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Why Moussaoui Should Live

The L.A. Times has an editorial today, Don't Kill Moussaoui. I couldn't say it any better, so I won't try, I'll just quote:

The 19 hijackers are dead. But there is still Moussaoui. He knew. He helped. Shouldn't he die?

No, he should not. Many committed opponents of the death penalty want to carve out exceptions for mass murderers or those who attack or betray the nation writ large, such as Timothy McVeigh. But if you believe, as does this page, that the death penalty debases our society, the principle becomes all the more important when it is most tempting to ignore. But for those who don't share that conviction, there are some more practical arguments.

Among the practical arguments put forth by the Times:

Capital punishment gives them the martyrdom they crave, making them symbols of sacrifice to would-be followers rather than powerless, humiliated prisoners passing the decades alone and increasingly forgotten in a cell.

....if Moussaoui is indeed an important cog in a broad conspiracy, then he certainly has information that could potentially be useful both in further Sept. 11 investigations and in our fight against Al Qaeda, whether now or in 10 years. We may or may not get this information from him if he lives, although life in prison is a very long time. But we will certainly not get it from him if he dies.

...killing him would do nothing to stop future attacks or alleviate the loss of the past. That's the hard thing about the death penalty: The heart screams for retribution, but it is never enough. It is vengeance devoid of benefit.

I will add one legal argument: No one should be executed for what they planned on doing, rather than what they did. If you follow the defense portion of the trial, you will see the evidence that (1) al Qaeda wouldn't allow Moussaoui to participate in 9/11 (2) neither the FBI, the FAA nor any other federal agency would have been able to prevent the 9/11 attacks or a single death even if Moussaoui hadn't lied to agants after his arrest.

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    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:38:20 PM EST
    Posted by narius March 28, 2006 01:32 PM Sure. He LIED and thus 911 went forward. Just for that, he should be executed.
    So, lies that result in the deaths of innocent people should incur the death penalty? Just making sure you've thought that one through.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#4)
    by Patrick on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:49:15 PM EST
    I find myself in agreement with BB, well except for the big bubba part. He will be more valuabe to his cause if he's put to death at the hands of the "great satan." It's a tactical decision for sure, but I'm OK with it.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    I'd rather he be killed in prison than executed.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#6)
    by Al on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:03:04 PM EST
    Narius:
    Death penalty is good for society.
    If this is intended as a statement of fact, show me the evidence.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#7)
    by BigTex on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:10:07 PM EST
    Is this even a question of if he is going to die, or is it a question of how? He is a prime candidate for "Mexican Death Penalty" while in prison. Unless he is going to be kept in a true solitary confinement situation he will likely end up dead at the hand of fellow inmates. So I ask, which is the more merciful way to go, lethal injection, or at some whim of fellow inmates (ala Gorgon)

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:29:34 PM EST
    Big Tex, in a sense, every life sentence is a death sentence. Either way, he only comes out in a box. It's just a question of timing.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peaches on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:39:25 PM EST
    TL, As much as I admire the work you do, this is all the evidence I need for realizing the futility of building a left community, or a socialist utopia, through electronic media. You start a thread that should be obvious to anyone who has a commitment to humanist principles. But look who comes out of the woodwork and pretends that this is even something worthy of discussion amongst the left. 5 of the first seven posts are comments by TL participants motivated by Nothing but bloodlust. As Kurt Vonnegut says:
    Electronic communitites build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals.How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something. We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anyone tell you different.


    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#10)
    by BigTex on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:43:59 PM EST
    Big Tex, in a sense, every life sentence is a death sentence.
    No disagreement here since we are talking about the federal system, or in a system that has LW/OP. However, if he isn't put to death by the states the other inmates will kill him. It happened with Dauhmer. It happened with Geagan (Gorgon? - the pedophile Priest.) Here in Texas we call it the Mexican Death Penalty because of the high incidence of this happening to the worst criminals in Mexico. Can the federal government protect him from other inmates? If not, then it seems giving him a death sentence would be more merciful than sentencing him to a fate where other inmates will beat him to death.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#11)
    by Darryl Pearce on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:56:13 PM EST
    ...dead men tell no tales.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:47:47 PM EST
    ...dead men tell no tales. Nixon had 18 missing minutes. bush has 19, going on 20, missing 'hijackers'.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#14)
    by roger on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:33:14 PM EST
    Tex, I would think that he would go to "Supermax" in the Pelican Bay "Shoe". He should be very safe there. I have heard that the place drives people insane, it should be interesting to see if it can drive a crazy guy to sanity.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimcee on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:56:31 PM EST
    Life in prison w/o parole is fine for this fellow. No martyrdom but guaranteed quarantine. Honestly he seems as if he is daft and stupid or that he is trying to be executed so that he will become a lesser Martyr in the radical Islamic realm with the 72 virgins and all. But on the other hand if he is sentenced to death it will give the professional protesting crowd another new cause to elevate him to the level of Mumia or that fine gang fellow that was executed in California recently. It could make for some interesting chants and signage at the next perpetually offended American rally. Sentence him to life w/o parole and it will deny him his martyrhood and the Left another bloody shirt to wield at thier next protest. 'Sounds about right to me.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:15:53 PM EST
    Sadly, our prison system, as it currently exists, debases our society only a little less.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:18:42 PM EST
    Also, I think he'd be in the special unit with Kaszinski, Ramzi Yusef, where McVeigh was, etc., not exactly anything representing the general population.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#18)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:43:40 PM EST
    Reality:
    neither the FBI, the FAA nor any other federal agency would have been able to prevent the 9/11 attacks or a single death even if Moussaoui hadn't lied to agants after his arrest.
    The very first wingnut commenter:
    Sure. He LIED and thus 911 went forward. Just for that, he should be executed.
    Reading is hard an' stuff...

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:44:58 PM EST
    So, basically it breaks down into two camps. The camp who wants him to get life without parole and the camp who's bored and wants to see somebody - anybody - die and have now, evidently, come to the consensus that it'll probably be more violent, sadistic and painful if one or more of the other inmates does it than if it's an official state sanctioned execution so that's the way to go.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#20)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:45:05 PM EST
    For the record, I feel this guy is more clown than jihadist. Killing him isn't going to resonate with anyone.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 06:09:19 PM EST
    Peaches, I share your frustration with the constant stream of hateful spam from people who really ought to keep their mouths shut. It is hard to understand how so many people can believe that hatred and a desire for revenge are acceptable attitudes and a valid foundation for political debate -- especially on a site where it should be obvious that the disgraceful nature of their opinions will be evident to all.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimcee on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 07:55:30 PM EST
    Cymro, You are being ironic, er, right?

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 07:59:07 PM EST
    Sounds about numb to me.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#24)
    by HK on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:52:40 AM EST
    The idiocy of the comments in favour of putting Moussaoui to death are self-evident. Such commentors go from saying, 'don't allow him his martyrdom', to 'yes, execute him' to 'no, let him be killed in prison' to 'we should execute him as an act of humanity to save him from the other inmates...' You keep going round in circles, guys. Maybe one day you'll even catch your tail. Apart from all the very valid arguments against capital punishment per se, Moussaoui should not be executed simply so that someone can be seen to pay for the tragedy of 9/11. It has been clear to me from the start that this conviction has been pursued so vehemently because there was no one else alive and available to prosecute. This sentiment has overshadowed all fact and reason in this case.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#25)
    by space on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:36:43 AM EST
    I am one who used to oppose the death penalty completely. I now support it for those who commit murder of a type that poses an existential threat to our society (i.e. terrorist). I do not believe that, in the abstract, the death penalty debases society any more than war does. While I certainly opposed the Iraq war, I cannot say that all military action debases this country. I completely reject the martyrdom argument. First, I don't care what "they want". Our policies should be based on what we want, not stopping criminals from achieving what they want. Second, I do not fear creating martyrs out of geneuinely guilty terrorists. The risk of martyrdom occurs when you use force illegitimately. Abu Ghraib and Gitmo create martyrs. Executing Moussaoui wouldn't. As for the intel value, you have a much better chance of obtaining valuable information by threatening capital punishment and negotiating for life imprisonment than you do by simply hoping that down the road Moussaoui (or any other terrorist) decides to confess. Sure, I would have liked for McVeigh to live and one day tell the truth. But that is just because I thought the FBI was lying. So the problem is the FBI not the death penalty. Lastly, I think you have to consider the very real costs of keeping terrorists alive. No, not in dollars. In security. The incarceration of Al Qaeda members creates a very real risk of attempted escapes or, worse, possible blackmail. We know that Al Qaeda discussed the possibility of hijacking planes and demanding the release of blind Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#26)
    by peacrevol on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:23:12 AM EST
    Lastly, I think you have to consider the very real costs of keeping terrorists alive. No, not in dollars. In security.
    That I think is a valid point for the reasons that you have listed and for another reasonably obvious reason. In prison, many of the offenders are disenfranchised and are looking for maybe another way of life or maybe a way to get back at the system...so on and so forth. So if we were to simply lock him up w/ other offenders and not treat him differently, we run the risk of him convincing some of his prison mates that his views on terroroism against the US is a viable/holy option. For the record, I dont think his crime was necessarily worthy of the death penalty b/c we cant prove that he would have gone through with the attack. However, perhaps just conspiring to attack justifies the death penalty when the attack takes place, which would make him elegible for the death penalty b/c of the attacks that were carried out. What my point is (yes I have a point) that if he is not executed, I think he will have to be closely watched and treated a little differently than other offenders in an effort to preserve national security and prevent the spread of his pro-terrorism views.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#27)
    by HK on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:06:59 AM EST
    The risk of martyrdom occurs when you use force illegitimately.
    Very valid point, space, and in theory I agree with you, but this is a question of perception. You may regard it as legitimate force, but that doean't mean the community he comes from does. He is not looking to become your martyr - he is looking to become theirs.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:35:50 AM EST
    The proceedings before Judge Brinkema seem to get more Alice-in-Wonderland every day. I'm surprised that Mossouwi hasn't copped to the murder of the Lindberg baby and every other cold case with an middle-eastern suspect. What can any of these people including the Judge and Jury be thinking? Oh, suddenly, Mousoui cops to being a 9/11 participant, so it's ok to ice him based on this supposed "confession"? Wasn't there any testimony in this trial about how covert terror cells operate, such as: how the big wig "handlers" back home don't share operational details long in advance with the sleeper cell members, who typically are kept in the dark and only briefed and deployed at the last minute. This thing is becoming as believeable as one of Joe Stalin's show trials of "terrorists" and "wreckers" who sabotaged the accomplishment of the Five Year Plan.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 11:41:27 AM EST
    Narius:
    Welcome to the Internet!
    I know about the Web (which you incorrectly refer to as "the Internet"), in my job I work with the leading companies who use it for business. And I am not opposed to free speech either, I am just exercising my right to express my disgust with the kinds of opinions you express here all the time. Thank you for repeating my post so that more people may read it.

    Re: Why Moussaoui Should Live (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimcee on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 02:47:38 PM EST
    Cymro, So you aren't being ironic?