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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 10:27:37 AM EST
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A wide open thread is overdue, so here it is. Some things I'm reading and watching:

  • The NORML video, Sam's Journey, in the ad on the right side of TalkLeft. I hope they enter it in the contagious festival.

  • Crooks and Liars has the video of John Dean on Olbermann last night discussing the NSA wiretapping scandal

Americans have forgotten what it takes to remain free. Instead, every ideology, every group is determined to use government to advance its agenda. As the government's power grows, the people are eclipsed.

We have reached a point where the Bush administration is determined to totally eclipse the people.

Your turn.

< Congress Restores Some Student Aid for Drug Offenders | Feingold Floor Statement Today on NSA Surveillance Program >

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 68 comments (68 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 11:24:19 AM EST
    Great little video clip this morning of Helen Thomas raking McClellan over NSA domestic spying. RawStory has the transcript here and Crooks and Liars has the video here.
    HELEN: (Inaudible) -- they broke the law, that's too bad. MR. MCCLELLAN: And we're going to continue doing everything we can -- HELEN: You know what happened to Nixon when he broke the law. MR. MCCLELLAN: -- within our power to protect the American people. This is a very different circumstance, and you know that. HELEN: No, I don't.
    Never seen Scotty look so uncomfortable. Go, Helen! ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 11:33:32 AM EST
    "skins" painted w/dye (die?) cast in dust, the homo- sapien must, runs modern as any athenian art- ery. stumble & bum all the way humm, gossip ancient as killing the stranger & hanging his parts in the square.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 11:51:43 AM EST
    edger - Of course he's uncomfortable. He knows he can't win. If he gave her a well deserved comeback he would be attacking an old lady. If he does nothing he will be criticized for... doing nothing. What he should have said was, "Helen, if you want to argue the law I will get you a meeting with the AG." et al - I was just curious as to why the Left has not sprung to the defense of the Danes. Don't you folks believe in free speech, even if unpopular. You do remember Ward Churchill, don't you? BTW - Don't look now but embassies are burning and people dying. Now. What was it OBL said?
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    Are you now starting to get what he meant by "whole world?" The issue dear hearts is freedom of speech, and with it democracy. You cannot have the latter without the former.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:02:30 PM EST
    Sen. Saxby Chambliss, a Georgia Republican, ran interference for the Busheviks, defending the wire-tapping of thousands of Americans without warrants or any offer of probable cause. Chambliss wants critics silenced. "Those folks who continue to go out front and talk in a negative way about this program may be aiding and abetting the terrorists," he said last week at a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing. What a champ.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:07:45 PM EST
    Yes Jim, we know that from time to time you take one statement that bin ladin made at one time, and take it out of context to try to support your theory that the only useful response is more of the same actions that are causing the problem in the first place. Is it that you'd rather the problems continue, to help you sell your fictional WOT, justify Bush's existence, and your support of him? There are also other statements made by bin Ladin, and there are also statements and actions of others that are important to be aware of, but then I'm sure you don't want to debate them.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:09:17 PM EST
    Edger, so if you have had the argument with him several times, why bother? Troll feeding is not allowed at the zoo.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:12:01 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, only to provide the context of the quote he takes out of context. Other people who don't comment here still read these threads... so it's for balance, really.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:13:25 PM EST
    Jim, Not all of us have condemned the Danes. I certainly haven't. Go back and read the threads more carefully, and for my own take, if you're interested (I realize you're probably not), check out the thread currently on the board. Still, your defense of the Danes hardly comes across as a testament to your passion for free speech. Rather, it simply shows that you agree with the message. There's a difference.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:17:21 PM EST
    When will western society understand that this is a culture war. No it shouldn't be faught with bombs exclusively but we should also not kid ourselves about who we're up against. The majority of Muslims in this world because they either live in a dictatorship or religously controled government have no level of understanding of what our western societies stand for. Freedom is not only foreign to them but offensive. Not to say the Danish cartoon wasn't unnecessary and foolish but the reaction in the Muslim world should again remind us that we are not dealing with reasonable governments or people. They either believe their rhetoric or force feed it to the citizens of their country in order to stay in power. Be it the dancing in the streets after 9/11, the riots in Paris, the murder of the director who mocked Islam, Salmon Rushdi, the riots after the false Newsweeks stories or the latest episodes. They believe that they have a superior religion like born agains but unlike born agains they are willing to enforce their beliefs through violence.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:27:24 PM EST
    E - I was there 6 months ago so I know what you are saying, but truth be told who cares? If someone else wants to have the same argument with him that has been had 3000 times on this site let em have it. I have read the same garbage from him for 3 years or so and it is a pain in the arse to scroll past his diatribes and to read through others posts that might actually have something poignant to say. Slado - Violence begets violence.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:33:52 PM EST
    JL I prefer non violence. What is your point? I only mean that we will never truley deal with the ME without dealing with the reality. Communism presented the same problem and people called Reagan crazy for calling it evil. It was evil. Muslim fanatics are evil and I worry that we are too concerned about being sensitive when reality is staring us right in the face.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:37:04 PM EST
    J, it is a pain, I know. I appreciate your points my friend, and I think you know that. But I also know that endless repetition is the only tool they have left to them, since they can't argue from reason and sense, and I really don't want to live in the dark ages again, you know?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:43:33 PM EST
    Does anyone have a problem with certain speakers using Kings funeral as a political pulpit? I have no problem with people crticizing the president, he's a big boy and can take it, but for people to complain about Iraq and Katrina when the purpose of the event is to honor someone's life is discraceful.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by rigel on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:44:04 PM EST
    "Muslim fanatics are evil and I worry that we are too concerned about being sensitive when reality is staring us right in the face." on both a personal and a cultural level, i'd much rather get my ass kicked for being too sensitive than foment even more resentment in order to win the most tenuous of victories. if this truly is a culture war, then the ONLY way we can triumph is to approach the problem with sensitivity and understanding.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:45:35 PM EST
    I don't know why anything Republicans do surprises me anymore. AP is reporting that Congress is circumventing its own laws to allow horses to be slaughtered for meat.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:49:51 PM EST
    edger - Out of context? Perhaps you failed to notice the question from Peter Arnett, and OBL's lengthy reply. If so, please read it again because it clearly is the context for OBL's answer, which in American would be: I don't care what you do, you must not bother Moslems, but we get to bother you. Do you actually need further proof? glanton - I defended Churchill's right, although I despised his words. Glad to know you also defend the Danes.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:52:04 PM EST
    Edward Copeland - For a good horse steak I know several good resturants in Brussels. Expect the meat to be fairly strong in taste, so choose your wine accordingly.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:55:06 PM EST
    Slado, I would argue that our policy over the past 30 years in the ME has put us in this situation, and the fanatics are responding to the pent up frustration associated with that policy. Our policy has not been a non violent one in the Middle East, hence violence begets violence. E - I hear ya man, I am just trying to speed up you getting to where i am at! I think every paper in the free world should run the cartoon along side one with Haysuse having a conversation with Bush, saying "George, do you think it would be ok if I asked you to attack Iraq?" Now that would be fun.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 12:55:40 PM EST
    if this truly is a culture war, then the ONLY way we can triumph is to approach the problem with sensitivity and understanding. Very good point, rigel. Conflict resolution, for any kind of conflict, has to I think have as its goal a win/win solution of some kind. Win/lose thinking in the current conflict may result in global catastrophe, and will only create deep resentment and a desire for eventual retribution and revenge, and a conflict situation that has not been truly resolved. It may seem that an easy solution is to beat an opponent into submission or kill him. Adolescent schoolyard (non)thinking. But when you're dealing with over a billion people you cannot kill them all, and you can only force them into submission temporarily before they rise angrier than before.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by desertswine on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:00:47 PM EST
    Does anyone have a problem with certain speakers using Kings funeral as a political pulpit?
    No
    "We know now there were no weapons of mass destruction over there / But Coretta knew and we knew that there are weapons of misdirection right down here / Millions without health insurance. Poverty abounds. For war billions more but no more for the poor."
    The mourners gave a standing ovation.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:01:30 PM EST
    I would argue that our policy over the past 30 years in the ME has put us in this situation, and the fanatics are responding to the pent up frustration associated with that policy. Our policy has not been a non violent one in the Middle East, hence violence begets violence. JL that is an excuse not a position. Do you have a position or do you want to pull a Switzerland and sit this one out?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:10:51 PM EST
    Slado - Position on what? On your rhetoric which pretty much takes no position? Or that we should cease all ties and relations with Saudi Arabia and Egypt until they come up to speed with our rights and freedoms? Due to our unfortunate addiction to oil, we are forced to have relationships with those we would rather not associate with. We are the strongest and one of the richest nations on the planet spending more on defense than almost the entire planet. My position is to eliminate completely the dependence on foreign oil. Until that happens, phase 2-3-4 cannot be implemented.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:20:11 PM EST
    My position is to eliminate completely the dependence on foreign oil. That I think, would be a very good first step to moving towards a win/win solution. Competition for resources is one major aspect of the conflict. There is no need to "compromise" principles. There is a need to compromise on resource use and find ways to co-exist. The cultural differences are enormous of course, and will take much much longer to resolve. Many generations, probably. Staying on a path that must result in one side "losing" so the other side can "win" only exacerbates the problems.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:23:20 PM EST
    Condemning people for rioting over a cartoon seems rather cartoonish in itself coming from a country that has been murdering innocent people on a daily basis for nearly four years because of a lie.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:26:30 PM EST
    Yes, and a dependency on oil, well that just means we have to hang out with a**wipes.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:27:30 PM EST
    J, I would argue that our policy over the past 30 years in the ME has put us in this situation, and the fanatics are responding to the pent up frustration associated with that policy. That's where the "second" link in my post above takes you, but we're really talking in the neighborhood of about 70 or more years, not just 30, so here it is again, this time with a quote from the article:
    An examination of the details and consequences of that theme provides a startling object lesson in the pitfalls and conceit of an interventionist foreign policy.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by rigel on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:30:02 PM EST
    narius keeps bringing up "enslavement of women" but isnt that essentially what went on here in the US before the women's suffrage movement? it appears that you have such a low opinion of our middle eastern brothers and sisters that you feel they will NEVER achieve equality of the sexes (and how's that working out for us on this side of the pond anyways? we certainly have nothing more to achieve on that front, eh?) without outside intervention. i think that's rather the soft bigotry of low expectations, no?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:37:52 PM EST
    rigel, I think that everybody here, in the final analysis, wants the same things. Peace, security, and prosperity. Some though seem to have a hard time envisioning any other methods of resolving conflict except confrontation, physical force, and beating opponents into submission. It is my contention that these are the root causes of the current problems we face. Our debate is one of methods, not of ultimate goals. I hope...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:46:27 PM EST
    Again, nobody knew Churchill from Adam until you and your Natalee network pals dredged up him and his remarks three years after the fact. The trouble with shuttling between Faux,Powerline,and The Spectator online is that it apparently leaves you with the false impression that everyone as stupid as your average wedge issue susceptible wingnut. Or, are you - what with the Arnett interview spiel - just running on autopilot?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:47:52 PM EST
    That was for ppj.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:52:28 PM EST
    R.I.P Al(grandpa)Lewis - Green Party Mensch and kitsch television deity. Keep fighting the good fight Al.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 02:11:16 PM EST
    We can also contain them like we contain the Soviet Union. It worked great! We have to get out of our dependence on oil. Containment is also a good starting point, perhaps, if the aggression of the past 70 years is slowed and eventually stopped. And that is directly tied to getting out of the dependence on oil, obviously. But after that, I think we should just cut our ties with them and see how long they will last without trading with us. The feeling is understandable, and better than a physical fight, but it's still confrontational, still win/lose. Besides, give up a market of over a billion people to sell goods and services to that they might want? Really?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 02:14:52 PM EST
    JL and Edgar if we stopped buying oil only the price would change not the problems of the middle east which is a radical faith.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 02:17:58 PM EST
    Not being dependent on one source does not mean never buying form that source Slado. Like with anything else, remember that multiple sources lowers the price...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by roy on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 02:18:31 PM EST
    Jondee, You mentioned in another thread that I claimed "money = speech doesn't silence those who can't pay". Where did I say this? I recognize that there are serious disadvantages to enacting the libertarian fantasy-land. If the well-funded Committee to Elect Evil Steve as President buys a million billboards, and the grassroots Anti-Evil League can only afford one in opposition, then the good guys are going to have a hard time getting attention. That's a bad thing, but it's an acceptable side effect of respecting the right to say what one wants. That right doesn't go away when one spends money or recruits help to exercise it. But then, I believe in natural rights, not so much a social contract. I don't mind limiting candidates' right to accept donations, btw. They work for us, or are trying to work for us, so we can set conditions. It's regulation of private groups that ticks me off. ... And nobody knew about the Danish cartoons until Muslim rabble-rousers dredged them up months after the fact. For whatever it's worth.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 02:23:06 PM EST
    Slado, we are not going to be able to come up with an all inclusive complete solution in this thread, and maybe not soon elsewhere, but a sensible starting point is still a place to develop from, right?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 02:50:41 PM EST
    Roy, knowingly or not you were being disengenous when you claimed that "the left wants to limit speech" without acknowledging that the right - in your "natural rights" world - also wants to limit speech. Why would you do that?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by john horse on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 03:26:53 PM EST
    I was never big on the "no blood for oil" slogan but Bush's recent claim that we are "addicted to oil" has got me thinking about this. Maybe we invaded Iraq for the same reason that a junkie robs a liquor store. Got to maintain that habit. Can't let that supply be cut off. Like Rush Limbaugh on oxycontin, we lost all sense of reason. But if we are addicted to oil, then doesn't that make the oil execs and ex-oil execs (like Bush and Cheney) the equivalent of drug pushers?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 03:30:37 PM EST
    John Horse, Yes. And Bushco is the Hells Angels letting them work the ME "'hood".

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    Roy - One more thing. Its a dessicated, woefully narrow world when "rights" "natural" or otherwise trump considerations of common decency, the pursuit of justice, and wisdom. If its any consolation, your sides winning. Congratulations.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 04:24:20 PM EST
    When John McCain has finished mortgaging his credibility as a middle of the road candidate, and still gets the cold shoulder from the GOP king-makers for 2008, he'll have a long list of regrets.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by roy on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 04:30:18 PM EST
    Roy, knowingly or not you were being disengenous when you claimed that "the left wants to limit speech" without acknowledging that the right - in your "natural rights" world - also wants to limit speech.
    At least one of us is confused. The Right isn't in my natural rights world. While the Right does endorse natural rights more than the Left does, most don't believe in the same set of natural rights that libertarians do. This idea is explained in Libertarianism better than I can do. The Right -- the real Right, with Bush and Rove and Fallwell and not me -- does want to limit speech. I just want to stop making people go out of their way to make it easier to hear others' speech by limiting their own. Maybe it's just a semantic difference from the social contract perspective, since both have the effect of making it harder for the disenfranchized to be heard. As for my claims about the Left, if you're talking about this thread, I was trying to make a point about the Left's selective support for freedom. The Left isn't pro-choice because they value choice, they just haven't seen a need to override that choice to achieve their idea of the greater good. Rambling aside, I should be more proactive about pointing out the downsides to my hair-brained schemes. Would that solve my disingenuity problem?
    Its a dessicated, woefully narrow world when "rights" "natural" or otherwise trump considerations of common decency, the pursuit of justice, and wisdom.
    I don't think most Leftists would admit that prioritization. You're more honest than expected. The funny thing is that the Right thinks they're doing a great job promoting rights, decency, justice, and wisdom.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 05:11:47 PM EST
    jondee wrote:
    Again, nobody knew Churchill from Adam until you and your Natalee network pals dredged up
    Are you telling us that the Imams in Denmark and England did the same thing as FNC? Do you also condemn them? narius wrote:
    We can also contain them like we contain the Soviet Union. It worked great! We have to get out of our dependence on oil.
    I wish you were correct. But the containment of the USSR was based on Mutally Assured Destruction - MAD. And MAD depended on both sides acting rationally. "I don't want to die. You don't want to die." Unfortunately the radical moslems are not part of a single nationstate and have demonstrated a willingness to die in any number of suicide attacks from personal "bombers" to car "bombers" to hijacked commercail airliner "bombers," etc. So, with that philsophy and without a nationstate to restrain them they truly are a new and lethal threat. Our dependence on imported oil should be solved not to remove us from the world stage, but to allow us more options in responding to the threat. The current riots, etc., over the cartoons clearly show that they feel they can control the West through the West's self avowed "diversity" and "sensitivity." I believe in both concepts, but am rational enough to know that both sides must accept the concept for it to work. The radical moslems do not accept that concept. The real question is this. Has the West, Europe in particular, become so slothful that the radicals will just walk in and take over. rigel writes:
    but isnt that essentially what went on here in the US before the women's suffrage movement?
    No. While far from perfect, there is no compatsion. For example. Women were not killed because they had brought dishonor to the family. They were educated. They were not forced to wear a particular head covering, etc., etc.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:38:55 PM EST
    There go the midterms. Details here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:39:17 PM EST
    Much has been said on this particular thread but it is easy to sum up: For those on the Left you mean to say: If you don't agree with me you are a facsist, anti-Muslim, violent, pro-Bush, anti-human race, propagandist for Jerry Falwell et al and it is your fault that those nice, innocent politicised Mullahs and thier sycophantic followers are screaming for Danish heads and burning Maronite churches and... causing them to be mean to thier women and...and...its all George Bush's fault. And of course everyone who disagrees with my college professor/Daily Kos/fill in the name my favorite Lefty blog...who told me what to think...you're, you are just too stupid to understand the world like I do.. To those from the Right: Hey I'm just saying that when someone tells me over and over again that Islamists will destroy all that I hold dear because some guy in a loft in Copenhagen made fun of the Prophet Muhammed in some cartoon that nobody would have seen if some d*ck-headed Danish based Mullah didn't fly to the ME with Danish flags and extra offensive made-up cartoons and one picture of some French dude wearing pig snout/ears in a hog calling contest taken out of context as an anti-Muslim facsist. I think that there many are on both sides that have good points but a poor way of expressing them. The Muslims world is rife with the type of stuff that would make a twelfth century Pope proud. People on the Left are defending a misogynistic, anti-Gay, anti-Semetic, anti-Christian, dictictorial fascistic embracing religion and embracing the idea that a CARTOON is a sufficient device to respond to with violence. Where were you guys when Sinead O'Conner was ripping up pictures of the Pope on live TV?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:44:10 PM EST
    Oh, and so much for the Left being Liberal....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:51:08 PM EST
    Where were you guys when Sinead O'Conner was ripping up pictures of the Pope on live TV? great. now we're supposed to invade the vatican.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:51:55 PM EST
    Slado, In regards to the CSK funeral post of yours earlier, I looked up the word declasse (DEC-clas-SAY)in the dictionary today and it was ilustrated with a picture of Jimmy Carter. ;). Man what is wrong with that dude...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:56:17 PM EST
    Punisher, There is a rule of thumb in warfare and that is never attack a place where the army wears fourteenth century helmets, striped pants and carry billhooks. Not to mention I was being sarcastic.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:58:51 PM EST
    j, me too ;)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 07:34:38 PM EST
    jimcee wrote:
    The Muslims world is rife with the type of stuff that would make a twelfth century Pope proud.
    True

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by aw on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:07:52 PM EST
    I'm coming to this thread late, but as a Norwegian, I will defend the Danes. They are some of the nicest people on earth. My paternal grandparents met and married in Denmark and my parents met there as well. When the Germans invaded during WWII, they evacuated virtually every Jew to safety and kept their homes intact until their return.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:45:07 PM EST
    You gotta be kiddin' me. From Laura Rozen:
    NASA's George Deutsch resigns. Not because the Bush political appointee insisted NASA literature add "theory" following every mention of "Big Bang," but because it turns out he didn't graduate from college as he had apparently indicated in his NASA resume.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:47:43 PM EST
    AW, You are so right. I have a few Scandinavian friends including some Hamburgians and they are really nice, generous and inoffensive folks. As a matter of fact the Hamburgians were constantly under threat from Muslim street gangs (Turks) and still didn't hold a grudge against them. They were very suprised that my American Muslim friends were not interested in beating them up and are now Internet buddies with some of them. Go figure.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 09:02:31 PM EST
    "go-getters" slim reed fat chance flying f*ck rat's ass snow in hell give a sh*t care less piss in wind.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 09:27:07 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ, I checked out your link and I will probably order the book. Unfortunatly most of the folks that correspond here only live in the recent past or near present but know naught of the lengthy past hence thier shallow nonsense that passes for quasi-intellegent discourse about the past. Heck if they knew anything the about history of Islam they would realize that there are many representatations of Mohammed in Muslim art between the 7th and the 16th centuries but it is easier to make excuses for violence if one is ignorant of history and can blame it all on George Bush. Just ask those rational protesters that are on all the newschannels this week. PS, I beg of you please just write 'Godwin's Law' to just silence the ninnies that keep brigging it up.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:13:31 AM EST
    Slado, that was so brilliant. Tell me sparky, what country in the middle east poses a threat to us? Is it Iran with their 450 planes in their air force? Is it Syria? Such moronic statements from you should not even require a response. How much do we spend on defense and how much does the rest of the world spend? A 4 year old with oatmeal is no threat to a grown man with 425 cruise missiles. I know, 9-11, 9-11, 9-11!!!!!!!!!! Policy created 9-11, intelligence FAILED us.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Slado on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:57:24 AM EST
    JL If you don't think Mulsim fundamentalism is a problem to western society then what's the point of arguing with you?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:08:01 AM EST
    Slado, JL sees the problem, I see the problem, and you see the problem. So does everyone else. There is great disagreement about (1)the causes of the problem... and great disagreement about (2)what the problem is, but very little disagreement about (3)the fact that there is a problem. From that as the premise we can discuss the other two.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:09:19 AM EST
    it's at least as big a problem as christian and jewish fundamentalism.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:17:02 AM EST
    Punisher, Yes. It's huge, this problem. The point I was trying to make is that we all, you , me, Slado, JL, everybody here, and the whole world, have a serious problem. We're all in the same boat, arguing about how we got here, where to go, how to get there, and whether the people piloting the boat know what they are doing, or are asleep at the wheel, or fighting over who gets to steer.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:18:11 AM EST
    Meanwhile the boat is heading straight at the iceberg...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:38:17 AM EST
    so we were waiting to see what Lieberman was going to say about the McCain's attack on Obama. Now we know. I hope Ned Lamont can do the job. There's no reason that CT shouldn't have a two Democrats in the Senate.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:58:27 AM EST
    So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    You keep trotting out this quotation, Jim, and since I don't think you're stupid, could you show me the part where he says Muslims should be able to do what they want in the whole world? What he did say clearly, Jim, and with no room for your mis- or disinterpretation, is that when the United States gets the hell out of Muslim countries, the jihadists will stop attacking U.S. interests. Where the hell did you or the U.S. get the notion that the U.S. can occupy and exploit any country it pleases?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:48:17 AM EST
    There is also no room for any but intentional misinterpretation of the main point of the quotation:
    it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:49:28 AM EST
    There is also no room for any but intentional misinterpretation of the main point of the quotation: it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    For some curious reason, Jim has been posting this quotation for the three years that I have been participating in this blog, apparently oblivious to what it really says. I'm like that about math: no matter how many times someone explains to me how to perform anything but the simplest calculation, I don't get it and have to memorize the formula. Sometimes I get the feeling he thinks the people who continually call him on it will give up - or maybe he just thinks we're all afflicted with the same reading comprehension disorder.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 09:57:04 AM EST
    John: For some curious reason, Jim has been posting this quotation for the three years that I have been participating in this blog, apparently oblivious to what it really says. I think it's got more to do with this John:
    "See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." --George W. Bush, May 24, 2005, Rochester, NY
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 11:16:07 PM EST
    "See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." --George W. Bush, May 24, 2005, Rochester, NY
    Golly, that sounds familiar... let me think... Oh, yes, now I remember... "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." --Hermann Goering * Quote from Goering according to Gustave Gilbert, a psychologist, in a private conversation with Goering, during the Nuremberg trials.

    Tuesday Open Thread | 68 comments (68 topical)