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If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely

The New York Times reports that the White House has dropped its tone of levity over the Cheney shooting of Texas lawyer Harry Whittington, following Whittington's heart attack this morning, caused by a pellet that lodged or migrated to his heart.

The turn for the worse in Mr. Whittington's health changed the White House response to the hunting accident as well as the response of local law officials in Texas. Officials there said that they were monitoring the case and Carlos Valdez, the district attorney in Kleberg County, said a fatality would require a new report from the local sheriff and, most likely, a grand jury investigation.

Cheney's handling of the incident has caused tension between his office and the office of the President. And many medical experts are disputing the Texas doctor's version of Whittington's condition.

Attytood has more on lobbyist and Texas ranch owner Katharine Armstrong. Our prior post on Armstrong and her family's connections is here, and a related post on Kenedy County, hunting ground for the Texas political heavyweights is here.

Happiness may be a warm gun, but it looks like Cheney could get cold-cocked over this. He still hasn't made a public statement and even the White House thinks he should.

What is Cheney hiding? What is his relationship with Katharine Armstrong and Pamela Willeford, the U.S. Ambassador to Switzerland? Why isn't Willeford listed as an eyewitness on the incident report? She was right there with Cheney, not seated in car watching from a distance. Were they drinking while they were hunting? The report says no, but it was written before Cheney or Whittington were interviewed, so either the Secret Service or Armstrong must have been the source of the information. Was alcohol consumed at lunch? Where does Karl Rove fit in this story? Like Cheney, he's a frequent guest at the Armstrong Ranch. Was it his P.R. strategy to have Armstrong be the one to tell the press?

How angry is Lynne Cheney? [incorrect statement deleted.]Do you think she knew who his hunting partners would be?

Will this be the final straw in the already tense relationship between Cheney and Bush? Will Bush hang Cheney out to dry? He wouldn't do it just over the shooting. If it happens, is it a sign that Cheney is about to get defrocked for his role in the Valerie Plame leak?

Cheney's already lost the public relations battle on this one. I bet he's wishing he was in an undisclosed location.

Song of the day for Cheney: Bad Moon Rising.

< New Abu Ghraib Photos Released | Cheney to Speak About Shooting >
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  • Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:33:50 PM EST
    Man, the longer this goes on, the more serious it starts to look. Although it might not be something one should say, I was thinking before the news of Whittington's heart attack that the stress from this could well cause Cheney himself to have another heart attack. In any case, it seems to me Cheney could well go down from this. The embarassment, the personal stress, his status already as an embarassment to the administration in more and more regards. -- I'm starting to think his resignation would not be all that absurd of a result. I guess we'll have to wait for more news. (posted also on my blog)

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:10:03 AM EST
    Well this may finally test my theory that either Bush or Cheney could literally go out and kill someone and get away with it.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:52:01 AM EST
    Seems to me that if Cheney is looking at grand jury possibilities, his STFU act makes a certain amount of sense. How angry is Lynne Cheney? Her husband goes off hunting with a single guy and two women for the weekend. Do you think she knew who his hunting partners would be? Or cared? Their marriage started with him knocking her up to get out of the draft, so we're not talking about a couple with delicate romantic sensibilities. Also, Cheney doesn't have enough extra blood for an erection. I think you're reading 'way too much into that detail. It's not like they were on a double date.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#4)
    by joejoejoe on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:55:16 AM EST
    Pam Willeford. Bootylicious.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:07:33 AM EST
    The turn for the worse in Mr. Whittington's health changed the White House response to the hunting accident as well as the response of local law officials in Texas.
    Is this why Scott Mclellan was cracking tasteless jokes at his press meeting yesterday, after he found out about Whittington's heart attack (but before the public did)? I'll believe they're taking it seriously when they actually do it.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:21:51 AM EST
    I wonder how many people around here are secretly in their hearts hoping this guy dies.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:43:12 AM EST
    Doesn't it make you sick, Wile. The once great democratic party, reduced to ghoulishly and feverishly anticipating the misfortune of this poor guy, just so they can twist the accident for political gain. If it doesn't make us sick, we all should have our heads examined.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#8)
    by DonS on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:47:00 AM EST
    Wile, I think I get your drift, but why don't you extrapolate your "holier than thou" implication for the rest of us. For myself, much though I loathe most anything the Cheney-Bush administration stands for, I have the decency to not to wish someone's death to worsen their fortunes. I wish I could say the same of them, say the Ann Coulter/Rush Limbaugh brigade.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#9)
    by chemoelectric on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:19:37 AM EST
    I find it curious that the shot is in the general area of the heart. It makes me wonder if Cheney is hiding that he pointed his gun at a person and accidentally (let's hope) fired it. Has he ever been known to point a gun at a person? He's obviously a reckless person, but does this extend to his handling of shotguns? That he shot a person while aiming at quail is plenty credible, mind you. But so is reckless gun pointing credible.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:01:15 AM EST
    Posted by joejoejoe February 15, 2006 01:55 AM Pam Willeford. Bootylicious.
    Only if you are partial to that plain jane WASPy debutante thang she has going. But give me Janeane Garofalo anytime!

    One must remember that Lynne Cheney is equally as big a waste of oxygen as her husband. Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. She is every bit the vile swine that he is. If this isn't Adolph and Eva it's Josef and Magda.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:38:48 AM EST
    Yeah, "Bad Moon Risin'" works for Cheney. Shrub's already got "Fortunate Son". Whittington can be "The Old Man Down the Road."

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#13)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:41:28 AM EST
    I wonder how many people around here are secretly in their hearts hoping this guy dies. I don't personally wish him any ill, but if he did it would make me believe in Karma. Mr. Whittington was partying with one of the most evil guys in the world, a man who immediately after the event demonstrated that he has no soul or conscience. There SHOULD be divine retribution for associating with such evil, and the lesson to the world would be how little Cheney cares about his victims.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:42:30 AM EST
    Molly, NYC - A seventy eight year old with a bad ticker???? And his wife concerned about another woman? hahahahahahaha. May you live long enough to understand. And may you not have first hand experience. But you make a good point. Don't all defense lawyers say, STFU? And now they are demanding he talk?? Hmmmmmm. I wonder why? ;-)

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:44:01 AM EST
    Posted by DonS February 15, 2006 05:47 AM Seriously, You have a good point. Truth be told, I don't really wish these people dead. It's bad for the karma. It just wouldn't bother me that much if they did.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:47:00 AM EST
    Scott McClellan is a tasteless joke.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:50:00 AM EST
    Doesn't it make you sick, Wile. The once great democratic party, reduced to ghoulishly and feverishly anticipating the misfortune of this poor guy, just so they can twist the accident for political gain. If it doesn't make us sick, we all should have our heads examined. Sure, Variable, we could just ask you seeing you already have read our minds and passed judgement. Anyways, this admin is so absolutely bizarre that I never know if they are up to something, or just that out of touch with what is acceptable behavior, or even just out of touch with reality. What I mean is: 8 month's ago, right up to Katrina, I could never even picture anyone from the white house, or even the GOP not backing each other 100%. Never. Now, hanging each other out to dry???? Are they losing control, like seriously, or is some master whitewashing going on? In any event, this has seemed not to be kosher right from the start, but I am now wondering if this guy isn't already dead, DOA that night, as it were. It just seems to be way to weird. (Then again, is it lack of sleep affecting my thinking, LOL?)

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:50:48 AM EST
    Don S wrote:
    I have the decency to not to wish someone's death to worsen their fortunes. I wish I could say the same of them, say the Ann Coulter/Rush Limbaugh brigade.
    Excellent point. Where is the same "conservative outrage" over the words of hate spewed by those two vile human beings? (Especialy Coulter who has called for the death of many, many people). Just another example of the blatant hypocrisy that the neo-cons spew on a regular basis. And when you really think about it, this could turn into a grand philosophical debate here where one asks the question: why would it be wrong to wish for the death of Cheney's gunshot victim simply for the political gain, while it is OK that others wish for the death of America's enemies in a war that is purely for political gain? And before you ask, I'm against killing for any reason.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#19)
    by mpower1952 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:04:39 AM EST
    I wonder how many people around here are secretly in their hearts hoping this guy dies. Notice that Wile and Variable did not say they actually heard anyone say they hoped Mr. Whittington would die. They just projected their own thoughts, "If this guy dies, we're screwed" onto the dems. The reason why their thinking is wrong is because unlike repugs, dems actually have hearts and put the well-being of people before political gain.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#20)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:36:35 AM EST
    Officials there said that they were monitoring the case and Carlos Valdez, the district attorney in Kleberg County, said a fatality would require a new report from the local sheriff and, most likely, a grand jury investigation. Is this standard practice in Kleberg County? Do all hunting accidents result in a grand jury investigation?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:39:56 AM EST
    This is not a prediction, but an observation: it would be strange but not impossible that the scandal to hurt this Administration the most could be the one that has nothing directly to do with how they've carried out their executive responsibilities. Because it is not about their governing, it is more approachable by the MSM who'd rather not challenge that, and because it is so sensational, people who don't have an interest in prior more relevent stories can really get into this one. Fortunately for the VP, there's no missing white girl involved (yet).

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#22)
    by desertswine on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:48:29 AM EST
    It's interesting that the estimate of the number of shot embedded in Whittington keeps going up: from 40 to 50 to less than 100, now it's less than 150 to 200.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:51:40 AM EST
    Jim, where has anyone said anything about Whittington having "a bad ticker"? Cheney has heart problems, but Whittington's heart attack was (as far as we can know, given the secrecy and disinformation) caused by a birdshot pellet, not some preexisting heart disease.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#24)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:54:55 AM EST
    PPJ: A seventy eight year old with a bad ticker???? And his wife concerned about another woman? Jim, perhaps you forgot that the "ticker" was okay until it got some lead in it as a result of a gunshot delivered under still-unexplained circumstances by the vice president of the United States. Since there are several conflicting versions about what took place, and because the local authorities were inexplicably denied access to the shooter for fifteen hours, someone is lying. Proper police procedure is to separate the participants/witnesses and get their stories immediately before they have a chance to iron out any uncomfortable details, such as the amount of drinking that may have been taking place. If Bill Clinton lying about a blow job was impeachable, is lying about shooting a man impeachable?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#25)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:05:21 AM EST
    If Bill Clinton lying about a blow job was impeachable, is lying about shooting a man impeachable? If he does it while under oath, yes, it is. If he does it while not under oath, then no, it's not; it's just politics as usual.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:15:39 AM EST
    A seventy eight year old with a bad ticker???? And his wife concerned about another woman? Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned Now, we'll have to prepare for some Congreve-bashing, no doubt.......... And I find it amusing that you make a remark about Molly's age when you have no empirical evidence as to what it is, and you've shown many times here that your own seniority hasn't kept you from displaying lapses in logic, judgement, and ignorance of the facts at hand. As it happens, I have a better idea of Molly's age than you do, but I will point out that she could be your mothers' age for all you know. Of course, if you're a volunteer for the NSA, and you've been fed info on us posters so that you can use them as points of attack "she's just a wet-nosed brat, according to her file. I'll teach her not to bad-mouth her elders." that would explain a lot.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:23:58 AM EST
    Mpower1952 writes:
    Notice that Wile and Variable did not say they actually heard anyone say they hoped Mr. Whittington would die.
    Ask and you shall receive.
    Posted by Aaron February 14, 2006 11:33 AM Birdshot triggers 'minor' heart attack in wounded Cheney companion CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas (CNN) -- The man shot and wounded by Vice President Dick Cheney has suffered a "minor heart attack" after a piece of birdshot migrated and became lodged in his heart, a hospital spokesman said Tuesday. (Posted 1:23 p.m.) NEWSFLASH; Dick Cheney indicted for murder Thanks for answering my prayers God.
    Let's break the above down. Aaron imagines Cheney has been indicted for murder. For this to be true. Mr. Whittingon has to be dead. Now I don't think Aaron really wants Mr. Whittington dead. I just think he hates Cheney, and that hatred makes him very, very un-thoughted. From the same thread (see link) we have this from Johnny at 8:11PM:
    If the lawyer dies, it better be soon or the people looking to crucify cheney for this will be SOL.
    Now Johnny says he has no "deathwish," just a comment. But why make it? Let's look at this. Johnny by his many comments have proven time and again that he intensely dislikes Cheney. So his SOL description about the people looking to crucify Cheney IF Whittington does is obviously a comment of disappointment. Again, I don't think Johnny wants anyone dead, I just think his hatred also makes him very, very un-thoughted Hope this helps you.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#28)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:26:42 AM EST
    RR: If Bill Clinton lying about a blow job was impeachable, is lying about shooting a man impeachable? If he does it while under oath, yes, it is. If he does it while not under oath, then no, it's not; it's just politics as usual. Is that why the president and the vice president and everyone in their administration (Rice, Gonzales, etc.) refuse to swear that what they are about to say before Congress is true? These guys get to give ALL their testimony about issues of national importance without even raising their right hands, but if a guy tells a lie about something that is no business of anyone except the terminally perverted, it's impeachable? Give me your best guess why these guys won't swear to tell the truth about their job performance in the same way Bill Clinton was required to about something that was none of our business.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:36:28 AM EST
    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:44:09 AM EST
    Do all hunting accidents result in a grand jury investigation?
    I would hope so, otherwise if you wanted to murder someone all you would have to do is convince them to go hunting with you.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#31)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:52:28 AM EST
    Is that why the president and the vice president and everyone in their administration (Rice, Gonzales, etc.) refuse to swear that what they are about to say before Congress is true? Most likely, yes. Although I'm not sure that lying to Congress is quite the same as lying to a grand jury or during a deposition for an ongoing legal proceedings. Given how often Congress as a body lies to us (i.e., every time they tell us how much a new spending program will cost), I doubt it. These guys get to give ALL their testimony about issues of national importance without even raising their right hands, but if a guy tells a lie about something that is no business of anyone except the terminally perverted, it's impeachable? If he does it after having raised his right hand and swearing to the tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, AND if the House of Representatives chooses to consider that act of perjury an impeachable offense, then yes, it is impeachable. Give me your best guess why these guys won't swear to tell the truth about their job performance in the same way Bill Clinton was required to about something that was none of our business. My best guess would be that they have already seen their job performance politicized beyond all reason and, because any two people, even two reasonable people, can differ on what constitutes good performance, they are unwilling to make statements about their performance under oath for fear that such statements will simply become another avenue for political games. But has anyone actually asked them to raise their right hand before such testimony? If so, when? Have they refused such a request? If so, when? As for Clinton: He made the mistake of getting himself involved in a sexual harassment suit with one woman and then in an affair with another woman who, it appeared, he then rewarded with a job promotion. I agree fully that it wasn't any of "my" business, or "our" business if you define "us" as the entire nation's. But was it the business of the lawyer's hired by Ms. Jones to prosecute her case? Yeah, it probably was, since she was accusing a former employer of sexual harassment and retribution after her refusal to acquiesce to his desires. Had it been anyone other than Bill Clinton, would you still believe the lawyer's representing a women alleging sexual harassment by a former employer who, according to information they had, was involved with another subordinate and had rewarded her with a promotion should have foregone asking any questions about that relationship? Does a pattern of sexual harassment not have any place in a case alleging such? All of which, of course, misses the point that had Clinton not lied about it under oath, he never would have been impeached, and it's unlikely that anyone would have cared about it. But he did lie, and, unfortunately, that lie got turned into a reason to impeach by the only people authorized to decide what is an impeachable offense. I do find it interesting that you are concerned with whether lying about sex is suitable grounds for impeachment. The standard line here has always been that Clinton was impeached for the sexual act itself. I suppose this willingness to admit the truth about the case should be considered progress. Kdog, It was a purely procedural question. Given that the victim here is not dead, and has presumeably spoken to investigators and told them that this was not a case of Cheney having intentionally shot him, I was wondering whether a grandy jury investigation is truly warranted. County or state law may require it regardless if he dies, but I have no idea whether that is the case.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:53:08 AM EST
    from Gen. JC Christian
    28 gauge shotgun shells loaded with 3/4 oz of #7-1/2 shot. That particular load carries approximately 262 BBs. The doctor caring for the wounded man said that he removed about 200 BBs. That means about 4/5ths of the shot in the load struck the man in an area no larger than about 18 inches in diameter.
    pretty much blows that whole '30 yards away' thing to hell. Liars.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:58:52 AM EST
    Apparently the wounds may be a lot more serious than previously disclosed. This article http://www.slate.com/id/2136206/nav/tap1/, states that there is some information floating around that there are pellets in his larnyx and in his liver. Seems like he was more than just "peppered" and "knocked silly".

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:18:03 AM EST
    Litesq's theory is the most plausible analysis out there. Cheney had the gun on his shoulder and it went off with Whittington walking 5 yards behind. Drunk, most likely, but at this point a McGuffin. JF's medical analysis also lends credence to litesq's theory as to what really happened. All's well that ends well.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#35)
    by Slado on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:36:20 AM EST
    Cheney will discuss incident on Fox tonight 6pm Brit Hume...my favorite show. Check it out and let the conspiracy theories grow.

    Why isn't Willeford listed as an eyewitness on the incident report? She was right there with Cheney, not seated in car watching from a distance.
    Well, assuming the story they're peddling is truthful, she was hunting, she wasn't a spectator. That means when the covey flushed she had her eye to the gun sight and on her birds just like Cheney did. Additionally, when two hunters are on the same covey, the right-hand hunter turns/takes all the game that goes right and the left-hand hunter turns/takes the game that goes left. The most plausable explanation is that she was focusing on her birds and facing/shooting in the complete opposite direction from Cheney.
    Were they drinking while they were hunting? The report says no, but it was written before Cheney or Whittington were interviewed, so either the Secret Service or Armstrong must have been the source of the information. Was alcohol consumed at lunch?
    Google had an article yesterday, that, of course, is buried today, which said that Armstrong said that they had some kind of sandwiches, jimcama (or something like that, whatever that is) and Dr. Pepper for lunch.
    How angry is Lynne Cheney? Her husband goes off hunting with a single guy and two women for the weekend. Do you think she knew who his hunting partners would be?
    The article also said that during the morning there were a bunch of folks hunting together, and after lunch they split up into two smaller groups. All that said, to paraphrase Desi Arnaz, "Cheney, you got some splainin' to do."

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#37)
    by Punchy on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:04:20 AM EST
    This "blaming the victim" thing just cracks me up. First he's blamed for walking BEHIND the shooter. I guess I'm supposed to believe it's safer to walk towards him and his pointed rifle. Next, he's blamed for not announcing the fact that he's behind everyone else. I'm supposed to believe this is what all hunters do--make loud noises while hunting easily-spooked animals. Lastly, his BAL and Cheney's are being kept a close secret, so as to not screw up this "victim" theme. Once it becomes clear that he'd been drinking, I'd like to see the Sheriff dept. defend its actions.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peaches on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:05:05 AM EST
    The most plausable explanation is that she was focusing on her birds and facing/shooting in the complete opposite direction from Cheney.
    Sarc? Cmon, you can't be serious. You telling me that, even if this is true, she doesn't hear Cheney shoot, then a scream and probably an "oh @#$!" from the mouth of the Veep. she still doesn't turn to see the old lawyer with a chest full of pellets and so isn't a viable witness to whether their was negligence, drinking or whatever else involved?

    No, Peaches, I'm saying if she was hunting, she wasn't an eyewitness to the actual shooting, which, in the main, is what the incident report is about.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#40)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:18:08 AM EST
    CAVUTO: This is a Fox News alert. The lawyer accidentally hit by Vice President Dick Cheney suffering a mild heart attack this morning. Doctors say he's doing just fine and could be released in a week. Meanwhile, the White House press corps again beating a dead horse as it tries to find out why they were not told right away about the Vice President's hunting accident. Not one person bothering to ask, in the meantime, how Dick Cheney's feeling about all this.
    Ah, the party of sensitivity! Yes, I'm sure faux news will ask the tough questions. (Which is hard to do when their lips are so close to his nether cheeks;-) Did someone mention alcohol?
    Armstrong also told NBC News that she does not believe alcohol was involved in the accident. She says she believes no one that day was drinking, although she says there may have been beer available during a picnic lunch that preceded the incident. "There may be a beer or two in there," she said, "but remember not everyone in the party was shooting."


    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#41)
    by Peaches on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:19:22 AM EST
    Sorry Sarc, Won't fly. If she was anywhere near, she is a witness to the incident. That is what an incident report is about.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#42)
    by KD on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:20:13 AM EST
    The daughter made a strange comment: "His daughter said after he was shot, the 78-year-old Republican supporter was unsure whether he was being taken to the hospital or the morgue." Sounds like the Mr. Whittington thought he was going to die or thought that they were going to kill him.

    If you say so Peaches.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#44)
    by roy on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:25:54 AM EST
    Sailor, If 200 pellets hit Whittington I'll write my appropriate government folks and ask them to convene a grand jury. I've been playing with numbers and 200 pellets makes 30 yards so unlikely that it rises to probable cause. But the General seems like the sort who might misread data. He doesn't cite a source for the 200 number. I've only seen "200" as in "6 to 200". I left a comment with the General asking for a source. If I get a good one, I'll pass it along and start on my letter.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:32:25 AM EST
    Were it that a grand jury investigation would convene to investigate Ted Kennedy leaving his date to drown in a car! No THAT IS criminal. A hunting accident is just that---an accident. I was dove hunting in Yuma, AZ last September and was peppered twice in an hour by a guy hunting 100 yards away. It was a little scary having bird shot hit me (in the head no less), but I did not have to go to the hospital and I did not even call the police. It was not a big deal. Cheney obviously hit this lawyer a lot closer and will much more force and damage, but it is AN ACCIDENT!! I am stunned at how much speculation there is: was he drinking and etc. There is NO evidence that he was drinking, so it seems like a lot of folks that simply hate all things Republican are grasping at straws, especially when they reference grand juries and criminal charges and all this other vitriole. (BTW, I NEVER drink alcohol when I hunt and I do not hunt or shoot with other people that drink around shotguns--guns and beer don't mix).

    Hey, found the article:
    The party of 11 hunters set out in two trucks Saturday morning, driving around the mesquite-dotted property and shooting quail until about 12:30 p.m., said Anne Armstrong, co-owner of the ranch. Then they broke for a lunch of antelope, jicama salad and camp bread, washed down with Dr. Pepper. After lunch, the group split up. Cheney, Whittington and Pamela Pitzer Willeford, U.S. ambassador to Switzerland, went with two of Armstrong's daughters and pursued quail for several more hours.
    Armstrong's daughters were with the group now? I can't keep up with this story...

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#47)
    by Peaches on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:47:45 AM EST
    BTW, I NEVER drink alcohol when I hunt and I do not hunt or shoot with other people that drink around shotguns--guns and beer don't mix
    So, if Cheney was drinking, would this change your opinion on the nature of this accident. The only reason there has been all this speculation is because of the secrecy coming from the VP office. Although I initially found the reporting of this incident to be very humorous, I was ready to leave as just an accident. However, as time has gone on without any word from Cheney, well.. there are some questions that need answering.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:58:13 AM EST
    peaches wrote:
    So, if Cheney was drinking,
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:07:52 AM EST
    So, if Cheney was drinking, would this change your opinion on the nature of this accident. The only reason there has been all this speculation is because of the secrecy coming from the VP office. Although I initially found the reporting of this incident to be very humorous, I was ready to leave as just an accident. However, as time has gone on without any word from Cheney, well.. there are some questions that need answering Why does the VP not commenting suggest to you that he was drinking? Why does the VP not commenting about this incident suggest to you that he was smoking meth or shooting at passing cars? IOW, the fact that Cheney is not talking about this should not suggest to you (or anyone else) that this is anything other than an accident at this point. I have not heard anything (as an experienced California bird hunter) that peaks my interest. People are shot (and killed) in hunting accidents every year. Cycling great Greg LeMond was shot in a similar incident by his brother-in-law in California in 1987 and almost bled to death. Was this criminal? NO! It was an ACCIDENT--just as in the case of the VP. As for secrecy, I do not think Cheney is being secretive. He spoke with law enforcement in Texas. He did not run and hide when this took place--he rendered aid and got his FRIEND (the victim) to a hospital. Just because he did not call a Rose Garden press conference to spill his guts to the vultures (the press that HATES him)does not mean he is being 'secretive'. It also does not suggest a criminal act occured. A non-criminal act (i.e. an accident) does not require disclosure, even when you are the Vice-President of the United States. The VP was obviously embarassed, but you are continuing to speculate on alcohol--when there is no evidence that they were drinking anything other than Dr. Pepper.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#50)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:09:27 AM EST
    Once again Sailor's Law goes into effect: wrongwingers' desperation is the square of the number of posts with 'clinton did it' or 'teddy did it.'

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:13:23 AM EST
    PPJ - Did you write that yourself? Nuts and cuts happy holidays? Very original, or was it on Rush's show today?????

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:16:22 AM EST
    A non-criminal act (i.e. an accident) does not require disclosure, even when you are the Vice-President of the United States.
    Wrong! If you shoot somebody you HAVE to report it, the Dr has to report it, the hospital has to report it. A police report is made and generally sunshine laws allow reporters access.
    The VP was obviously embarassed, but you are continuing to speculate on alcohol
    Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. They served beer at lunch, so it is a reasonable question, especially since the SS turned back the cops wanting to interview cheney the before. Why else refuse to be questioned right after shooting someone unless you needed time to sober up?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:18:30 AM EST
    What would the speculation be if this were an ordinary Joe who waited 24 hours? Let's ask the Patrick the cop. P, someone comes in 24 hours after a shooting accident do you say "Darn, poor guy, let me get you some prozac", or do you say "Why did you wait, was there drinking involved?" My guess is that Patrick and most cops would offer the consolation to the poor guy and let him know that they are sorry he had to deal with this for so long before reporting it.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:18:48 AM EST
    I am not desperate, I am simply disgusted by the (seemingly) endless hypocrisy of the left. You (apparently) see a criminal act in a hunting accident, while at the same time you (apparently) excuse a married man who left his 'date' to die in a submerged car (all the while driving on a suspended license). Dick called for an ambulance---Ted walked PAST the fire station on his way home while Mary Jo was drowning in a marsh.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:33:53 AM EST
    Ted walked PAST the fire station on his way home while Mary Jo was drowning in a marsh. Disgraceful. There. Satisfied?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:38:37 AM EST
    Sailor wrote: Wrong! If you shoot somebody you HAVE to report it, the Dr has to report it, the hospital has to report it. A police report is made and generally sunshine laws allow reporters access. What Texas law requires calling a local law enforcement agency to report a hunting accident? P.O.S.T trained and sworn law enforcement officials were accompanying the hunting party. With respect to disclosure, I am referring to the press. The White House press corps (and especially David Gregory) seem to be incredibly miffed that THEY were not immediately notified of this accident. Sailor also wrote: Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. They served beer at lunch, so it is a reasonable question, especially since the SS turned back the cops wanting to interview cheney the before. Why else refuse to be questioned right after shooting someone unless you needed time to sober up?" I have seen the reference to Dr. Pepper being served, but only endless speculation on alcohol being served. I might have missed it, but I have only heard here that the sheriff was denied access to Cheney. It is not the job of the Secret Service to interfere---this is how Jenna Bush got a ticket for underage drinking. The Secret Service did not stop the authorities from citing her and I have not seen anything to suggest that they interferred here to protect the VP. Again, I hunt in Arizona and California 12-15 times a year and me and my hunting friends with Quails Unlimited DO NOT drink before or during a hunt...we don't break out any beer until the end of the day. Most hunters I know would not drink alcohol during lunch when afternoon hunting was scheduled.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#57)
    by roger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:40:08 AM EST
    SoCal- I must have missed the bulletin, are you saying that Kennedy MADE Cheney shoot this man? Besides almost 40 years time difference, the relation of these two events is...?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:41:34 AM EST
    But, you know, it happened in 1969. He pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident. The lives of all involved were forever altered. I'm sure it was a painful event for you, too. But it's time to put the pieces back together and move on.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:45:19 AM EST
    Punisher wrote: Disgraceful. There. Satisfied? ...with reference to my "Ted walked PAST the fire station on his way home while Mary Jo was drowning in a marsh." I would have been satisfied if Ted Kennedy were charged with manslaughter for reckless driving and abandoning a live human in a submerged car. His behavior (especially AFTER the accident) was far beyond disgraceful--it was absolutely CRIMINAL. But hey, he is a Kennedy and got away with a crime like so many other Kennedys (and especially his father).

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:56:49 AM EST
    Democrats talk about the events of the Weekend of February 11/12, 2006. Republicans talk about the events of Labor Day Weekend 1969. You make the call. Remember when Kerry went hunting in Ohio during the '04 Campaign? How many guys did he shoot in the face? That's what I thought.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:57:53 AM EST
    I would have been satisfied if Ted Kennedy were charged with manslaughter... So your anger should be directed at the prosecutor on that case. Your statement that liberals excuse his behavior is a fantasy, and an opportunity to move this thread OT which should be declined.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:05:08 PM EST
    Roger wrote: "SoCal- I must have missed the bulletin, are you saying that Kennedy MADE Cheney shoot this man? Besides almost 40 years time difference, the relation of these two events is...?" Roger, there is NO relationship between the two, the point was the hypocrisy of the left (as you will see if you look at little further back in today's posts). The left (and specifically those liberals who hate all things Republican on the face of it) that will look for blood in the water on someone like Cheney's hunting accident, but do not think twice to turn a blind eye to one of their own whose criminal actions led to the death of another person. Why are you excusing the criminal act of Mr. Kennedy just because time has passed? Would you call for his indictment then (or now) for voluntary manslaughter as vociferously as you (and others) are calling for further investigation of a hunting accident involving a Republican. The easy test is this: I (as a Republican) would call for indictment of Mr. Kennedy if he were a Republican and given my experience as a bird hunter, I would not give two thoughts to Mr. Cheney's hunting accident were he to be a Democrat. Sadly, the hatred of the left is so great that they could not say the same thing if the shoe were on the other foot.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:12:26 PM EST
    I would not give two thoughts to Mr. Cheney's hunting accident were he to be a Democrat. Wouldn't you want to know the facts first?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#64)
    by roger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:17:16 PM EST
    SoCal- Kennedy pled to a crime. He will never be president. Before the accident (or whatever) he was heir apparent. When the car went off the bridge, Kennedy was in it and could have died himself. Kennedy was punished, maybe enough, maybe not. You say that you are a hunter. Do you think that it's ok to shoot 180 degrees behind you? When you flush birds, do they fly away from behind you? Do you think that Cheney was physically in danger when he pulled the trigger? Have you ever heard lefties EXCUSE Teddy, or just argue that he was punished enough? Do you think that a man can die from gunshot wounds without there being an investigation? Did Teddy, or his staff, crack jokes about Mary Jo?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:25:20 PM EST
    ful.Punisher wrote: "So your anger should be directed at the prosecutor on that case. Your statement that liberals excuse his behavior is a fantasy". My frustration and my dislike of Ted Kennedy should be directed at the criminal, not at a district attorney who was in the pocket of the Kennedy's. You could not get a Kennedya indicted for anything in Massachusetts then (and probably now). As for fantasy, I have not heard you or any other liberal suggest that Ted Kennedy should have been charged with manslaughter or even that his actions were criminal. By omission you absolutely DO excuse his behavior. You always say things like "he made a mistake" or "his behavior was disgraceful". DISGRACEFUL? A MISTAKE? The man drove off a bridge, left a female companion in the car, walked past a fire station on the way home (but did NOT pull the box alarm), did NOT call the police, instead he called his attorney and Mary Jo was found with her head in an air pocket in the floor boards of the upside down car. If you had heard a story like this about an ordinary person on a local newscast or something like "20/20 "---Joe Smith, a local businessman having an extramarital affair, flips his car in the drink and leaves his date for dead would you look at the TV and say "he made a mistake" or "that is disgraceful". You KNOW you would say things like he belongs in jail or he should be charged, etc. But instead, you say words like 'disgraceful'. How sad and disgraceful.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:27:00 PM EST
    ah...I think we know the facts. The man was hunting. A friend of his goes out to get a downed bird and while coming back in with the sun to his back gets shot by a man swinging on another bird in the air. What am I missing?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:41:29 PM EST
    Kennedy pled to a crime. He will never be president. Before the accident (or whatever) he was heir apparent. When the car went off the bridge, Kennedy was in it and could have died himself. Kennedy was punished, maybe enough, maybe not. HOW WAS HE PUNISHED? BY NOT BEING PRESIDENT? HOW ABOUT 5-10? You say that you are a hunter. Do you think that it's ok to shoot 180 degrees behind you? I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT "180 DEGREES". When I hunt with others we shot to our left or right in wedges pre-determined to be safe. I haven't heard or seen anything about 180 degrees. For the sake of the argument, let's say he did shot behind him during bird shooting. Is this criminal or a hunting accident. Hunting accidents occur when hunters do not follow safety guidelines. Mr. Cheney certainly did not follow hunter safety guidelines. He was wrong. When you flush birds, do they fly away from behind you? SOMETIMES. Pheasant and quail sit on the deck. It is not uncommon to walk past a bird (especially if you are not hunting with a good bird dog) only to have it flush behind you after you have passed, especially if you do not have a dog or have an inexperienced dog or a dog with a long nose (or wind affecting scent, etc). Pheasant and quail also will fly in every direction when they are flushed--to you, away from you, etc. Do you think that Cheney was physically in danger when he pulled the trigger? No--of course not. What is your point?He was hunting, not defending his home from a burglar. Have you ever heard lefties EXCUSE Teddy, or just argue that he was punished enough? YES---today---you above---read your own words and that of "Punisher". You don't what he did was criminal. You say he didn't get to be president. What is that? Do you think that a man can die from gunshot wounds without there being an investigation? No, but a man did not and has not died here. Did Teddy, or his staff, crack jokes about Mary Jo? I don't know, probably not, I was 5 in 1969, so I don't remember. Mary Jo was a criminal victim. Dick's hunting buddy is a friend of his and the man is alive. I haven't heard of any outright jokes about the victim here. There has been some uneasy banter as Whittington recovers, but Arreona Huffington has a Dick Cheney shooting GAME online! Is that appropriate? Most of the jokes are coming from Leno and Letterman against Cheney and YES they have joked about Mary Jo in years past.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:41:54 PM EST
    What am I missing? Well, since Cheney hasn't even spoken about the event yet, I don't know. Neither do you.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:48:01 PM EST
    Hey Punchy: regarding "he's blamed for not announcing the fact that he's behind everyone else. I'm supposed to believe this is what all hunters do--make loud noises while hunting easily-spooked animals." When you hunt deer and turkey you sit for long hours stock still. DEER HUNTING=NOISE BAD When you hunt upland game (Quail, Pheasant), noise is good. Quail and pheasant hide quietly on the ground in brush. When you hunt them you have to walk (a lot) through fields and brush to find them (usually with a dog who finds them and points them out). With deer you want silence because you want the deer to come to you. When you hunt quail you have to go to the birds, so noise is not a factor--so yes, you announce your presence and your intentions throughout a hunt--this is why you wear blaze orange and why it would be important to tell your hunting partner where you are and what you are doing VERBALLY. (It is a great way to avoid getting shot).

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#70)
    by KD on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:51:17 PM EST
    If Laura Bush gets kill her ex-boyfriend in a car crash with no questions asked, why shouldn't Dick Cheney get to shoot Whittington in the heart with birdshot with no questions asked!?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:52:22 PM EST
    Cheney Breaks Silence on Hunting Accident AP - 25 minutes ago
    Vice President Dick Cheney on Wednesday accepted full blame for shooting a fellow hunter


    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:53:19 PM EST
    Punchy: I am hunting Chukar in Los Angeles in March--want to go?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#73)
    by Peaches on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:55:48 PM EST
    Hey Soc, Put a sock in it! We know. Liberals bad. Kennedy bad man from bad family. Republicans good. Do no wrong! Watch out, liberals out to get them! There, I said in 21 words what you have been trying to say in over 10,000.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    Laura Bush was 17 years old (by two days) when she ran a stop sign. Alcohol was not involved. She was not from a politically-connected family and no criminal charges were filed or warranted. There is no comparison to be made between then-Laura Welch's accident and Ted Kennedy's criminal actions. (Nice try)

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Hey Peaches: You used 29 words-not 21 (so much for simple math). Liberals bad--Kennedy VERY bad man, but Democrats okay. Republicans okay as well (in general). Republicans AND Democrats do wrong (often they don't do anything--believe me I worked in Congress for a year--nothing gets done there ever).

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#76)
    by roger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Teddy pled to reckless driving, that is a crime where I come from. It is a crime of negligence, basically. How about shooting when you dont know what's in your path? Sounds negligent to me. Criminal? I dont know, thatt's why we have cops and prosecutors.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    Hey Charlie: Cheney is under NO obligation to notify the press EVER.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:25:13 PM EST
    Does anyone else think that the reason Cheney has not come forward to give a public interview is on advice from his personal (read criminal) attorney? If he was drunk and shot someone while hunting that is a crime -no matter what.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#79)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:26:12 PM EST
    There is no comparison to be made between then-Laura Welch's accident and Ted Kennedy's criminal actions.
    Yeah, geez - Laura got in a wreck and killed her boyfriend, Teddy got in a wreck and killed his girlfriend. Apples and oranges!

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#80)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:31:39 PM EST
    Teddy pled to reckless driving Actually, according to his statement at the time, Which was issued 7 days after the event, Teddy pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, which isn't even taking responsibility for what happened. This morning I entered a plea of guilty to the charge of leaving the scene of an accident. But this isn't about Teddy, it's about Cheney, who, as of today, is running 3 days ahead of Teddy for making any statement at all. Which does not, of course, excuse what has happened, but anyone who is willing to characterize Chappaquiddick as an "accident" should be willing to do the same with regard to Cheney's idiocy. Regardless of what Teddy said then or says now, his known history refutes his assertion that he had not been drinking, his known history of womanizing refutes his assertion that he was in no way involved with Kopechne, and the fact that he lived there and knew the roads refutes any assertion that his having ended up in the pond was anything other than gross negligence. You want to let Teddy off? Fine. You want to hang Cheney? Fine. But don't try to pretend you're being consistent. So far, only one of them has killed anyone (that we know of).

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:35:20 PM EST
    Jlvngstn asks - Did you write that or hear it from Limbaugh... Neither. I have heard it all my life, so far back in antiquity that I don't know who, but probably the first time was from an uncle who was fond of pithy statements. The first time I heard it on TV, or any other public medium was on Monday Night Football from Dandy Don Meredith broadcasting color with Howard C. It was usually said right before he started singing, "Turn out the lights, the party's over...." signifying that the winner was known to any reasonable person and the other team had no chance in the time remaining. When the time was 40 minutes or so I'd guess that the networks didn't like it too well. Maybe that's why he was removed from the show. No charge for the education. SoCalSux - Nice try and accurately stated, but it is hopeless to try and explain quail hunting to someone who has never done it. How about we organize a Snipe hunt for these folks? You know, kinda give'em an easy look at the joys of hunting. Kd writes:
    "His daughter said after he was shot, the 78-year-old Republican supporter was unsure whether he was being taken to the hospital or the morgue." Sounds like the Mr. Whittington thought he was going to die or thought that they were going to kill him.
    I say the guy has a real sense of humor, but that won't fit in with your paranoia and conspiracy theories. After we all know that this was done to demonstrate to Libby what could happen to him. BTW - Have you seen the pictures of the second shooter? The one on the grassy knoll?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:42:45 PM EST
    But it was so original PPJ, I mean we are all holding our breath waiting for more! Please give us more! Please give us more! Please give us more! Please give us more! Please give us more!

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:55:04 PM EST
    Well said JustPaul!

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:56:40 PM EST
    have any others Jim, like a stitch in time saves lots of wine? Really, more words of wisdom! Really, more words of wisdom! Really, more words of wisdom! Really, more words of wisdom! Really, more words of wisdom!

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#85)
    by rMatey on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:57:09 PM EST
    I wonder if steel shot is healthier for you, rather than lead. I know if the pheasant eat the lead shot they get poisoned.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#86)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:58:24 PM EST
    How about we organize a Snipe hunt for these folks?
    bag and a flashlight method?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:59:35 PM EST
    Charlie: there is NO law that requires Dick Cheney to speak with or notify the press, especially when it involves a private function and not an official function of his office. We have Freedom of the Press, not a requirement to speak with the press. There is a difference and I know of no constitutional requirement or federal law that would require the VP or the President to speak with the press or even notify the press of (for example) a hunting accident. Normally they would want to get ahead of the curve on something like this, but they do not HAVE to.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:00:25 PM EST
    We should organize a cow-tipping trip instead.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:11:31 PM EST
    Posted by SoCalSux February 15, 2006 03:00 PM We should organize a cow-tipping trip instead.
    Better yet, why don't all you neo-cons get together and arrange a money donation to Talk Left for all the bandwidth you are using here?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#90)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:14:15 PM EST
    I wonder if steel shot is healthier for you, rather than lead. I know if the pheasant eat the lead shot they get poisoned. Really sucks when the hunter misses one of the steel shot and you bite down on it thinking you are only going to bite into a nice tasty piece of duck.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:25:29 PM EST
    Jlvngstn - Glad you liked it. Most of the others I learned from Dan Rather. You remmeber him, don't you? I think his best was, "Speak loudly and carry a phony stick." Or was it... "Where did all those ffing bloggers come from?" SoCalSux - That'd work. How about a cow chip throwing contest? Don't remind me to tell'em, "No finger licking allowed." rMatey - Where do you think the saying, "He died of lead posioning came from?" ;-) Johnny - No flashlight. We'll spot you in the proper place to bag'em as we drive'em to you. Lab - Been there and done that. You?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#92)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:32:26 PM EST
    PPJ: You belong in a Budweiser commercial, Real Men of Genius. How about, "close only counts in encounters and hand grenades" Please, please PPJ: More sagacious comments! More sagacious comments! More sagacious comments! More sagacious comments! More sagacious comments!

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:38:17 PM EST
    Normally they would want to get ahead of the curve on something like this, but they do not HAVE to.
    And how's that approach workin' out for them?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:40:21 PM EST
    It's working out like crap given the liberal bias of the media that hates everything to the right of Mao. (but it is NOT a legal requirement).

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:41:53 PM EST
    You want to let Teddy off? Fine. You want to hang Cheney? Fine. But don't try to pretend you're being consistent. So far, only one of them has killed anyone (that we know of).
    Nice try. Cheney's run up quite an unpaid tab in Iraq he's tryin' to skate on.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:42:32 PM EST
    One of my favorite Christmas memories is eating a roasted Canada goose that I had shot the day before, but shot in the bird was and is a little downside of the meal.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#98)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:07:04 PM EST
    cheney did not only not notify the press, he didn't notify the cops and refused to be interviewed by them. That's a felony. BTW, you do know that cheney admitted to drinking before the 'incident?' And Sailor's Law is well in effect. clinton didn't shoot this man, kennedy didn't shoot this man, cheney did. charliedontsurf1, please, PLEASE moderate your personal attacks. I, for one, don't want to lose you again. You make great points, but your personal attacks distract from them.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:14:47 PM EST
    Charlie: Did Dick Cheney rape your dog or something?! What on earth did the man do to you? Really, suggesting that you look forward to seeing his charred corpse alongside his wife's body! Are you seriously that angry? And what in the wide world of sports are you talking about with the prisons? Have you been to the prisons lately? They are NOT "filled with minors who were tried as adults" for real crimes. Please cite a fact instead of relying on emotions (like most liberals). If you are talking about a minor who murders someone with a gun who is tried as an adult that is not "an accident". And what is "Republicans wanna fry preschoolers for colorin' outside the lines" about. Republicans (including me do not "wanna fry" minors like then 17-year old Laura Welch for a car accident. Do you know of a 17- year old who was charged as an adult for vehicular manslaughter?

    One of my favorite Christmas memories is eating a roasted Canada goose that I had shot the day before,... I'm envious. That sounds like a great Christmas Dinner. I hope that you used a chestnut stuffing. Goose and chestnut stuffing go together like a horse and carriage.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#101)
    by swingvote on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:21:17 PM EST
    TL, This field and stream nonsense is totally outta control. Ya want me to start a forum on slide guitar technique? Unable to come up with even his usual nonsensical statements, Charliedontthink once again reverts to whining. How typical. Your dismissed Charlie.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:28:26 PM EST
    Wingnut morons will go kicking and screaming to the grave before they admit that money dosnt equal "speech" and then whine like little girls when the rich - beit Ted, O.J, or whoever, get away with things.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#103)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:33:30 PM EST
    justprolix - You got anything other than Clinton, Kerry, Gore, Kennedy did it too?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#104)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:40:47 PM EST
    It's working out like crap given the liberal bias of the media
    Ha, ha! charliedontsurf1, good points, thanks!

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#105)
    by roger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:11:33 PM EST
    Maybe a bit of common sense? What Teddy did (RD or LSOA, both criminal charges) and what Cheney did are both equally unimportant. Finally, a proposition from the right that I can agree with! And Jim, I've gotten a few quail, duck geese, and other furry animals in my day. You dont shoot a bird once it gets about 70-80 degrees from your front. People get hurt that way.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#106)
    by roger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:13:10 PM EST
    SoCal, Yes, I know a few 17 year olds tried, as adults, for vehicular homicide. Not unusual at all.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:25:48 PM EST
    SoCalSux - Can't you just see the Repubs running some of charliedontsurf1's comments as an example of the Left? You know, I'm not a Repub, basically Independent and I just wonder why he wants to put ammo in their guns.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:28:02 PM EST
    That's bound to happen when you lie to the American Public on a regular basis and go to war on false premises. Instant Karma's gonna get ya. [crass insult deleted, commenter warned.]

    Jim: You know, I'm not a Repub Are you still pretending not to be a Republican? Do you fancy people believe you, or is it just another of the things you like to say even though you know no one believes you?

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:47:38 PM EST
    Jesurgislac - I know it is difficult for you to understand. But it is possible to support the administration on the war and yet disagree on other items. So come, try. Jlvngstn - How about: It aint over until the Florida Democrats say it is over. or I regret that I have only one protest to give for my country. or Chad! Chad! Come back Chad! Now, no more free one's. You'll have to buy the book.

    You know, I'm not a Democrat, I'm basically an Independent and my main reasons for voting Democratic - and against Bush - are National Security. Well, National Security and Foreign Policy. Well, that and Domestic Policy, of course. And The Economy. The Economy and Education. And the Environment. And Human Rights. And Everything else. Face it, there's no earthly reason to vote for bush. There's no extraterrestrial reason to vote for him, either. Not if ya have a brain. Not if ya have a soul. He's weak in every area. If he's not weak, he's abysmal and fading fast. He is unquestionably the worst President in US History. Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce have joined Mike Torrez and Bill Buckner and are running through the cosmos shouting "I'm off the hook! I'm off the hook!" Ask a Red Sox Fan.

    Jim: it is possible to support the administration on the war and yet disagree on other items. Of course it is, Jim, and I know many honest, decent Republicans who do so. But since your entire output consists of support for anything the White House does, including torture, illegal imprisonment, and shooting hunting buddies, this plainly doesn't apply to you. You don't disagree with the Bush administration on anything, and have made that clear. So, again, why this perpetual claim that you're "not a Republican"? Do you seriously expect anyone to believe you?

    socalsux says "Charlie: Did Dick Cheney rape your dog or something?! What on earth did the man do to you? " I think stolen elections, using lies to start a war that has killed thousand, torture, stealing from the elderly and poor to make the rich richer, are pretty good reasons to hate Cheney. Cheney raping Charlie's dog is also possible, the man is pure evil.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 07:09:15 AM EST
    charliedontsurf1 writes:
    Face it, there's no earthly reason to vote for bush. There's no extraterrestrial reason to vote for him, either. Not if ya have a brain. Not if ya have a soul.
    charlie, do you have an argument that includes more than your personal opinions? And can you state that argument, or any argument, without using a personal attack? And can you link to anything that supports your views on any subject, or do you just want to make unsupported comments? Jesurgislac - I have criticized Bush on his Gay Right's position, no push for National Healthcare, inability to reform Social Security, although he tried, I would also like to see him push for tax reform and rationalization of our national drug police and have said so on this blog. See the archives if you don't believe. But without a strong national defense, all the other items are meaningless. I think you fail to understand that this is a clash of cultures. So, on the matter of the NSA, the WMD's, etc., yes I will support. I will also support on non-defense items that I feel will weaken us. The press/Internet screaming and crying about this item falls between these two. While I enjoy watching a "hissy fit" as well as anyone, I have to wonder what good it does. Consider. Just on this blog we have seen a peson who claims to be a MD call for the release of someone's medical records to the press. We have a well known lawyer call for the release of the victim's alcohol blood level. We have defense lawyers, in a matter that could have resulted in a death, grand jury, etc., demanding that Cheney be interviewed. We have had two comments that could easily be considered as wishing Mr. Whittington dead so as to cause Cheney big problems, although I commented on both that I thought they didn't really mean it. But there can be nothing said in defense of charliedontsurf1's comments about Cheney and his wife which were deleted as a "gross insult." Can you say that these actions are those of a "Liberal?"

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#114)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 07:35:42 AM EST
    Sailor: charliedontsurf1, please, PLEASE moderate your personal attacks. I, for one, don't want to lose you again. You make great points, but your personal attacks distract from them. Charlie, I have to agree with Sailor here. I know how you feel, but even though I've agree with you as I said here your input and points are to valuable to lose here. You have the ability to be very direct and cutting in showing the reptiles up for what they really are. Stick around though, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. It will insult them more if you refuse to do what the wacks expect. Personally, as I said the other day: I've acquired a taste for wingnuts. Especially when skewered and slowly roasted over a hot fire. ;-)

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 07:43:21 AM EST
    Edger calling for free speech of people he disagrees with. Congratulations on embracing the First Amendment....

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#116)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 08:01:19 AM EST
    Of course Jim. After all is said and done trools (drooling trools) always manage to hang themselves with the nonsense they spout, right? :-)

    But without a strong national defense, all the other items are meaningless. If strong national defense is important to you, you would hardly be so strongly supporting a President who is so weak on national defense. So, either you are lying when you claim a strong national defense is important to you, or you are lying when you claim not to be Republican. As I've never seen you criticize Bush's actions on anything - even something as unrelated to national defense as Cheney shooting a hunting buddy or US soldiers torturing prisoners - it's simply impossible for me to believe you're not a Republican.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#118)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 09:43:32 AM EST
    Why just this post we saw someone try and paint the entire left with one person's comment. Just curious, are you wearing clothes when you type that drivel PooperPooperJim?

    I think a strong national defense policy would begin by having a FBI agent check underneath PPJ's bed every night to make sure that there aren't any "America-hating leftists" lurking about.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 05:29:11 PM EST
    Jesurgislac - You made an accusation and I gave you a nice detailed response. You in turn claim that Bush is weak on national defense, with no evidence for your claim, and then accuse me of lying. Jlvngstn - Actually, at one time, there was a difference between the Left and Democrats. That this is no longer true is the problem. And I do regard the Left as Liberal, just as I do not regard the Far Right as Conservative. They are both on the same coin, just opposite sides. The Left will condemn you for saying you support Christians. The Far Right will condemn you for saying Gays have the right to get married. Check the archives. Actually, your comments are rather trollish. Personal attacks with no back up.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#121)
    by jimcee on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 07:54:09 PM EST
    Charliedontsurf1, I rarely respond to you but I can think of two reasons to have voted for George Bush: #1 Albert Gore, #2 John Kerry. To qoute some idiot I saw on the web somewhere.... Dismissed. PS: Be civil, Sailor is correct.

    Re: If Whittington Dies, A Grand Jury is Likely (none / 0) (#122)
    by Sailor on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 08:08:45 PM EST
    jimcee, you weren't civil with that comment, how can you ask someone else to be? And please don't take my name in vain again.