited a crime. I think the majority feel that he didn't. And yes, "something (bad) happened" that night. I lost some respect for Kobe, but I sure am glad that he will be lighting it up in the playoffs as opposed to rotting in prison somewhere. My point is, Kobe would be rotting in prison somewhere if he didn't have the big money to hire attorneys who could expose the alleged victim's prior sexual exploits and establish a pattern of behavior and a motive that would indicate that the sex was consensual. I think these guys should be afforded the same rights.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:31:59 PM EST
    Chase, that is exactly where I was headed. I think some of the guys may have behaved liked buttheads but until the trial is done, I will work under the assumption of innocence. I have just seen a lot of blowharding here about the victim and zero action. If there is a real concern for this woman and her recovery it would only seem natural to me that those demonstrating such confidence relative to the veracity of her complaints, would also be establishing a fund to help her.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:37:20 PM EST
    Chew2 thinks these boys should be found guilty because their parents or families at some point in time were succesful at what they did and how they grew-up.
    Kali, This is a mischaracterization of what Chew2 stated. The comment was on the economic status of the Lacrosse team. I don't know Chew2's beliefs on the guilt of the accused, but if chew believes the accusers story that she was raped and assaulted by three members of the team, then it would be reasonable to infer that the economic status may have given the players a sense of entitlement leading to a belief that their actions would go unpunished. Chew2's entire post you are refering to is below:
    Apropos of whether the Duke lacrosse team are economically and socially privileged, and not commenting to what extent this is relevant to whether they might me arrogant sobs."Mr. Finnerty and Mr. Seligmann grew up in million-dollar homes in affluent communities and attended all-boys Roman Catholic prep schools." NYT article. You would think they would have gotten a rigorous moral education there. Over half of the lacrosse team attended private schools.blockquote>

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:37:26 PM EST
    Chase, I agree with you being a stripper is also going down a dead end road to trouble. I know of people who did it to get through college, get great jobs, and lose it because clients remember them as strippers and will not take them seriously and want side perks. I always counsel people who consider it by telling them it is a past you can't erase, it will keep coming back to haunt you. Hopefully, she has seen her last day as a stripper and being a Wal-Mart greeter will seem like a better deal.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:42:32 PM EST
    Hopefully, she has seen her last day as a stripper and being a Wal-Mart greeter will seem like a better deal.
    Is that all a college education will get a person these days--Wal-Mart greeter?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:47:20 PM EST
    Here's an interesting take on the future of the case from a Sports Illustrated legal expert:
    SI.com: Will this case go to trial?
    Munson: Yes, probably in February or March 2007. There won't be a settlement. When you're talking about an alibi, you don't have much leeway to negotiate out of case -- 95 percent of criminal cases are negotiated, but this isn't one of those cases. These guys come from wealthy families and have the money to fight it.
    Also Munson puts forth the idea that the 3rd player/accused that Nifong keeps referring to is in negotiations with Nifong to get immunity or leniency for his testamony against the other two players.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:52:09 PM EST
    District Attorney Mike Nifong said Tuesday he also hoped to link a third man to the alleged attack soon, but he said that person had not been "identified with certainty."


    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    I hear you JL. You planning on hanging around TL for another year until the trial starts?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#68)
    by burnspbesq on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:09:53 PM EST
    Dear azbballfan, Your username makes your prejudices plain as day. Please back away from the keg of schadenfreude, and go back to listening to Jim Rome, which seems to be more your speed than the serious discussion of serious issues that folks are trying to have here. Thanks for stopping by, and as the Cameron Crazies like to chant at the end of games, "Drive home safely."

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#69)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:12:13 PM EST
    Thanks Peaches for trying to explain. Kaliedoggie seems bent on dishonestly and purposefully mischaracterizing my statement so he'll have someone to argue with. Best to ignore such dishonest arguments. BTW I think that a sense of entitlement that may come from wealth is only one small component of any possible team attitudes that might, and I emphasize "might", have lead to an assault or sexual assault. The fact that many were drunk (some passed out in the photos), loud and aggressive (based on reports of their prior campus drinking behavior and arrest records), tribal in their goup behavior and loyalites, espressed racist (according to the second dancer, and Bissey), and degrading attitudes towards woman and strippers (the famous email) all were possible enablers of an assault or sexual assault on a black erotic dancer if one in fact occurred that night.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:20:09 PM EST
    Where are todays DNA results? I think the defense lawyers are going to drop one or two bombshells this week, as soon as they get that DNA back. I watched the interviews last night, and they all had smirks on their faces, if I was the DA, I would back away from this thing very fast.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    SUO - I think so, how about you? Chew2 - Interesting theory. What if someone said that the false allegation comes from hatred of the white lacrosse players based on a racist society and anger with being forced into becoming a stripper because these are the very men who will not give her a good paying job when they reach management. Why can't an argument be made that her anger towards men and the wealthy has driven her to seek a pay day that is slightly larger than $250 per session and having to fellate verbally abusive men to make ends meet? Why can't an argument be made that her financial struggles and her theft of a taxi cab and subsequent fleeing and eluding police officers caused her to seek financial gain with a false allegation? Why can't someone ask her father, "where were the family values when raising her that made her choose to become a stripper? As long as the men are going to be stereotyped and presumed guilty, they have the right to question her character and motives. And recently, at least 3 women have falsely accused college athletes of sexual assault that was proven to be completely fabricated as the athletes were smart enough to videotape the encounter and provide the tape to the police. Not a darned soul on this site has any idea who is telling the truth here and the sense of "entitlement" cuts BOTH ways.....

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#72)
    by Lora on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:47:14 PM EST
    Jlv, Maybe I'm missing something here, but I have not seen "certainty" expressed on these boards, with the possible exception of one or two of our most extreme posters. Although folks may have an opinion about the case, there is room for doubt, and people have been pretty careful about how they present their arguments. General, sometimes heated, discussions about rapes and false accusations have occurred here, but IMO they haven't indicated a belief that there was definitely a rape or that the accuser is definitely lying in this case. I for one don't know who is telling the truth. I have an opinion about it, but I am far from certain. That's how I'm interpreting most of the other posts here as well.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#73)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 02:54:10 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, You can make all the fanciful arguments you want. I'll confine myself to the specific facts in this case. I personally have nothing against strippers or escorts. I thnk sex work should be decriminalized. I'm not a big fan of family values, nor am I attempting to raise other people's children. But since you are, why don't you take the parents of Ryan McFadyn and Colin Finnerty to task as well for their hateful behavior. I gather you are one of those politically conservative white males I have been commenting about whose resentment of undeserving black folks and woman bubble so close to the surface in their comments. BTW I have seen very few comments, maybe none, that presume either the team as a whole, or the two accused are in fact guilty of rape. We all know that there are two sides to this.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#74)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 03:29:36 PM EST
    I gather you are one of those politically conservative white males I have been commenting about whose resentment of undeserving black folks and woman bubble so close to the surface in their comments.
    JL? Conservative? I gotta read these threads more often. That's a good one! In my experience, he's fairly competent at pointing out inconsistancies and other faults in an argument, but I wouldn't label him as a conservative. Opinionated, yes! ;-) Wrong? Only, when he points out my faults or inconsistancies. Everyone needs a nice clean label to make them fit into the pre-existing pigeon-holes of someone elses mind.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 03:42:07 PM EST
    Chew2 wrote:
    why don't you take the parents of Ryan McFadyn and Colin Finnerty to task as well for their hateful behavior. [...] BTW I have seen very few comments, maybe none, that presume either the team as a whole, or the two accused are in fact guilty of rape. We all know that there are two sides to this
    You obviously don't count yourself who clearly just stated a presumption of guilty. Ignorance is bliss. Here's how that statement works in court...Objection. Presumes facts not in evidence, improper opinion and prejudicial. Move to strike. Sustained. Limit yourself to the facts, please.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 03:44:43 PM EST
    I correct myself. I mis-read Chew2 post and realized it was the email boy and a reference tot he DC fight. Appologies. See...it is not so tough to admit a mistake.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 04:28:36 PM EST
    Not a darned soul on this site has any idea who is telling the truth here
    The players claim that none of them had sex with the accuser. I'm pretty sure that's the truth, because if it's a lie, it's a stupid and risky lie. If the rape exam had found one drop of semen, or one pubic hair, with a player's DNA, the lie would be exposed and the players would be nailed. If the rape did happen, it would be much safer for the players to claim that the accuser agreed to sex. Then it would be her word against theirs, nothing provable either way, with the deck stacked in all the ways made possible by wealth and high-priced lawyers.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 04:42:08 PM EST
    Jl, I don't think so. At some point the "I'm right, you're wrong." of TL has got to grow old. No?

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:08:42 PM EST
    Rex Little wrote:
    The players claim that none of them had sex with the accuser. I'm pretty sure that's the truth, because if it's a lie, it's a stupid and risky lie.
    I would think that the FIRST line of defense would be for everyone to try hiding in the crowd. Anybody who went to the trouble of admitting that they actually had sex with one of the dancers would be unnecessarily drawing attention to themselves, no? The people who have been accused, buy the way, are not the same people who claimed that they did not have sex with the dancers. These two haven't said a word. Almost everything we know about this case is hearsay. We know what the dancer's story is through a search warrant that paraphrases her. We know what these boys say through their lawyers. There's still plenty of room for surprises.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:32:50 PM EST
    chew2 bro...you've got jlvngstn all wrong. I hold his opinions in high regard, he takes each issue on its merits ignoring rigid ideologies. well said jlv.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#81)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:02:48 PM EST
    burnspbesq Yea, so I'm a basketball fan. So what? I've pointed out in previous posts that part of the problem Duke's lax team faces was that this hit the press after DSPN had their basketball team on every night for six months. Unfortunately at the end of the season, they proved yet again to be overrated (a favorite chant of those crazies). Your reference to Cameron Crazies actually points out another reason why there may be some malicious glee out there. Classless students who don't understand the game that well. Does anyone remember when Maryland's Herman Veal was cleared of sexual assault charges only to have panties and condoms thrown on the court? Their favorite chant of "A**hole?, A**hole?" It's too bad, because Coach K runs a good program and recruits and teaches upstanding citizens. I respect the way he runs the program. Certainly you are one of those lovers of Duke basketball. Too bad you didn't make it too far in the tournament this year, losing to a Big Baby. Anyway, this is not supposed to be a sports posting site - keep those posts on the sports forums.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:38:13 PM EST
    To answer some of the earlier commenters on this thread, I don't plan to publish the name of the accuser at this time. If it turns out she has falsely accused these lacrosse players, or some other development convinces me that it's relevant to the discussion, then I will. But I do resent that the defendants names are plastered everywhere while her's is not. Her name is available on some sites.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#85)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 10:02:38 PM EST
    I think both the accuser and the second dancer are going to make very good witnesses.
    If the accuser was under the influence of some substance at the time, especially if it was the date rape drug, her identification of any assailant will be suspect. Eyewitness identification is hard enough as it is without any mental or memory impairment. As someone commented on another blog, all those 6 ft white preppy boys may look alike to a black person. So she may have been assaulted or sexually assaulted and we'll never have good evidence of who did it unless the DA can can crack the wall of silence by those who were present.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 11:53:45 PM EST
    msnbc [reprint deleted, please just link and make your point. You repeatedly post long excerpts of transcripts.]

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 12:13:38 AM EST
    Chew2,
    So she may have been assaulted or sexually assaulted and we'll never have good evidence of who did it unless the DA can can crack the wall of silence by those who were present.
    I recognize that a team that never gives up is hard to beat, but I can't really imagine that ALL the lacrosse players not charged plan on taking the fifth or going the contempt route come trial. Normally one would expect in ANY group that size to find at least one person cognizant of the simple duties of citizenship. I may be underestimating the level of hatred the players have for the dancer and her rights before the law, however. It is not uncommon for teams, particularly teams of young men, to behave badly together. Right now I think of the Duke case as the metaphorical equivalent of the My Lai massacre before Hugh Thompson entered the scene and trained his rifle on Calley and his men.. Thompson died this year, a pariah to many who served in Vietnam, but a hero to students of ethics the world over. The rights that Thompson defended at My Lai, and that Calley denied, aren't the same rights that the Duke boys are currently (and arrogantly, it should be added) denying to the dancer by hiding behind their wall of silence ... but are they less sacred? Whether she is making up her story or not, this poor black woman has a right to the whole truth and nothing but. That's not even close to what she's getting. That's the one thing we can all agree on.

    Re: Duke Indictment and Status of the Two Charged (none / 0) (#82)<