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SOTU and Line Item Veto

I'm at a Judges/Journalist conference in Reno. During a break, one of the judges asked me why no one is writing about President Bush's mention of the line item veto in his speech last night. It's another unbridled attempt by him to grab power from the legislative branch.

I was struck by his comment on the equality of the two branches of government, the executive and the legislative. Was his omission of the judicial branch intentional? The three branches are co-equal. So many things Bush has done has been in an effort to reduce the oversight power of the judiciary.

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    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 11:10:33 AM EST
    wow, GW's mention of it last night is already in Wikipedia. Which reference explained that most of our governors have line-item veto power as did GW's predecessor, Bill Clinton, who used it 82 times. Those who support the concept feel that it helps stop pork-barrel spending - the gov/pres can strike out pork that's added to bills. Regardless, it definately is a power issue, as TL points out, and is a power that most states and both our previous and current presidents feel the chief executives should rightfully hold. I kinda like the idea myself.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#2)
    by Linkmeister on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 11:19:02 AM EST
    Maybe because the Supreme Court ruled the Federal version of it unconstitutional in 1998 or thereabouts?

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 11:23:45 AM EST
    Bush regularly uses a version of the unconstitutional line item veto. It is called signing statements, over 500 of them. Because of that practice, radicalized and reframed by John 'torture' Yoo, Bush has the distinction of being the only president never to have vetoed a bill that came to his desk. I guess he just wants more.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#4)
    by ras on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 11:26:04 AM EST
    SUO, The Dems might be projecting here, worried that Bush would cut more of his opponents' pork than that of his supporters. There are pros and cons to a line-item veto. Regardless, it's a political winner, and Dems are now in a bind: if pork is to be a campaign issue, Dems who oppose the veto are gonna lose at the polls. If they support it, they are playing me-too. And the balanced budget under Clinton/Gingrich marks it in the public perception as an effective tool. Bush has largely disarmed Dems on using pork as a campaign issue with his one simple statement. How will Dems demand spending cuts while opposing the very veto that helped balance the budget last time?

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#5)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 11:29:39 AM EST
    Maybe because the Supreme Court ruled the Federal version of it unconstitutional in 1998 or thereabouts?
    Well, alright, there is that little issue... I wonder if there is some version of line-item veto power which would be acceptable to the supremes.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#6)
    by nolo on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 12:12:07 PM EST
    I wonder if there is some version of line-item veto power which would be acceptable to the supremes.
    If they follow their own precedent, probably not. Also, the fact that there are governors who have the power is irrelevant to a federal constitutional analysis, since the power of state governors to exercise a line-item veto depends on the wording of their state constitutions -- not the federal constitution. If you're interested, Wikipedia has a pretty nice summary of Clinton v. City of New York, which is the Supreme Court opinion dealing with the issue.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 12:22:03 PM EST
    Guess this deserves a repost ...
    Posted by pigwiggle January 24, 2006 03:06 PM One senator's view of the judiciary ...
    And I think it is a demonstration of what happens when you have one political party controlling both branches of government. The checks and the balances cease.
    I'll give you a hint; rhymes with Einstein.
    Hmm, they can't get no respect, no where.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#8)
    by mpower1952 on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 12:26:49 PM EST
    Wasn't the line item veto ruled unconstitutional after Reagan tried to get it?

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 12:31:15 PM EST
    According to Wikipedia it was ruled unconstitutional after Clinton did get it. Which, I suppose, would be after Reagan tried to get it...

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#10)
    by roy on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 12:39:27 PM EST
    Democrats still have the opportunity to benefit from the pork-free bandwagon. Probably more opportunity, since Democrats've been out of power for a while and thus haven't been able to push much pork through. A Democrat who claims to support pork reduction and hasn't created much pork lately (due to principle or lack of opportunity) has a big credibility advantage over a Republican who claims to support pork reduction but created a bunch of pork just before reduction became a fad. But it's only helpful to the pols if the voters actually want less pork. I suspect many want less pork everywhere except in their own district. Hint: this is how you remove the small government types from the conservative base.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 12:49:22 PM EST
    Those who support the concept feel that it helps stop pork-barrel spending - the gov/pres can strike out pork that's added to bills.
    Oh please. Does this president pay anything but lip service to the idea of cutting "pork"?

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#12)
    by ras on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:33:34 PM EST
    Roy, Yes, if D's played it right, they could indeed play the pork issue to their advantage, but I don't see much chance of that as it would require some fundamental policy shifts. That said, one never knows.... I do think most people want pork removed. But I also think they intuitively understand the incentive trap that they are in as long as govt is large: they don't want such a large govt in the 1st place, but as long as it's there they have to try to get their share, cuz otherwise it'll just go elsewhere. I think that's why, traditionally, R's do better at winning the presidency than at winning the other houses. With the pres., the voters don't face the same incentive trap and can vote their beliefs more. It's prob also why pork-reform legislative bodies tend to arrive in waves or not at all: there's less pt to sending reformers unless lotsa others do, too.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:59:16 PM EST
    This was smart on Bush's part and the D's are playing it poorly. You are busy arguing the constitutionality and/or hypocrisy and he looks like he hates pork. We all know this is B.S., but you are falling for it. Why not argue instead, with specifics, on how you would cut spending. With specifics, not just corporate welfare, end the war, blah, blah, blah. Then you will win the fight!

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#14)
    by ras on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:12:15 PM EST
    bocajeff, Exactly so. Dems need specific proposals, but I think they are kinda scared to put any forward given the vicious kinda oppo their supporters spit on just about anything specific. That's why we hear them so often limited to platitudes, vague commentary and "bad Bush" opposition, I think, and so few details. The Hard Left purists refuse to acknowledge the impure tradeoffs in life, but you can't do specific proposals without taking those tradeoffs into account. E.G. - don't allow the police to strip-search a kid. But how will you keep drug dealers from then using the kids as the place to stash their stash and dragging the kids more into the drug-dealing world? E.G. - no nuclear power plants, drilling for oil, or unsightly wind farms. So where's the energy gonna come from? [be specific and add up the BTUs, folks, if you wanna reply] And so forth. It is the mark of a serious argument when specific counter-proposals are offered. If Dems can get there, I'd welcome it.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:18:36 PM EST
    Legislative action or NOW constitutional

    The Line item veto, LIV, may have been declared un-constutional but I wonder if there are 2 ways around it. . 1) Legislative action . . 1.1) Specific bill language -- Can the congress pass a budget bill that includes seperatibality language so that on the budget bill they authorize the president to veto any of the thousands of individual items. This would allow the president to effectively not spend the money without perhaps having the suprieme court declaring it un-constitutional. . . 1.2) The WSJ in its Sat editorial "Cured Pork" suggests that even without the Line Item Veto, it would be legal for the president to not spend the money if the 1974 Budget Act were repealed. ===== . 2) Supreme court decision Reguardless, we now have a new supreme court in town, and they might well argue that the Line Item Veto is NOW constitutional. Feel free to fill in your own set of reasons that Stare Decisus (pdf discussion) does not prevent the change in this ruling if the judges want to permit the LIV ===== Note: I am personally against this as it does permit more power in the hands of the president and even more allows to president to reward the representatives he wishes to and punish those who are not in favor. Thus leading to even more Pay for Votes possibilities My solution is to have the federal tax rates adjusted for each state to compensate for the federal budget expenses in the state. Thus if a bridge to nowhere was build in a state, the state's residents would pay for it via increased taxes.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#16)
    by eric on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:40:36 PM EST
    It just goes to show how little memory people have. As mentioned above, the line-item veto was ruled unconstitutional. Clinton used it, and it was struck down. This is a non-starter. Bush and his people know this. They just ignored it to score some political points by implying that he would have cut some of his deficit spending if he *just* had that line-item veto...

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:57:35 PM EST
    If any party, Demo or Repub, worries about a President vetoing line items that they want passed, all they have to do is redo with a 2/3's majority.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#18)
    by ras on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 03:27:21 PM EST
    eric, You might have missed Mike's comment, immediately above yours. Mike, thx, you summarized nicely some of the other options available. In the meantime, Dems can argue that "it'll never be possible, never" while R's argue the opposite, that "where there's a will, there's a way" and continue to push for a structural form that can lower spending and reduce pork. And we'll see which the voters prefer.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimcee on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 04:03:14 PM EST
    Mike Liveright, Your suggestion is interesting regarding adjusting federal tax levies but I think that that would be unconstitutional under federal law. Something about equal justice or whatever. But again the federal tax laws do allow one to deduct (in a manner of speaking) state and local taxes. So perhaps your idea has merit and is constitutional. It couldn't hurt to run it through the political meat-grinder.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#20)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 04:31:32 PM EST
    And so forth. It is the mark of a serious argument when specific counter-proposals are offered. If Dems can get there, I'd welcome it. ras, I am serious in asking you these questions: 1. Have you become an American citizen? 2. If not, why would you "welcome it"?

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#21)
    by ras on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 04:45:24 PM EST
    John Mann, American politics can affect and influence events elsewhere. If the American economy sneezes, for example, Canada catches a cold, which is where I have a vested interest in the US staying in good economic health and this segues into line-item vetos & other measures. There's also just general interest, of course. I like most Americans and wish them well.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 05:18:39 PM EST
    Here is a good article regarding signing statements, Bush's use of them and how they can function much like line item vetos. Above I got it wrong. Here are the numbers
    According to Cooper, by the end of 2004, Bush had issued 108 signing statements presenting 505 different constitutional challenges.
    These statements tell his subordinated how he expects the law to be carried out. The McCain torture ammendment was clear. Bush added on a statement that makes it unclear which allows things to happen like we saw at Abu Ghraib. He does not care about whether the confusion goes to court. He cares that his underlings break the law because he is the president and they must do as he says. Law is theoretical, this is about practice. link via war & peace

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#23)
    by John Mann on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 06:24:12 PM EST
    There's also just general interest, of course. I like most Americans and wish them well.
    Thank you, ras.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#24)
    by ltgesq on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 07:44:26 PM EST
    If bush wants it, it will be constitutional. Once a democrat is elected, the line item will be unconstitutional. The conservative court is the most blatently political entity in the country, as should be obvious to anyone after Bush v. Gore.

    Re: SOTU and Line Item Veto (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 08:44:46 PM EST
    An acceptable line-item veto? It would require a constitutional amendment from the very people it is designed to control. Ain't gonna happen. They really don't want to allow the president the ability to crush the whole reason members of congress get re-elected--spending in the district.