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Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Protestors: the NYPD

by Last Night in Little Rock

In the Civil Rights / Vietnam War protest era, spanning over a decade, the FBI routinely engaged in surveillance of anyone associated with either. It was in the J. Edgar Hoover FBI playbook, and Richard Nixon required his FBI to keep files on war protestors. (Ok, you got me; there's probably a report or two on me.)

Today's NY Times has an article about the NYPD videotaping demonstrators in NYC. The strange part about it is that they are videotaping NYPD officers demonstrating for lack of a contract with the police union. The union sued the NYPD claiming First Amendment intimidation, and the allegations read like the Hoover horror stories of the 60's-70's.

The lawsuit by the police union brings a distinctive voice to the charged debate over how the city has monitored political protest since Sept. 11. The off-duty officers faced a "constant threat of arrest," Officer Liddy testified [in a deposition], all but echoing the complaint by activists for other causes that the city has effectively "criminalized dissent." ...

At the core of all three cases are questions about the expanded powers the police were granted after the 2001 attacks, and how much the department needs to know about the politics of people who are expressing their views.

In 2003, a federal judge eased longstanding and strict limits on surveillance of political activity at the request of lawyers from the city's corporation counsel office, who argued that the Police Department needed broader authority to use such tactics to fight terrorism.

Since then, police officers in disguise have taken part in demonstrations, an approach the Police Department says it used before receiving the expanded powers; other officers have made hundreds of hours of videotapes of people involved in protests and rallies, very few of whom were charged with breaking any law. Neither form of surveillance, the city argues, violates the Constitution.

The City has a point. Videotaping what happens in a public place does not violate the constitution, but that is an oversimplistic view of one issue: The Fourth Amendment. The City did receive some complaints of harassment of others, but how bad is it? It is but an excuse for something else?

The protesters also have the counterpoint. What is the NYPD going to do with the videotape? If they are going to use it to make up a list of future surveillees or targets for disciplinary action, then the protestors have a right to worry. Reports will be made; dossiers compiled; free speech threatened. And that is the issue, and it is a First Amendment claim.

The more things change, the more they seem the same.

First, the Nixonian paranoia in the White House, then the potential wiretapping of every international telephone call, then this. In the Republican interest of smaller government, they let the locals do the local surveillance.

< Rep. Boehner's Voting Record | Judith Miller Subpoena Case: More Redacted Info Released >
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    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 05:41:50 AM EST
    You know, I can't figure this out. We have people demonstrating in public, and screaming about being video taped, photograped, etc. What's the problem? You have the right to protest, so protest alreadty! You do it in public, it's public.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 05:44:06 AM EST
    Reminds me of Serpico...

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 05:47:30 AM EST
    Republican interest of smaller government That was irony right John? ;-)

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#4)
    by mpower1952 on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 06:07:10 AM EST
    Is it only the police that have the right to film people on the street? Can anyone take a camera and start a collection of videos of innocent citizens? BTW- I had this happen to me at a protest of the Iraq war before it started. It's a very creepy feeling to be treated like a criminal when you know you are doing nothing wrong and intend to do nothing wrong. It really is intimidating in a Big Brother is Watching way.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 06:15:16 AM EST
    It really is intimidating in a Big Brother is Watching way. That seems to be the purpose of things like this. Other than it being done out of extreme insecurity, I see no other reason for it:
    When the Master governs, the people are hardly aware that he exists. Next best is a leader who is loved. Next, one who is feared. The worst is one who is despised. If you don't trust the people, you make them untrustworthy. --Lao Tzu


    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#6)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 06:24:55 AM EST
    What's the problem? You have the right to protest, so protest alreadty! You do it in public, it's public.
    If a cop tapes me for his own video collection, that's creepy, but not exactly authoritarian. If a cop tapes me and puts the film in a secret government dossier, that's a teensy bit different. You, uh, feeling okay, Jim? Your cognitive abilities seem diminished.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#7)
    by DonS on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:02:02 AM EST
    Could some one remind Jim of that Soviet dictator, Malin, or Balin, or something like that, who lauded such practices. Oh yeah, and there's this book by some guy named Orwell, I can't remember the name right now, but possibly guys like Jim never heard of it. I hope.

    Do you have any idea how many files i have? not in the old FBI But right now? i am under local sureillance for talking out against insane government and police drug deals. The fact is we do live in a totally corruption of the ideals of freedom and duty to others. the fact is bush is that idea of corruption and we have a congress of fools, the system will go on and someday you will be in a cell asking why? the system of evil wants bin laden to win and bush is part of this evil system.

    Oh yes i have over 300 pic's taken by government and a file that has over 3000 pages. this is not a joke its for real, and we are way over orwell's book and we are running to the soviet system DonS.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:50:01 AM EST
    scar writes:
    If a cop tapes me and puts the film in a secret government dossier, that's a teensy bit different.
    Why? You have done nothing wrong. I see no difference than having your picture taken by a news organization and kept on file. And...
    You, uh, feeling okay, Jim? Your cognitive abilities seem diminished.
    Really? I don't think so. But in any case that's a nice example of Goodwin's Law at work. et al - All of this grinding of teeth and pulling of hair is based on your unstated belief that, at some point, the government will dig up the film and dispatch the storm troopers to snatch you up. All the references to 1984 aside, I just don't see that happening.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#11)
    by DonS on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:56:20 AM EST
    Its the INTIMIDATION Jim, at the very least. The fact that you don't see it happening does not speak well for your sensitvity to privacy and civil liberties. Nor for your ability to extrapolate the lessons of history and the rise of repressive government practices. If you're merely being devil's advocate you have picked a damn poor topic.

    Wikipedia on Surveillance abuse:
    ...In the mid 1800s in the United States, most large cities had public police agencies that engaged in covert surveillance of criminals and groups deemed "radical." As this practice became common, so did allegations of surveillance abuse. (Marx & Fijnaut) ...During the FBI COINTELPRO operations, there was widespread surveillance abuse targeting political dissidents, primarily on the political left. See also Political repression
    And remember COINTELPRO?
    ...A major investigation was launched in 1976 by the Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities of the United States Senate,... In the Final Report of the Select Committee COINTELPRO was castigated in no uncertain terms: "Many of the techniques used would be intolerable in a democratic society even if all of the targets had been involved in violent activity, but COINTELPRO went far beyond that...the Bureau conducted a sophisticated vigilante operation aimed squarely at preventing the exercise of First Amendment rights of speech and association, on the theory that preventing the growth of dangerous groups and the propogation of dangerous ideas would protect the national security and deter violence."


    PPJ: ...belief that, at some point, the government will dig up the film and dispatch the storm troopers to snatch you up. The conservatarian in me would worry about that.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 08:38:54 AM EST
    Jim: All of this grinding of teeth and pulling of hair is based on your unstated belief that, at some point, the government will dig up the film and dispatch the storm troopers to snatch you up. Wow... Not at all. Not even close. In fact you're so far off the mark with this statement that I have difficulty thinking that even you believe it. You may find it hard to understand that people would be concerned about others, but most everyone opposed to this kind of stuff is concerned that their government is, under the cover story of "keeping you safe and secure", using the intelligence data they collect against other people. Against people like you, and using that fact that they do it mostly to program and brainwash people like you. Most are not even remotley concerned for themselves.

    I think the real elephant in the room is the Hypocracy. It's the irony of how the Photo takers have responded to having their photos taken! Clearly they know the purpose and the uses the snapshots will be put. Their protest says volumes about why anyone should be concerned about the police taking their pictures at protests. It to me also illustrates the true nature of the Chickenhawk and Yellow elephants who appear so brave and hawkish when it comes to fighting wars as long as it's with someone elses son blood and life.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#16)
    by DonS on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 08:58:22 AM EST
    Edger says "You may find it hard to understand that people would be concerned about others, but most everyone opposed to this kind of stuff is concerned that their government is, under the cover story of "keeping you safe and secure", using the intelligence data they collect against other people." You're so right. I'm not much conerned for myself. Actually I'd almost relish the ideas of the fascists coming after me. I've got my legal ability to come back at them, and a really combative streak that I can at times energize to go after the bastards. I've got a spiritual practice that helps me see this cycle of fascism in a different context. And, I'm getting ready to find a means to leave the country, at least part time. But . . . I am concerned about the future of the civil liberties. And I am concerned about others without my, even meager, resources to fight being trampled underfoot. I lost the bulk of my family to the Nazis. I have little tolerance for the antics of these protos. NB - To those who counter with the cliched right wing arguments I say either there is no hope for your brainwashed minds or I am reviled by your corrupted souls.

    If this government ( read money oil and dismantling the system for business ) wants to win it would but this war is a made up outrage against all of us. Bush knows the family of bin laden he was helped by that family bush is not really our president. who is bush really working for and who is bush in fact. Fact 800 billion for business in middle east, cuts of over 39 billion for schools and much more. is this win a real war people are being killed and who is who inside the system? ask where is bin laden?

    Really? I don't think so. But in any case that's a nice example of Goodwin's Law at work. Lol, is this a running joke now? I can't find the OMG secret nazi reference in my comment. Highlight it with a flashing swastika and put that japanese song in the background, please. (Okay, obscure internet joke.) et al - All of this grinding of teeth and pulling of hair is based on your unstated belief that, at some point, the government will dig up the film and dispatch the storm troopers to snatch you up. All the references to 1984 aside, I just don't see that happening.
    So basically, your position boils down to "I don't believe the government would do bad things." Historically, this is a viewpoint that has led to very few good outcomes.

    I'd expect a small government conservative / libertarian / whatever to understand that when the government has the power to indefinitely detain its citizens for arbitrary reasons (according to Bush, it does), that is a problem, no questions asked because none are necessary. "I don't think they'll go too far" is not a justification. It's like if I point a howitzer at your house and say "Don't worry, nobody will fire it." Governments cannot be trusted with this power. Period. Heck, some might even say there's a reason why the Constitution forbids it. Do you disagree?

    Why? You have done nothing wrong. I see no difference than having your picture taken by a news organization and kept on file.
    Private... government. Government... private. Which of these two words does Jim not understand?

    Peace Fresno members discovered one of its members had actually been a government agent when the Fresno Bee published an obituary on September 1, 2003, about Aaron Kilner's death in a motorcycle accident. In his obituary, Kilner - known to Peace Fresno as Aaron Stokes - was identified as a member of the Fresno County Sheriff's Department's "anti-terrorist team." When members of Peace Fresno saw the picture and read the obituary they began piecing the story together.
    Link PPJ hasn't given a good reason why taxpayer funds should be expended monitoring taxpayers exercizing their Constitutional rights and liberties(you know, the 'freedom' that OBL hates about us). Aside from the fact that they even if the cops doing it aren't breaking the law with their survellience activities(which we only have their word for, BTW, et al), what is the reason for the monitoring in the first place? What purpose does it serve? Of course, it's usually liberals who waste money on goverment programs with no clear purpose or outcome.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#22)
    by Patrick on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 01:35:49 PM EST
    Seems to me they really have no room to complain about the use of video-tape. It's neither good nor bad, just records the events of the protest. Being in public really prevents one from objecting to having their picture or video taken, IMO. That's why they call it public.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#23)
    by Patrick on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 01:47:22 PM EST
    PPJ hasn't given a good reason why taxpayer funds should be expended monitoring taxpayers exercizing their Constitutional rights and liberties
    If you feel they shouldn't, that's a local matter that concerned citizens should bring to the city/town/county supervisors. It's like any other complaint about police department procedure. If the city/town/county supervisors agree with you, they will take the appropriate action. If not, well, you've done your part and earned the right to be vocal about it. If you think it's illegal, please show me a link that supports your position.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 01:47:27 PM EST
    That's interesting to hear you epouse that attitude towards it Patrick. When I was a very young boy growing up my parents, and my teachers, often told me "The Policeman is Your Friend". But no one ever told me they spy on each other...

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#25)
    by DonS on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 01:52:52 PM EST
    "That's why they call it public." As in the "public" space surrounding Bush's bubble? Or the "public's" right to bring protected speech to the House chamber? The availabilty in the "public" arena of "public" information about "public" visits to the "people's" house? That kind of "public"? Private photograhs of private individuals cannot be used or published without permission. There has to be a legitimate public purpose for even public offcials to photograph people in public. What is it?

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 02:33:01 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - I am not in the business of explaining why government funds should be expended for any purpose, much less filming demonstrations. Why in the world would you think I was? Scar - Goodwin postulated that:
    Professor Goodwin, U of I, in 1981 made the observation that Usenet discussions gravitate downhill.
    I.e. Like most bad things, they have a beginning, middle and end. I leave it to you to decide at what level your comment was. BTW - I didn't say "trust government." What I said was that if you do things in public, don't be surprised if it gets recorded. I see no rights to privacy in public actions. DonS writes:
    Its the INTIMIDATION Jim, at the very least. The fact that you don't see it happening does not speak well for your sensitvity to privacy and civil liberties.
    Sensitivity? The Left routinely takes credit for our freedom, and you worry about intimidation and sensitivity? Do you think the troops say, "Excuse me," before they shoot a terrorist? edger writes:
    and using that fact that they do it mostly to program and brainwash people like you.
    Huh? Is that your argument? And DonS... Your response is to leave the country? To where? I am disappointed. I thought you folks would be yelling to demonstrate, and supporting your candidates, voting, etc..... I mean, Ed Beckman writes about "chickenhawks and yellow elephants..." Was he confused, or what? Look. If the government gets to that point, the fact that you are a Leftie will be well known in a variety of sources. Do you really think that some pictures of demonstrations will make a difference? What we have here is a failure to really want to demonstrate.... Like we said as kids... I will if you will. No you won't. Yes I will. Okay. Tomorrow I'll walk by the graveyard. Sure? Yes. No you won't... and etc, etc. In the meantime, public still means public. So, DonS you wrote:
    Private photograhs of private individuals cannot be used or published without permission. There has to be a legitimate public purpose for even public offcials to photograph people in public. What is it?
    You're telling me that if I shoot a picture at a ballgame of some player reaching over the rail to make a great catch I must get approval of everyone in the shot before I sell it? Don't think so. If you are in public you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, especially if your actions place you in a situation that can be expected to be of interest. Be that ballgame or demonstrations.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#27)
    by cpinva on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 02:46:58 PM EST
    guys, you're all starting from a baseless premise: that jim is capable of rational thought, and actually has the remotest clue about our constitution. time and again, his posts prove otherwise, why should today be any different? did hell freeze over and i missed it? the nonsensical responses provided under oath, by nycp officials, are the clearest evidence of a truly hapless leadership. they operate under the theory that "eveyone's guilty, until we decide they're innocent." and our tax dollars pay for this. i wonder if this proves the fatal chink in the fabled "blue wall of silence"?

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#28)
    by Patrick on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 02:59:22 PM EST
    But no one ever told me they spy on each other...
    Spying would tend to indicate a clandestine approach to the videotaping. I don't know that that is the case here, but I have no problem with it if it's out in the open. Copwatch advocates the filming of police officers in the performance of their duties. I have no problem with this either, as long as they maintain a safe distance so as not to interfere or endanger any of the involved parties. So why should I have a problem if cops do it to other cops. In fact I'd expect cops to protest lawfully. I have no such expectation of the general public. I think in this case the cop's concern comes from possible exposure to internal discipline more than criminal sanctions.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#29)
    by DonS on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 03:00:50 PM EST
    "If the government gets to that point, the fact that you are a Leftie will be well known in a variety of sources. Do you really think that some pictures of demonstrations will make a difference?" Damn, I'm sorry Jim. Here I thought we might be having a discussion about principle, and the limits of police surveillance. Thanks for reminding me its only about saving my a**. You still don't get the whole intimidation thing, do you? Well, we tried. Oh, BTW, pictures in a ballpark of partons incidental to a public personna's photograph isn't even in the same category as publishing a particular private indviduals photograph. The point of surveillance pictures is to potentially identify each and every individual. There has to be a reasonable justification or, in a democracy anyway, should be.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 03:06:40 PM EST
    Jim, I wasn't going to announce this till later, but we've all changed jobs recently and now work for the NTFNSA. And we're keeping very close tabs, and files, on your progress... ;-)

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 03:11:29 PM EST
    Come on Patrick. Imagination... I was referring to the fact that there are tens of millions of children growing up out there. What the h*** do you think they think about police when they see or hear about this kind of cr*p? And if you think kids don't notice when their parents or those in authority lose their minds, think again.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 03:33:16 PM EST
    'Goodwin' never postulated anything, Godwin did. If you don't believe me, just ask Mike. And it is insulting to him to keep attibuting his work to another. Back on topic: And not only is the NYPD guilty, but Rumsfeld has admitted:
    "U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed on Thursday that civilians in the United States are under surveillance in a program to protect military personnel and bases.

    The "counter-surveillance" program, in line with the Defense Department's responsibility to protect U.S. forces, is aimed at preventing civilians gathering sensitive information and taking pictures of security installations, Rumsfeld said at the National Press Club.
    So the DOD is spying on Americans. The NSA is tapping our phones. People get locked up for wearing a T Shirt. I can't believe any American not only isn't chilled, but would endores these Orwellian tactics.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 06:08:24 PM EST
    Did anyone else ever know someone like that? Yep, I know someone just like that... Small world. ;-)

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimcee on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 06:42:44 PM EST
    If your worried that you might be filmed by the Gov't I suggest you just stay home. Things people have been filmed doing: Zapruder filmed JFK losing his head, Cameras caught the violent police reactions to the Civil Rights marches, CBS filmed the Chicago police busting heads in 1968, The AP photographed the execution of a Viet Cong officer, Jesse Jackson held his dubious bloody shirt for the cameras after MLK's assasination, Recently cameras have recorded the beatings of homeless men in Florida and a reckless police shooting in LA. What would Rodney King be doing for a living if he wasn't filmed getting the snot kicked out of him (IMHO he deserved the beating but not the reward).... This is nothing more than spoiled 'red meat' being tossed to the sad remnants of the '60's holdouts by Last Night In Little Rock but that is not unusual for LNIL PPakaJim has it right. Although Sailor is correct about Godwin's Law. If you do something in public then you should expect someone to be watching, gov't or otherwise. It doesn't matter what your politics are you are in public. I'm sure there is no one on this thread who would think that any of the examples I used earlier should not be in the public domain. So why would you think that you're so special that your public appearances should not be recorded or that you should be allowed to edit your public behavior. But if you find yourself on camera just wave and say 'Hi Mom!'. From what I've read above I understand why political correctness is such an abhorant thing because those who practice it want to edit reality to thier own ideals. Talk about Orwellian. PC is censorship by another name. How pathetic.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#35)
    by Patrick on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:13:34 PM EST
    What the h*** do you think they think about police when they see or hear about this kind of cr*p?
    Well I guess that depends on how their parents raise them. Some will understand, some will not, just like adults.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:36:49 PM EST
    Touche, Patrick. I deserved that. ;-)

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimcee on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 08:10:24 PM EST
    telly kastor, Although I'm sure you know that my brain isn't functioning and I have no integrity you cannot deny the fact that the gov't did use those tapes for investigative and legal prosecutions. And is there any doubt that the owner of the private camera will allow the pictures of the homeless man's brutal beating be used by the gov't? Or the video of the recent reckless and unwarranted shooting in LA? If you drive you are on film. I waved to my wife from the Place D'arms in Montreal last week by looking at a public video cam that she watched from Central NY via the internet. I can find my house from space using Google Maps who incidently use gov't files for thier data base.If you file tax returns the gov't knows more about you than your friends probably do. If you think that if the gov't uses it it is somehow different? Then telly, you are a fool. If they use it to falsely prosecute you for something you didn't do in public then I'm on your side. Somehow you seem too petty for anyone's attention beyond this thread. If you think your different then I would guess you probably suffer from delusions of grandeur and probably should give Fred D. call. When you do something in public you should expect to be seen or at least act as if you are being seen. When you demonstrate against something what use would it be if no one saw you demonstrating? If you didn't want the public or i.e. the gov't to see you protesting than you wouldn't protest in public. Unless of course your one of those cowardly anarchists that insist on wearing a ski mask. Heck, if you didn't show up on CSPAN you would be the first to cry censorship. Man, there is nothing like being insulted by a fool but especially a fool who thinks he's brighter than the next guy. Sheesh.

    I am not in the business of explaining why government funds should be expended for any purpose, much less filming demonstrations. Well, I merely stated that you haven't offered a defense of why the goverment should use the money that you, others, and I pay out in taxes for this purpose. I made an observation, and you haven't refuted it or given a reason why it shouldn't have been made. Why in the world would you think I was? I didn't think you were, so quit tugging on those goalposts, you'll throw your back out.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimcee on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 10:39:32 PM EST
    Telly, You wouldn't be CDS10 in drag would you? You sure sound like him. Correct my grammer and usage if you like but you won't refute my points? Instead you chose to correct my language? What a clever thing you are. My refutation of your rather childish paranoid nonsense stands until you prove me wrong but you can't, can you? Uhmm, Telly, sure Montreal is in Canada but my wife accessed my greetings through a private internet camera from the US. We've done the same in Chicago and NY and those are in the US but of course you know that as you are a man of letters and geography. Would you protest if the NSA viewed those same images for free via the internet? I wouldn't. So now that we are done being snide with each other answer my honest question: How are private cameras being used by the gov't less intrusive than the gov't using them itself, which it does on Times Square in NYC and in and around virtually all government buildings? Localities use them at traffic lights in many major cities particularly the District of Columbia. With your vast knowledge of geography I'm sure you can name the country of which I speak. So again explain to all of us poor foolish people how someone from the gov't shouldn't be able to film your actions in public places? Are you planning to break the law and so you want your anonymity protected? Wear a ski mask as they are all the vogue in certain circles. If you're not CSD10's chimera then you are just another childish poster with a larger sense of your own intellect than is warranted. So again please refute my previous statements and leave out the invective as it only creates the image of someone who can't honestly form an argument and so retreats to petty grammtical one-upmanship. The ball is in your court, sport.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#40)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 11:56:51 PM EST
    Civil rights have never been big on the conservative agenda. Remember how the conservatives led the fight for equal rights in the sixties? Me neither.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 04:12:45 AM EST
    Repack, I remember that like it was yesterday. :-(

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#42)
    by Patrick on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 10:33:13 AM EST
    Civil rights have never been big on the conservative agenda.
    Please define the "civil right" you're referring to in this scenario and tell me where I can find it's legal origin.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 12:21:32 PM EST
    Denver police release records from 'spy files' probe "In the case of the Nashes, the city earlier had acknowledged that officers in the department's intelligence bureau improperly spied on the couple, whom officers labeled as "criminal extremists." CopWatch monitors Denver officers and their behavior."

    Patrick... I don't agree with you often, but I'm all for Copwatch and goose = gander here. I seem to recall NYPD smashing journalists' and bystanders' cameras duing the RNC demonstrations where the cops were acting quite belligerently against peaceful protestors and citizens and didn't particularly want that documented. A case can be made that after Rodney King and Abu Gharib (or even Bull Connors on that bridge with the dogs and firehoses), a picture of cops or other authority figures behaving badly is worth 1,000 words. As far as demos, it's assumed they're taped. I'd rather have that than the fascistic suppression of free speech that the NYPD did at the RNC convo.

    Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: NYPD Videotaping Prote (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 04, 2006 at 09:23:59 PM EST
    Evidently the protesters are not the only ones complaining about being videotaped.
       Meanwhile, officers from a special unit videotaped their faces, evoking for one demonstrator the unblinking eye of George Orwell's "1984." "That's Big Brother watching you," the demonstrator, Walter Liddy, said in a deposition.  Mr. Liddy's complaint about police tactics, while hardly novel from a big-city protester, stands out because of his job: He is a New York City police officer. The rallies he attended were organized in the summer of 2004 by his union, the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, to protest the pace of contract talks with the city.  Now the officers, through their union, are suing the city, charging that the police procedures at their demonstrations - many of them routinely used at war protests, antipoverty marches and mass bike rides - were so heavy-handed and intimidating that their First Amendment rights were violated.
    Emphasis mine link