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Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Funeral

by Last Night in Little Rock

The Topeka, KS Westboro Baptist Church fundamentalist wackos (previously noted here and here by TChris) disrupted another soldier's funeral in Nashville a week ago with placards celebrating the soldier's death. From their message, one would think they were violent Islamic fundamentalists rather than purported Christian fundamentalists. They are about as unChristian as a group can get.

As result of their activities, several states have adopted laws against disrupting funerals or burials as an inappropriate place for political speech, and some Members of Congress want to get into the act.

"Repugnant, outrageous, despicable, do not adequately describe what I feel they do to these families," said Representative Steve Buyer, an Indiana Republican who is a co-sponsor of a Congressional bill to regulate demonstrations at federal cemeteries. "They have a right to freedom of speech. But someone also has a right to bury a loved one in peace."

In the past few months, nine states, including Oklahoma, Wisconsin and Indiana, have approved laws that restrict demonstrations at a funeral or burial. In addition, 23 state legislatures are getting ready to vote on similar bills, and Congress, which has received thousands of e-mail messages on the issue, expects to take up legislation in May dealing with demonstrations at federal cemeteries.

As repugnant is their message is, it is classic political speech. No matter what one's position on the War in Iraq, every war death is a tragedy that should not be celebrated simply because the United States "attempts" to tolerate a sex life different from their own. Tolerance is not in their vocabulary.

"Thank God for Dead Soldiers," read one of their placards. "Thank God for I.E.D.'s," read another, a reference to the bombs used to kill service members in the war. To drive home their point -- that God is killing soldiers to punish America for condoning homosexuality -- members of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., a tiny fundamentalist splinter group, kicked around an American flag and shouted, if someone approached, that the dead soldiers were rotting in hell.

If anybody can act, only a state can act, and, even then, there are serious First Amendment implications in limiting political speech. A second year law student can easily formulate arguments on both sides of the issue, but Congress? Where is the federal interest in limiting speech outside a private funeral that occurs once, not recurring daily, vis-a-vis a burial at Arlington National Cemetary?

Carpe diem, Congress. You abdicated your role in the War in Iraq and American tax policy, so think of something else to deflect the voters from the fact that Congress's disapproval rating is worse than President Bush's abysmal disapproval rating.

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    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#1)
    by desertswine on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:08:52 PM EST
    These Phelps people are truly repugnant and thrive on publicity.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:14:04 PM EST
    Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here? Hello?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:17:30 PM EST
    Prof Volokh wrote up his take on whether these protests can be Constitutionally restricted. Gist: they can be significantly restricted, but not completely banned. (Don't yell at me for linking to Volokh, he's nice in this one)

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:27:14 PM EST
    If anybody can act, only a state can act, and, even then, there are serious First Amendment implications in limiting political speech I repeat, Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here? Shunning and ostracism can help. Condemnation from the church can help. Expressions from the christian right of honestly expressed and real moral outrage can help. If they are interested in helping, that is. I must admit I'm not holding my breath, however. Note: There are good christians who post here who I know from experience would be disgusted by these idiots. Debbie Hammil is one. They know who they are and know that I am not lumping them in with the phrase christian right that I used above.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#5)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:37:32 PM EST
    Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here?
    These people are wrong and their positions are repugnant. The hide behind a version of Christianity that is as dangerous as it is twisted. If these people showed up at a funeral in my jurisdiction, I'd arrest them for a violation of 415(3) California Penal Code. How's that edgar?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:40:11 PM EST
    But I'd be wrong to do it...
    2. The government also may not ban offensive picketing on the grounds that it will supposedly start fights. Though "fighting words" can be banned, that category is generally limited to epithets addressed to a particular insulted person. Even though many attendees at a funeral will be quite upset at speech that condemns the decedent, or gays as a whole, soldiers as a whole, or Americans as a whole, that's not enough to strip the speech of protection. See Cohen v. California (1971).
    I guess someone already trued that.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:41:47 PM EST
    How's that edgar? Not bad, from a commie pinko lefty moonbat sympathizing wannabe jackbooted thug of a cop, Patrick! ;-)

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#8)
    by swingvote on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:43:13 PM EST
    I repeat, Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here? Probably because there are no members of the christian right here, edger. Maybe you should go visit Freeperland for that, assuming those people can see the problem with "these idiots". I'm certainly not a member of the christian right, or even a member of "the right" (regardless of what you may have been told, or what you may have told others), but as someone who certainly leans more to the conservative side than most of the commenters here I will gladly condemn these people and have done so before. Phelps and his band are absolute scum. Congress does indeed have a problem if they try to get involved, as there is no federal issue here and, even if there were, the First Amendment is pretty clear. I know that some biker groups have taken up the cause here and are trying to cordon these people off, but I think what really needs to be done is someone going on the offensive here and staging similar protests at Phelp's church and home, as well as the homes of his followers. Give them a taste of their own medicine and see how they like it.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#9)
    by demohypocrates on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    edger, Huh?????? Read the post before asking stupid questions. "Repugnant, outrageous, despicable, do not adequately describe what I feel they do to these families," said Representative Steve Buyer, an Indiana Republican who is a co-sponsor of a Congressional bill to regulate demonstrations at federal cemeteries. Congressman Buyer is credentialed as follows: Christian Coalition- 93% National Right to Life- 100% Don't link conservatives to a group jumping on the flag, cheering the death of US troops and calling for the death of homosexuals. I will, however, bestow upon them the Chuckie Schumer Award for Publicity Stealing Excellence.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:45:37 PM EST
    going on the offensive here and staging similar protests at Phelp's church and home, as well as the homes of his followers. Give them a taste of their own medicine and see how they like it. :-)

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:49:09 PM EST
    Huh?????? Read the post before asking stupid questions. Demo, read my post before making stupid assumptions.
    Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here
    Take a valium, Demo.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#12)
    by roger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:54:48 PM EST
    It sounds as if a riot started over this, Patrick's statute might be valid ;-)

    1:49 pm TalkLeft posts thread 2:14 pm edger:
    Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here? Hello?
    2:27 pm edger:
    I repeat, Why is there no condemnation of these idiots from the christian right here?
    [italics his] Who needs that valium?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#14)
    by roy on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:59:02 PM EST
    I also reluctantly doubt this is true:
    If anybody can act, only a state can act...
    Raich killed Federalism. Funeral protesters impact the interstate casket trade, or some such thing.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#15)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:59:05 PM EST
    I'd never use the term moonbat. They might be offended. The moonbats are a federally protected species

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#16)
    by unbill on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:01:29 PM EST
    No matter how repugnant this may seem, I would argue against any limitations to the right of free speech, even if this one hurts. The point is, however, limiting free speech is always a slippery slope.

    It is said the congregation is made up mainly of a tight group of family members. How tight methinks? Genetics anyone.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:12:43 PM EST
    Demo, you haven't condemned them, I notice. In fact you've applauded them for excellence in something else altogether; a simple diversion. Is that a backhanded way of supporting, or at least out of condemning them?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:13:14 PM EST
    So we can't stop them. Let's all hope that their faces don't accidentally get tangled in someone's fists.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:16:29 PM EST
    Che, Phelps can punch me right in the fist with his eye anytime he wants. And I'll just stand there and take it. I won't even fight back.

    I am sorry I don't pray at the altar of edger, nor do I read from the Book of edger, or the Gospels according to edger.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:24:22 PM EST
    I'm sorry you can't find it in you to condemn them, demo.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:46:59 PM EST
    demo, edger called for the christian right to condemn them, not 'conservatives.' Tho it's easy to understand how one can confuse the 2 groups, (they're so easily confused;-) And edger wasn't talking about just this site; just as ppj constantly asks 'where are the moderate muslims'* edger, I assume, was asking why aren't falwell, robertson, et al, condemning these acts? And edger also has a point; all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Their conduct is particularly distasteful in light of the proximity to Easter, when we acknowledge all the eggs that were dyed for us. *BTW, many moderate muslims have spoken out, but preaching peace, love and understanding, (what's so funny about that -Costello), doesn't get the same airplay.

    Pretending that no one on the 'religious right' will decry Phelps is just nonsense. There is no excuse-making going on for Phelps... no one defending him... no one even considering him a real christian. The only defense of him would come from First Amendment absolutionists... not religous people... and that defense would only extend to his right to say vile things. They forget that the right to speak doesn't extend to being able to speak whereever you please, heckle whoever and whenever you like, and use fighting words to try and provoke people who are vulnerable in their grief. Edger, I can't help but notice that you haven't been able to bring yourself to condemn the Nazis, anywhere at all on this thread. Why haven't you done so? Are you a Hitler fanboy?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:56:58 PM EST
    Oh, and I'm completely against laws to stop them from exorcising their rights. As repugnant as they are, I think a (final;-) solution is built into their acts. Some communties have turned out to peacefully block them from view of the service. Just like most modern day klan rallies have more protestors than klansmen, these 'christians' have inspired folks to take an active role in their communities. Besides, if it didn't pi$$ you off, it wouldn't be free speech. That said, if they tried that crap at a funeral of one of my friends or family, I'd go crazy ... and then throw myself on the mercy of the jury.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#26)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:58:53 PM EST
    And edger wasn't talking about just this site;
    Sailor, I beg to differ, he was clearly referring to this site when he posted his 2:49 PM comment, which qouted his original comment. Hence the bold font and snarky comment.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:00:52 PM EST
    exorcising their rights
    That was funny if the pun was intended! Even if it wasn't!

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:01:06 PM EST
    Pretending that no one on the 'religious right' will decry Phelps is just nonsense.
    gee, waxxman, got links? And actually edger has condemned nazis, of all stripes and eras.

    And Sailor, your point is noted, it's apparent edger is trying to hijack the thread to bring muslims in. There are plenty of reasons the 2 situations (christians vs. Phelps, Islamists versus moderate Muslims) are dissimiler, but if I listed them here, then Edger would succeed in his trolling.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:11:35 PM EST
    thanks Patrick, I missed edger's original statement, my bad. And yes, 'exorcising' was intentional. I thought about adding an emoticon or something, but then I thought, hey, you get it or you don't ... or even better if you wonder about it;-)

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:13:27 PM EST
    waxxman, Posted by edger March 26, 2006 11:51 AM

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:20:45 PM EST
    it's apparent edger is trying to hijack the thread to bring muslims in
    dude, 1) take your meds, and consider upping the dose 2) I wish more muslims were involved with this site; I beleive TL welcomes all, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, sexuality, sandwich preference ... etc. 3) The more POVs, the better info we all have to work with. Caveat: Unless you were being funny and I missed it because it flew under my radar while I was standing on my soapbox.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:23:52 PM EST
    I don't these vile protests by vile people infringed in anyway. Next they will come for my speech...or yours. Times like this, it is best to believe in "what goes around, comes around" and let the crazies have their fun. But I must say, if it was my brother's funeral, fists would fly and I'd gladly accept my subsequent arrest and assault charge. It would be well worth it.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:30:07 PM EST
    Thanks, Sailor... it's apparent that those who will not condemn the idiocy that Phelps represents and his followers carry out, will also accuse others of thread hijacking as a way of attempting exactly that. The tactic is all too familiar...

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:40:15 PM EST
    Condemn does not mean to make illegal or limit the right of free speech of the Westboro Wackos. It means to call them on the idiocy, offensiveness and repugnance of what they do, and make it clear that we do not agree or support them. They only continue because they take not being condemned as support, IMO.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#36)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:41:37 PM EST
    Sean Hannity is about a right as they come and he had a rep from the group on his show earlier this week and basically called them unchristian scum. I know most here despise Hannity, but the point is this group draws the ire of most reasonable people, regardless of their ideology.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:52:09 PM EST
    Patrick, I would hope so. And I think you're right. It would be rather oxymoronic for a "reasonable" person to express support them after all, wouldn't it?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#38)
    by Patrick on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 04:08:06 PM EST
    They only continue because they take not being condemned as support, IMO.
    Or they crave the attention the get.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    That might be part of it, yes.

    Has anybody heard the report that these guys attempt to provoke somebody into assaulting them and then sue? I've heard this is mostly about the money. Any confirmation?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#41)
    by roger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 04:51:12 PM EST
    RA, If I were on that jury, I'd give 'em a dollar

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#42)
    by MikeDitto on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:04:39 PM EST
    RA, it's not about provoking assault per se (though I'm sure it's happened), but about provoking the cops into stepping over the line and abridging their first amendment rights. Then they slap a federal civil suit and cities usually settle. They're the first amendment version of professional accident victims. I still say it's curious that there is all this consternation about the picketing of military funerals when they've been doing this at gay people's funerals since 1983 with nary a peep out of our government leaders on either the left or the right. And yes, I have seen the religious right condemn the military funeral protests. But again, where were they when the families of gay people were terrorized? Love the sinner and hate the sin apparently doesn't extend to the level of defending grieving families of dead gay people.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:27:02 PM EST
    Love the sinner and hate the sin apparently doesn't extend to the level of defending grieving families of dead gay people. They were able to get away with it (the not extending) for too long, Mike. As long as they do not hear criticism of the bigotry it continues, with the assumption that it has sanction in society. Which was why I said of Phelps and his crew: They only continue because they take not being condemned as support...

    the First Amendment is pretty clear
    Yeah, but it doesn't prohibit reasonable, content-neutral time, place and manner restrictions. You have the right to free speach, but you don't have the right to broadcast your poltical views to your neighbors at 3:00 a. m. over a loudspeaker.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:50:21 PM EST
    Maybe its cuz I just got done reading Thomas Franks "Whats the Matter with Kansas", but, John Brown, "Bloody Kansas", Carrie Nation, the Sam Brownback contingent..is there something fanato-genic in the water out there?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#46)
    by glanton on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:00:22 PM EST
    I still say it's curious that there is all this consternation about the picketing of military funerals when they've been doing this at gay people's funerals since 1983 with nary a peep out of our government leaders on either the left or the right. And yes, I have seen the religious right condemn the military funeral protests. But again, where were they when the families of gay people were terrorized? Love the sinner and hate the sin apparently doesn't extend to the level of defending grieving families of dead gay people.
    Thank you M. Ditto! Yes, Hannity and many Republicans are outspokenly critical of the Phelps nutbags, but why? It is only because they are protesting military funerals. These same people have no problem whatever with the same exact protests going on at the funerals of homosexuals. But then, those non-military protests have never gotten much press anyway. It just doesn't sell. I mean, after all, in Uhmerrikkah, who really cares about it when there's got to be a white woman missing somewhere?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:08:29 PM EST
    Good points gentlemen.

    Posted by Patrick April 18, 2006 04:41 PM
    Sean Hannity is about a right as they come and he had a rep from the group on his show earlier this week and basically called them unchristian scum. I know most here despise Hannity, but the point is this group draws the ire of most reasonable people, regardless of their ideology.
    No, he's about as wrong as they come and what's reasonable got to do with sean hannity and/or any of his nitwit listeners? Has falwell condemned them? Robertson? Shrub? That's what I thought. Show yourself out.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#49)
    by glanton on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:34:32 PM EST
    Well, Charlie, I'm prettysure if someone shoved a mike in Dobson's face, for example, he'd denounce Phelps. Because of the flag thing, the military thing. That's why he'd do it, the only reason why. He got to look patriotic. Same for Falwell and Robertson. But don't fret, their hatred of the Other remains perfectly intact.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#50)
    by Johnny on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 07:49:37 PM EST
    Gee I sure hope noone condemns an entire religion due to the acts of a minority of it's followers... I mean, that would be ludicrous, right?

    I dare say, that might be the first microphone and mini-cam he'd avoid, Glanton. Same goes for those other charlatans and merchants of malice and malarkey. They've gotta go and the only way out is through.

    Posted by Johnny April 18, 2006 08:49 PM
    Gee I sure hope noone condemns an entire religion due to the acts of a minority of it's followers... I mean, that would be ludicrous, right?
    No, that would be the Christian Right.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 08:01:22 PM EST
    Well they certainly exploited and rode the crest of 9/11 (another"sign" )to the enth degree. But, now that its been five years and the clouds-of-glory have yet to unfurl, possibly some of sheep fold may be starting to wonder if they've been had.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#54)
    by Sailor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 08:10:15 PM EST
    Anyone else ever wonder that when bush said "Bring it on" he meant the rapture!?

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 08:20:15 PM EST
    Playing chicken with hey-Zeus.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#56)
    by cpinva on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:22:27 PM EST
    we've had the "pleasure" of the phelp's family church in my city. to answer someone's question, they are 'very tightly knit", they are all related to each other, by blood or marriage. i don't believe there's an outsider in the bunch. a more noxious group you're not likely to find, they make osama look restrained by comparison. they are also almost all lawyers, and quite the litigous bunch: they'll sue at the drop of a hat. any attemtpts to restrict them will fail judicial scrutiny. the opprobrium of the community, or their fellow christians means nothing to them, they thrive on the publicity. the bigger, unanswered question is: who is providing the financial support that allows them to travel the country, staging their "protests"? follow the money.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 12:49:19 AM EST
    Its worth noting also that Phelps is an alumnus of favorite Bush stop over Bob Jones U.

    charliedontsurf1:
    o, he's about as wrong as they come and what's reasonable got to do with sean hannity and/or any of his nitwit listeners? Has falwell condemned them? Robertson? Shrub? That's what I thought. Show yourself out.
    Yer correct! Say, I have not heard Kennedy, or Schumer or Rainbow/Push (maybe they will pay tuition for their education) or Reid or Boxer condem them either! Hey, whats going on here? For the record I condem them. I would probably assault them if we were in the same location at the same time.

    Re: Fundamentalists Disrupt Another Soldier's Fune (none / 0) (#59)
    by swingvote on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:37:56 AM EST
    Anyone here remember Bloom County and the "Fundamentally Oral Bill" episodes? This whole thing has the same kind of surreal idiocy to it.

    If the Bush Administration can designate "Free Speech Zones" miles away from their political rallies/meetings/shenanigans, why can't they do the same thing for the funerals of those killed doing the Bushies dirty work? Oh yeah, I forgot! Bushies don't really want to know about the casualties of war! "If we don't allow coffins of dead soldiers to be photographed, why would we want to ensure their funerals are protected from lunatics?"

    deleted