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The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Truth or Scam?

The best coverage of the story so far: There was a party at a house rented by three Duke lacrosse team members. They hired two exotic dancers. The dancers were black and 46 of the 47 team members are white. Later, one of the dancers alleges she was raped by three white males at the party. Both allege racial epithets were hurled at them.

The 46 white players go in for DNA tests and deny any sexual activity occurred. Duke cancels team games until more is known. Many in the media are convinced the players are guilty and have elevated the story into one about "classism, racism and sexual violence." Even charges of a "blue wall of silence" among team players have been bandied about.

Bloggers are lining up to castigate the players. The latter is so hot to convict she even mistates the most basic fact of the case in the description of her blog.

On March 14, 2006 two African-American women were allegedly raped,sodomized, and racially terrorized by white members of the Duke University Men's Lacrosse team at a party they were hired to dance for.. This site serves as a watchdog, information hub, and activism vehicle to ensure these young women receive the justice they deserve.

At no time have both women claimed to be raped.

I think there's something very fishy about the two women's stories. I won't be surprised if it turns out the rape allegation was fabricated to get back at the players for demeaning them, probably with racial epithets.

Rape is a serious charge. It is easy to make and difficult to defend. Only one of the women was inside the house when the alleged rape occurred. She has evidence of injuries, but when did they occur, who was responsible (not all the attendees were team players) and were they the result of rape or consensual sex?

Let's extend the presumption of innocence to the players, even in the court of public opinion, until more facts are known.

Some background:

Here's the timeline.

The women leave the party. One goes back in. She leaves again and meets up with the second woman. At some point, the second woman calls 911 to complain about racial epithets hurled at her by one or more males at the house. (listen to the call here.)Within two minutes police arrive, there is no sign of the woman.

A half hour later, a second 911 call comes in from a supermarket two miles away (the police station was only one mile away.) The store clerk tells the operator there are two women, one of whom appears drunk and won't get out of the car. You can hear the other in the background of the 9/11 call. (listen here.)

This woman who won't get out of the car, was the woman who went back into the house. She is a college student, part-time stripper/dancer/escort and mother of two. She then alleges she was raped by three white males at the party. She provides first names. Here is the search warrant later executed at the house which names them. One is not on the team.

She goes to the hospital where the nurse conducting the rape exam finds evidence of sexual activity. The DA calls in all 46 white players for a DNA test. The players deny any sexual activity occurred.

The DA, who is running for re-election in May, says he believes she was raped by guys at the house. He doesn't care whether the DNA tests come back positive or not. After all, he says, maybe they wore a condom.

Duke cancels team games until further notice. Now for the discrepancies.

Of note are two phone calls received by the Durham Police that night, the first made by a woman who said she was driving by the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., about an hour before the alleged rape took place, at which point, according to transcripts of the conversation, she was met with racial slurs.

In the transcript, the woman states: "I don't know if this is an emergency or not necessarily, but I'm in Durham and I was driving down near Duke's campus and it's me and my black girlfriend and the guy, there's like a white guy by the Duke wall and he just hollered out "n-----" to me and I'm just so angry, I didn't know who to call. I don't know if this is an emergency ... they're just hanging out by the wall."

There's more:

In the first 911 call the woman initially claimed: "I'm in Durham, and I was driving down near Duke's campus..." But just seconds later on the same phone call, stated: "and me and my black girlfriend are walking by."

The lawyers also pointed out the discrepancy in the phone call of the number of men allegedly harassing the two women. At first, the caller claims, "and the guy, there's like a white guy by the Duke wall, and he just hollered out 'n-----' to me," but later in the same call adjusts the story, claiming multiple men approached them. "And I saw them all come out of, like, a big frat house...and they called us 'n------.'"

She kept repeating the house number, but it's not visible from the street.

From the second call:

In an excerpt of the conversation, the security guard states, when asked by the dispatcher to describe the problem he is reporting: "The problem is it's a lady in somebody else's car and she will not get out of their car. She's like intoxicated or drunk or something and she won't get out of the car, period.

Then there's this:

In an article filed by the Herald-Sun on March 29, Angel Altmon, the security guard who made a 911 call at 1:22 a.m. on March 14, is quoted extensively. Altmon claimed the driver of the car said she was not at the party with the alleged victim. The driver, who identified herself as "Kim", told Altmon she was driving near the party scene, saw the victim walking outside with "a whole lot of Duke guys hollering at her" and picked her up.

But in an article in the Duke Chronicle the following day, Kammie Michael, public information officer for the Durham Police Department, told the Chronicle the woman who drove the alleged victim to the grocery store was in fact the second dancer at the party.

The accuser provides her version.

The papers report 15 of the players have had minor arrests, almost all for typical kid stuff like underage drinking and noise violations. No sex crimes. The team has a reputation for loud parties.

Some news reports say the three who lived at the house did not cooperate. Not true:

The Police Department issued a news release Wednesday saying that when police searched the house March 16, the three residents of the house, who were all Duke University lacrosse captains, volunteered to go to Durham Police Substation 2 for interviews, the release said. When the interviews were completed, the three men agreed to go to Duke University Medical Center, where they voluntarily agreed to provide "suspect test kits."

The DA had asked to meet with all of the team members. When they canceled the meeting, he issued an order compelling them to give DNA tests. All of them did. But the three who lived at the house went voluntarily the night of the search and were interviewed.

Update: A newer timeline is here.

Update: Good reading, from our archives, Rape Suspects Face an Uphill Battle.

And on injuries after sex, from Dr. Michael Baden:

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Usually, a physician can't tell consensual from non-consensual. They can tell whether there's been intercourse or not intercourse, but not whether it's consensual because one can have bruises and certain injuries from consensual sex and one can have no injuries from non-consensual sex.

On false reporting in rape cases.

Update: New thread on the Duke case here. I'm closing comments on this one, feel free to comment over there.

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    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#1)
    by chew2 on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 11:02:05 PM EST
    The article from the Lacrosse magazine seems a little biased. It failed to mention that the alleged victim reportedly had bruising consistent with a sexual assault, and that 4 of her plastic fingernails were found in the bathroom along with her celphone and money she received for dancing. She reportedly told the police that she had scratched at her assailants in the bathroom. The team captains are claiming no rape occurred and that she was never alone with any of the team members. The article also doesn't mention that a neighbor reported hearing the dancers being verbally abused by the loud and raucous lacrosse party goers, including a possible racial insult. You get a lot of loud drunk athletes together with strippers and bad things can happen. On the other hand it's possible the woman made the story up as you say to get back at those kids for racially harrassing them and insulting them.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#3)
    by BigTex on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 02:01:10 AM EST
    What is the standard for potential liability under a defamation family charge for info posted on blogs? The team isn't likely to be held to a public figure or limited purpose public figure status. Has there been any instance where individuals defamed on a blog have proceeded with a cause of action against the blog? Note: I'm not suggesting that this has happened in this case, only that in the rush to judgment this is always a concern.

    Posted by Jesurgislac April 1, 2006 06:08 AM
    Would anything actually convince you that two sleazy exotic dancers were telling the truth, and 46 fine upstanding young men are lying?
    Yeah. Facts and evidence. Proof. Ya know, stuff like that.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:37:42 AM EST
    Something similar happened 2 years ago where the athletes were accused of rape (basketball players out east), turns out they had everything on video and there was no rape. It stinks because the women were exotic dancers and people are more likely to believe the athletes relative to morality. I sure hope the racist crap and the rape allegations are untrue but what a horrible story either way.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:41:12 AM EST
    I don't think this is the same one but.....:
    What She Really Wants to Do Is Direct": When Tamara Anne Moonier filed rape charges against six young men in Fullerton, Calif., in June 2004, she seemed the disconsolate victim of vicious predators. However, shortly afterward, one of the accused gave police a video of the entire incident, and Moonier consequently was indicted in 2005 for filing a false police report and defrauding a victim assistance fund. In February 2006, Orange County Weekly published several pieces of dialogue from the video and described numerous "scenes" in which Moonier is shown laughing (27 different times), dominating action, ordering certain sex acts and positions, complimenting the men's bodies, and barking out exhortations for the men to improve their virility and performances. [Orange County Weekly, 2-9-06]
    care of news of the weird

    Rape is a serious charge. It is easy to make and difficult to defend. You know, just a tip. When you're quoting a woman-hating, witch-burning, seventeenth-century man who made his name attacking both witches and rape victims, you don't exactly do great things for your protestations of neutrality. With only 2% of rape victims seeing their rapists convicted, your sentiments about how hard it is to defend against a charge of rape are ludicrous.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:51:36 AM EST
    ...barking out exhortations for the men to improve their virility and performances... LOL. the imagination soars. Not to make too much light in view of this horrible situation. Like Charlie, I'll wait for the facts. But this has eerie reminders of the Kobe Bryant case. Sure they may find DNA. But unless there's solid proof, it may againg boile down to she said/he said.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#10)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:53:24 AM EST
    Sorry for the spelling.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 07:00:01 AM EST
    Posted by Jlvngstn August 5, 2004 12:51 PM Camera phone photos save man accused of rape An Illinois man accused of rape had the charges dropped after he showed police camera phone photos taken by him and the woman with whom he had sex, proving that the sex was consensual, according to an article in the Belleville News-Democrat. And another.... The basketball team travelled to Pittsburgh on February 4 where it played, and lost, to Pittsburgh 71-51. Around 2:30 a.m., several players met Urbanic-Bach and they went back to a hotel room where she had sex with a number of the players. Around 4:15 a.m., however, Urbanic-Bach called police and reported that she had been gang raped by the basketball players. When police went to interview the players, however, the woman's story was undone by a cell phone that one of the players had used to record part of their encounter with the women. The video showed the threatening the players that she would go to police and invent a rape story if they did not pay her the $600 that they had previously agreed to in exchange for sex.

    The misogynistic and racial overtones in this post are disturbing and surprising considering from whom they are coming. How about we wait until the test results come back in before we crucify the players or malign the women. Maybe we should get rid of rape shield laws and be able to ask if the woman deserved it because she was an exotic dancer? Nice rich white boys from New Jersey would never do such a thing as this.

    DNA evidence is gathered. I believe the stripper also has physical evidence on her indicating a rape (bruises ...). It looks like the truth will come out pretty soon. Looks like it will be a clean-cut case instead one of those he-says-she-says.
    Narius, Your ignorance of these matters is astounding. You conveniently missed this tidbit of information:
    The DA, who is running for re-election in May, says he believes she was raped by guys at the house. He doesn't care whether the DNA tests come back positive or not. After all, he says, maybe they wore a condom.
    And if the players are guilty, they should be "crucified" in the media. If not, they should be exonarated.
    In case you haven't noticed, the players are already being crucified by the media.

    Ginmar and PHD--please read before you post. This is not a neutral site. It's purpose is to protect the rights of those accused of crime. It is written by three criminal defense lawyers, principally me. If you're looking for a victims' rights site, this is not it. Ginmar needs to read the commenting rules. The profanity in his/her comment, which is not allowed on the site, has been deleted. As to the 2% statistic, I think that should read "rape accusers" not "rape victims." but I can't tell since there's no link. Note, if someone is going to add one, it must be in html format or it skews the site. Ginmar is also limited to four comments a day. See commenting rules. If anyone else doesn't understand the frame of reference of TalkLeft, see our Kobe Bryant coverage.

    Look, there's no getting around the fact that this is going to be tried in the Court of Public Opinion as Well as a Court of Law. There's also no denying that there's racial and class overtones here. Rightly or wrongly, lacrosse is perceived by many as a white, rich kid, preppie sport. Never mind the fact that it's origins are Native American and it's widely played on Reservations in Northern New York and Canada and is Canada's Official National Sport or that it's as blue collar as baseball on Long Island, in Baltimore or pockets of Upstate NY, that's its image. Duke has handled this properly so far. They had to suspend play for the season. They couldn't carry on with business as usual with this hanging over their heads. It would reflect badly on the school and the other athletic programs. This is bigger than the Duke Lacrosse Team. They represent Duke University and everything that goes with it. Having said that, they haven't been convicted of anything yet, either. Nobody has even been charged. Yet people either want to string them all up or give it the boys will be boys wink and a nod. Neither one is gonna happen. Neither one should. A few years ago, the University of Vermont's Men's Hockey Team had a hazing scandal. They tried to keep a lid on it and handle it internally, but a Goalie had transferred to another school and he wasn't keeping any vow of silence any longer. So much for handling internally. It blew up, was a national story, cost the Coach his job after 19 years, and prompted the school to take the unprecedented step of cancelling the rest of that season and all of the next one. The University has a new President, too. UVM is still feeling the effects of that action some five years later. Now there were no racial overtones here. No cries of rape. But the University had to deal with this situation quickly and severely to nip cries of double standards for jocks in the bud. Duke is probably going to have to do the same thing.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:26:03 AM EST
    I was surprised by TL's position as well. Why? Because my kneejerk assumption was that these guts are definitely guilty. Rich white entitled testosterone filled rugby players against a single black woman? My assumption would be they are lying and smugly lie thus taking advantage of a racist and sexist bias that we all know is the operative mode out there. When there is such a big power imbalance I tend to side with the one least powerful. Thank you TL for reminding me that in our country innocence is presumed (no matter how vile the accused may appear) and that thinking out of the box is imperative when it comes to passing judgment about serious criminal charges. Once we start assuming guilt (from either side of the political spectrum) we lose our civility and function only like an ugly mob of bloodthirtsy savages.

    There's a great timeline for the period beginning with the first 911 call through the second one at 1:something AM But what time did they leave the party house? Where did they go after? Did they compare notes on racial slurs and decide to go get 'em? I wasn't there, I'm just saying there are a lot of loose ends.

    So are you going to explain why you quote a seventeenth-century woman-hater then? Yes or no? It was rape victims. You may believe that an acquittal indicates that a crime has not taken place but reality indicates otherwise.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#19)
    by chew2 on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:55:28 AM EST
    The Duke lacrosse team sound like the worst examples of the tribal testorone fueled male athletic culture. I can well believe that they at a minimum pawed and degraded those strippers. "Last Saturday, as protests were being held around campus, including a candlelight vigil at the captains' house, Jill Hopman said she saw about 20 team members at Charlie's. Hopman, who graduated from Duke last year and is a law student at the University of North Carolina, said the players were drinking and breaking into chants of "Duke lacrosse." She said she was nauseated by the display and wrote an opinion piece for The Chronicle. "It was just sitting there knowing that a candlelight vigil was held at their house, while they are slamming down the shots on the bar," Hopman said Friday. "I don't know if they are guilty or not. I'm all for due process. But I love Duke, and they were under a microscope and were representing us. Forget all the issues about race and affluence and our relationship with the town. The one thing we all have in common is Duke." A Team's Troubles Shock Few at Duke

    In Orange County, three boys rape and torture an unconscious girl. Even though they videotaped the rape, it took two trials to convict them. The boys' families harassed and intimidated the girl's family for years. 6-Year Terms in O.C. Sex Assault A woman I know of was raped and tortured all night, suffering cracked ribs and extensive internal injuries. She is being harassed by her roommate and his frat buddies for bringing charges and "ruining his life." "I think there's something very fishy about the two women's stories. I won't be surprised if it turns out the rape allegation was fabricated to get back at the players for demeaning them, probably with racial epithets." Because actual rape victims don't have any unpleasant consequences like getting harassed or their reputations dragged through the mud, of course! /sarcasm. Jesurgislac already cited the official statistics that only 2-3 percent of rape reports are false, and only 16 percent of rapes and sexual assaults are reported. What does it say about you that you are so quick to believe the women fabricated their stories? That you point out minor contradictions in 911 calls? Just how the hell do you lose 10 fake fingernails, anyway? "Rape is a serious charge. It is easy to make and difficult to defend." Right. Since 74% of them go unreported.

    The FindLaw article perpetuates the fallacy that there are contradictory statistics on the percentage of rape accusations that are false. The writer misrepresents the 2% rate of false reports as coming from "organizations that tout a feminist agenda" rather than its real source: Justice Department and FBI statistics. The 40-60% rate cited by "men's rights organizations" is simply false. There are severe societal penalties for women who bring rape charges. We would all do well to remember that.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#22)
    by Kevin Hayden on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:00:09 PM EST
    Great coverage, Jeralyn! There is a lot there that says "let's wait for the results" before playing judge and jury. And, though I'm currently involved in defending someone who's being prosecuted for filing a false rape report (who I'm convinced is innocent), I remain a strong proponent of the idea that in matters of potential sexual assault, when any evidence might be available beyond hearsay, that the court of public opinion should await all possible evidence before passing judgment. If the Duke team is guilty of racism and general boorish behavior, that doesn't come close to justifying a false report. Perhaps they deserve castigation and education, but a proven false report deserves conviction.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#23)
    by libdevil on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 01:04:12 PM EST
    Jesurgislac, I sure hope you misspoke when you said, "not being arrested, ... won't mean the man's not guilty of rape: it'll only mean that he's just another rapist who got away with it." Most men have not been arrested on rape charges. You're going to accuse half the human race of a violent felony on the basis that a tiny minority might have committed that felony and not been punished for it? Either you left out part of your thought in your haste to accuse, or you're playing a stereotype.

    FYI--lacrosse is spelled lacrosse, not La Crosse, Wisconsin.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 01:14:13 PM EST
    TL, We'll see how it plays out, J. But I gotta say, it's entirely possible these two women are anything but nice easy human beings to deal with and STILL got assaulted. Duke IS an elite institution, with an elitist bent in the south (remember who the school is named after). Their sh*t isn't supposed to smell. That said, let's see what happens, the DNA has been swabbed, the case is rolling, it'll play out. I doubt, however, that these two women, whatever their character flaws, have the means to take on Duke University. And if they were pretty white girls, I think the standard for believing them would be much easier. Peace, my hardworking and committed defender.

    Whoa, I didn't call them liars. I said their story is fishy. That means I'm skeptical--I haven't made up my mind since the facts aren't yet in. I'm also not ruling out the possibility of a physical scuffle over the money, which would account for her external injuries. As to the sex, it could have occurred before she got to the house or after she left, it could have been consensual or it could have been rape. I'm reserving judgment but going with the presumption of innocence.

    I'm glad I wasn't the only one disgusted by Jeralyn's post, particularly her statement that rape charges are "easy to make and difficult to defend." Not only is this misogynistic, but it's just flat out WRONG. See the facts that others posted above, and use common sense. Just spend 2 minutes thinking about what women go through when they go forth with a rape claim, and you can see that it's just b.s. to say that it's "easy." There's the humiliation, the shame, the people who don't believe you, the defense attorneys who attack your character, etc. If it's a famous case, like the Kobe Bryant one, you get death threats, the whole country knows your name and face, you have your every move scrutinized by tabloids. Under WHAT circumstances is this "easy"?? And I'm sorry, Jeralyn, but it does not make you a "victim's rights advocate" just to acknowledge the facts about rape and the rare instances where it is falsely reported. That is preposterous. Do you call people "carjacking accusers" or "burglary accusers" or whatnot as well, since there's no more false rape claims than there are for other crimes? The vast, vast, vast majority of women who claim rape WERE raped, and to demean them further by saying that their claims are "easy" to make is just plain wrong. I've gotta say, I know this won't matter much at all, probably, but between this and the apology to Michael Brown (whose dire mistakes I and other New Orleanians are having to suffer through DAILY), this loyal reader is about ready to jump ship. I'm not trying to assume that the Duke players are guilty already, I'll reserve that judgment until I get further proof, but to make such broad, disgusting and factually incorrect statements about rape claims in general is pretty vile. It's attitudes like that that make it so difficult and RARE for women to come forward when they've been raped, and I really don't want to be a reader of a blog that perpetuates that notion.

    Great post, Jeralynn. It's the best wrap-up of this case in either the blogs or the media.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#29)
    by BigTex on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 05:52:44 PM EST
    Jeralyn is just plain wrong when she claims that rape is a charge "easy to make and difficult to defend".
    Of course rape is easy to claim and difficult to defend. Look at the nature of the crime. Often it is a he said she said situation. Also, even if there is evidence of sex, that doesn't mean that the evidence is that of rape, so it's back to he said she said (BTW should this be hyphanated?)
    There's the humiliation, the shame, the people who don't believe you, the defense attorneys who attack your character, etc.
    This assumes that the victim cares. At the very least, prositiutes are known to cry rape when they aren't paid. Much of the disbelief comes from those who do not immediately report the rape. A person knows if they consented to the sex act at the time of the occurrence. It's not something that is unknown. If the person reports the rape immediately that tends to dispell unbelief. However if they wait days, weeks, months then of course it is going to seem questionable. The same goes if a civil suit is filed. Criminal laws allow for restitution, so filing a civil suit is not seeking justice. The rape shield laws have severly restricted the ability of the defense to attack character, even when it is relevent. There is no easy answer to the problem of sorting out true rapes from those who say yes at night and cry rape the next morning. But the defendant deserves the presumption of innocence, be it the alleged rapist, or the alleged false report.

    Gee, this may just come down to a nightmare case to sort out and try. We just may end up with dueling stereotypes here. The alleged victims may come off every bit as non-credible and unsympathetic as the prosecutors fear and the alleged defendants - assuming there are charges filed - may come off every bit the spoiled, self-absorbed, rich-kid jocks with the overdeveloped sense of entitlement their lawyers lose sleep over and the Jury just may end up hating all of them meaning that it just my come down to the facts, the evidence and the Law. Now wouldn't that be something?

    Good work on the round up for this story... I agree that it is important to wait until the DNA results come back before these guys are crucified, yet I understand the outrage that this type of story brings... When I first heard of it, I felt this undeniable sickness in my stomach as it filled with anger, but I'm still holding out for the results... You just never know...

    Captain Ed, thanks very much. Coming from you, that's quite a compliment. I did a segment on Fox News today on the case, and in preparation, last night read everything I could find that's been published. It ended up being this blog post. Kevin, thanks for your compliment as well. It's much appreciated.

    It seems clear that most of you with appendages to protect don't understand the whole issue of rape. Have you heard the phrase "you just don't get it?" The ignornace of some of you people with fear to allay is absolutely astonishing!

    Gee, Jeralyn, and you STILL haven't answered my question about your affinity for witch-burning, perjurious, seventeenth-century womens' rights advocates Matthew Hale.

    Let me get this straight. Jeralyn is claiming that the woman removed her fingernails in the bathroom, forgot her money (!!) and cellphone, left the party, was raped by person or persons unknown (vaginal bruising doesn't happen spontaneously), then she and her buddy cooked up a scheme to "get back" at the Duke by pinning the rape on them? And this is based on the fact that the woman who made the phone call knew the house number, which wasn't visible on from the street, and she was confused in the story she gave on the phone. Also a convenience store clerk described the rape victim as "drunk" because she wouldn't get out of the car. Or maybe the thinking is that the sex was consensual, even professional, yet the woman left her money behind. Doesn't that sort of beg the question of what is consensual? If you agree to have sex with someone for money, and then they don't give you the money, is that still consensual? Seems to me it isn't. The agreement to sex was conditional, if the conditions are not met the agreement is withdrawn. Now I am not a lawyer, only a layperson, so I am not arguing legally only morally. Big Tex says, "prostitutes always cry rape when you don't pay them." I say, "If you don't pay a prostitute, then it is rape."

    Ginmar, you are here to complain and disagree, like a troll, and I ignore trolls. You have your own blog, why come here? I didn't thank Tex because he didn't compliment the quality of the post, as did Captain Ed and Kevin. And no, I don't agree with his analysis. Fake fingernails can come off pretty easy, and as I said above, there could have been a physical fight when the players wanted their money back because the woman left after just a few minutes of dancing that could account for the external injuries....as to the sex, maybe it occurred at the house, maybe it happened before or after. Maybe it was with one person, maybe he was a lacrosse team member or maybe he was just a guy attending the party. Too few facts are known right now, it's too soon to convict anyone of anything, particularly an entire team of lacrosse players.

    I did not say this, "At the very least, prositiutes are known to cry rape when they aren't paid." His statements are his theories not mine, although he seems to agree with my larger points.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 11:18:54 AM EST
    Jeralyn is SUCH a defense attorney, and good for her. That's her job. We all help carry justice and we all help miscarry it, that's the nature of real, ugly, often uncomfortable democracy and its system of justice. Not perfect, but better than the alternative. And requiring our civic attention.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 11:30:44 AM EST
    Not to mention the extremely insensitivity previous sentence which reveals BigTex's hand: In response to this comment: There's the humiliation, the shame, the people who don't believe you, the defense attorneys who attack your character, etc. He opines:
    This assumes that the victim cares.
    That is way over the top for me and in the ballpark of blaming a rape victim for getting raped. TL's post is a caution that reflects our constitution. Innocent until proven guilty. In context it is a sobering call to the reaction of the blogosphere:
    Bloggers are lining up to castigate the players.
    Most of us think rape is one of the worst crimes, made even more horrific by our patriarchal society which often vilifies a rape victim. We must avoid assuming guilt before we know what the facts are, otherwise we are just as bad as those who assume the person raped deserved it and fall into the easy trap of mob rule.

    It's amazing how magnanimous everyone fancies themselves to be by not hanging these guys first and asking questions later. Too bad they don't seem to feel the same way about castrating them first and asking questions later. Look, none of these guys have even been charged yet. Having said that, Duke needs to officially cancel the balance of the season and suspend all team activities including practice which they're still doing. Furthermore, they should order everyone on the team to fully cooperate with the investigation or face loss of scholarship and/or expulsion from the school. But beyond that, the Prosecution - if there is one - is going to have to make their case.

    I appreciate the fact that Jeralyn is a defense attorney, and I understand the world would be a terrible place without them. But rape is not a "normal" crime in that we are still working on our ideas of what it is, how to define it, what the remedy should be. Traditionally rape was understood as a property crime, commited by one man against another by damaging his property, which was a woman or girl, whether she was his mother, wife or daughter. According to the traditional understanding, rape against a prostitute is a logical impossiblity, since she is, after all, a prostitute. Likewise there can be no such thing as spousal rape, since a man is entitled to do what he wants with his own property. (I don't know about North Carolina but in Tennessee spousal rape was only recognized as a crime about twenty years ago). The traditional, property-based definition of rape is in direct conflict with the modern, feminist definition, which holds that rape is a crime against a woman, because it violates her right of autonomy and control over her own body. My personal opinion is that, using the modern definition of rape, there can almost be no such thing as a false charge. Sex is not an entitlement, and all sex should be consensual. If any party to any sex act later claims they were coerced, for any reason, then in my book the burden of proof lies on the accused. Of course this completely upends the tradition of presumption of innocence, and I understand that, but I am not sure that when we are talking about rape the presumption of innocence does a very good job of leading us on the path to justice.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 12:20:54 PM EST
    Sadie B.- I think most of us would agree with what you write, except for the few wingnut (male) trolls that pass through this site. But you are making a supposition here that is not on the table.
    My personal opinion is that, using the modern definition of rape, there can almost be no such thing as a false charge.
    You presumably base that statement on the fact that sex did occur. Well what if it did not? Do you think that women are any less human than men who will lie to get what they want, be it revenge or financial gain? Women have no monopoly on the honesty market as they are part of the untidy mess we call humanity. BTW- I think that the property issue critique is very relevant in rape cases where a rape did occur and the outcome mostly reflects who has more power.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#43)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 12:37:34 PM EST
    You said" "Fake fingernails can come off pretty easy, and as I said above, there could have been a physical fight when the players wanted their money back because the woman left after just a few minutes of dancing that could account for the external injuries....as to the sex, maybe it occurred at the house, maybe it happened before or after. Maybe it was with one person, maybe he was a lacrosse team member or maybe he was just a guy attending the party." Those are speculations their defense attorneys might make in their defense. Is that the role you have adopted i this case, a partisan advocate? Personally I would feel better if you didn't call it a "fight". Why don't you just call it an "assault". Yeah 30 drunken athletes against one female. Let's call it a "fight". They were not priveleged or entitled to take the money back by force, and should be prosecuted for assault even under your assumed speculation. The whole team (minus the 3 team captains who claim nothing happened - right!) is stonewalling the investigation. They are not all guilty of whatever crimes that might have been committed, so why don't those who aren't guilty speak up. I agree that Duke should suspend the whole team until those who claim they are not guilty speak up about what they claimed happened. Let the criminal process take its normal course as to those who might properly suspects.

    Re: The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Tr (none / 0) (#44)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 12:44:00 PM EST
    blockquote>Big Tex says, "prostitutes always cry rape when you don't pay them." No, I said
    At the very least, prositiutes are known to cry rape when they aren't paid.
    There's a difference. I'm saying it is known to happen, not that it always happens. The statement is on the cold side, but it's not an incorrect statement. Of course prostitutes get raped. Probablly the vast majority have been raped at one point. And of course they have the right to say no to any unwanted sex. But having the same rights as everyone else doesn't mean that they don't file false reports of rape when they don't get paid. Not every one does, but it happens.
    That is way over the top for me and in the ballpark of blaming a rape victim for getting raped.
    I wasn't doing that at all. I was referring to the instences of when a charge leveyed years after the fact. One of the Priests where I attend receintly had an allegation made against him. The alleged incident took place 29 years ago. It is difficult to believe that a person suddenly is offended or suddenly gains the courage to report 29 years after the fact. Rather it seems more likely the claim is either false, the result of an implanted memory, or the person simply did not care at the time. It is difficult to believe a person would not have filed a claim at this late date if not for collateral purposes. Now, maybe I'm wrong here, but waiting 29 years to report doesn't sound like someone who cares about what happened 29 years ago, espically since a different accusation was leveled at the Priest in question in the interviening 29 years.
    I say, "If you don't pay a prostitute, then it is rape."
    If someone consents to sex at the time then it isn't rape. What you are referring to is a "fare beat" case. If the consent is conditional on something happening after the fact then there may be a secondary problem if the condition isn't met, but it's not rape because the sex act was consented to at the time it occurred. False accusations are a problem. One significant peoblem is in determining the amount of false reports. Some reports and groups say the incidence is as low as 3%. However, according to the Department of Justice, DNA evidence excludes 25% of those accused of rape. (This points more towards unfounded rape allegation rather than false rape alligation.) Source Figure is from 1996. Studies show that the per centage of false reports can be quite high in small towns (41%) and college campuses (~50%). Source The above study is important because it involved a LE system that had the time and man power to thoroughly investigate the claims, and that the claim was not tallied as a false report unless the accuser admitted that the report was a false report. The true figure likely lies in between the 3% rate and the 25% exclusion rate. Likely there is also a spike in per centage of false reports in/around college campuses and small towns due to the smaller numbers dealt with (each false report constitutes a larger percent of total reports.)
    BigTex's analysis of what happened is the same as yours, Jeralyn. Right down the line.
    I don't know what happened, but a) the accused deserve the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise and b) the history of false reports in colleges means an extra dose of caution needs to be present.

    Squeaky said: You presumably base that statement on the fact that sex did occur. Well what if it did not? Do you think that women are any less human than men who will lie to get what they want, be it revenge or financial gain? Women have no monopoly on the honesty market as they are part of the untidy mess we call humanity. If sex did not occur, that would be a good defense, wouldn't it? And no, I don't think women are less likely to lie than men. I just think, if people are having sex with people they don't know and can't trust, the vulnerability ought to be spread around a little more evenly. The main point I was trying to make was, justice is the desired outcome, and presumption of innocence is the tool which usually creates this outcome. Usually. For what I would call "normal crimes." But when it comes to rape, there is a good possibility that the presumption of innocence leads to injustice, for various social and historical reasons. We should not value the tool of presumption over the goal of justice. Besides, can you imagine what it would be like if my admittedly draconian ideas were put into practice? Can you imagine a world in which rich white boys have good reason to be afraid of hiring poor black girls to dance at their parties? And if they did hire them, wouldn't it be a sight to see how respectfully they could treat those dancers, like the Southern gentlemen their mommas raised them to be?

    I can appreciate that Talk Left is not a neutral site and that its purpose is to protect the rights of those accused of crime, but there are accusations being made from both sides. Whose rights should Talk Left protect? Talk Left posted:
    The 46 white players go in for DNA tests and deny any sexual activity occurred.
    Aren't the above 46 players accusing the woman of falsely reporting a crime? Isn't Talk Left coming perilously close to doing the same in the following quote?
    I think there's something very fishy about the two women's stories. I won't be surprised if it turns out the rape allegation was fabricated to get back at the players for demeaning them, probably with racial epithets.
    If Talk Left's instincts prove to be right, won't the woman who made the rape allegation require the services of a defense attorney? Will Talk Left come out to defend her? Talk Left suggests we "extend the presumption of innocence to the players, even in the court of public opinion, until more facts are known." No one has been charged here. Why is Talk Left taking sides? How about this instead? Let's extend the presumption of innocence to the players AND THE WOMEN INVOLVED, even in the court of public opinion, until more facts are known. Why is Talk Left taking sides?

    Sadie B, here you completely (and I think intentionally) misstate what I said. Here's what I said:
    Fake fingernails can come off pretty easy, and as I said above, there could have been a physical fight when the players wanted their money back because the woman left after just a few minutes of dancing that could account for the external injuries....as to the sex, maybe it occurred at the house, maybe it happened before or after. Maybe it was with one person, maybe he was a lacrosse team member or maybe he was just a guy attending the party. Too few facts are known right now, it's too soon to convict anyone of anything, particularly an entire team of lacrosse players.
    Chew 2, of course I'm a partisan and looking at the events through the lens of the accused. Please read TalkLeft's "About" page:
    TalkLeft is not a neutral site. Our mission is to intelligently and thoroughly examine issues, candidates and legislative initiatives as they pertain to constitutional rights, particularly those of persons accused of crime.