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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 12:15:03 PM EST
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It's time for the Tuesday Open Thread....

  • Don't forget to vote in the finals for the Koufax Awards for liberal bloggers. You can only vote once in each category. We're up for Best Single Issues blog. You can leave your vote in the comments to there or or you can e-mail your vote directly to Wampum by clicking here and hitting your send button.

  • Jason Leopold's latest on Bob Woodward's source who is now known as "Official One" and whose converstation in which he said "Everyone Knows" was recorded and turned over to Fitzgerald. Libby says "Everyone Knows" meant "everyone knows about Valerie Plame Wilson. Fitz says "Everyone Knows meant "everyone knows Wilson was the unnamed Ambassador sent to check on the Niger claim."
  • On the Ground in Iraq at the Boston Review, a first-hand account that traces the rise of sectarian violence since the beginning of the American occupation of Iraq. Religous tension, racial strife. The author argues that the recent wave of retaliatory violence is not merely the precursor to further internal struggle, but rather evidence of an ongoing civil war.
  • Larissa at Raw Story has the final installment of her interview with controversial Neoconservative scholar and Iran Contra figure Michael Ledeen in which he denounces his reputation as a Neo-Fascist, criticizes the Bush administration's personnel decisions with regard to high level officials, and calls for the resignation of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
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    Tuesday Open Thread | 49 comments (49 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    Radley Balko has recently added a ton of information about Cory Maye. He travelled to Mississipi, talked to a juror, took some photos... real solid work, better than most "journalists" bother to do.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:54:42 PM EST
    Will somebody stop these people... Well OK, I kinda like the mechanical elephant idea.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by swingvote on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 03:35:57 PM EST
    I'd rather see these people stopped. Protest has its place. But then so does basic human decency.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 03:40:28 PM EST
    Well, JP, we know whose team they play for.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by swingvote on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:02:10 PM EST
    Don't feed the house troll.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:38:52 PM EST
    Whoever said the libertarian right ever made common cause with the religious right?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:52:10 PM EST
    Posted by justpaul March 21, 2006 05:02 PM
    Don't feed the house troll.
    Tryin' to lose weight, JP?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:00:03 PM EST
    Just how much sway do you think the libertarian right actually holds in the republican party today, Jondee, after Injustice Sunday I and II? The Kukluxkristian taliban calls the tune. When they say jump, the george allens of the world say "how heil!" They're the king makers.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimcee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:25:13 PM EST
    The Iraqi civil war meme doesn't seem quite right although it is all the rage with certain types. What generally passes for civil war is a direct split in the governing organization resulting in factionalist rifts in the military. Examples of both would be the American Civil War but could also be evidenced by the Lebanese Civil War or most recently the Liberian conflict. The Bosnian Civil war most represents what one would expect to see in Iraq if it were a true civil war. Cities sieged and the attempt to exterminate the fighting-aged men in the opponent's population. But then again it may yet become one but it seems pretty much what has been going on there for the last two years. It is a combination of Sunni insurgents, native criminals released by Saddam just before the invasion and foreign jihadists funded by Syria, Iran and some Saudi Wahabbists. If the gov't were to fall apart and create intractable parties that held some form of overt military pressence then that would certainly be a civil war. Mostly I just find that the antiwar meme has gone from insurgency to civil war because they are truly trying to spin the war as a total failure. When thier present terms don't fit anymore just rename the same old sh*t but call it some thing else. Either way it smells the same.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:09:27 PM EST
    Mostly I just find that the antiwar meme has gone from insurgency to civil war because they are truly trying to spin the war as a total failure. When thier present terms don't fit anymore just rename the same old sh*t but call it some thing else. Either way it smells the same.
    Same old horsebrit, different day. Alawi, the former interim PM of Iraq says they're in the midst of a Civil War made worse by us and our policies, but you'd know best, eh, sport?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimcee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:57:18 PM EST
    Has anyone seen the recent article in the Seattle Times about how the crime rate in the area is up but the new jail is under-inhabited? In otherwords they won't or can't incarcerate people but then complain that the crime rate is up. Go figure. That cause and effect thing has always been lost on some.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:34:54 PM EST
    jimcee - Your logic is unassailable. charlie will hate you. BTW - Did anyone notice the really, really, really great smackdown Bush put on the grand dame of spin? BUSH: I think your premise, in all due respect to your question and to you as a lifelong journalist -- He then went on to politely rip her lungs out. She should retire and quit embarassing herself. Wait. I take that back. She is invaluable in showing how the average journalist can't find their checkbook with both hands.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:25:32 PM EST
    Nice try, how do supposedly vacant Seattle Jails have any effect on the Civil War in Iraq? That's what I thought.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimcee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:52:49 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ, Bush was respectful and firm with Ms Thomas. That does speak volumes about how he was raised. Bush's civility today is notable and that speaks poorly of those who were hoping for a WWF-style slap-down for Ms Thomas, or those that would push an old woman to carry thier ideological banner to be used as an example of how the Bushies hate old lady journalists. Either way Ms Thomas got her late hour of fame with one last question and she was used as a foil for Bush to appear passionate, compassionant and yet firm. Overall Bush was rather nice but strident in his news conference. Ms Thomas was given the most attention than she has ever been used to and she'll retire with that on her exit resume. Pretty cool for Ms Thomas...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 09:04:46 PM EST
    Which Press Conference were you watchin'? She handed him his frickin' head. Every reason he's given has turned out to be horsebrit and she called him on it, and she asked him what the real reason he wanted to go to War in Iraq was. The same question at least 65 percent of the Country wants to know. That's probably why they call on the jeff gannons of the world instead.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 09:11:49 PM EST
    jimcee - Cool? Asking a dumb question and then trying to interupt the answer? She was clearly out of her depth, and has been for years.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 10:04:10 PM EST
    I'd like to encourage every patriotic American to send this article to their representatives: english.epochtimes.com/news/6-3-17/39430.html Basically, millions of foreign citizens have entered our country illegally and are now making demands. What happens if we don't give in to their demands? Will they riot? If we give in to their demands, won't that embolden them even further? Won't they make more demands? What happens when millions more come here? Won't they make similar demands and have an even greater chance of having them met? And, is there any real difference between what's happening with illegal immigration and what's happened in the past: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion I realize that some - dare I call them - Quislings support illegal immigration because they hope to profit off it. However, hopefully patriotic Americans of all political viewpoints will realize that this is an extremely dangerous situation. Please contact your representatives and let them know what you think.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 03:08:09 AM EST
    I guess m-maybe I've b-been wrong about President B-Bush all along. I see that another nut has finally seen the light according to the shrubster. You g-go George. S-safety first above all else. Yessir... North Korea Touts First-Strike Capability
    "As we declared, our strong revolutionary might put in place all measures to counter possible U.S. pre-emptive strike," the spokesman said, according to the Korean Central News Agency. "Pre-emptive strike is not the monopoly of the United States."
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 04:22:05 AM EST
    Actually, DA, I've gotta take issue with you on this. He didn't answer the question. He started to give his standard non-answer that he's given to the hand-picked rubes of nitwit nation for the last 3 years and she called him on it. She's covered every President since JFK, if not Ike, and she called him the WORST EVER. First question she's been granted in three years by the gutless wonder and she made it count.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 04:41:53 AM EST
    Some geezer on WJ just got off a good one. "If bush through himself on the floor he'd miss."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 06:38:58 AM EST
    Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has expressed a very strong position against teaching creationism in schools, and at the same time a pointed rebuke to those who try to argue that it or "ID" somehow qualifies as a "theory" worthy of being considered on a equal level with scientific theories:
    Williams... has stepped into the controversy between religious fundamentalists and scientists by saying that he does not believe that creationism - the Bible-based account of the origins of the world - should be taught in schools. ... "I think creationism is ... a kind of category mistake, as if the Bible were a theory like other theories ... if creationism is presented as a stark alternative theory alongside other theories I think there's just been a jarring of categories ... My worry is creationism can end up reducing the doctrine of creation rather than enhancing it," he said. More...


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 07:38:24 AM EST
    edger - And perhaps you don't know that it was Clinton and his administration, aided by jimmy carter, that gave them the tools to do that? Well, now you know. Dark Avenger writes:
    No, he answered the question, and then as she tried to follow up, he started talking over her in elaborating his answer.
    Let me see. According to you, he isn't allowed to answer the question the way he wanted to. Hmmmm.. Helen T: "Do you still beat your wife?" Dark Avenger: "No...and I.." (unspoken - "never did.") Helen T: "That's all I want to know. Please shut up and let talk." charlie almost quotes:
    Some geezer on WJ just got off a good one. "If bush through himself on the floor he'd miss."
    Another perfect example of how many who are no one and have done nothing in particular are smarter than Bush. And yes, I know.... "If only my daddy had been rich..." I think a better example would be..."If only I had a brain." BTW charlie, can you figure out why I wrote, "charlie almost quotes?"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 08:16:43 AM EST
    Ya mean besides the fact that you're a petty little twerp? Yeah, make through threw. I Needed more coffee. Ya best milk that for all it's worth, Jim. Mine are like Haley's Comet. Yours are like a city bus.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 10:52:37 AM EST
    Has anyone else experienced slow refresh rates. I think one of the ads is hanging up.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 11:02:40 AM EST
    Posted by justpaul March 21, 2006 05:02 PM Don't feed the house troll.
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 March 21, 2006 05:52 PM Tryin' to lose weight, JP?
    Yes, 50 minutes to think of a comeback, and that's all chuck can come up with. Haley's Comet indeed.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 11:05:20 AM EST
    Posted by jimcee March 21, 2006 09:52 PM JimakaPPJ,
    Bush was respectful and firm with Ms Thomas. That does speak volumes about how he was raised.
    Yeah, to be rich white trash. HT handed that dangerously inbred moron his head. Shrub makes prince charles look like he paid his dues.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 12:28:10 PM EST
    Charlie - Whatever the Norquists, Scaifes, Koch bros, etc are (I'd call em Randite Libertarians), theyre not the religious right; they use the religious right and the religious right uses them.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 04:40:42 PM EST
    Let me see. According to you, he isn't allowed to answer the question the way he wanted to. If it includes talking over someone's attempt to follow up on the question, yes. Your dialog lacks panache and drama, you won't be getting any gigs in the Poconos this summer if that's all you can come up with today. charlie, would that PPJ could attend to his own 'work products' as well as he has yours and mine, he might have something to crow about. Instead it comes across like a peacock coughing, no insult intended to any sick peacocks out there.......... TTFN

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 04:50:24 PM EST
    Yes, 50 minutes to think of a comeback, and that's all chuck can come up with. Haley's Comet indeed.
    As if. Nah, more like 45 minutes to walk the dog, talk to the neighbors, snag some chow, make some coffee, catch the news, look at this for 10 seconds and type for 5, but suit yourself, suo.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 05:22:47 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - So now you are telling us that Bush must answer the question in the time alloted by MS Thomas? Puleaseeeeeee. Quit that. I'm laughing so hard it actually hurts. charlie writes:
    As if. Nah, more like 45 minutes to walk the dog, talk to the neighbors, snag some chow, make some coffee, catch the news, look at this for 10 seconds and type for 5, but suit yourself, suo.
    Wait a second. Didn't Dark Avenger just say that the question must be answered immediately???? (Back to laughing. You two are hoots. You should take your act on the road.)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 06:21:27 PM EST
    Posted by Jondee March 22, 2006 01:28 PM
    Charlie - Whatever the Norquists, Scaifes, Koch bros, etc are (I'd call em Randite Libertarians), theyre not the religious right; they use the religious right and the religious right uses them.
    Fine, they're an unholy alliance then. So much the worse. That just makes 'em both that much slimier in my eyes. The kukluxkristian taliban still runs the show in that party. Kevin Phillips was on Lou Dobbs the other night. These people don't give a damn about the debt, the deficit, the trade gap, health care, the environment, global warming or most facets or sectors of the economy because these nitwits think the damned rapture is comin' soon. Seriously, it's on C&L. These Justice Sunday psychos run the republican party. They're the kingmakers. Nobody's gonna make it outta Iowa or past SC without their blessing.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 05:36:48 AM EST
    Besides, they have a word for performers who laugh at their own material(at least in the Pocanos), and it begins with the letter l.
    Ah, yes, the lower Borscht Belt. I see it more like this: Thank You! NEXT!!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 06:41:19 AM EST
    Dark Avenger writes:
    (I had written) Let me see. According to you, he isn't allowed to answer the question the way he wanted to. (you wrote)If it includes talking over someone's attempt to follow up on the question, yes.
    So. A person is asked a question. As he tries to answer the other person tries to ask another question. And the person trying to answer is wrong? hahahahaha Repeat after me: If a person is asked a question by someone, that person is allowed to completely answer the question. Unless, of course, the questioning person is rude, unthoughted and just brimming with "gotcha" so bad they can't wait and just keep interrupting. However, your contention is that the person answering the question must agree to be interrupted, and answer immediately... charlie on the other hand, takes 45 minutes to answer, and that's okay. How many ways would you like that position sliced? And your answer must be: I don't have a position except Bush bad. BTW - Watch the video. Thomas had clearly tried to ask a "gotcha" question, demanding to know "why" Bush wanted to go to war. Bush was doing his best to provide a polite answer, which he did. I would have probably said. "Hey dumb as*. No President wants to go to war. Where do you get such shi*?" Then turning to the audience, "Next question?" But that's just me. charlie - Be careful what you're calling yourself. It might stick. And I guess you never watched Johnny Carson or Red Skelton.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 06:45:30 AM EST
    Cheryl Seal reported this on her "Need to Know News" page yesterday (March 22/06):
    Arctic Oil Disaster: Corroded Pipeline Causes 2nd Worst Alaskan Spill in History The UK Independent reports: "Across the frozen North Slope of Alaska, the region's largest oil accident on record has been sending hundreds of thousands of litres of crude pouring into the Arctic Ocean during the past week after a badly corroded BPO pipeline ruptured.... "The first indication of the spill came in early March, when an oily patch was discovered near the elevated oil transmission pipeline, but the full scale of the accident is only becoming clear with time. Environmentalists who vociferously objected to the construction of the BP pipeline may now see their worst fears realised. "Clean-up crews have removed more than 190,000 litres of crude oil and melted snow off the frozen tundra but reports indicate that the leak is the second largest crude oil spill in Alaska - second only to the 1989 Exxon Valdez disaster." Have you noticed what the big fat blackout of this story by the mainstream media. It SHOULD be a top story, with ongoing updates. But the mainstream kiss-asses gotta keep those oil companies happy...and they sure don't want to step on Bush's toes re: ANWR. More...
    Maybe we can do this the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve too: December 21, 2005 02:50 PM
    Original plans to extract as much as 11 billion barrels of oil from beneath ANWAR's coastal plain--enough to fuel American cars, trucks and SUV's for nearly one and a half years... MORE...
    Wouldn't that be fun? Destroy forever an entire ecosystem so we can drive cars for 18 months...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 06:57:08 AM EST
    TL, Do you have any comment regarding the ongoing situation in Colorado concerning the "Preble's Mouse" and its listing as an endangered species even though it appears not to be a species at all? Is there not an injustice issue here, given that private landowners are being punished financially to protect a species that doesn't exist? Any thoughts?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 08:05:44 AM EST
    That's really how to do it, PPJ! I would fear to put a book of astonomy in your hands, you'd find excerpts from it and have illogical comments to them to prove that the sun rises in the west. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Seriously, you're spinning your wheels here, so I'm not going to take up bandwidth by persuing your tiny, snitty, snarky attempt at a feud here. Your attempt at logic-chopping here suggests that you have a new career ahead of you, writing the scripts for direct-to-video action movies. That task is way simpler than your present abortive undertaking, and perhaps as renumermative as well :>) Engaging in urological activities while telling me my lower limbs are experiencing moisture as a result of meterological changes is getting old fast, and you'll not even be fit for the Catskills if your deterioration as documented in this thread continues unchecked. charlie, table 60 is running out of whine, could you bring out another bottle while I slice PPJ some more Velveeta? TTFN

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 09:57:26 AM EST
    ppj - That wasnt a lie, it was a supposition.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 09:57:39 AM EST
    How about this one, a small city in CA has banned smoking in all outdoor places except designated smoking areas. Smokers who light up can be fined $500. Personally, I detest the smell of cig smoke and say "Right on!" to Calabasas. But is it constitutional?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 10:19:45 AM EST
    I'd cheer if they banned most perfumes from being worn in outside public spaces, but that would be tyranny...just like that smoking ban. Tyranny is inherently uncool. Shame on Calabasas. Freedom means putting up with some crap you might not like.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 10:42:47 AM EST
    kdog, you're probably up on this more than I am, but the city is claiming that second-hand smoke is a proven health risk and that's the reason they're banning it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 01:48:11 PM EST
    Outdoors? Second hand smoke worse than car exhaust? Please. I don't like the ban in bars, but at least the second hand smoke argument holds water indoors. Outdoors? They are full of it. Once again, I think it's about raking in fines from an unpopular segment of society.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 02:21:37 PM EST
    I tend to agree with you kdog on whether cig smoke is dangerous outdoors, although there doesn't seem to be any definative research done on it to reference. I don't agree, though, with your belief that, really, Calabasas is just after smokers' money through fines. This town is next to mine and I've been following the story for months. They really think cig smoke is dangerous - the money from the 14 people/year that actually end up getting popped with a fine is likely insignificant to the city.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 02:32:30 PM EST
    It's not about money, it's about feeling morally superior to cigarette smokers. I don't like cigarette smoke any more than the next guy. I seriously doubt, however, that the occasional smoker in the same room as me at a restaurant is going to do any real harm to my health in the long-run. I may find the smell obnoxious and bothersome, but the cig smoker probably finds my screaming toddler just as obnoxious and bothersome, yet no one is suggesting we ban babies from public places.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 03:02:00 PM EST
    I seriously doubt, however, that the occasional smoker in the same room as me at a restaurant is going to do any real harm to my health in the long-run.
    Have you looked at any of the research on this? It's kind of like saying that you seriously doubt an occasional ingestion of lead paint won't do any harm to your health in the long-run.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 03:05:09 PM EST
    Well said Chase. I will defer to you on their motivations sarc, you would know better than I as it is your neck of the woods. I agree any money raised would be minimal. I also don't see how such a study would even be necessary. Stand next to a smoker outdoors, then stand next to a charcoal barbecue or an idling car. It's self explanatory where the potential health risk is. Better ban barbecues for our own good.
    "There was just so much smoke," Arnold said, "there were smokers to my left and my right and I just got overwhelmed with having to sit out there and breathe the smoke."
    Did Ms. Arnold think of sitting somewhere else? I run into sights and smells I don't like on occasion...my first instinct is to go or sit someplace else. Not run to city hall and whine. Squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess. It's a shame. Do you know the political party of the mayor, the article didn't say. My gut tells me I have a Dem to thank for this travesty. I part company with my liberal friends with their nannyish stance on some public health and safety issues. BTW..Thanks for the link. I'd bet you knew I'd get all riled up over it...it really gets my goat.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 03:12:58 PM EST
    I'll give you restaraunts. I don't like someone smoking while I eat either. The ban in bars is silly. The irony of protecting people drinking poison from second hand smoke is not lost on me. Outdoor ban? You're an anti-smoking nazi.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 03:23:41 PM EST
    Yep, kdog, I figured you'd be interested in it. Not sure what political party the mayor belongs to. Local politics is defined mostly defined by which camp you're in - either the old school "we-founded-the-damn-city-so-shut-up" camp, and everybody else. (Indeed, Dennis Washburn, current Calabasas mayor serving his 4th term, was the founder of the city). Locally, rep/dem rarely comes into play, if ever. Though this is CA, he is tied into the LA county/city power structure, so he's almost assuredly a Dem...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 03:42:52 PM EST
    Have you looked at any of the research on this?
    I've seen research that say "second-hand smoke kills millions annually" and research that says "no scientific link". Intuitively, sucking in smoke is bad for you. I don't know who really thought otherwise in the 40s and 50s. Wouldn't the incessant coughing and hacking up crud give it away over time? I think a model has developed for things like smoking bans: where ever they pop up, you'll find a nice contingent of well-meaning elites that feel their moral superiority commands they look out for everyone else. Much like kdog's hypothetical command to Ms. Arnold: if you don't like it, move!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 04:03:09 PM EST
    Obviously, you've never seen Magazine or TV ads from the 40s and 50s with Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams or Peewee Reese endorsing Old Golds or Lucky Strikes or Chesterfields for their smooth tobacco taste as part of their training regimen. But, then what red-blooded American boy of that era would want to emulate those guys? I'm sure the 9 year-olds were buyin' the Old Golds for the coupons so they could get that patio furniture. Christ, repos are thick.

    Tuesday Open Thread | 49 comments (49 topical)