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Native Americans Exploited Again

By TChris, Section Social Justice
Posted on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 12:18:25 PM EST
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by TChris

Helen O'Donnell argues that a larger story underlying the Abramoff scandal has been overlooked:

Years after taking this country away from Native Americans and herding them onto reservations to live mostly in poverty and despair, it ought to bother us that we still think so little of them as human beings that further exploitation of American Indians is somehow "business as usual" in Washington without rising to meet the real challenges that still face our American Indian sisters and brothers.

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    Native Americans Exploited Again | 52 comments (52 topical)
    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#1)
    by Patrick on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:06:15 PM EST
    Still a republican only scandal?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:12:47 PM EST
    I assume P's link has to do with Mr. Reid. I cannot wait to hear this explanation. Cast the first stone.....

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:26:34 PM EST
    Patrick- Yes it is, and obviously you have not read the article that this thread generated. Asking the question is hijacking the thread. With that I will take the bait. If there were any shred of Democrats illegal activity they would be hung out to dry. The hounds are on it and have been for a long time. Only Republicans have been indicted or are under investigation. If you are attempting to conflate Abramoff's criminal activity with bipartisan lobbying practice, all of which has deep ethical problems, you are an echo chamber functionary. Wingnut's have been trying to obscure Abramof et al criminal activity with lobbying reform for some time now. Your hijack is already standardized and kneejerk at this point.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#4)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:34:10 PM EST
    I read the article. It's a long one. Among other things it claims drug use is a significant detriment to Native Americans, specifically the children. How does that square with pro-drug stance of TL and many of it's followers?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#5)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:34:53 PM EST
    This is just another one of those things that happen when you come in contact with a more advanced civilisation.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:44:05 PM EST
    Jondee, You got me there, I didn't read the article, but I don't have to read it to know that native americans are given many opportunities to "escape the reservation" and many don't because of tribal pressure that in doing so, they somehow consider themselves better than the ones who don't leave. My children, being native american in the true sense of the word, not simply becasue they were born here, are eligible for all kinds of aid from the both the federal and state governments. I can assume, based on my income, that of they are eligible, so are many others.
    If you are attempting to conflate Abramoff's criminal activity with bipartisan lobbying practice, all of which has deep ethical problems,
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't part of "Abramoff's criminal activity" influence peddling?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#7)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:46:28 PM EST
    Pro-legalization isnt the same as "pro-drug". Most people that Ive seen take this tack are pro-legalization with an emphasis on education. "Pro-drug"; thats kinda like "pro-life" isnt it? Sorry for the O.T.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 02:49:29 PM EST
    Patrick-
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't part of "Abramoff's criminal activity" influence peddling?
    No. And before you hijack the next thread read what it is about. Your 'guess' based on personal experience has nothing to do with this thread.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#9)
    by desertswine on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 03:14:40 PM EST
    You got me there, I didn't read the article, but I don't have to read it to know that native americans are given many opportunities to "escape the reservation" and many don't because of tribal pressure that in doing so, they somehow consider themselves better than the ones who don't leave.
    Wha?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#10)
    by John Mann on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 03:18:21 PM EST
    You got me there, I didn't read the article, but I don't have to read it to know that native americans are given many opportunities to "escape the reservation" and many don't because of tribal pressure that in doing so, they somehow consider themselves better than the ones who don't leave.
    I live in a small town in British Columbia. Roughly half the population are Natives, comprised of three major tribes and part of a larger nation. Their traditional territory stretches from near Cape Caution in the north to Cape Mudge in the south. It's a very large territory. An archaelological dig conducted just across the bay from where I live dated their presence in this area from approximately 8,000 years ago. A little north of here, near a small village called Namu, their presence was dated from some 13,000 years ago or around the end of the last Ice Age. These dates were determined by excavating shell middens, which are known for their ability to preserve just about anything for an incredibly long time. Captains Cook and Vancouver came by this way in 1792, and since then, things have gone downhill for the Indians. Too many people don't seem to understand that Indians, for the most part, don't want to be a part of the "white" world. They didn't ask Europeans to come here and ruin their lives, but they have had to deal with it. They don't want to live on the "res", but they were given very little say in the matter. As recently as the 1960s, Indian agents went around to coastal villages, loaded the people on ships, then burned down the villages. The people were then relocated to different reserves around here, their children were taken from them and forced to attend residential schools where the Christians who ran them tried to beat their culture and language out of them. The Indians around here are people of the forest and people of the ocean. They don't want to work in offices. They don't want to sell cars. They don't want to be accountants - again, for the most part - and the old ones struggle constantly to preserve their culture and heritage so that they can pass it down to the young people, who, unhappily, become "whiter" all the time. Fortunately, some of them realize it's a good idea to become lawyers, and they do so in order to help their people. Even so, there are far too few of them. The way Indians have been treated since "contact" is nothing short of genocidal, and those who complain about Indians getting "special treatment" really ought to keep their mouths shut because they have no idea what they're talking about.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 03:26:34 PM EST
    Too many people don't seem to understand that Indians, for the most part, don't want to be a part of the "white" world. They didn't ask Europeans to come here and ruin their lives, but they have had to deal with it. They don't want to live on the "res", but they were given very little say in the matter.
    Are they not free to leave the "res" but choose not to? Are they not free to live their lives, nominally, as they did before the Europeans arrived but choose not to?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 03:33:25 PM EST
    Jondee, the thing is many/most of the pro-legalization folks on this site are so because they are pro-drug. Even JM herself made a comment a while back, regarding MJ I believe, which sounded eerily similar to one of my kids complaining "it's not fair" that the other kid got a piece candy or something, and not a cold, legalistic pov of drug legalization based on law. (Don't ask me for the link to her comment, I just spent about 20 minutes searching just about every drug-related topic for the past year and couldn't find it...)

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 03:44:46 PM EST
    Patrick-One of the things, very significant, things not mentioned in the AP article you hijacked the thread with is this from josh marshall
    In this case, despite the AP story's narrative of lobbyist contacts, there doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever that Reid ever took any action on behalf of Abramoff's Marianas clients. Wasn't that worth a mention?
    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 03:50:27 PM EST
    Scott Shields at MyDD debunks this lame attempt to smear Reid. Read it if you want. No more from me on this. Way OT.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 04:12:48 PM EST
    If you think that this is bad, O'Donnell's article, read Mary Beth Williams' story. It is at the heart of the Abramoff scandal and just shows how evil this administration really is.
    This is where Abramoff comes in.  He was the slush fund operator.  Indians thought they were paying Pombo and others on House Resources and Senate Indian Affairs, et al., for help with gaming issues, and Abramoff was in fact padding coffers necessary to protect the industry from auditing.
    Auditing?? Auditing what?
    A large chunk of those federal lands are Indian Trust Fund lands, taken into trust in the late 1800s via the Dawes Act, and leased out to industries, ranchers and farmers at cut-rate prices.  The money was then to be managed by Interior and paid out to native landowners.  Of course, that didn't happen - hence Cobell v. Norton. The courts have ordered a full accounting of the Trust.  Problem is, many of the documents were destroyed, including a slew of them under Norton.  So the plaintiffs decided a few years back that the only way to get a real accounting is to audit the industries' books.  That's what makes everyone so nervous, as plaintiff experts, having done some sampling, estimate we're talking over $150 billion in underpayments and fraud, along with interest, of course.  Yes, $150 BILLION.
    This is at the heart of the Abramoff scandal. The palyers are Gail Norton, Deputy Sec. Steven Griles,Richard Pombo to Grover Norquist, and generally every major Republican in between. She has more at Wampum

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#16)
    by John Mann on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 04:55:28 PM EST
    Are they not free to live their lives, nominally, as they did before the Europeans arrived but choose not to?
    Are you serious?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 05:39:22 PM EST
    Are you serious? I know! I loved that! Just assumed it was sarcasm from the sarcastic one and let it go.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#18)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 05:39:46 PM EST
    Patrick,
    Correct me if I'm wrong...
    We try. Believe me.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#19)
    by aw on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 05:52:22 PM EST
    Give me a break. Show me one place where Jeralyn has advocated making drugs available to children. It doesn't exist, and you know it.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#20)
    by Johnny on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 06:11:52 PM EST
    Are they not free to live their lives, nominally, as they did before the Europeans arrived but choose not to?
    Not even close, and for you to say that demonstrates a level of mis-understanding I thought impossible. No doubt the fisherman will come after anyone who defends the native way of life, but oh well. The thing most white people will never understand is that white culture is inherently unpalatable to a people who have tasted true freedom. Where you see the indoor plumbing, we see you chained to a job 40, 50, 60 hours a week to pay for it. Where you see a large screen TV, we see you chained to a job 40, 50, 60 hours a week to pay for it. Where you see a grocery store with all the food under lock and key, we see the plains full of food for the taking, for all of the creatures. Where you whites introduced a culture that is demonstrably the hardest working, least leisure time, and until you figured out you can't sh!t where you sleep (incredibly recently for such an enlightened culture), the most unhealthy way to live the world has ever seen. The average hunter/gatherer worked 15 hours a week to provide food, shelter and clothing. People in your culture that work 15 hours a week are driven to the streets and outcast. Widespread famine, disease, starvation, crime, suicide, drug abuse, genocide, pollution, and general social discontent are all products of the western ideal of civilization. What really drove the whites up a wall is the fact we didn't A: give a rat's a$$ about property and B: didn't give a rat's a$$ about some supernatural being walking down a mountain with a list of ways for us to live better. Made it easy for the whites to initiate cultural annihilation, and in fact, it continues to this day with asinine comments like "they can get off the rez if they want..." Because everytime you make a comment like that, it is a value judgement on a way of life, a way of life you will never, ever understand. My great grandfather was one of the last generation on this continent to understand what it meant to live free. I am sorry your ancestors decided that a life of degrading, menial labor and constant submission to a strict heirachy was a better way to live. We didn't fight to the death because we were ignorant of your so-called enlightenment. We fought to the death because we knew full well what succumbing to it would bring. We lived a way of life that worked remarkably well for us. Your way of life held no attraction to us then,a nd it still holds no attraction. Wait a minute you say, you are typing this on a computer! You embrace white mans things! You hypocrite! We also embraced steel and rifles (once you guys began manufacturing firearms that were actually superior to our bows, oh about the early to mid 1800's), we embraced horses, we embraced cotton clothing, we embraced many pieces of technology. Of course, not a human culture anywhere in the history of the world has been found to not utilize technology. What we wouldn't embrace was your way of life. And now we have casinos because the land you so graciously herded us onto is worthless for farming, the only way to generate a food supply in the white man's vision. That was no accident. Take it Jimmy, always interesting to hear your viewpoints on the inferiority of native culture.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimcee on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 08:32:08 PM EST
    Where I live in Central NYS the Iroqouis nation seems to be doing just fine. Ray Halbritter (whom by the way is neither a chief nor sachem), runs the biggest gambling operation in NYS, the Turning Stone Casino and thier subsequent operations. The Oneida Indian tribe, et al, 'run' this operation and it is worth millions a year. They are not subjected to state or federal laws because they are thier own nation. The self-appointed head of the operation is a Harvard trained lawyer of Oneida bloodline. He has also fought a rather nasty internecine battle with the traditional and 'dislocated' Onieda's having cut them off from thier traditional homelands and thier subsequent homeland's subsequent windfall. The Casino is the largest employer in the area and so they have big pull in area politics. Really, really big influence. Jon Mann, The Canadian Gov't has always held a pretense of being exceptive of other cultures. In the past it had no problem creating 'Indian Schools' by kidnapping the children of tribal peoples to make them soluable into White society as was done in Australia as well. The Canadian Gov't is quick to give identity to native cultures but somehow it has been PC'ed into accepting them into the modern ghetto that thier political (PC) culture has created. That Native Americans could be told to bribe poiliticians by some random Jewish, fat guy and they did, speaks volumes toward the salesmanship of the Willie Lomans'of the political world and the need for more Harvard educated Lawyers of aboriginal descent. If any politician thinks that if his contribution didn't come directly from Abramoff but from a Native American source that had a casual acquaintence with the lobbyist and that makes it OK then they are leaving themselves open to future complaints. i.e., Harry Reid call your office...

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#22)
    by Johnny on Thu Feb 09, 2006 at 09:35:37 PM EST
    God for the Iroqouis, the more a tribe embraces white culture, the more palatable they become, of course. Of course, when a tribal member chooses instead to embrace his/her own culure instead, they receive none of the adulation bestowed upon the others. It is a problem, in this country, that every culture is tolerated on a linear scale with how closely they emulate indo-european ideals. Indians own casino-good. Indians kill whale-bad.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#23)
    by Rational on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:14:06 AM EST
    Poetic justice. The speaker for the Tribes - Ron Allen - is a dyed in the wool rethuglican who admired tricky dick sucked up to addled ron, worshipped poppa and glorified junior. Now he is complaining hes getting screwed. What did he think he was an Enron executive? Of Course the tribes are getting screwed by his hero's. That fact that it is occuring on his watch that he probably got in part because of his rethuglican friends and contacts is probably the only saving grace to this fiasco.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:54:02 AM EST
    TChris:
    Helen O'Donnell argues that a larger story underlying the Abramoff scandal has been overlooked:
    Do you really think that the plight of native Americans really underlies this story? I am forced to disagree. The Abramoff scandal is about legally obtained political contributions being used in an illegal manner. It matters not one whit if the money came from native Americans or Big Pharma. While the exploitation of native Americans is interesting and certainly worthy of discussion, it is only tangentially relevant in the Abramoff story. Frankly, dealing with it in the context of Abramoff is more like a distraction - something to help us take our eyes of the men behind the curtain.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:18:23 AM EST
    The thing most white people will never understand is that white culture is inherently unpalatable to a people who have tasted true freedom.
    Great post, Johnny. Very well said, and very clear, unless intentionally misunderstood. (which it unfortuately probably will be) :-)

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:27:43 AM EST
    punisher - You were a bit quick on your defense of Reid. From the WaPost.
    The activities -- detailed in previously unreported billing records and correspondence -- occurred over three years as Reid (D-Nev.) collected nearly $68,000 in political donations from Abramoff's firm, lobbying partners and clients. Reid's office yesterday acknowledged having "routine contacts" with Abramoff's lobbying partners. Reid intervened on government matters in ways that Abramoff's tribal clients might have deemed helpful, once opposing legislation on the Senate floor and four times sending letters pressing the Bush administration on tribal issues. Reid collected donations around the time of each action.
    And then:
    Abramoff's firm also hired one of Reid's top legislative aides as a lobbyist. The aide later helped throw a fundraiser for Reid at Abramoff's firm that raised money from several of Abramoff's lobbying partners
    Johnny writes:
    The thing most white people will never understand is that white culture is inherently unpalatable to a people who have tasted true freedom.
    Did that "true freedom work" for the females who did most of the work? How about the slaves? How about the those scarificed in the "flowerly death" ceremony? How about the tribe's elders who went off to die in the winter if food supplies became low? Johnny, as I have noted time and again, the Europeans came in and treated the NA's very bad. But so did the NA's to each other, and as shown in "The Contested Plains," group after group displaced each other. Your continual "oh life was so good" just doesn't work when the realty of the average life of the NA sinks in. BTW - Let's see some evidence of that 15 hours compared to 40 hours. BTW - There is a lot of opposition to Indian owned casinos from all sorts of sources. That's what they donate money to politicians. BTW - Can you tell me what:
    God for the Iroqouis, the more a tribe embraces white culture, the more palatable they become, of course.
    means? I mean you being such a stickler for detail and all. edger - Oh, I think most of us can understand it very well. rational writes:
    What did he think he was an Enron executive?
    Hmmmm. If he did, I bet he no longer does.... Ken Lay, etc., would probably be on his mind. rational, it is time to get a new bogey man...

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:11:39 AM EST
    Jim, the WaPo article is the same one that was debunked yesterday, a hit piece off the AP by John Solomon and Sharon Theimer. It's still OT for this thread, so I won't recapitulate their BS for them here. Here's links to developing commentary by Josh Marshall, of what they left out of their article and why it matters.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#28)
    by Johnny on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:48:12 AM EST
    Jim, as I have said before, you are comparing a culture that is arguably the most murderous the world has ever seen. You comments about women are ridiculous-that arrangement varied widely from tribe to tribe, if youknew anything about tribal societies you would know that. Slavery? Of course. But generally speaking, the more agriculturalized (in other words, the closer to civilized) a tribe became, the greater the prevalence of slavery and subjugation of wmen. Read this to start. Read Read this Read this Read this Read this Jim, I will explain one, more, time for you. Really slow. The Cheyyenne did not care what the Arapahoe did. They did not care what the Aztecs did. They did not care what the Europeans did. They did not care what the Mayans did. They only cared what they did. We had a way of life that worked for us, and was time tested to be as such. We were under no delusions thatw e knew the one right way to live (as the whites are so smug in their assurance that they do know the one right way to live. You really are either intentionally looking past the facts that prior to the "civilization" and "enlightenment" of this continent, people here as a whole were healthier, happier, taller... Or you are actually ignorant of actual history. You do not address the consequences of your culture. The massive crime. The massive unhappiness. The massive breakdown of family and community grouping. The massive famines endemic to agricultural societys. The endless warfare for purposes of conquest and annihilation (yes, we fought. but it is no use explaining the style of warfare we practiced. You don't get it. You never will.). The massive suicide rate (any culture that has that high of levels of suicides, especially among teens must be better, right?). The massive conversion of the earth into one seething mass of human bio-mass. of course, we would still be sh!tting in the bushes, right? Implicit in your response is something I addressed in my first post. People in this country accept other cultures on a linear scale to how white they act. You are absolutely no different. Sorry Jim, you have no idea, once again, of what you are talking about.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:14:00 AM EST
    Show me one place where Jeralyn has advocated making drugs available to children. It doesn't exist, and you know it.
    That's not what I said, or at least not what I meant. Her comment, that I referred to, was unusual for her. Instead of the dispassionate, logical, legalistic support for drug legalization that she usually presents, instead, IIRC, she made a plaintaive cry about how unfair it is that some should have access to the "joys" of MJ and the rest of us do not. As I said, I tried to find the thread, I remember making a couple comments on the thread. Does the Fed Gvt have legal access to MJ? If so, maybe it was a thread about that. Whatever the thread, I couldn't find it.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:25:15 AM EST
    Are they not free to live their lives, nominally, as they did before the Europeans arrived but choose not to?
    Ok, some interesting responses, let me expand a little. There are many examples over the years of people, who, fed up w/society, walk off into the wilderness somewhere and go back to living as (all of) our ancestors did. Johnny, if you miss that life so much, why don't you do it?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:48:02 AM EST
    Found it, here's the comment.
    If it's ("go" pills) good enough for U.S. soldiers, why is it unlawful for everyone else in America? (JM)
    I will admit, as I now re-read the actual thread, that she doesn't sound nearly as "plaintive" in her desire for this drug to be legalized, as she did in my memory of the thread.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:50:34 AM EST
    punisher - I wait with baited breath the correction by the Washinton Post, not a left of center blog. Sorry, but you wouldn't accept Power Line. Johnny writes:
    ....prior to the "civilization" and "enlightenment" of this continent, people here as a whole were healthier, happier, taller...
    Do you have a reputable source for this claim? And the ones you provide are well.... let me be kind... highly suspect. ;-) Sorry, but when you show these as "proof," I have to laugh or cry.
    They only cared what they did.
    So? Johnny, ample evidence shows that various tribes, etc., moved due to pressure from other tribes, fought wars, etc.
    You do not address the consequences of your culture.
    Johnny, you are having problems understanding that I have not defended what the Europeans did to the NA's. Bad. Terrible. Awful. Now a fact. I am not responsible for it. As to my "culture," if you are referring to "western" culture and that includes modern Japan, I again agree that it has many problems. So what? It is the most advanced the world has ever known, provides more material goods, recreational time, medicene, etc. for more people than any other culture in the history of the world. And it continues to improve. The "hunter/gather" society that you idolize never existed as you see it. The proof is simple. In other parts of the world, it changed over the centuries. Oh there were ups and downs and back and forth, but the trend was always away from the wonderful things you see in a typical NA tribe. That the NA did not is easy to understand. They were cut off from the rest of the world. And they didn't have horses and they didn't have the wheel. Johnny, read "The Contested Plains," "Guns, Germs and Steel," The Axemakers Gift," and "A World Lit Only By Fire." They are much more informative and accurate than the "Green University."

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 10:08:46 AM EST
    PPJ: punisher - I wait with baited breath the correction by the Washinton Post, not a left of center blog. The TPM links weren't meant to convince you, for the reason you note. It was for folks who are reading this thread, see the OT Reid smears, and want to know what's up. Powerline, echh. I hope Josh Marshall has a cache of Clorox at home. He's going to need to disinfect after that comparison... ;P

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#34)
    by Johnny on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 10:23:08 AM EST
    Jim, the fact that these societys existed, over hundreds of thousands of years, is ample proof they worked. What doesn't work gets tossed-you know that. I told you you would not understand native warfare. That is because you only see things through your biased eyes. I never denied warfare. Not once. I do deny the existence of native warfare waged for express purpose of cultural annihilation. Didn't happen. Displacement? Yes, although not exactly as common as, say pretty much every war civlized peoples engage in. You still don't address the associated problems with civilization. Crime, etc etc etc.. blah blah blah... You can't. You don't even look at it. You turn your head and say "look! were advanced!" Believe it or not, natives were happy, healthy people. You don't even need to read a book to see that-go to any region where people are still allowed to live the way they want, you can see for yourself. Jim, the sources I have cited are as valid as the eurocentric books you propose I read. I did read "Guns, Germs, Steel..." Not a bad book, especially for one whose entire purpose was to validate the extermination of aboriginal peoples. Now how about you do some reading? A good book to introduce civilization addicts to is "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. Another is "A language older than words" by jensen.
    The "hunter/gather" society that you idolize never existed (LMAO) as you see it. The proof is simple. In other parts of the world, it changed over the centuries. Oh there were ups and downs and back and forth, but the trend was always away from the wonderful things you see in a typical NA tribe. That the NA did not is easy to understand. They were cut off from the rest of the world. And they didn't have horses and they didn't have the wheel.
    Jim, that does not prove the tendency for humans to drift away from that lifestyle. It does, however, prove that being exposed to civilization will change tehir lifestyles. Hunter gatherer societys still exist in Australia, New Zealand, South America, Alaska, Canada, the northern stretches of Russia... They are not drifting away from it at all.. Oooooh no horses? How on earth did these people survive for tens of thousands of years without the white mans gift of horse!?!?!?! People are people, and if they see something that works better for their purpose, they will use it. Get over it.
    They were cut off from the rest of the world.
    And that is exactly what promoted survival. Duh. Isolated populations of any species evolve faster, healthier, and experience greater resistance to epidemic disease. Any ecologist will tell you that. Why are humans exempt? If the tribal system didn't work, it would not have been here for your ancestors to destroy. Can you imagine where civilization is going to be in a couple of hundred years? I can give you a hint. Human bio-mass will exceed the ability of the earth to sustainably produce food supplies. You will be gone. (Do a little reading into those pages Jimmy, you may fnd some hidden gems of knowledge.) Sarc-that is absurd. The lifestyle I would like to return to has nothing to do with strapping on a thong and living in a teepee. Rather, a return to a group of people organized a little, shall we say, different from what you know and love.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 10:40:33 AM EST
    Fair enough Johnny, of course I did very specifically say "nominally." I read all your links btw. Quite interesting, actually. Will you now read "The Boy Captive of Deerfield?" It's a fairly straight-forward first-hand account of life as a hunter-gatherer. It emphasizes the physical life more than the spiritul life, but you might find it interesting on some levels.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 10:52:18 AM EST
    punisher - One man's poison, etc. Johnny - They didn't change because they had no outside contact, and their transportation was very primitive. And the ones you refer to are very, very, very isolated. You write:
    And that is exactly what promoted survival. Duh. Isolated populations of any species evolve faster, healthier, and experience greater resistance to epidemic disease
    Huh? Can you say measles, small pox, syphilis, etc? Hope you're not in the healthcare field. You write:
    Oooooh no horses? How on earth did these people survive for tens of thousands of years without the white mans gift of horse!?!?!?!
    Not very well. One of the characteristics of a hunter/gather society is that is not able to produce more than what is needed for immediate survival. This limits population grow and insures an almost immediate high death rate due to some ecolological disaster, such as floods, drought, fires destroying their food source. And is civilization going to collapse because of population density? That's a popular belief straight out of the 60's. Elhrich's theories have been proven continually wrong. I mean, good heavens. I thought you were well read. Give up on the Green University stuff and try the books I recommended. Also study some science, math, etc. It'll help you.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 11:03:44 AM EST
    Oooooh no horses? How on earth did these people survive for tens of thousands of years without the white mans gift of horse!?!?!?!
    Actually, truth be told, the NA hunted the new world horses to extinction.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 11:40:36 AM EST
    Looks like the er....'Natural Selection' eugenics crowd is all up in arms over this one. Our god is better than your god.... Intelligent design etc. Disgusting, heartless and utterly predictable.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:25:42 PM EST
    And is civilization going to collapse because of cultural blindness?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 12:59:15 PM EST
    squeaky is here, edger is here....and there's Johnnnyyy! Carson that is. Movie stars... Beverely..... Hills that is.. (Mix and match Friday is fun!) SUO - Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 01:25:28 PM EST
    PPJ, for me, all human beings are fundamentally the same - good, bad, and in-between - be they NA, European, conservative, liberal, blah blah, blah blah blah blah. For any one person to truly feel his particular "brand" of human beings is inherently better than another is such poppycock and so blatently hypocritical on so many levels, that it leaves me speechless.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 01:48:17 PM EST
    Nicely put, Sarc...

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 03:26:24 PM EST
    And why would anyone disagree? About "people" that is. Cultures are entirely different. Are you claiming all are equal?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 03:49:03 PM EST
    I think every culture has an equal capacity for good and bad - they are, after all, cultures of man. This should be understood to be in no way an excuse for any culture that chooses to act "badly."

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 04:13:50 PM EST
    And why would anyone disagree?
    PPJ, btw, none of my last two statements should be construed in any way as intended to take you to task.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 04:43:47 PM EST
    ppj - Yes, nothing but "steady progress and improvement"; the progression Washington, Jefferson, lincoln and Bush is surely an example of that. Can I call you "big guy" from on?

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:33:14 PM EST
    Sorry Sarc, cold weather makes my old bones ache... But I must disagree, to a point. Perhaps the capacity is the same, but the capabilitiy, or perhaps probablity would be better, is much higher in non-democratic societies. i.e. The ME as a whole. Red China. North Korea. From the past, the Soviets, Germany WWII, Japan WWII, southern slave states, etc. jondee - Sorry little one, TL requests that we don't so it will just have to be jondee and ppjakajim. Now, are you claiming that the US as a society, or the west as a culture, isn't better now than they were in the past? Remember that no matter how much you dislike Bush, he will forever be between Clinton and whoever comes next.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:34:14 PM EST
    ppj - I wouldnt read your laundry list- with its inordinant amount of linen sheets. As far as your books go,( you forgot to mention My life by George Lincoln Rockwell and The Bell Curve) you should try some other sources other than the Aryan Brotherhood reading room.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:39:26 PM EST
    jondee- How clever of 'big guy' to call you 'little guy' whlie pulling out the teachers's rule book to tell you name calling is not OK. Must of touched a nerve, as he is not usually that clever.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:43:14 PM EST
    More on Amramoff's dirty deeds relating to Cobell v. Norton and the audit of Indian land use profits.
    Abramoff's contempt for his Indian clients is well-documented--in emails he referred to them as "monkeys", "troglodytes", and "morons"--but more and more it looks like the cause he was advancing was not just to line his pockets, nor even just to help protect Republican backers in the oil, mining, and timber industries, but rather an all-out attack on Indian sovereignty.
    link via Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:01:42 AM EST
    jondee - "The Contested Plains" is less well known than the other two, but was published by Univ. Ks Press. And no one can call the other two biased. So what do you do when confronted with facts? You break out the Nazi reference. Which is just a typical demonstration of Goodwin's - Godwin's Law. (You pick the one you like.) And, of course, no one is surprised. BTW - Just curious. Have you never heard of "Guns Germs and Steel" and the Axemakers Gift?" Surely you have.

    Re: Native Americans Exploited Again (none / 0) (#52)
    by Johnny on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:38:54 AM EST
    Just gotta chime in and ask Jim how he expects uninhibited growth of any population of any species to continue without eventually exceeding carrying capacity? Also gotta ask him if he can identify what apeidemic means? Jimmy, when I say resisting epidemic disease, you obviously have no clue what I meant. There is a reason you cannot show that widespread disease (another trademark of civilized cultures) ever occured. Small, isolated populations are resistant to epidemic disease through their veryisolation. I might also add that your capacity for being convinced you know the one right way to live astonishes me. Only from a culture that draws it's roots from a religion based on knowing how ALL people should live can be so arrogant and smug in their assertions that their way of life is obviously superior to all others. The unspoken assumption is that natives are too stupid to know how to live properly... When in fact we lived just fine, experiencing a level of freedom you cannot even comprehend, as evidenced by your posts. One need only look at the very few remaining tribes which live as they did for thousands of years to understand that you are wrong in your assumptions that they did not "live very well", that is proveable. You have no idea what I am talking about-you compare technological advances to advances in the human condition. Look at rates of cancer, especially in the 35-60 demographic and compare that with historical data, especially from aboriginal peoples. Look at it this way, Jimmy. Natives were born with the exact same brains as your ancestors-why didn't they feel the need to conquer the world and force everyone to live a civilized life? Why? Cultural vision is why-no aboriginal tribe has ever been convinced it has the "one-right-way" for people to live. They were all convinced they knew the one right way for their tribe. The fact that thousands of individual tribes with unique cultures and healthy populations is all the proof you would need that the lifestyle worked remarkably well for humans. But you can never see that-the civilized culture, be necissity, teaches you that before civilization, humans were miserable, pathetic,stupid, unhappy... Which you have compeltely endorsed. Now... if you can show me any species that grows without restraint that doesn't end up having a massive die-off, feel free. Humans are not exempt from the laws governing life on this planet, as much as your anthropocentric viewpoints would have you believe.

    Native Americans Exploited Again | 52 comments (52 topical)