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Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Falls Short

By Last Night in Little Rock, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 08:21:12 AM EST
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by Last Night in Little Rock

The 2006 proposal of the so-called "Defense of Marriage" Amendment in red state Florida failed to garner enough signatures by the February 1 deadline according to the Secretary of State's Division of Elections website to make it to the 2006 election. DOMAWatch.org does not even mention it, yet.

The proponents in a statement said, however, they are still working because Florida law provides that the signatures submitted remain valid for the next election cycle in 2008.

And I still do not understand how a gay partnership, marriage or otherwise, has the slightest potential for the demise of a straight marriage. Constitutional amendments by initiative, however, do not have to make sense. Neither does legislation, for that matter.

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    Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Falls Short | 45 comments (45 topical)
    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 08:44:56 AM EST
    My personal view is that outlawing gay marriage is stupid, but that is just my opinion. My question is do we need to define marriage? If so what do we define it as? My view, the government should not get in the business of defining marriage. Unfortunately I am in the minority on both sides of the spectrum. People want government to recognize marriage because of the protections that it provides. I respect that, but contract law I think would provide a viable alternative. Leave the definition of marriage up to the individuals.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#2)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 08:47:07 AM EST
    The people pushing these amendments don't want to "define" anything. They just want to exclude people from their members-only club, and help get Republicans elected.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 08:53:18 AM EST
    But Michael, I am a Republican. And I disagree; they are trying to define marriage. They have chosen one man one woman on the premise that it is the best situation in which to raise a family. I disagree with them because I have gay friends, and I feel they would make great parents. Anyway, the government does have the ability to define marriage at this point, sanction it if you will, because of the special privileges it provides. I argue we should look to contract law and leave marriage up to the individuals.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#4)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:11:54 AM EST
    If James Dobson were more interested in getting gay marriage banned than in getting Republicans elected, he would have picked the states where it would be easy to pass these things. He didn't. Instead, he went into swing states, and used hatred of gay people to mobilize the ultraconservative base to get out and vote for republicans in general and Bush in particular. Besides, marriage is already "defined" in statute in every state in the nation. Dobson is once again targeting states with congressional and gubernatorial seats that are up for grabs and pushing these constitutional amendments that in practice do absolutely nothing because gay marriage is already illegal. It's no more necessary than moving the speed limit from statute into the constitution. All these amendments accomplish is a hateful message and a motivation for ultraconservative voters to go to the polls.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:25:50 AM EST
    Michael, Why are these amendments being put forth in the first place? Could it be because the courts are over ruling the statutes and saying they are unconstitutional, hence the amendment to the constitution. If the exact wording is in there then it can't be unconstitutional. It wasn't until the mayor of San Francisco went against state law and allowed gay marriage. It wasn't until the Mass Supreme Court ruled that laws banning gay marriage were unconstitutional. Yes these states have defined marriage in state law, but the courts don't care. As a result these people were forced to put forth amendments. I would say it has more to do with states that have liberal supreme courts than it does with electing republicans.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#6)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:42:37 AM EST
    The ferocity of the dobsonites in their opposition to gay unions/marriage/partnerships is at least partially fueled by irrational fear caused by doubts over their own sexuality/sexual orientation. A little self-loathing goes a long ways.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:44:36 AM EST
    And I still do not understand how a gay partnership, marriage or otherwise, has the slightest potential for the demise of a straight marriage.
    I agree but as you point out it does not have to make sense. My take is that the fury has less to do with a thoughtful analysis of the issue but it is a focal point to bring people together as a group. The us angin' them method used to manipulate a flock. Cash and votes baby.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:47:09 AM EST
    I am not opposed to gay marriage. I am however very much against activist judges. This is why I think the government should get out of the business of sanctioning marriage. It gives them more power over your life. Contract law would settle the dispute. Contracts can't discriminate, anyone can get one. As to the rights that people want, such as visiting loved ones in the hospital, I think I should be able to visit my best friend in the hospital but I can't because I am not family. While gay marriage might solve this problem for gays, it won't solve this problem for me. Don't tell me I don't love my best friends either, I have four one is my wife. If any of the other three were in the hospital I should be allowed to visit them, and I know that they would want this. I don't know how to solve this issue right now. Workplace issues such as health coverage. That is up to the business even in the case of heterosexual marriage. Take that up with the individual corporations.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:48:08 AM EST
    Steve, You likely have a point to some digree, although I don't think this is the driving passion

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:52:08 AM EST
    "And I still do not understand how a gay partnership, marriage or otherwise, has the slightest potential for the demise of a straight marriage." It can't, but that's not the point. The point is that christofascists hate our freedoms.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:01:25 AM EST
    Sailor, I will agree that
    christofascists
    want to take away our freedoms, but only if you admit that the vast, vast majority of Christians are not
    christofascists
    And indoing so you also admit that the vast majority of our elected leaders are not
    christofascists
    either I am sure there are some fascists, but then there are some in every religious group as well as every political group, in every population on earth for that matter.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:02:31 AM EST
    Sailor-
    The point is that christofascists hate our freedoms.
    I am always amazed that they profess love but the glue that keeps them together and the fuel that motivates them is Hate.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:06:00 AM EST
    Squeaky, You said:
    I am always amazed that they profess love but the glue that keeps them together and the fuel that motivates them is Hate
    I am always amazed when progressives who claim to hate stereotypes and generalizations make them.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:11:33 AM EST
    Stereotypes???? I guess edger is right, we have a new troll in our midsts.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:15:12 AM EST
    BSRB, Squeaky I think just left one word out of the end of that statement. "'often' motivates them is hate". is how I read it. She doen't 'generally' make sweeping generalizations, in my experience.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:16:45 AM EST
    Squeaky, I think edger said it best
    labelling you a troll. It was a cowardly way out of an uncomfortable and emotional discussion, and was only another opinion.
    see here

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:21:08 AM EST
    Edger, I still disagree, but I will defer to your judgment as you have been here much longer than I.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:26:10 AM EST
    My judgement is no better than anyone elses. I think you just jumped at Squeaky without giving yourself time to get to know her views and how she expresses them, over time longer than an hour or so. You did show a tenedency yourself yesterday to putting words in my mouth a few times, then criticized Telly (Charliedontsurf10) for doing what you thought was the same to you. ;-) Stick around, get to know these people. They are good people, most of 'em, who will stand up for your rights if you give them a chance...

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:33:54 AM EST
    edger-No I did not mean to use the word "often" because I was responding to Sailor's term "christofascists". Think: Pat Robertson, Dobson et al. No stereotypes here, their actions define them. Hate of the 'other' is what christofascists have in common. It binds them.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:34:48 AM EST
    I've learned a lot about myself from Squeaky and Sailor and Mike, and from everybody else here, BSRB. Have a good day. It's rainy and gray and windy and ugly outside today, so I think I'll get out there and enjoy the day! Later...

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:36:18 AM EST
    True enough, and point taken. Although, Telly Kastor did call me a bigoted racist, something I take very seriously. You can call me pretty much anything, but that won't sit. Anyway, I do apologize Squeaky if I did offend you. I was just asking that you be more careful before making statements against an entire religion. If you were just referring to christofascits, which the majority of Christians are not, or to James Dobson and his followers maybe. I can't say however as I don't know him personally or any of his followers as far as I am aware

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:36:46 AM EST
    "I will agree that christofascists want to take away our freedoms, but only if you admit that the vast, vast majority of Christians are not " Uhhh BSRB, beliefs are not a matter to be traded when convenient. You either have the courage of your convictions, or you don't. Tell you what, I'll pray to Christ if you pray to Mohammad. Squeaky, I don't think BSRB is a troll, just not quite used to our ironic, snarky comments yet. So I will try to explain the concept: incurious george is constantly saying we were attacked because 'terrerists hate our freedoms.' Yet he and his followers have done more to restrict freedom in the US and around the world than all of AQ's acts. I particularly used the word 'christofascist' in the same way folks use islamofascist. BTW, I am ordained, bless boats and can preside over matrimonial services.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:27 AM EST
    Ok, I misread you then. Sorry. Sailor's use of "chritofascists" was not a generalization? I came into the thread late so I commented without reading upthread first. That's how easy it can be to misunderstand things...

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:38:30 AM EST
    Squeaky, I just read your previous post, (see here) and I will accept that. Sorry for jumping on you about it.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:40:27 AM EST
    No sweat Squeaky!

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:42:14 AM EST
    btw Squeaky. Did you know you can link directly to a comment, not just to the top of the thread?

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:45:52 AM EST
    Sailor, The fact that you are ordained makes little difference to me. I am agnostic, but that doesn't mean I won't defend a religion when I see it being attacked. That said, I now understand your use of the word christofascist, and will accept. I don't agree with it, but then I don't have to.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:46:18 AM EST
    Sorry, that was meant for BSRB. About linking.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:47:26 AM EST
    BSRB-OK, apology accepted. Thanks sailor for your kindness, a good example; I will keep an open mind. Troll alert is back to green. Edger-
    I came into the thread late so I commented without reading upthread first. That's how easy it can be to misunderstand things...
    I have been there too!! No need to apologize, as your intent was clear and well meaning.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:49:57 AM EST
    All Well that was fun. I have to go to work now. Enjoy the rest of your day.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:50:02 AM EST
    Some days I'm as dumb as I look! :-(

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#32)
    by aw on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 12:55:39 PM EST
    BSRB: Just curious, why are you a Republican? And what do you think of your party when they push these DOMA/antigay bills and amendments?

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 01:18:58 PM EST
    I don't consider myself a Republican or a Democrat and I'm certainly not related to the James Dobdon that you mention above. While I disagree with a lot of your goals here or ways to achieve those goals I hope we can have a civil discussion without resorting to name calling. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with gays marrying each other if that's what they want to do. I don't think that should give them any additional rights than they have now. I also don't think straight people who marry should get any special rights. I might be wrong but I think most of the fuss is over money and who will benefit if gays marry each other and we have to give them tax breaks. The answer to this is to take away the tax advantage to straights too. I think we should take away all tax advantages to all groups and maybe eliminate the income tax completely, then there would be no monetary reason to discriminate against anyone. Tell me how I'm wrong.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#34)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 01:46:45 PM EST
    OK, one at a time:
    The fact that you are ordained makes little difference to me
    I wasn't trotting out a holier than thou attitude, I just mentioned some creds so'd you know I have nothing against religion, per se. Hate, I have a problem with, Love ... well I still have a problem with it but that's a personal matter;-)
    I hope we can have a civil discussion without resorting to name calling.
    Most of us hope for that, and sometimes dreams do come true. At least on this site;-)
    Tell me how I'm wrong
    Well, you'll learn quickly not to lead with your chin;-) But seriously folks, I don't think people behind this give a damn about money, it is all just mongering their hate and exciting their base. In the old days it was about blacks 'attacking' their women, nowadays it's about gays corrupting their men. Same tune, different lyrics. BTW, an economist friend of mine does object to the cost, his political POV might best be described as 'contrarian', but he accepts this as the price of freedom. My personal POV is that the State has no business in the marriage business. The State should regulate contracts, not morally judge who is making them. And nowhere has ever been mentioned that any cleric HAS to marry gays.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 01:55:56 PM EST
    Sailor-
    Love ... well I still have a problem with it but that's a personal matter
    Perhaps something shared by most of us if not all. Nice touch.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 02:06:48 PM EST
    aw: you asked
    Just curious, why are you a Republican? And what do you think of your party when they push these DOMA/antigay bills and amendments?
    I don't think you want me to answer the first question. It would take a very very long post and I will not subject you to that. No wise cracks here edger, yes I know I am a bit long winded, so just imagine what I consider a long post. Lets just say I am very conflicted politically and unfortunately not party really represents me. I do identify as a Republican because it is something people understand. For your second question, it bugs the hell out of me. Lets just say that there are a lot of things that the Republican Party and I disagree on.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 02:09:57 PM EST
    My personal POV is that the State has no business in the marriage business. The State should regulate contracts, not morally judge who is making them. And nowhere has ever been mentioned that any cleric HAS to marry gays.
    Well sailor, we agree on something. That is exactly my view on the matter.
    I wasn't trotting out a holier than thou attitude, I just mentioned some creds so'd you know I have nothing against religion, per se. Hate, I have a problem with, Love ... well I still have a problem with it but that's a personal matter;-)
    Understood, and nice touch. Thankfully, I don't have a problem with love.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 04:01:50 PM EST
    I've never been able to understand bigotry in any form as anything other than some kind of insecurity. What can be so threatening about, say skin color, and why would anyone care what turns other people on sexually? How does that affect them? Orientation is not contagious as far as I can tell, is it? Some people were born with better tans than me, some with worse. So? That's part of what makes life interesting. People come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and colors and inclinations and the world would be a pretty boring place if everybody was just like me, and had these fish belly white legs and red feet. Yeccch! How could I learn anything from anyone if everbody was the same? Marriage is contract, emotional bond, a promise to support in good times and bad, desire, a whole bunch of things. How anyones marriage can be threatened in any way at all by how other people choose to live is beyond me, except maybe because of some kind of psychological insecurity, and maybe a desire to force others into some kind of cookie cutter mold as an attempt to alleviate insecurities. I don't see how anything other than civil contract re property rights and financial obligations is any business of the state. I'm rambling...Am I making any sense here?

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#39)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 04:48:55 PM EST
    BSRB, "Activist judges" is a term invented by the likes of James Dobson to describe judges who don't vote the way the church demands. If you measure judicial activism in terms of voting to overturn laws passed by the people through their legislature on constitutional grounds even though the constitution is less than specific, then (using the SCOTUS as an example since this is a national site) Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist beat the other justices by a huge margin. The Mass. Supreme Court declared the state's marriage ban as unconstitutional because it was unconstitutional, not because they are "activist judges." If you read the decision, I don't think you can come to any other conclusion. The majority opinion was entirely based on constitutional grounds, and the dissents were based on the theory that it's OK to disregard the state's bill of rights if there were some unwritten "legitimate state purpose" for doing so. When liberals try that kind of nonsense, conservatives call it "social engineering." When conservatives do it, they call it "traditional values." What it boils down to is that government control over people is bad, according to conservatives, unless they get to be in charge of said control--in which case it's a good thing (tm). Re: party affiliation-- I totally hear you there. I could never be a Republican, but there are days (more than a few lately) when I want to tear up my DNC card.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#40)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 04:50:09 PM EST
    Orientation is not contagious as far as I can tell, is it?
    Don't worry, I always cover my mouth when I sneeze. :-)

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 05:06:12 PM EST
    I hope I am not making a false presumption here, but Michael don't cover your mouth we could use more gays ;.) I am opposed to all activist judicial rulings, right or left. You are correct, I have not read the Mass Supreme court ruling cover to cover. So I can't comment on that. But my argument still holds, you just added another reason why they will need to add amendments to their state constitutions.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 05:14:27 PM EST
    Don't worry, I always cover my mouth when I sneeze. :-) Mike, I never told you that on my birthday a few years ago a lesbian co-worker made me an honorary lesbian, and made me a frameable certificate (just msword) that I mailed to my mother. :-) She did it because she wished me happy birthday and asked me what I had planned that night. I replied "are you asking me for a date?" and she said "NO! You're the wrong sex!" To which I replied "SO? I like girls too! Is that a problem?" And no joke, her name is "Terry"!

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 06:51:51 PM EST
    Edger, all friendships derive* from communal likes. Sometimes that comminality is because we have the same taste in women ... whether they are the 'opposite' sex or not;-)


    *Notice I said 'derive'; I believe a true friendship evolves past that to an appreciation of our differences.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 06:57:52 PM EST
    She's great. Good sense of humour and we kid each other a lot. It's a fun friendship. Lighthearted and easy and mutually respectful.

    Re: Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Fal (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 07:10:19 AM EST
    Michael D writes:
    but there are days (more than a few lately) when I want to tear up my DNC card.
    Come on over to the Independent side. The Demos ran me off years ago, and the Repubs did the same a few years later.

    Florida Marriage Amendment Signature Drive Falls Short | 45 comments (45 topical)