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Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Square, 2006

By Last Night in Little Rock, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 02:02:59 PM EST
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by Last Night in Little Rock

Ever been to Times Square on New Year's Eve? Three times here, but not since the 90's. It is a party to remember forever: people you never met before will hug you and kiss you, if you don't mind the fact they may be extremely drunk. New Yorkers are still the finest and, yes, friendliest, people in America.

To get in now, however, backpacks are not allowed, and all bags are searched on the perimeter, blocks away. Just posted on NYTimes.com:

While the party carried on in Times Square, late arrivals waited in long lines to pass through security checkpoints where police searched bags. The crowds were still merging on midtown for the celebration an hour before midnight.

A suicide bomber could get in because patdowns are unreasonable searches, aside from being utterly impractical on 750,000 people, but imagine the deaths (maybe 300) and chaos of 750,000 people panicking? Or would New Yorkers panick? Not necessarily. I don't think so.

bin Laden cost us our liberties, thanks to Americans willing to take privacy (like George Bush, John Ashcroft, and Congress) and others willing to give it up. Me? I'll take my chances with a suicide bomber. I won't live forever. What I have I want without the interference of my government.

I'd rather live free than endure a patdown to do something as American as ride the subway or go to Times Square on New Year's Eve.

[cross-posted with www.FourthAmendment.com]

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    Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Square, 2006 | 16 comments (16 topical)
    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#1)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 10:25:06 PM EST
    I really dont think this is an unreasonable encroachment on freedom considering the potential loss of human life were an incident to take place. Pat downs are certainly far from fool proof but they do to some degree deter potential terrorists (why risk going through a pat down when you might not face one at a mall or sporting event). And by funnelling revelers in a very narrow procession, at least cops are able to catch the demeanor of those entering.
    endure a patdown
    I think thats a little silly and I am sure about 95% of the people in TS now would agree. And puhhlease, if you are trying to make into Times Square at 11, you are a moron, and probably relieve stress by putting flour in condoms.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#2)
    by demohypocrates on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 01:17:40 AM EST
    Telling example of what can be prevented:
    Binamo ordered the three occupants to get out of the taxi, and thought that one, a young man of about 18, seemed suspicious. He therefore ordered the man to remove his overcoat. The Palestinian refused, and Binamo, now more suspicious, took a step or two toward him. At that point the Palestinian blew himself up, killing Binamo and the other two occupants of the taxi instantly. The soldier who was guarding the inspection was seriously injured, and two other soldiers, as well as the occupants of several nearby Palestinian vehicles, were lightly injured. The wounded were evacuated to hospitals for treatment.
    What if this happened in Times Square? What if this man was allowed to walk in unchecked? We would have more deaths than 9/11 because of people being trampelled, but thats acceptable in the name of 'freedom from 5 second patdowns!!!'.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 04:00:16 AM EST
    All due respect, but statistics show that 85% of the people who attend New Year's Eve in Times Square are tourists, so it's not drunk New Yorkers, who have the good sense to stay farrrrrrrrrr away from there as possible, that you're dealing with.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:10:14 AM EST
    You seem to believe that the huge crowds in Times Square would not be a terrorist target. Why? You think that anyone carrying a backpack should just be waved in, no questions asked? You want to wave your hand after your policy is adopted and the first suicide attack takes casualties?

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:41:46 AM EST
    James and Demo, Your logic should lead you to desire patdowns and searches AT EVERY SINGLE PLACE where people gather in large numbers. Are you that afraid of living your free American life? Are you not willing to die right here in your own country ACTUALLY LIVING A FREE LIFE??? Are you more afraid of turning your nation into a fear-based police state than you are of a random terrorist act? Are you? If so, then you deserves neither freedom nor security.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:43:12 AM EST
    oops, that last sentence shoulda been reversed. "Are you more afraid of a random terrorist act than turning your nation into a fear-based police state?" Nothing like shoddy proofreading to ruin a point.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#7)
    by demohypocrates on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 10:12:17 AM EST
    dadler, Way to pilfer Ben Franklin, but whatever. Having tighter security at an event which draws 3/4 million peeps and attracts a viewership of 1 billion is common sense. If you think this means we have have become a 'police state' then you have no sense of perspective or reason.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 10:19:41 AM EST
    Dadler:
    Are you not willing to die right here in your own country ACTUALLY LIVING A FREE LIFE???
    James, Demo: The question you need to be asking yourself is this: "What exactly are the odds of my dying at the hands of a terrorist?" "Life is not risk-free. You have to live your life in the face of constant risks. Your job is to assess these on a scale of probability, and act accordingly." "You know that driving a car carries certain risks. But even then, you still drive your car. Why? Because the benefits outweigh the statistical risks." "Even in 2001, automobile crashes killed 15 times more Americans than terrorism." You have to use you head, of course. And here is the core of the real problem: You have a choice. Live your life, or live your life in fear. Make your choice, for yourself. If you choose to live in fear, go ahead. But there is no need to evangelize it. No one who can think will listen to you anyway. Have a happy, and a free, New Year. Your choice. ----- Well said, Last Night: I'd rather live free than endure a patdown to do something as American as ride the subway or go to Times Square on New Year's Eve.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    Demo, Since when is pilfering from Ben Franklin bad? And if you think the police state reference was only to the Times Square even, then we're not on the same page. I can't BLAME the police for doing SOMETHING that APPEARS to offer security, but you need to face the fact that you can't live in a FREE country without taking personal risks. And Edger is right, this is one of them? Why let them win? Why let them frighten you into thinking patdowns and random searches are GENUINELY going to disuade any genuinely destruction-minded person. It's all the ILLUSION of security. The only REAL security is creating a country that practices what it preaches EVERYWHERE, not just where it's easy and suits are short-term purposes. In short, AMERICA MUST ALWAYS BE BETTER. That is our only hope. Pay our workers more, treat our poor better, take care of our elderly better, don't exploit workers overseas for profit (certainly not necessity), and on and on. The middle east as NEVER been allowed to develop and grow on its own, it has always been, in the last hundred years, either colonized or in a post-colonial state of foreign control. It's time they had the chance to stumble their way to freedom JUST LIKE WE DID. Peace, bud. Have a great new year.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 12:28:16 PM EST
    All due respect, but statistics show that 85% of the people who attend New Year's Eve in Times Square are tourists, so it's not drunk New Yorkers, who have the good sense to stay farrrrrrrrrr away from there as possible, that you're dealing with. 25+ years here in NYC and I have yet to go to Times Square on New Year's Eve and I probably never will.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#11)
    by demohypocrates on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 02:36:55 PM EST
    Edger,
    "Life is not risk-free. You have to live your life in the face of constant risks. Your job is to assess these on a scale of probability, and act accordingly."
    Nobody is arguing against that but it does oversimplify things a bit. Its calculus ignores the magnitude of harm which would occur if that which is feared, transpires.
    "You know that driving a car carries certain risks. But even then, you still drive your car. Why? Because the benefits outweigh the statistical risks."
    I think this is a great example which defeats your point. Drivers have sacrificed a great deal of freedom to make the roads safer - DUI checkpoints, cameras at intersection, requiring seatbelts, etc., all of which have gone a long way towards saving lives.
    "Even in 2001, automobile crashes killed 15 times more Americans than terrorism."
    Some quick googling led me to some stats that about 300-400 die a year in traffic accidents in NYC. More than 2700 died in NYC on 9/11. Forgive me for giving short shrift to nationwide statistics when the threat is omnipresent in NYC and not in Dubuque. Just a guess, but I bet if you polled the people in Times Square the vote would be 2-1 in favor of the patdowns. Just a half million non-thinking fear evangelists who should not be listened to, I reckon. Who is really afraid though, the feller that gets the patdown or the feller who turns tail and whines "you cant touch me" (deliberate snark) Dadler, Agreed ole Ben is a worthy pilferee. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I dont find these searches unreasonable, again given the magnitude of harm were a terrorist act to occur. Fwiw, 30+ years in NYC and not one trip to TS.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 02:51:54 PM EST
    Demo: ignores the magnitude of harm which would occur if that which is feared, transpires. From your own post above:
    He therefore ordered the man to remove his overcoat. The Palestinian refused, and Binamo, now more suspicious, took a step or two toward him. At that point the Palestinian blew himself up, killing Binamo and the other two occupants of the taxi instantly.
    Patdown points are the point at which someone who wants to blow himself up in a crowd will do so. The fact that people are being patted down will not stop him. If he'll just press his button as soon as he's challenged, where do you see deterrent value in patdowns? As Dadler points out:
    Why let them frighten you into thinking patdowns and random searches are GENUINELY going to disuade any genuinely destruction-minded person. It's all the ILLUSION of security. The only REAL security is creating a country that practices what it preaches EVERYWHERE, not just where it's easy and suits are short-term purposes.
    Make your choice, for yourself. If you choose to live in fear, go ahead. But there is no need to evangelize it.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#13)
    by demohypocrates on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:53:36 PM EST
    edger,
    Patdown points are the point at which someone who wants to blow himself up in a crowd will do so. The fact that people are being patted down will not stop him. If he'll just press his button as soon as he's challenged, where do you see deterrent value in patdowns?
    Sometimes I think you are your own worst enemy. In your little fact pattern, the presence of police thwarted our terrorist friend from making it to the middle of Times Square, his attack was blocks away from the greatest concentration of people, and hundreds, if not thousands of lives were potentially saved. As to the deterrent value, I wont argue with you over the psyche of these people, but I dare say that with all things being equal, a terrorist would choose a target with a small police presence and no patdowns over one with a larger police presence and patdowns.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 06:40:39 PM EST
    Well, Demo. What can I say. I guess it just never occurs to you that treating symptoms never cures a disease. If you want to cure a disease you need to start looking at, and doing something about, the causes. Not the sysmptoms. You can treat symptoms forever, which only means you'll have the disease forever and live in fear of the disease always. It's long overdue that we start looking at and removing the motivations for people to sign up as suicide bombers and terrorists. I won't go into ways and means in this post. Those things have been discussed extensively here and elsewhere, and wouldn't convince you anyway. Until you begin to suspect that treating symptoms only means neverending fear and terror your mind will remain closed to them. When you're ready you'll find them yourself, quickly, and with no help from me or anyone else. You have a choice. Live your life, or live your life in fear. Make your choice, for yourself. If you choose to live in fear, go ahead. Have a happy, and a free, New Year. Or not. It's your choice.

    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 06:59:06 PM EST
    Right now I'm watching Will Smith play Muhammed Ali in the movei "Ali". Ali was a Muslim. He was also, arguably, one of the freest men, in many ways, who lived in the past century. How do you think he would have responded to the choice: "Live your life, or live your life in fear"?
    "I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want." "The man who has no imagination has no wings." "The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." "When you can whip any man in the world, you never know peace." --Muhammad Ali


    Re: Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Squa (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 10:12:06 AM EST
    I hear that Randy...I've been a NY'er 23 of my 28 years, I'd never set foot near Times Square on New Years. The main reason for me...too many cops means too many chances to get hassled. And the one thing I want the most on New Years day is to wake up free. demo, jr....do I have to post a copy of the 4th amendment again? Like it or not (I like it!), we have the right to be secure in our persons and effects from unreasonable search and seizure. What is more unreasonable than searching everyone who wants to see the ball drop? BTW...they won't find any bombs, but a couple hundred people will be locked up for their choice of party favors, or for an open container of legal party favors. Happy New Year from central booking!

    Live Free or Die? Die or Live Free? Times Square, 2006 | 16 comments (16 topical)