home

Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Warrantless Surveillance

A new report from Congressional Research Service attempts to answer the question of whether Bush had the legal authority to authorize the National Security Agency to order warrantless surveillance on Americans. CRS is the public policy, independent research arm of Congress.

While the Congressional report reached no bottom-line conclusions on whether the program is legal or not, it concluded that the legal rationale appears somewhat dubious. The legal rationale "does not seem to be as well-grounded" as the Bush administration's lawyers have suggested, and Congress did not appear to have intended to authorize warrantless wiretaps when it gave President Bush the authority to wage war against Al Qaeda in the days after the Sept. 11 attacks, the report concluded.

Tom Kean, Chair of the 9/11 Commission agrees:

Weighing in for the first time on the controversy, he said in an interview that the commission was never told of the operation and that he has strong doubts about whether it is authorized under the law.

Federal law under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, created in 1978, "gives very broad powers to the president and, except in very rare circumstances, in my view ought to be used," said Mr. Kean, a Republican and former governor of New Jersey. "We live by a system of checks and balances, and I think we ought to continue to live by a system of checks and balances."

The Washington Post has more here.

The 44-page report said that Bush probably cannot claim the broad presidential powers he has relied upon as authority to order the secret monitoring of calls made by U.S. citizens since the fall of 2001. Congress expressly intended for the government to seek warrants from a special Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court before engaging in such surveillance when it passed legislation creating the court in 1978, the CRS report said.

The report also concluded that Bush's assertion that Congress authorized such eavesdropping to detect and fight terrorists does not appear to be supported by the special resolution that Congress approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which focused on authorizing the president to use military force.

"It appears unlikely that a court would hold that Congress has expressly or impliedly authorized the NSA electronic surveillance operations here," the authors of the CRS report wrote. The administration's legal justification "does not seem to be . . . well-grounded," they said.

CRS does not make its reports available to the public, but members of Congress are free to publish them on their own sites.

With its $80 million budget and 800 employees, it issues about 3,000 briefs, reports, short issue papers and longer position papers per year.

An arm of the Library of Congress, the Congressional Research Service is renowned for its non-partisanship and in-depth analysis, but it does not make its reports available to the public. However, it cannot prevent members of Congress from giving them out individually and some government agencies from posting reports they find relevant. Perhaps 1000 have become available on the web.

[Graphic exclusive to TalkLeft.]

< Jose Padilla Update: Bail Hearing Thursday | FBI Sued Over Cozy Relationship With Hit Man >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#1)
    by roxtar on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 03:23:31 AM EST
    The conclusions of the report are both stunning and damning, while at the same time being utterly predictable. In other words, about what you'd expect to find in the Friday Night News Dump. Bush's best way out is to acknowledge that reasonable people can come to different conclusions and suspend the program pending judicial review. But the principle of president-as-king is too dear to his cabal, so that's not likely to happen.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#2)
    by roger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 04:55:49 AM EST
    Roxtar, The problem with this is that reasonable people cannot disagree and still be reasonable. W's argument is pathetic and laughable. Those of us who remember the aftermath of Hoover, Watergate, and "enemies lists" know that Congress was pretty clear on the limits of wiretaps. W didnt just step over the line, he pole vaulted over it.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:26:24 AM EST
    Roger: The problem with this is that reasonable people cannot disagree and still be reasonable. With CRS being as nonpartisan, and as respected as it is, their report underscores the need for a full fledged investigation and judicial determination on the question. This is not a report that should or can be held up by either left as damning or exonerating for Bush. If Gonzales won't appoint a special prosecutor, the congress needs to begin a serious investigation themselves.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:34:07 AM EST
    That should read "by either left as damning or right as exonerating for Bush."

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#5)
    by roger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:36:00 AM EST
    Edger, Gonzalez is one of the main players who needs to be investigated. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to do anything.

    Further confirmation that President Bush is, as John Dean said last month, "the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:45:15 AM EST
    Roger, I know. They're attached at the hip... It will have to be the congress if it's anybody. And this is again, another chance for GOP senators and congressmen to understand that they can be both self-serving in time for this years elections, and be seen as doing the right thing. An opportunity like that doesn't come along often enough for any politician.

    This report will have no effect on wingdom who will a) swiftboat the CRS as non-partisan, but a Congressional organization that is pro-Congress, and b) doesn't matter anyway since article II says King George can do whatever he wants Don't believe me? That's been the Official Congressonal Law Professor View of Ann Althouse. John Yoo, Hugh Hewitt, Glenn Reynolds, Ann Althouse, ... Jebus Ms. Merritt, your profession has some really terrible professors professing it. Where have you gone Professor Kingsfield? Our nation turns it's lonely eyes to you.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:47:33 AM EST
    Charlie. it's a slow process for sure. But the tortoise won the race after all, didn't he?

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:20:26 AM EST
    Teachers teach that knowledge waits Can lead to hundred-dollar plates Goodness hides behind its gates But even the president of the United States Sometimes must have to stand naked. It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)


    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:36:26 AM EST
    It occurs to me that we first heard of this report yesterday. Maybe it will go down in the history books as "Bush's Black Friday"?

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 09:40:51 AM EST
    It's interesting, and I suppose predictable, that PowerLines response so far to the CRS report is to attack, with honey dripping words, the Washington Post as "clever" and "more concerned with attacking the Bush administration than with giving its readers a full sense of what CRS concluded about the legality of the program", and to question the neutrality of the CRS with an amazing statement with which they literally shoot themselves in the foot: "[CRS's] conclusions about how much power Congress has are no more entitled to a presumption of neutrality than the conclusions of researchers and lawyers within the executive branch." Jeezus boys!, we're nearly out of ammo... quick, kill those bright lights and use your last few bullets to shoot the messenger...

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 11:10:51 AM EST
    Lord, I'm sick of this. I get the strong feeling the whitewash is in the making. To me, this report does nothing if it leaves ANY room for Bush to claim legality. And no discussion of motive here? You only go around this kangaroo court for one reason -- you know even THEY won't approve the nonsense you're involved in. If anything is so vital that only Bush and his cronies "can handle" the knowledge, then we are all in very big trouble.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 11:33:24 AM EST
    Dadler, I don't think the report is the beginning of a whitewash. I think if it does anything it provides reasons for congress to want to hear whatever Russell Tice (the ex NSA employee who has offered to tesify under the Whistleblower Protection Act) has to say. The report said it was impossible to determine the legality of the taps without access to classified information surrounding the decision. The conclusion (page 42) of the CRS report begins with:
    Whether an NSA activity is permissible under the Fourth Amendment and the statutory scheme outlined above is impossible to determine without an understanding of the specific facts involved and the nature of the President’s authorization, which are for the most part classified. If the NSA operations at issue are encompassed in the definition of “electronic surveillance” set forth under FISA, it would seem consistent with Congress’s intent that such surveillance must be carried out in accordance with FISA procedures. Although section 109(a) of FISA does not explicitly limit the language “as authorized by statute” to refer only to Title III and to FISA, the legislative history suggests that such a result was intended.
    RawStory thoughtfully provides the full CRS (44 page PDF file) report here.

    But, today's news on John Kerry's involvement with the NSA is a stunner.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    machsplanck, your one liner ads are more dishonest than all of bushco's lies, IMO.

    Secrecy News ... fas.org ... discussed this report and supplies links to other CRS reports as well. They have a useful free list you an sign-on to ... one recent government report showed that Star Trek's opening was patterned to a pamphlet released by the Ike administration.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#18)
    by jen on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 04:35:22 PM EST
    machsplanck, your link says I'm forbiden from seeing it. Is there another way?

    Funny picture. Too bad this entire investigation is not whether or not our government has the intent to spy on Americans, but whether or not it is illegal for the administration to do so in the sole circumstance where they do not get RUBBER STAMP blanket approval by a SECRET COURT.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:21:32 PM EST
    Don't be shy folks, Here is the actual report rather a spinned copy. And this is a nifty quote you won't see on the Left side of the road.
    Whether an NSA activity is permissible under the Fourth Amendment and the statutory scheme outlined above is impossible to determine without an understanding of the specific facts involved and the nature of the President's authorization, which are for the most part classified.
    and from this link which writes and then quotes.
    including the 2002 decision by the FISA appellate court, which wrote:
    We take for granted that the President does have that authority [to order warrantless surveillance for foreign intelligence gathering purposes], and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power.
    Seems like the infamous horse of a different color has shown up, eh? Aint the Internet grand???

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:25:35 PM EST
    yeh you forgot to understand this part
    foreign intelligence gathering


    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:34:13 PM EST
    wrt to PPJ's first citation here's the rest of the paragraph which I'm sure he just forgot to include.
    If the NSA operations at issue are encompassed in the definition of “electronic surveillance” set forth under FISA, it would seem consistent with Congress’s intent that such surveillance must be carried out in accordance with FISA procedures. Although section 109(a) of FISA does not explicitly limit the language “as authorized by statute” to refer only to Title III and to FISA, the legislative history suggests that such a result was intended. The exceptions to the criminal prohibition under Title III, however, are specifically limited to those mentioned within Title III. Even if the AUMF is read to provide the statutory authorization necessary to avoid criminal culpability under FISA, it does not necessarily follow that the AUMF provides a substitute authority under FISA to satisfy the more specific language in Title III. To the extent that any of the electronic surveillance at issue may be outside the sweep of FISA or Title III, Congress does not appear to have legislated specifically on the subject, nor, by the absence of legislation, to have authorized or acquiesced in such surveillance.


    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:45:12 PM EST
    Here is the actual report rather a spinned copy...And this is a nifty quote you won't see on the Left side of the road. Jim, it helps make you look less foolish if you read the thread first. Look up, look waaaaaayyyy up. January 7, 2006 12:33 PM in this thread.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:08:04 PM EST
    Gee, the bushlackeys at Powderlines defend violating the constitution. What a surprise. All hail King george. And may your gorge rise with him.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:31:09 PM EST
    SD - Providng a link is hiding nothing. Read it. et tu, Sailor BTW You know it appears to me that a reasonable person would think that we are being "due processed" to death. And if not that we should duck everytime we here Probable Cause uttered.
    Among Moussaoui's possessions was a computer. Minneapolis agents wanted to go into the hard drive to check for contacts or other information. Doing so, however, required that FBI headquarters in Washington apply for a search warrant before a federal judge. Schooled in the latest niceties of contemporary law enforcement, the Washington office responded that there was no "probable cause" for conducting a search. "All you've got is a guy with an expired visa who's taking flight lessons," they said. "Where's the crime?" The Minneapolis office responded that it would be good to find out exactly what was going on before Moussaoui "took an airplane and flew it into the World Trade Center." Their pleas had no impact. Only after September 11th did FBI officials finally look into Moussaoui's computer, where they found information linking him to both the Hamburg cell that planned the attack and to its leader, Mohammed Atta.
    Now I await the many who will thump their chests and claim that it is rank cowardice to try and protect ourselves. But it would be better if they could tell that to the ghosts of those who jumped to their deaths from the towers rather than suffer the agnoy of burning alive. Perhaps those on the Left can understand such utter nonsense. But I can not. I don't think they thought they were dying to demonstrate that the terrorist can attack us because we can't use all our skills to fight back. Of course, because we have been told by the Left, the terrorist are done. We need no protection. Terror is dead.
    Three Algerians arrested in an anti-terrorist operation in southern Italy are suspected of being linked to a planned new series of attacks in the United States, Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu said Friday. The attacks would have targeted ships, stadiums or railway stations in a bid to outdo the September 11, 2001 strikes by Al-Qaeda in New York and Washington which killed some 2,700 people, Pisanu said.
    Ooops.... It appears that someone forgot to tell the terrorists. I wonder how much out NSA operations had to do with this? Well, if it had any, shame on us. We need an SP to investigate the person who viloated these three lovely people's civil rights. Oh God! The Shame! The inhumanity of it! How dare we!

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:48:39 PM EST
    Right.... 9/11... Of course. What else should we expect. Standard rebuttal to everything... you're just not terrorized enough yet to be able to think straight. Nver mind the constitution. After all...it's just a godda*n piece of paper. Never mind the topic of the thread. You're just not "terrorized" enough. What don't you get? Brainwash, rinse, repeat.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:09:44 PM EST
    Now I await the many who will thump their chests and claim that it is rank cowardice to try and protect ourselves. "Give me liberty or give me death" used to be the motto of America's patriots. But now, in the name of patriotism, bushco apologists cast that ideal aside and worship fascism. They claim 'Security' is our paramount concern now and to 'Security' we must sacrifice our highest ideals and fundamental rights. Offering them like virgins to a pagan god in the hope that the demon 'Terrorism' might be kept at bay. This is not patriotism. It is rank cowardice. For what else do you call those who give in to their fears and counsel others to do like wise. --paraphrased from a post by Theo on 15 December, 2005 - 4:48pm

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 10:53:15 PM EST
    Edger "Wars are not won by giving your life for your country. Wars are won by making the other dumb bastard give his life for his country." - Patton So the smart thing is to use every advanatge. Every trick. Every weapon that will increase the chances for your survival. Because the real thing, I believe, for those like you who are always making the "fear" comment, is that you have never been in a siuation where death is possible, or even likely. Because if you did you would understand just how hard those who die fight for life. They do not close their eyes and go quietly. charlie writes:
    Never mind the fact that they did absolutely nothing to address the problem in the days, weeks and months leading up to the attack.
    And now that they are doing things, what do you do besides complain? Proof of success? No successful attacks within the US since 9/11. Will that last? No one knows. But tying our intelligence gathers' hands certainly won't help.

    et al I'm about to write something really dumb, in a vain effort to get the thread off topic. PPJ, let's look at the record, shall we?
    A more direct reason may be found in Colleen Rowley's remarkable letter of May 21, in which the Minneapolis field office's legal counsel notes with dry wit that this is the director's third public position on the FBI's relationship to the tragedy, not exactly a credibility booster. The first line, she notes, emerged almost immediately after the attacks. The assertion was made that if only the FBI had some form of warning, it might have been able to take preventive action. Rowley discloses in her letter that she and her colleagues at once began trying to reach his office in case he was unaware of the arrest and mishandling of the possible 20th hijacker, Zaccarias Moussaoui, in the weeks before the tragedy. When the public line kept getting repeated, she wrote, her office came to the ''sad realization that the remarks indicated someone, possibly with your approval, had decided to circle the wagons ... in an apparent effort to protect the FBI from embarrassment and the relevant FBI officials from scrutiny. Everything I have seen and heard about the FBI's official stance and the FBI's internal preparations in anticipation of further congressional inquiry had unfortunately confirmed my worst suspicions in this regard.'' As details about the bungling of the Moussaoui matter began to emerge, as well as the earlier report about ''Middle Eastern men'' at flight school around Phoenix, the story line changed. This spring, Mueller began claiming that even if the Phoenix tip had been acted on, and even if the French-Algerian terrorist's belongings and laptop hard drive had been searched, the attacks would almost certainly still have occurred on Sept. 11.
    So you think you know more than someone who was the head of the FBI at the time. Interesting.
    The Rowley letter also shows how FBI officials warped truth in order to suggest in news leaks that she concurred in the decision to deny permission for agents to seek a search warrant shortly after Moussaoui's arrest because probable cause was supposedly lacking. The opposite is true, she says and documents. In fact, Rowley recommended to the FBI's legal unit that a normal criminal warrant not be sought, but that the bureau instead seek a warrant available in intelligence cases. Rowley's letter has been characterized a great deal, quoted from briefly, but almost ignored in its detail. In addition to the PR and search warrant points, it makes six others, embellished by additional notes at the end. It is a model of clarity and rewards a visit to Time Magazine's Web site, where the text is available.
    And dragging probably cause into it is valueless, as the FISA does allow for warrantless survellance of American citizens if a warrant to establish probable cause is issued within 72 hrs of the time that the survellence begins. But it would be better if they could tell that to the ghosts of those who jumped to their deaths from the towers rather than suffer the agnoy of burning alive. Stuff and nonsense, PPJ. Along with your futile invocation of the results of the 2004 election, you're just grasping at straws, using the victims of 9/11 as a platform from which to spray your vicious, corrosive c*** about your favorite bogeyman, the Left. Perhaps those on the Left can understand such utter nonsense. Nonsense is when someone thinks that a judge's remarks about the law quoted in a newspaper are grounds for impeachment. You sure gave all the lawyers here a laugh when you wrote that the other day, PPJ. But I can not. Think clearly since 9/11. I don't think Now, that is where you should've stopped, as that would be a truthful statement on your part. they thought they were dying to demonstrate that the terrorist can attack us because we can't use all our skills to fight back. None of us know what they thought, so your speculation is, as usual, vapid and worthless. Also, I didn't know warrentless eavesdropping of Americans is a skill we need to fight back against the terrorists. I wonder how much (sp)out NSA operations had to do with this? And I wonder if you know that nobody here objects to NSA monitoring of foreign communications, as that's WHAT THEY ARE CHARTERED TO DO.
    We need an SP to investigate the person who viloated these three lovely people's civil rights. Oh God! The Shame! The inhumanity of it! How dare we!
    Have a hot bath, Scarlett, and calm down. If you can link to someone here or elsewhere who has said that the NSA should be shut down and that the terrorists need the protection of the 4th Amendment world-wide or we're violating their rights, then bring it on! edger, it wouldn't be the first time that PPJ ignored a link and then linked to the same info in an attempt to 'prove'(must always us the words in quotes when talking about Pick pcik Jimmy) his side of things. Fiddle dee-dee, Melanie!

    Because the real thing, I believe, for those like you who are always making the "fear" comment, is that you have never been in a siuation where death is possible, or even likely. And if any or all of them have, then your speculation is bull****. Your schtick of telling folks whose opinions disagree with your that "you have never been X", or 'you don't remember such and such' is a prime example of what you term "psyco babble". As a rhetorical tool, to borrow a phrase from a favorite TV show of mine, you're "assuming facts not in evidence", which adding any modifiers like "I think" or "I believe" or "I'm certain that you are crazy because you're not bat****-scared of terrorists who'd stampede our women and rape our cattle if we let them." become more, not less annoying, pathetic, unproductive, and as they say in the Gavilan Range "Goddamn wack, Whizzy!". That reminds me you've never spoken out against cattle rape, have you, PPJ? That's very 'revealing', that you haven't condemned a tactic that some people say is what the terrorists intend to do the next time they strike us here in the homeland. I think that I saw it on a blog somewhere, but I know I'm right about it anyway. Now, what possible reason could there be for this omission on your part, PPJ? Why haven't you come out against cattle rape like a good American patriot? We'll be waiting for your answer, and it better be good, young man, or it will be on your permanent record that will follow you around for the rest of your life!

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 03:15:32 AM EST
    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams Ruled by Fear and Love of War


    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 03:46:20 AM EST
    Because the real thing, I believe, for those like you who are always making the "fear" comment, is that you have never been in a siuation where death is possible, or even likely.
    You love to make your ignorant blatant unfounded assumptions, don't you? And you love even more to then use those ignorant blatant unfounded assumptions as if they are established fact as supporting the insulting conclusions you draw from them.
    Because if you did you would understand just how hard those who die fight for life. They do not close their eyes and go quietly.
    You have not a clue what you are talking about here. You have not a clue that were you standing in front of me or most here spewing such absolute nonsense face to face, you'd be suddenly flat on your back with a nose bleed, a black eye, or more serious damage. Just who the hell do you think you are to say such things? Thie bullsh*t you spew is not patriotism. Not even remotely does it resemble patriotism. It is pure, utter, stinking, rank cowardice. For what else do you call those who give in to their fears and counsel others to do like wise. Go home little man. You disgust me, thoroughly.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 07:16:13 AM EST
    SD - Providng a link is hiding nothing. Read it.
    Selectively quoting it to change the conclusion within the paragraph is at best dishonest but one of your oldest tricks.
    Of course, because we have been told by the Left, the terrorist are done
    This is a blantent lie used to set up your strawman argument. More typical behavior from the minister of propaganda. You're back to being completely dishonest and therefore irrelevant.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 08:21:27 AM EST
    "On its face, the president's no-longer-secret wiretapping program violates the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The president asserts that on Sept. 14, 2001, when Congress authorized him to "use all necessary and appropriate force" against those connected to the 9/11 attacks, Congress implicitly repealed the act's restrictions on presidential surveillance powers [and that] he has the inherent constitutional power to do anything he deems necessary in time of war, Congress be damned. Suzanne Spaulding, a former CIA assistant general counsel, recently pointed out that this is a bizarre and disturbing legal argument. If Congress' 2001 resolution rendered moot any prior legislative restraints on the president's power to conduct domestic surveillance, or if the president's inherent wartime powers trump congressional control anyway, then why did the administration bother to seek renewal of the Patriot Act? The Founding Fathers included good reasons for rebelling against Britain's King George III: "... (he is) abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our Governments. ..." That's why our Constitution created checks and balances. But that's the Bush administration for you: all checks, no balances. Rosa Brooks - January 8, 2006 Associate Professor University of Virginia School of Law.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 09:03:30 AM EST
    Edger - There's an old folk saying, I think I heard Dan Rather use it one time. You know Dan loved colorful expressions and memos of unknown origin. It goes like this:
    The hit dog always howls.
    Another one is:
    If the shoe fits, wear it.
    You are the one who regularly brings up the latest Leftie talking point. And your point is so transparent it is laughable. You make it time and again. "It is only cowards that try and protect themselves." You then follow with some statement about dying for liberty. Both positions are meant to position those who favor an active position against terrorism as cowards who quiver in fear and those who endorse tactics to detect, defeat and prevent attacks as anti-freedom. That doesn't work because the average person easily understands that 9/11 happened because we were not active, that we ignored opportunities, such as the computer, and because we had ham strung ourselves by such. I guessed that you have never seen death up close because it is unlikely anyone outside of the police or military will have seen violent death in our country up close and personal. I am highly doubtful that you would die a noble death, hand over heart as the ship of fate slips under the waves. That would be a huge exception. Far better to jump ship and swim away to fight another day. Only next time check the luggage of the passengers for a bomb. The people on the ship that you are responsible for expect it and appreciate it. And your confusion over the difference between "soldiers" and "terrorists" has been stated by you, in your own words, just as your anger was shown in your own words when the suggested that I shoot myself. So knock off the noble act, edger. Understand that defense and caution is both necessary and logical. BTW - Neither Henry or Adams fought in the war. Why don't you position them with Cheney? Can you tell me the difference? Darkly - My, my you do rattle on. I again recommend you try a course in logical thinking. BTW – Since you seem to be a Subject Matter Expert on attacks on cattle I think you should further explore the subject, Charlie – No links again. Mostly boring. But this was pretty funny.
    Ya see, ya seem to forget that there weren't any before 9/11 for at least this long a period of time and that 9/11 happened on your boy's watch.
    Hmmm. Can you say USS Cole? How about the ones captured in late ’99 coming across the border with the intent of attacking LAX? Tell me. Have you ever looked at the attacks and timing thereof starting in Dec of ’79? Charlienolinks, you need to educate yourself.

    PPJ: BTW - Neither Henry or Adams fought in the war. Why don't you position them with Cheney? Jim, I know I'm following you OT on this one, but this is so interesting that I can't resist. Patrick Henry was a fightin' patriot! From the Library of Congress, historical documents collection:
    By his Excellency the Right Hon. JOHN Earl of DUNMORE, his Majesty's Lieutenant and Governor General of the Colony and Dominion of Virginia, and Vice Admiral of the same: A Proclamation. VIRGINIA, to wit, WHEREAS I have been informed, from undoubted Authority, that a certain Patrick Henry, of the County of Hanover, and a Number of deluded Followers, have taken up Arms, chosen their Officers, and styling themselves an Independent Company, have marched out of their County, encamped, and put themselves in a Posture of War; and have written and dispatched Letters to divers Parts of the Country, exciting the People to join in these outrageous and rebellious Practices, to the great Terrour of all his Majesty's faithful Subjects, ...it undeniably appears, that there is no longer the least Security for the Life or Property of any Man: WHEREFORE I have thought proper, with the Advice of his Majesty's Council, and in his Majesty's Name, to issue this my Proclamation, strictly charging all Persons, upon their Allegiance, not to aid, abet, or give Countenance to, the said Patrick Henry, or any other Persons concerned in such unwarrantable Combinations; but, on the Contrary, to oppose them and their Designs by every Means... GIVEN under my Hand, and the Seal of the Colony, at Williamsburg, this 6th Day of May, 1775, and in the 15th Year of his Majesty's Reign. DUNMORE. GOD SAVE THE KING.
    Apparently some of the right-wing blogs have been spreading the misinformation about Henry. You should read them with greater skepticism. Their history can be skewed.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 10:04:57 AM EST
    There's an old folk saying ... The hit dog always howls. ... we ignored opportunities, such as the computer, and because we had ham strung ourselves by such. It's absolutly hilarious, while at the same time sad and telling, that you would bring this up in a thread about NSA surveillance. Considering that in one of the earliest threads on Talkleft on this subject, while most everyone else was adamantly defending your right to privacy, and speaking their mind and their OWN thoughts, you were the only person here to become concerned about how to protect yourself from NSA network surveillance: JimakaPPJ December 30, 2005 09:56 AM
    Michael - Is this service very accurate?? Would subscribing to this site be worthwhile? Would it work? (I assume a real sharp dedicatded hacker/designer could break it, but how easy?)
    Michael Ditto December 30, 2005 11:01 AM
    ...I guess that depends on what your level of paranoia is and how cheap you are. :-)
    JimakaPPJ December 30, 2005 02:27 PM
    Thanks Mike. T'm not cheap. Just money disadvantaged. ;-) Edger - Yes, I understand the capabilities, very well.
    Of course, If you've got nothing to be concerned about, why worry? Just make sure you say the right things, spout the right BS talking points, wave your fake patiotism every chance you get, and make all the right noises to keep your big brother/fuhrer happy... After all, that barely noticeable sound is only a godda*n piece of paper being shredded, right? You'll never miss it. And that smell? It's just the rotting corpse of your freedom and rights. Soon the smell will fade, and you'll never know anything died here. Nothing to get yourself all in a tizzy about, right? Yessir, just a godda*n piece of paper... Hell, give 'em a thousand years they can make another one... You figger? What, me worry? Yes, there's an old folk saying ... the hit dog always howls. Have a nice... whatever...

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 10:42:51 AM EST
    "America; first we fight for our freedom, then we make laws to take it away." --Alfred E. Newman --- "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy but that could change." "Is our children learning?" --Dubya

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 11:26:18 AM EST
    Speaking of cowardice, yes there is a reason for the ugly yellow background...

    Somehow I can't help but think I might speak for a few others You got that right for me, charlie, and I won't assume anything about anyone else around here.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 05:00:31 PM EST
    DA, your assumptions are usually pretty good ones. Yours too, Charlie. ;-)

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 05:18:01 PM EST
    If I don't self-destruct Worse things could happen... Occassionally people stop thinking long enough for the repltiles to be convincing. Happened to about 50 million and a few, last November.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 05:24:35 PM EST
    punisher - You know, I never thought of Henry as a military type. Let's see what wikipedia says about it.
    Early in the Revolutionary War, Henry led militia against Royal Governor Lord Dunmore in defense of some disputed gunpowder, an event known as the Gunpowder Incident. During the war, he served as the first post-colonial Governor of Virginia, from 1776-79, an office he held again from 1784-86.
    Perhaps we should consider him as early member of TANG. And he had about the same feeling about the constitution that YOU CLAIM Bush does. Edger - Is it your position that the pursuit of knowledge and understanding about the world around is not good? Why am I not surprised? Edger, you have been caught parroting a Demo talking point, and you have NO defense except to claim that I am fearful? hahahahaha BTW - You knowledge of the Fourth amendment appears to be short ONE word. "Unreasonable." Darkly - My, my, how you do rattle on with your usual attacks. And you are now speaking for the ACLU and judges? Who would have thought it. charlienolink - Count against your grade? Heck, you can't even claim to have monitored the class. And what I have ever linked to is hundreds more than someone who doesn't know how to link, or has no opinion except what he reads. And why bring up Clinton? I didn't. And you're the one that asked the question. What's the matter, charlienolink, didn't you like the answer? Boy, are you easy. Now what sports did you play in high school? BTW - I think you will find that a country's warship in another country's harbor is considered the same as the war ship's embassy. i.e. It is the US.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 05:41:26 PM EST
    Translation: ;as^?/"", :{ C+|% and $Fxyt*, !nyuk mrrrph! Vj&% sakes, vh78k# %%%8 8$*&()!!! ***!! So there!

    PPJ: Perhaps we should consider him as early member of TANG. Jim, silly :) PPJ: And he (Henry) had about the same feeling about the constitution that YOU CLAIM Bush does. According to Wikipedia:
    After the Revolution, Henry was an outspoken critic of the United States Constitution and urged against its adoption, arguing it gave the federal government too much power. As a leading Antifederalist, he was instrumental in the adoption of the Bill of Rights to amend the new Constitution.
    I won't ask what you think I've claimed about Bush's feelings about the Constitution, I'm pretty sure I've never made any, but anyway it sure seems more like Bush is exactly what Patrick Henry was worried about.

    And you are now speaking for the ACLU and judges? Who would have thought it. Actually, the quote is from pandagon.net I know that you have a hard time telling when a commentor quotes someone else vs. when they say something original on their own, thanks for not showing common sense in this area, as usual. Oh, and according to dictionary.com, rattling is what you've been doing here, so as I said before, projection isn't something that just takes place in movie theaters....... TTFN, Baldrick the Prattler. Punisher, he 'believes' what he said about you, and that's close enough for our prattle boy, whizzy.

    DA: Punisher, he 'believes' what he said about you, and that's close enough for our prattle boy, whizzy. I know. I really like Jim, but he keeps on telling me things about me that just aren't true. Sometimes he's not so great about differentiating reality from fantasy.

    Sometimes he's not so great about differentiating reality from fantasy.
    The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.
    Dr. Who-Face of Evil Sounds like he was talking about Whizzy, doesn't it? ;)

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 08:07:50 PM EST
    A great nation is like a great man: When he makes a mistake, he realizes it. Having realized it, he admits it. Having admitted it, he corrects it. He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers. He thinks of his enemy as the shadow that he himself casts. --Lao Tzu, (abt.551-479 BCE)

    Charlie, please stop reprinting others' comments. Just mention their name, we'll know who you are responding to.

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 11:47:33 PM EST
    Charlie, Maybe I ask bit much of shrub and his followers with that post. We can know what a man or a nation could be, by contrast with what he or it isn't? It was Lao-Tzu's way of describing what greatness requires. Something I see as being lost under Bush. Recoverable too... but probably only without him. So far, "he's 0-everything".

    Re: Congressional Report Doubts Legality of NSA Wa (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 12:06:15 AM EST
    The Art of War was written by by Sun Tzu, a contemporary of Lao Tzu, author of Tao Te Ching; the philosophical basis for Sun Tzu's thought and writing.