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Another Bad Idea

By TChris, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 08:37:12 AM EST
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by TChris

From time to time, laws are proposed (and sometimes enacted) that prohibit drivers from talking on cell phones while they drive. Never mind that talking on a cell phone is no more distracting than fiddling with the radio or typing addresses into a GPS navigation system, or pushing the dog away or arguing with a passenger. Laws against unsafe driving (reckless or inattentive driving) already address cell phone usage (as well as any other distraction) that actually prevents an individual driver from driving safely.

Calls for cell phone bans are fueled by stories like this one, where a 19 year old was arrested for reckless homicide because he struck a child while -- according to initial reports -- he was text messaging a friend. When the truth finally replaced hysteria, it turned out that the driver finished text messaging about a minute before the accident. And it appears that the child fell or moved back into the path of the car, after successfully crossing the street, in response to the shouting of his uncle's girlfriend. Despite the outrage of the understandably upset relatives of the child, there's no basis for their criticism of a grand jury that refused to charge the driver with a crime. And there's no need for laws that categorically prohibit drivers from using their cell phones.

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    Another Bad Idea | 33 comments (33 topical)
    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#1)
    by Patrick on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:18:55 AM EST
    Well, there you go, T-Chris and I agree on something. In fact we should go through all of our laws and chuck the useless, unenforced ones out.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:22:30 AM EST
    As a lawyer you should know that single cases make bad law. Here is a case from the other angle: Driver on phone just before fatal This is a search page on the Royal Society for the Prevention of accidents, RoSPA, with plenty of evidence for the dangers of phone use, hand held and hands free. UK law current prevents the use of hand held but hands free may be, this recognises the problen of physical disturbance and ignores cognitive disturbance. This law is widely ignored, as was the safety belt law when it was first introduced. Tell me, who here does not routinely belt up when they get in a car these days? Who only belts up when they are in a front seat?

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#3)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 10:09:19 AM EST
    Hell has frozen over, I agree with TChris on something!

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 10:36:24 AM EST
    In fact we should go through all of our laws and chuck the useless, unenforced ones out.
    Amen Pat...I'd suspect our society could run just as smoothly without half the laws on the books. So many, such as cellphone bans, are passed in haste and are totally useless. The cynic in me thinks laws such as this are just another form of taxation/extortion. Behavior taxes, if you will. One heck of a money maker for cities, states, and municipalities.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 10:42:22 AM EST
    Maybe there shouldn't be a law against talking on cell phone while driving, but 19 yo old and talking on the phone? No Way! Sorry, but if I was driving down that road (I'm 41 with 20 years of driving experience) I would be aware of a child near the road and would have slowed to a crawl. In other words, the kid would still be alive. Driving is a privilege! 19 yo's are not experienced enough to be driving with friends, listening to the radio or talking on cell phones. They don't yet understand the dangers of driving. I think drivers should be given restricted licenses for the first three years of driving that don't allow cellphones, radios or passengers (unless it is an adult with driving experience) in the car with new driver.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 10:57:05 AM EST
    Andy, You obviously did not comprehend TChris's post and you helped further his point regarding the legislation of laws that ban the use of cell phones while driving. He should personally thank you.
    Laws against unsafe driving (reckless or inattentive driving) already address cell phone usage (as well as any other distraction) that actually prevents an individual driver from driving safely. ...there's no need for laws that categorically prohibit drivers from using their cell phones.
    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:12:53 AM EST
    Macro, maybe, I didn't obviously understand his post. But perhaps, you have missed my post. There were obviously not any laws on the books to prevent the death of a child from a 19 yo kid distracted while driving by text messaging on his cell phone. Even if he sent it one minute before he ran over the child. Most drivers would have been aware of a child near the raod and slowed down appropriately. This driver did not. There should be laws assuring that children do not have to be put in danger of such drivers. That is what laws are for.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#8)
    by Patrick on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:15:37 AM EST
    Andy, While you are almost certainly right, this law and many like it are virtualy unenforceable. What I would support is stiffer penalities if an accident is investigated and deemed to have been caused in part or wholey by distracted driving. While the situation used to support the law is tragic, it was an accident. This same 19 year old could have been in the same situation purely because of lack of experience. I doubt that is much consolation to the family of that poor child, but laws like this will not stop something like that from happening again.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:21:49 AM EST
    I do not have a cell phone, so I have no vested interest in arguing the benefits of using one while driving. Having said that, it is useful to call an ambulance after getting in an accident. In terms of getting his as a pedestrian in NYC 90% of the near misses I have experienced are from people yaking on the phone and not seeing a stop sign etc. When I am a passenger in a taxi, the drivers, who are always on the phone, often overshoot my destination because their attention is at 25%. I think that cellphones use in a car does increase accidents. Perhaps some people are unaffected and drive the same while on the phone, but some clearly do not and there is no way to separate them out from the pool of drivers.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:30:34 AM EST
    Most drivers would have been aware of a child near the raod and slowed down appropriately. This driver did not. There should be laws assuring that children do not have to be put in danger of such drivers. That is what laws are for.
    So you are saying that a law should be created to protect children from 19 year old drivers that send text messages from a cell phone one minute before they run over a child with an automobile. Interesting... You are wrong. Laws already exist, as TChris stated, that address unsafe driving. No special circumstance law is necessary.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    What I would support is stiffer penalities if an accident is investigated and deemed to have been caused in part or wholey by distracted driving.
    Patrick, This is the right solution to address the issue. I would support your solution as well.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:41:17 AM EST
    Macro, Oh, stupid me, I didn't realize there were laws addressing unsafe driving. That is not the point and you know it. One of the purposes for making laws is to protect the public. Dangerous driving practices are a hazard to the public. We, as a society, have proven capable of being imaginative enough, in many instances, of creating laws to make the public safer. Now, you can argue that banning cellphone use while driving is not going to make us safer. I might disagree, but I can understand your point. I argued for a restricted license for new drivers. Look at all the unnecessary deaths each year around high school graduation as inexperienced drivers load their friends in a car and drive off the road. A restricted license would make it illegal to drive with a cell-phone and other distractions (friends, radio, etc.). Drivers who get certain violations may also have to have a restricted license. A law such as this could make us safer and would be enforced by heavy penalties for violating restrictions. I argue that this would be a law that would make the public safer.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#13)
    by Lora on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 12:01:04 PM EST
    Mininum driving ages, speed limits -- all these are specific laws designed to make driving safer. Laws should not be written as an emotional response to a single tragic occurrence, but if a driving practice can be shown through research to be implicated in accidents, then, there ought to be a law.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 12:17:07 PM EST
    Oh, stupid me, I didn't realize there were laws addressing unsafe driving. That is not the point and you know it.
    No, that is exactly the point.
    One of the purposes for making laws is to protect the public.
    And your proposal for a law that, "... would make it illegal to drive with a cell-phone and other distractions (friends, radio, etc.)", as Patrick has stated, would be virtualy unenforceable and would not protect the public anymore than the laws already in existence to addressing unsafe driving.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#15)
    by chemoelectric on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 12:24:59 PM EST
    I thought there was a quota legislatures had to meet, in number of new pages of laws per year. So, just imagine what they could be printing on paper if not distracted by this sort of thing. No?

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 12:57:48 PM EST
    I argue that this would be a law that would make the public safer.
    It would also discriminate by age with no connection to actual driving ability. Personally, I'll take those reckless teens over the elderly on the road anyday, at least they have their wits about them. But even I wouldn't support new driving laws that discriminate against the elderly...laws against reckless driving are enough. As I always say...human beings were not meant to travel at 70 mph in hunks of metal and plastic. It is an inherently dangerous activity. If you're looking for safety, I suggest walking...but watch out for the cracks and the curbs, you could break your neck!

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#17)
    by Patrick on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    I didn't expect this issue to be so contentious. Andy, The restrictions for driving at night (or during certain hours) and carrying occupants under the age of 21 without a parent or guardian already exist in my state, and they are reasonable, albeit very hard to enforce, because they are difficult to detect. A person of 19 years of age could have had his license for more than 3 years and as such would have already completed the "Provisional" restrictions time period on his license. He's 19, he's and adult, and he has to live with the fact that he killed a child. Another law or more restrictions won't stop a tragedy like this from happening again, and that is the goal of the law making in this case, no?

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    There are many laws that descriminate by age. The drinking age is one obvious that comes to mind. There are also state laws that enforce mandatory license renewals and checks based on age to us from the elderly. To say that the elderly cause more accidents leading to fatalities than teens or young adults would be a fabrication. Macro, Forget it!

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:14:00 PM EST
    Macro, Forget it!
    Forget what? You make no compelling argument for your proposed legislation because it is nothing more than "feel good legislation". Patrick explains this best when he states:
    Another law or more restrictions won't stop a tragedy like this from happening again, and that is the goal of the law making in this case
    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:18:31 PM EST
    "feel good legislation"
    It's more than that macro...it's a revenue source. A free American makes a cell phone call while driving and has to pony up a c-note to the state, whether he/she was reckless or not. 5 such tickets a day, thats over 182k a year. Add another hundo for no seat-belt, another for expired tags...you get the picture. It's all about the benjamins baby.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#21)
    by Patrick on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:28:22 PM EST
    It's all about the benjamins baby.
    Kdog, That may in fact be a motivating factor behind the required enforcement of some laws, but I doubt the average citizen looks at it that way when they decide whether or not they support a specific law.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#22)
    by Johnny on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:33:22 PM EST
    No unwanted behavior has ever been legislated out of existence. That being said, the next best thing is to collect revenue off of laws the state knows will be broken.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:34:39 PM EST
    Perhaps Pat. But I'm not the only one who sees a lot of misdemeanor type laws as nothing more than a way for the state to seperate you from your money.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 02:24:44 PM EST
    Kdog.. a lot of misdemeanor type laws as nothing more than a way for the state to seperate you from your money. I agree 100%.... The REAL problem here is a vast majority of people behind the wheel have all they can handle just driving their car! Put any kind of other distraction in front of them and you're asking for trouble. I'm in the 'cell phone' business and I hate to see these stupid laws.... When I see someone glued to their phone and driving worse than they would be normally....I just simply hold up my "Hang up & drive" sign when I pass them up.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 03:11:01 PM EST
    I haven't read all of the posts in full, but I have to tell you I completely disagree with TChris on this one, and apparently most others. Pushing a dog away, yelling at your kid in the back seat is a (hopefully) quick distraction. Driver distraction is the leading cause of accidents. People talk on cell phones for much longer than a few seconds. I bet all of us have sat behind cell phone users well after the light has changed. We've seen them drift across lines and miss red lights. If 'unsafe driving' was enough, we wouldn't have drunk driving laws. (And boy could I debate those;-) Since I do research in this area, I'd like to point out how the visual centers of the brain can be shut down while the auditory, (or olfactory, or tactile) part is engaged. Think of it as a processor, if you are concentrating on one thing, the other system calls lose cycles. Sure I see folks putting on their makeup, eating, drinking coffee even READING the newspaper, occasionally, but I see cell phone driving in over 10% of the cars. Regarding GPS programming, my friend's Euorpean car locks out all te programming functions once the car is in motion.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#26)
    by Patrick on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 03:42:20 PM EST
    Sailor, You got me thinking. Here's a pretty good summary of cell phone use and driving. I hadn't thought about the current cell phones taking and sending pictures, surfing the internet, etc. Still don't think it's the solution though.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 04:01:26 PM EST
    Is there that much of a difference having a conversation on the cell or with a passenger? I don't think so. And as to cellphones taking up one hand, most people drive with one hand anyways, at least those with automatic trannys. Trying to legislate your way to safety when no such safety exists is silly to me.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimcee on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 04:40:15 PM EST
    Not owning a mobile phone I'm probably prejudiced against those that yak and drive. I personally have been driven off the road, tail-gated and involved in a fender-bender by folks too involved with thier conversations to care about those other people in the driving world. The person who actually caused the fender-bender got out of his car still talking on his phone as if that was the only thing that mattered and he had to be asked by the police officer (who happened to be right there at the time) to hang up! No, these laws are silly because who would think that one would have to legislate common sense? I've seen the newspaper/eggamuffin driver, the lady on a mobile while using her lap-top while cruising at 65mph in a semi's blindspot for 4 miles. And people here wonder how anyone could support capital punishment? (sarcasism alert!) We don't need laws to stop people from talking and driving just more common-sense and courtesy amongst those who drive. As Patrick has said the police don't need more silly laws to try to enforce. Oh, by the way the fella who caused the accident and wouldn't hang up was written up for talking on his cell and driving and that was OK by me. NYS doesn't allow "'jivin' and drivin'".

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 05:13:59 PM EST
    The law, when I lived in Italy was/is no talking on the cell phone by the driver while the vehicle is moving. Of course I would be tearing down a mountain road and round a corner and there would be a car stopped in the middle of the road with the driver jabbering away on their cell phone. I actually agree with Tchris once about getting rid the the bad laws, starting with gun laws of course, but on the other hand, I think most cell phone conversations are more distracting than say, someone turning around and yelling at the kids for a second.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#30)
    by roy on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 05:18:56 PM EST
    Sailor's point about DUI laws is bang-on, but TChris has simplicity on his side. I propose a compromise: don't ban driving while talking on the phone, ban wearing a seat belt while talking on the phone.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#31)
    by Sailor on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 05:26:41 PM EST
    Is there that much of a difference having a conversation on the cell or with a passenger?
    Yes, the passenger is in the car with you, so in almost every case, you are subject to the same visual stmuli. And how many times have you pointed out to the driver that the light has turned green or (heavens!) red ? Passengers with an elevated alert status (e.g not in charge; bored; they know your driving habits;-) can extend drivers' awareness. Cell phone drivers are much easier to spot than drunk drivers or the sans-a-seatbelt folks. We institute checkpoints for those scofflaws, why not pull over a driver with a cell phone? As far as more workload for cops; in my town, if they'd put down the cell phone they'd have plenty of time to pull over the other folks talking on them. (Sorry Patrick, but we know how our experience differs;-) As for just another law ... I agree, we have way too many laws, way too many legislators who justify their existence with passing more laws, and way too many lawyers. I'd be oh so happy to trade this law for repealing all the laws that further criminalize acts that are already against the law.

    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#32)
    by Al on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 11:30:39 PM EST
    Actually, studies show that driving while speaking on a cell phone is as dangerous as drunk driving. See this study for example, where both drunk drivers and cell-phone drivers were tested on a high-fidelity driving simulator. The authors conclude:
    In fact, when controlling for driving difficulty and time on task, cell-phone drivers may actually exhibit greater impairments (i.e. more accidents and less responsibe driving behavior) than legally intoxicated drivers. These data also call into question driving regulations that prohibit hand-held cell-phones and permit hands-free cell-phones, because no significant difference were found in the impairments to driving caused by these two modes of cellular communication.
    Re: Another Bad Idea (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 06:42:12 AM EST
    Try driving in the DC Metro area, where every other person on the road is yakking away on their cell phone to the point that they don't use turn signals, can't stay in a lane, and often fail to notice that the light has changed, and you might change your mind. Question the issue of safety all you want: I would support a total ban on the simple grounds of common courtesy to those of us who are trying to use the roads as they were intended rather than as mobile phone booths. If your call is that important, pull over. Otherwise, hang up and drive.

    Another Bad Idea | 33 comments (33 topical)