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If a Tree Falls in the Woods....

By Last Night in Little Rock, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 05:08:06 PM EST
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by Last Night in Little Rock

... does it make a sound?

When 3,000 miners in China die in their coal mines, does it make a sound?

Not in the U.S., hardly ever. Yet our economy helps drive their need for electricity to produce. But, a coal miner's life is cheap in China, or so some Chinese think.

Condemned prisoners in China die at a rate of over 2,500 a year, according to Amnesty International, and they are shot in the head so their organs can be harvested.

And, at the rate we are going, with President Bush borrowing so heavily from China to finance the War in Iraq on tax cuts, they will own us someday soon.

The rich in China will, not the dead poor miners.

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    If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... | 13 comments (13 topical)
    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 12:27:06 AM EST
    But wait, we can't do anything about this. The global economy cannot be controlled or made humane, it must run amok at it's own free market pleasure. We can't possibly have any positive influence on the Chinese. We have to lower ourselves to China's standards so we can compete with them. More coal miners have to die here then, that's the only way to keep up. Lord help all the manual laborers out there.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#2)
    by john horse on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 03:47:31 AM EST
    The lives of coal miners don't mean much here in the USA either. The Bush administration has cut 170 positions from the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) and has not proposed a single new mine-safety standard or rule during its tenure. So whats this got to do with the coal miners of China? Well, as the IWW slogan used to go "An injury to one is an injury to all."

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 06:14:50 AM EST
    Let me see - We are not supposed to worry about evil regimes in the ME, radical moslem terrorists.... But coal miners in China? Dying because we buy Chinese products? Good grief.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 06:26:30 AM EST
    Let me see - We are not supposed to worry about evil regimes in the ME, radical moslem terrorists....
    The usual blatent lie used to set the strawman. Another day same nonsense.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#5)
    by swingvote on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 06:36:52 AM EST
    Dadler, So what would you have us do? How does the United States force China to institute whatever coal mining procedures or rules you would prefer they use? Do we go to war with them to do this? And what if China responds in kind? What if they say that we should follow their practices? Who's right? Also, I provided more of the information you couldn't be bothered to read on the former adminstrations abuse of the IRS powers, as you requested. And incidentally, the answer is "no". If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, it makes no sound.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 12:44:15 PM EST
    Do we go to war with them to do this?
    I don't think war is the answer, but I have often asked why we don't hold our trade partners to our labor standards. Give every nation on earth a choice. Either you mandate by law a living wage, a safe work enviroment, etc. or you can't do business in or with the USA or US owned companies. At least our hands would be clean.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#7)
    by swingvote on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 12:50:41 PM EST
    Kdog, Well, it's a better idea than going to war to force these issues, but it displays a level of arrogance that I thought most liberal "progressives" reserved for accusations about Bush. Who are we to force our viewpoint on the rest of the world? Who nominated us to be the Philosopher Kings who would decide what constitues a fair wage, or acceptable work conditions? Or does none of that matter as long as we can use our economic might screw the little guys out of their fair chance to compete on the world market?

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 05:08:48 PM EST
    It's not forcing our views. It's saying WE won't buy from countries with such abominable worker protection records. And the customer's always right! Unfortunately greed trumps humanism, once again. Sigh

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 05:11:21 PM EST
    Who are we to force our viewpoint on the rest of the world?
    We aren't forcing anything on the world, every country is free to do it their way, you just couldn't trade with us. I'm talking bare bones stuff jpaul. The US would not dictate the specifics. We don't trade with Cuba today for less.
    Or does none of that matter as long as we can use our economic might screw the little guys...
    The little guy is already getting royally screwed internationally. Of course he/she matters, that's what this is all about. Workers in the west are protected by laws and standards, why should companies and countries who do the right thing be at a disadvantage to the exploiters? Everyone would suffer in the short run in an embargo, but I think the millionaire sweatshop owners and such would quickly get up to snuff when they are denied the access to our market. And then the lives of millions of people would be improved and our country could prove sincere in being an example of freedom, democracy, and social justice throughout the world.
    but it displays a level of arrogance that I thought most liberal "progressives
    I guess I'm not a true liberal progressive. I try to make up my own mind and learn from all schools of thought. If not wanting my country to be party to inhumanity is arrogance, then I'm glad to be arrogant my friend.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#10)
    by swingvote on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 05:19:44 PM EST
    Kdog, The little guy is trying to make a living, and he's deciding for himself what he is willing to do and how much, or how little, he is willing to take to get there. You want the U.S. government to come along and tell him "Sorry, but we know better and we won't buy from you unless you earn as much, pay as much, or work the same hours, that we do." This is pure protectionist BS. If the coal miners of China want to earn the same rate as coal miners in the U.S. (as only one possible example), they can deal with their employers. For us to turn around and say we won't buy anything made in China that is in anyway dependent on that coal for its production is to say that we don't care that we raped our land and built a country on low wages and hard work, we won't let you do it because that might threaten organized labor in this country, which is all this crap is ever really about. No one here cares about the Chinese coal miner until the coal companies here start complaining about "unfair" competition. You are playing right into the hands of the people you claim oppose. But I did like the Cuba analogy. As if that stupid ban somehow justifies an even more stupid one.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 05:52:45 PM EST
    and he's deciding for himself
    Unless he's in a slave labor camp, for one example. Check out the Human Rights Watch website. Sometimes gruesome conditions jpaul. It is not BS, at least from me. I don't feel it's about protecting the American worker at the expense of the foreign worker, it's about bringing the conditions of the foreign worker nearer our level, or at least to a humane level. Reducing exploitation and slavery, or at least not being party to it.
    they can deal with their employers
    Unless it's illegal to organize or protest.
    to say that we don't care that we raped our land and built a country on low wages and hard work
    Good point. But then we learned the error and the inhumanity of the ways of the robber barons, the ways of slavery and exploitation. We should no longer be party to those ways and allow American companies to profit in such ways. IMO, it is simply wrong. And what of my main point as to the result of such a trade embargo..
    I think the millionaire sweatshop owners and such would quickly get up to snuff when they are denied the access to our market
    Doesn't it seem logical that this would be the result? They need our money as much as we need the tvs, sneakers, and clothing. We buy more material goods than anybody, if a foreign business owner or govt. controlled industry has to give up some profit to labor and production costs to access our market they will. A no brainer, IMO.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 06:17:45 PM EST
    We need to improve here as well. Why not do it all at once? A change in philosophy. I mean, how many brands of Ketsup do we need. It's just a diversion anyway.

    Re: If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimcee on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 07:38:19 PM EST
    Ah, People's Ketchup all around! (When my son was little he used to call French's Mustard people's mustard. He prefered Grey Poupon the elitist b*st*rd he was!) As far as the coal miners forming a union in a communist country that seems a bit redundant. Isn't the whole foundation of the Communist philosphy that it is a Workers' paradise? It sucks when the union bosses also run the mines. Anyway who ever believed that Communism wasn't brutal to those who were subjected to it? Another problem is the kind of coal they are mining. It is a 'brown' coal, not fully developed (it is extremely soft) and the mines that extract it are more prone to collapse. Also when it is burned it not only burns poorly but has incredibly high emissions. It is high in sulfur dioxide and has caused severe problems in areas where it is burned. In some circles it is considered a contribution to global warming. The Three Gorges Project is supposed to allievate some of the brown coal dependence but enviromentalists have a problem with that project. Pressure from the US will do little to change China's labor policies because what we don't buy someone else will. If the demand for Chinese goods drops because of sanctions from abroad then workers in other industries will lose their jobs and create a larger labor pool for the mines and other extraction industries to use. And the cycle will continue, over and over.

    If a Tree Falls in the Woods.... | 13 comments (13 topical)