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Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghraib Photos

Salon has published the entire collection of Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse photos. It was January 10, 2004, that the first abuse photos were handed over to the military by Spc. Joseph Darby. The Army commenced its investigation the next day. Many publications published selected photos in the aftermath. Yesterday, for the first time, all of the photos in the Army's dossier were put on the Internet, by Salon.

Today Salon presents an archive of 279 photos and 19 videos of Abu Ghraib abuse first gathered by the CID, along with information drawn from the CID's own timeline of the events depicted.

President Bush tells us the United States does not torture. What is this? Or this or this?

Most of the photos have already been seen, but the Army's own analysis of the story behind the photos has never been fully told. It is a shocking, night-by-night record of three months inside Abu Ghraib's notorious cellblock 1A, and it tells the story, in more graphic detail than ever before, of the rampant abuse of prisoners there. The annotated archive also includes new details about the role of the CIA, military intelligence and the CID itself in abuse captured by cameras in the fall of 2003.

The Bush administration, which recently announced plans to shut the notorious prison and transfer detainees to other sites in Iraq, would like the world to believe that it has dealt with the abuse, and that it's time to move on. But questions about what took place there, and who was responsible, won't end with Abu Ghraib's closure.

The trial of Abu Ghraib dog handler Sgt. Michael J. Smith continues. The testimony Tuesday:

An Army dog handler charged with using his animal to terrify Abu Ghraib prisoners laughingly claimed he was competing with a comrade to frighten detainees into soiling themselves, according to testimony Tuesday at his court-martial.

The testimony on the second day of the trial was the most damaging evidence yet against Sgt. Michael J. Smith. The witness, Sgt. John H. Ketzer, was an interrogator at the prison in Iraq in 2003 and 2004. He testified that one night, he followed the sounds of screaming to a cell where Smith's black Belgian shepherd was straining against its leash and barking at two cowering, teenage boys.

Ketzer said Smith laughingly told him afterward: "My buddy and I are having a contest to see if we can get them to (defecate on) themselves because we've already had some (urinate on) themselves."

A few bad apples? Read our post from Monday on Sgt. Smith which suggests otherwise.

This abuse was carried out in the name of the United States of America, a country that occupies a position of trust in the world -- and in which it has caused war to be launched on foreign soil. The abuse may have been carried out by "a few bad apples" but it wasn't their idea. The Untied States owes it to every citizen on the planet to find out who, at the highest levels, authorized this torture. Those are the persons who must be held primarily responsible and sanctioned for their acts.

When Bush's presidency is over, the historical review of his tenure will be shamed by this above all. As it should be.

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  • Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#1)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 02:11:04 AM EST
    I guess I'll kick off the inevitable troll response. "The truth? Americans can't handle the truth!"

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 03:39:58 AM EST
    The United States has a long history of torture and it is deeply a part of what America is, despite a sizable minority who are deeply offended by its practice. The fundamental change in thinking necessary for the US to abandon its practice is monumental in scope and no where on the horizon. In fact as one looks around the world, one is forced to consider that torture springs from some fundamental flaw or weakness in humanity which has been overcome by only a small percentage. The publication of pictures such as these is necessary but will offend only those who have already been offended. Many will look at them see the Iraqis and in their mind say "so what". Dont underestimate the power of the impulses within so many people which allows this to continue and the size of the effort to stop these actions.

    I guess I'll kick off the inevitable troll response.
    No, the troll response here and throughout the world of wingnuttery will be that "publishing these pictures will embolden the terrorists!" (Nevermind that it's the act of the torture itself that pisses the Muslim world off, not that we're publishing pictures of it.) And prepare for the new round of "it's just like a few frat house pranks, no big deal at all."

    Gee, SD, what's the world comin' to when I look like Pollyanna, but while you've got a point to a point, I've gotta believe that there's people in the middle who look at these nitwits currently runnin' the show, their acolytes, their track record and the results and say NFW, we've seen enough of your sorry act, you're outta here. Otherwise, why get up in the morning.

    Meanwhile, Salon oh so delicately won't publish the Danish cartoons. It's almost as if they know that they are safe from reprisals from the US, but in danger of same from Islamists.

    Are you gonna surprise us and have an actual point for a change, jr, or will you have your usual?

    SoccerD
    The United States has a long history of torture
    I'm a history buff and I'd like to see the basis of this outlandish claim. To my knowledge never in our intire history, until now has our Govt sanctioned or institutionalized Torture. I can't believe you could so casually infer that what Bushbag&co has perpetrated is SOP. Part of our national tradition per say. As an American I am personally offended.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:02:38 AM EST
    I agree JR albeit with some reservations. One is a cartoon, a parody. The other confirms what has been long suspected about our treatment of prisoners and human rights abuses. It seems to me that a story can be made for the fanaticism with which some muslims respond over a cartoon and how it falls into the greater picture of tolerance. Respect begins with introspection and it is hard for the masses to respect their beliefs when the fanatics appear to be controlling their masses.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:23:04 AM EST
    JR - Good point and nicely made. charlie - His point was that the Left is hypocritical by screaming over this issue but not over the reactions of the Moslems, and the knuckling under to that reaction, by various magazines, newspapers and TV reporting. Here is a link explaining it to you. All you gave to do is your cursor on it and click. Link After reading, please don't respond as I don't want to hijack the thread, just educate you.

    NY Sun. Daniel Pipes. What, no anti- Muhammad Ali rant! Thanks anyway, I'll pass on the right wing crazy train ride. No wonder ya didn't want me to respond. I almost fell asleep waitin' for that beach ball to get to the plate.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:37:23 AM EST
    ED well obviously you haven't read any history besides the propaganda that you got in Jr high. The most obvious case is the genocide of the Indians which was carried out o further the interests of business try reading "bury my heart at wounded knee". Up until the 1930's middle class Americans used to get their kids dressed up in their Sunday finest, pack a picnic lunch and go down to the square and watch the lynching as there was nothing like a good lynching for family entertainment. Then we have out troops actions in the Phillipines, Viet Nam and now Iraq. We lock up a sizable proportion of our population in conditions that when carried out in 3rd world countries we all decry as torture or inhumane but which hardly get a mention when done here. I can give you many more examples but if you had really cared you would have known this by know. So continue to hide behind the hypocricy or ignorance, you can choose, which in fact actually allows this torture to continue.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:39:11 AM EST
    JR and PPJ our head moral relativists are here to tell you that no matter what we have done "they" are worse and therefore we are not morally accountable. Oh and dont forget to shoot the messenger.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:45:20 AM EST
    Ed, actually as an American you are actually ignorant of your own history and unwilling to view it in the light of day.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:45:30 AM EST
    If this were a cartoon depicting Christ in a compromising position and Falwell/Robertson were calling for the death of the publisher, where would salon be on the publishing of the cartoons? My guess is that they would undeniably and unapologetically publish them. While it does not excuse the soldiers behavior who were responsible for the inhumane treatment of prisoners. I have always been at odds over the decision to print the photos and my concreteness relative to transparency. It is the right decision to print them so that there is a semblance of checks and balances and it seems to me to be an obvious double standard not to print the cartoon.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#15)
    by rMatey on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:54:37 AM EST
    And I suppose that 400 people all died from "natural" causes under detention? Boy, they sure do die young.

    Meanwhile, Salon oh so delicately won't publish the Danish cartoons. It's almost as if they know that they are safe from reprisals from the US, but in danger of same from Islamists.
    I suppose you could look at it that way, but did you actually see the cartoons? I did. They were retarded. Maybe my cultural eye is untrained but none of them made sense except for the infamous "Mohammed with a burning fuse sticking out of his head". I'm pretty sure 99% of Americans would be as befuddled as I was. There's nothing confusing about a guy who's been hit in the a** with a shotgun, except for that nagging suspicion that Cheney was involved.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:09:42 AM EST
    So, since the cartoons were not funny, or they were confusing, they should not print them? It would seem to me that would provide an excellent forum to explain the toxicity of the cartoon relative to the belief systems of those that want to kill the publisher. It is a parody, and america takes great pride in its freedom to publish parody, why should our values be compromised or censored because it offends a certain portion (not all) of those in the muslim faith? Seems to me that freedom of the press is at issue here and our sensitivity toward the islamic faith. I loved it when Mr. Flynt and hustler took on Falwell, and it seems to me that many here supported Mr. Flynts right to do so. And my guess is that many here would have found those cartoons tasteless and not funny, but would defend his right nonetheless.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#18)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:11:17 AM EST
    Otherwise, why get up in the morning.
    I have a wife and 4 kids who have come to expect a roof over their head, food on the table and a never ending supply of cash. Other than that i got nothing that would overcome the overwhelming hypocrisy, lack of morality, and injustice that is clearly visible. I curse my parents for trying to instill a sense of morality in me and I now regret doing the same with my kids as I have now set them up to be taken advantage of, left behind, and eternally disappointed.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#19)
    by Pete Guither on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:21:24 AM EST
    There's something tired about the whole "they'll print this, but not this" argument that keeps coming around. You really can't compare the torture photos with the cartoons. In my view, both should be printed, but that's up to the individual media. On the other hand, there's a clear difference in the relevance. When it comes to the cartoons, it's newsworthy that the cartoons caused rioting. And it maybe helps us understand something. But there's not a lot we as American citizens can directly do about it. But with the torture photos, this is what our employees are doing in our name. In a government by/for/of the people, we are responsible for what our government does. It is therefore imperative that we know in detail and can correct any improper activities.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#20)
    by aw on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:31:27 AM EST
    His point was that the Left is hypocritical by screaming over this issue
    Why isn't the right screaming, PPJ? Why aren't you screaming? This is being done in your name.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#22)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 07:54:06 AM EST
    SD and Ed Beckman, Though not technically torture, SD presents good examples of brutality by the US. Nothing new. But don't confuse genocide with torture SD. I'm not justifying Ed's skepticism, because you are both on the same side of the fence on the issue of torture. As a Vietnam vet, I understand Ed's taking issue with the history. I would advise being a bit less acrimonious towards him SD, and try to educate. By the way, welcome back.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 08:31:22 AM EST
    P Guither, I usually agree with you and believe your responses here are typically some of the best. However, I disagree here. In the interest of democracy and transparency salon is copping out. I realize the torture pictures are criminal in nature and need to be published to further promote and demand accountability. The cartoons on the other hand speak to the larger issue of americans' view of the muslim world, and their "fanaticism". The cartoons speak to a larger issue of accountability by the clerics responsible for leading the flocks. Accountability and sensibility toward parody and freedom of speech and or expression. I expect the clerics to order a fatwah of tolerance for the publisher of the cartoon and conduct prayer vigils for their souls. It seems to me that the issue of fanaticism irrespective of the religion, should be examined. I am afraid that our opinion of how islam is distorted in our country takes precedent over reporting this issue. I don't believe they deserve equal time, but I do think they are copping out by not running the cartoon and establishing a dialogue pursuant to those who would kill for the message.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#24)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 08:33:22 AM EST
    JR and PPJ: the major difference between the cartoons and the torture, one that you seem to have missed, is that the cartoons were published in another country by privately held businesses, while the torture was done by Americans as a coordinated military policy. I have nothing to say about the cartoons, because they were not published with my money and in my name. Is it a "liberal" position to take offense at something completely immoral and done in my name and with my money v. something done by someone who has no connection to me? Go ahead and publish all of them... right next to the ones of the people jumping out of the 110 th floor of the WTC! Do you have evidence that any of the prisoners tortured to death had anything to do with that, or is this just gratuitous racism? You are going to have to connect the two thoughts for me, since I can't seem to do so myself. Isn't America supposed to be better than the terrorists, or are we required to give up our moral compass because somebody else doesn't have one?

    SD,Che Let me clarify. There is some confusion here concerning my objection to SD's statement. I do not dispute the fact that this country has engaged in despicable acts including genocide and cruelty. We could go on and on about the kind of Mistreatment and torture inflicted on african americans during and after slavery alone. My issue is with the President and his Administrations justification, advocation and official sanction and implementation of torture. I guess I could be wrong but I doubt it.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 09:23:50 AM EST
    Agreed BB. How many times can one act be reused by the left to bash this president? We get it already. It was wrong, people are going to jail, the pictures are released everybody knows. If we were a real tortuing country, like say syria or Egypt we as Americans wouldn't even know this happened except for rumors. Instead we live in a democracy, the pictures were published re-hashed over and over and if not enough once more this week. That the left of this country feels the need to freak out all over again everytime these pictures are even mentioned shows how unserious they consider the threat of terrorism and radical Islam. This falls into the same pattern, NSA, Patriot Act, torture on and on the president is the real bad guy, not the Radical Islamists that want the entire world to live in the 15th century and will kill you and themselves to make it happen. How are me and other wingnuts not supposed to gather from these posts that most on the "left" are more worried about ruining this president then protecting the country and our way of life from terrorists?

    If we were a real tortuing country, like say syria or Egypt we as Americans wouldn't even know this happened except for rumors. Instead we live in a democracy, the pictures were published re-hashed over and over and if not enough once more this week.
    Um, Slado - are you implying that out government voluntarily released these pictures? Weren't they originally a "leak"? Haven't they been fighting tooth and nail ever since? These are not the actions of a government that wants to come clean in a free/democratic kinda way. This is a government that's trying to be like Egypt and Syria and failing. Color me unimpressed.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 10:03:46 AM EST
    Repack - What you fail to grasp is that the point is the lack of reaction, the lack of outrage. Are those injured/killed in the radical Moslem riots any less injured/dead than the ones you claim such sympathy for? As noted by Slado, we get the picture. There have been investigations, charges, trials and punishment. Will the Moslem Imams who incited the riots be charged and tried? No. You know and I know it. Will the Moslem rioters who killed 13 Christians, including two children and a Priest by putting a tire around his neck, filling it with gasoline and setting it on fire be punished? Will Mohammed Reza Taheriazar who tried to kill dozens at the UNC in Chapel Hill be charged with terrorism? Or will he be patted on the head and given a very light sentence despite his statements of desire to kill Americans? Perhaps Yale will let him enter into some advanced degree program as rehabilitation. Again. The issue is the continual lack of outrage over the acts of terrorist while we have a conflagration of self beating over the issue of treatment of the prisoners. Brother, can you spare a dime for a cup of condemnation of radical Moslems?

    Another day, another round of ludicrous, baseless, shrub shillin' blarney from Jim and the boys. So much shrub shillin' nonsense, so little time. BB's tired of hearing about the abu ghraib pictures. Gee, that's rough, fella. Imagine how the Germans who did nothing at all felt about the Auschwitz Pictures? Then again, they did nothing at all. And Jim and JR are playin' the where's the Islamic Outrage Card as if that gets shrubco off the hook for clearly bein' in the premeditated torture biz. Not a prayer. And it becomes less and less hysterical and more and more pathetic as Jim and his merry band try to spin this delusional drivel they cling to as some kind of enlightened viewpoint when they're just deadenders refusing to face the inevitable fall of the 43rd reich.

    How are me and other wingnuts not supposed to gather from these posts that most on the "left" are more worried about ruining this president then protecting the country and our way of life from terrorists?
    The best way to protect this Country from Radical Islamic Terrorists is to get rid of this corrupt incompetent President and his administration and this rubber stamp congress so we can effectively protect it from the likes of them and you wingnuts who only get in the way of protecting the Country against Radical Islamic Terrorists and our other enemies foreign and domestic like you guys. Am I goin' too fast for ya?

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#31)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 11:09:29 AM EST
    No charlie simplistic arguements are quite easy to follow. Rather then deal with the real threat liberals instead hurl thier insults and crticims at someone who they know can take it and won't fight back, their own government. See appeasement 1930's and Communism 1950's for examples of when some americans confused their own country for the enemy. 20years from now the "left" will have forgotten how wrong they were about Bush and radical Islam just like they've forgotten how wrong they were about communism. Fortunately the good guys usually win in this world even when some can't figure out who the good guys really are.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 11:28:28 AM EST
    Fortunately the good guys usually win in this world even when some can't figure out who the good guys really are.
    Just so I have this straight, the guys strapping electrodes to another human being's testes (and the govt. that condones it or turns a blind eye) are the good guys? Personally I see bad guys and worse guys.

    Well, we know it wasn't McCarthy or Roy Cohn. We know it wasn't Nixon. We know it wasn't Ollie North or any of those other Iran-Contra nitwits Shrub's dredged up for us. We know it wasn't Newt or any of his knuckleheads. We know it's not this wasp corleone family bunch of incompetent criminals and we know it's not the likes of you, so knowin' who isn't on the big league roster is half the battle.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 01:35:04 PM EST
    Al, I agree the post is about the pictures but what I do not understand is the double standard. The pictures depict a horrifying sense of deprivation on the part of those inflicting torture and demonstrate the power of democracy and transparency in gov't, good and bad. Failing to print the cartoons and report on the fallout demonstrates a lack of transparency on the issue, does it not? I fully support freedom of religion while simutaneously supporting freedom from religion. Hence, I believe Salon should post the cartoons and cover the story to illustrate the fanaticism of some of their followers. No different than the support I gave to the "passion of the christ" when it came out.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#36)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 01:35:58 PM EST
    What's the plan BB? Slado? Whizzy? JR? What's the effing PLAN, guys? Stop attacking the messengers here. The place is a S***hole. Your boy screwed the pooch and you still bang your heads against the wall. Poor rightards. Too numb to even know that the mission was accomplished by our armed forces nearly three years ago. Saddam - out. WMD - none. Should have quit while we were ahead. But as usual, we've overstayed our welcome. I propose we get out pronto before they mount a massive attack in the Green Zone, such as has been reported here A senior Defense Ministry official said the 421 al-Qaida fighters were recruited to storm the U.S. and British embassies and take hostages. Several ranking Defense Ministry officials have been jailed in the plot, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 01:40:55 PM EST
    Still talking drawdown? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Lucky for you wingers you can't be banned just for being as stubborn as a jackass.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#38)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 01:43:53 PM EST
    I mean mule. Maybe

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#39)
    by Lww on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 02:08:05 PM EST
    Che, hate to repeat myself but why the constant attacks against the grunts who take their orders; these people are victims in their own right. They're easy targets. The lowlifes who profit from this bogus, murderous war should be exposed, not the $900 a month non-coms. How safe it is to attack these soldiers? No guts no glory.

    I would advise the rightwingers here to just sit back and wait for 2009 or 2010. When the Democratic president launches her or his "liberation" of Sudan you will get plenty of opportunities to use the inevitable torture scandals for your own partisan ends.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 03:03:34 PM EST
    kdog - The "government" the Left is complaining about is the same government who investigated, charged, tried and convicted (some) people. To continue to beat this issue proves that the Left likes dead horses, or just continually looks for a reason to attack Bush. Hmmm. Mistake. The Left does both. Mistake. It is not just Bush. It is the country they want changed.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lww on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 03:05:07 PM EST
    Mar, you think a democratic president would go into The Sudan? Clinton was on top of the Rwandan slaughter. Maybe if we find some oil under it or discover The Sudan is a mortal enemy of Isreal we'll bomb them into submission. You need a diagram?

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#43)
    by Al on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 03:16:01 PM EST
    There's no double standard, jlvgnston. The Abu Ghraib images are evidence of the most despicable acts, on which people of all religions and cultures will agree, because they were acts against the most basic human rights. The cartoons were satirical statements, which offend at least those for whom satire about Mohammed is offensive. The Abu Ghraib pictures are not abusive in themselves, but are evidence of abuse. The cartoons are abusive in themselves. To not publish the Abu Ghraib images would be censorship; to not publish the cartoons is to prevent the abuse from taking place. (I'm not judging whether the cartoons are objectively abusive or not; it's all in the eye of the beholder). Furthermore, I claim that the people who try to compare the two in this forum are aware of this difference, and the reference to the cartoons is a red herring.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 04:26:57 PM EST
    Al writes:
    to not publish the cartoons is to prevent the abuse from taking place. (I'm not judging whether the cartoons are objectively abusive or not; it's all in the eye of the beholder).
    Then you are willing to let the Moslems determine what can be said. That is censorship of the vilest kind.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#45)
    by Al on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 04:53:22 PM EST
    PPJ, first of all if there are various degrees of vileness in censorship, then I think your desire to censor the Abu Ghraib images is of the vilest kind. Second, not publishing the cartoons is not censorship. As I wrote earlier, it is preventing the actual abuse, because the cartoons are the abuse, at least as some Muslims perceive it. Whether they should be published or not is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Third, I insist again that your attempt to link the Abu Ghraib images with the cartoons is disingenuous. The two are not linked, and I think you understand that perfectly well.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#46)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:16:56 PM EST
    Uhh, sorry folks, but what the hell does Ruwanda and cartoons have to do with Americans torturing people?

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:17:58 PM EST
    PPJ, who can't seem to even find the dots to connect: Are those injured/killed in the radical Moslem riots any less injured/dead than the ones you claim such sympathy for? No, but since my government took no part in either the event that sparked the riots or the riots themselves, I have no connection to those deaths. I feel guilt for deaths that I tried to stop by protesting the invasion, and failed. I feel guilt because my country is committing acts of evil that we used to condemn, but now some citizens, having abandoned all morality, celebrate. Prisoners tortured and killed by Americans have been injured in my name as an American. If one of your employees killed someone while on the clock working for you, would you be more upset that your own employee was a murderer than if a perfect stranger in another country killed someone, or would you be equally upset with both murderers?

    Another day, another round of the same baseless, mindless, sorry slop from "the right" insisting critics of shrubco have to be content with the token sacrificial lambs they've offered up in the Abu Ghraib Torture Murder Scandal and neocon patent medicine/snakeoil sales and distribution comedy review. Of course, this is the very scandal that they insisted didn't exist, tried to cover up, insisted wasn't that bad, compared to a fraternity prank, and yada, yada, yada, you've seen how they handle one of these things, you've seen how they handle them all. It's curious how "the right" always dismisses critics of shrubco as "bush haters" or "bush bashers" as if no criticism of their hero could possibly be valid. They never take the time to delve into the substance of the criticism or the reasons for it, so let me set the record straight. Bush gets Bashed for plenty of good reasons. Take incompetence and dishonesty for openers. He's detested by people who care about this Country and actually value the things it supposedly stands for like Justice, Fair play and Freedom.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#49)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 05:52:53 PM EST
    Che, hate to repeat myself but why the constant attacks against the grunts who take their orders; Unless PPJ, BB, Slado and JR are grunts, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please highlight where I dissed the grunts. I know who the real perps are. Take another sip.

    I have seen most of the Salon photos, and some of the videos. Admittedly, I didnt see them all. I didnt stop because of horror, but because of tediousness. Just about every one I saw violated the minimal standard I would expect from our soldiers but were not 'shocking'. Just about every one of them I saw, I had seen in the original picture release. If you try and tell me that the posting of these pictures, and the reposting, and the reposting, and the reposting are not a product of people that have serious problems with the President and his policies then you are a liar. Soccer "Up until the 1930's middle class Americans used to get their kids dressed up in their Sunday finest, pack a picnic lunch and go down to the square and watch the lynching as there was nothing like a good lynching for family entertainment." It must be a miserable life to hate this country so bad and yet be so much a part of it. If you believe what you said..... well... If you have a shred of honesty, you will acknowledge you are a bombastic liar.

    Posted by Slado March 15, 2006 12:09 PM
    No charlie simplistic arguements are quite easy to follow.
    Rather then deal with the real threat liberals instead hurl thier insults and crticims at someone who they know can take it and won't fight back, their own government.
    See appeasement 1930's and Communism 1950's for examples of when some americans confused their own country for the enemy.
    Really? That's a good one. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that this administration can take it or that they've done anything but fight back be it with warrantless domestic wiretaps, imperial power grabs, spying on Pittsburgh Peace groups or Quakers in the basement. Indeed, Barry Bonds and Albert Belle seem to handle the Media and have more maturity and credibility with respect to their training regimens and domestic relations than this administration does with anything related to honesty or integrity or "taking it." Besides, if you're gonna make a compelling argument, it helps to learn how to spell the word. Just a suggestion. And as for your history lesson, there's just a few flies in the ointment as it were. The appeasement of which you speak refers to Neville Chamberlain. He was Prime Minister of Great Britain. We were no longer part of Great Britain at the time having won our independence some 165 years before hand. Perhaps you've heard about it? It was in all the papers. It was even in the History Books in the Schools where I was educated. Washington's Crossing was a mere 30 miles from our elementary school. We used to go there all the time. Valley Forge, too. Morristown. It was no big deal. In 5th Grade, it's just fun to get outta school. And as for US entrance into WWII, if you'll recall, it was the republicans who were the isolationists - just as they had been in WWI. Charles Lindbergh - a prominent republican - had made a famous trip to Germany in 1938 to Germany to meet with Goring and some Aviation bigwigs. He advocated neutrality with Hitler. Roosevelt had to come up with the "Lend Lease" policy to supply Churchill and later Stalin to get around republican objections. Republicans actually accused him of allowing Pearl Harbor to happen just so he could get us into WWII. They launched numerous investigations during the dark days of '42-'43. They didn't get anything, but they weren't deterred by the fact we were at war or the moral or the troops or rosie the riveter and the home front, so this sudden "we're at war" and "what about the moral of the troops" nonsense from the repos now is - at best - nauseating. Harry Truman also looked into War Profiteering at the height of the War. Hello, Halliburton. If they could do it then, they can do it now. Scammin' and skimmin' in time of war should be a hangin' offense. That means you, shooter.

    This ridiculous insistence on equating love of Country with love of shrub is nauseating. If anything, just the opposite is true. We love our Country. That's why we want this lyin', incompetent clown, his administration and this pathetic rubber stamp congress outta there and I mean pronto. This nitwit is unquestionably the worst President in US History. The best step we can take to protect this Country is to rid ourselves of these troublesome creeps.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#53)
    by Al on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 06:56:20 PM EST
    Demohypocrates, if you don't find the Abu Ghraib images repugnant, but merely tedious, that's your problem. You can't expect everyone else to sink to your standards. And you bet I have a serious problem with the President and his policies.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 08:09:41 PM EST
    Al - Perhaps you can show me where I said to not publish the photograps? The facts are, of course, that you can't, because I didn't. Your claim is as false as your other statements. Not publishing the cartoons is censor by threat of violence. Or worse, by self inflicted terror. How does beneath your bed look? Seriously. Isn't freedom of speech especially created for speech that offends? Or does that matter in your terrified PC world?

    Um. I guess it is just me, but it seems like a debate over choosing cartoons to print has zero relevance to publishing photos of these actions. As taxpayers and "citizens", we ***should*** have a right to know of the actions being carried out in our name and at our expense. Especially when they involve invading foreign countries, killing their people, etc. You know, semantics. Little stuff like that. I know, I know. Americans will spend more time and more money on consumerism if they're not distracted by the stuff being done to maintain it. Ssshh.

    Slado has yet to explain how these photos being leaked proves that it's all about freedom and democracy:
    If we were a real tortuing country, like say syria or Egypt we as Americans wouldn't even know this happened except for rumors. Instead we live in a democracy, the pictures were published re-hashed over and over and if not enough once more this week.
    This makes about as much sense as if I said the black market in the USSR proved that it was really a capitalist nation. No, it proved that communism failed. These photos being leaked by journalists does not prove that the government intended them to be viewed by the public. Quite the opposite. If the government was trying to be open, these photos would have been released months earlier. Ya know?

    It's not relevant to the topic, but you might be interested in knowing that the problems in Sudan are about control of oil-rich territory.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#58)
    by Al on Wed Mar 15, 2006 at 10:18:29 PM EST
    Jim, for all your frothing at the mouth about cartoons, decent people know what was done at Abu Ghraib was despicable, and we need to be reminded permanently that this happened, and that the people who made it possible are still in power, and still have the power to continue perpetrating these awful crimes. No decent human being can think for a moment about condoning these horrors, or relativizing them. Take a good look at this. Go on, take a good look at the grinning soldier and the mangled corpse. Then take a good look at yourself, PPJ. You too, jlvngstn, who thinks that this is merely "tedious" and not shocking. I hope you at least have the decency to have nightmares, knowing that this is what you're defending.

    Mar, you think a democratic president would go into The Sudan? I have seen quite a lot of support among American leftists for a liberation of Sudan, apparently because it, contrary to Iraq, is perceived as a "Democratic" war. See also: mr. Clinton's war in Kosovo and who supported it.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:49:59 AM EST
    Al - You keep on making inaccurate comments. I never said torture was good and I never said that the pictures should not be published. But that's typical. What I have said was that the Left has acted cowardly in the matter of the cartoons, bowing to the demands of the radical Moslems, perhaps out of a totally misplaced sense of PC, perhaps out of fear. Either way it sends the wrong message to the radical terrorists, and an even worse message to moderate Moslems who now see that we will not stand up to the terrorists. This demostrates a huge disregard of freedom of speech and a huge bias against our own government who are, as we write, busy cleaning up the mess. In other words, Salon would enjoy some small bit of respect had they noted the clean up and published the cartoons.

    This demostrates a huge disregard of freedom of speech and a huge bias against our own government who are, as we write, busy cleaning up the mess.
    Yeah, the mess they created.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:41:02 AM EST
    What I have said was that the Left has acted cowardly in the matter of the cartoons, bowing to the demands of the radical Moslems There we go, giving in to the terrorists again. Proof positive you are a paid shill for Bushco's fascist information ministry, and a running joke at Talkleft.

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#63)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:11:12 AM EST
    This demostrates a huge disregard of freedom of speech This is slightly off topic Jim, but it has to do with freedom of speech and those who believe in it. Do you have any idea why most right-wing sites don't permit comments, and those that do, will often ban readers who espouse liberal viewpoints?

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#64)
    by theologicus on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:51:05 AM EST
    It's time to take action and organize. We need to end America's shame and the terror inflicted on others. National Religious Campaign Against Torture

    Anyone who wants to learn about the 50 year history of the CIA's research & development of 'no-touch' torture techniques including self-inflicted pain & sensory deprivation need only look at Alfred McCoy's book, _A Question of Torture_ or google his article "The Hidden History of CIA Torture." He claims that what the Abu Ghraib pictures "record are CIA torture techniques that have metastasized like an undetected cancer inside the U.S. intelligence community over the past half century . . . Looked at historically, the Abu Ghraib scandal is the product of a deeply contradictory U.S. policy toward torture since the start of the Cold War."

    Re: Salon Publishes Entire Collection of Abu Ghrai (none / 0) (#66)
    by Sailor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 04:27:38 PM EST
    The "government" the Left is complaining about is the same government who investigated, charged, tried and convicted (some) people.
    Uhh, no. They have deliberately gone after the low level abusers and completely ignored the fact the abu gonzales, et al, authorized these techniques. The proof is in the fact that these crimes didn't happen in Abu Ghraib until General Miller took over, the same guy who started them at gitmo. BTW, the commenters constantly trying to equate cartoons with torture just shows exactly how weak their case is.