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Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 05:03:19 PM EST
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Professor Juan Cole of of Informed Comment posts the ten greatest myths of the Iraq War. My favorites:

Iraqi Sunnis voting in the December 15 election is a sign that they are being drawn into the political process and might give up the armed insurgency

Iraqis are grateful for the US presence and want US forces there to help them build their country.

There is a silent majority of middle class, secular-minded Iraqis who reject religious fundamentalism.

The new Iraqi constitution is a victory for Western, liberal values in the Middle East.

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    Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War | 41 comments (41 topical)
    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#1)
    by swingvote on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 05:19:59 PM EST
    Juan Cole has been wrong on the middle east so many times that anything he has to say is highly suspect.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#2)
    by Darryl Pearce on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 05:45:42 PM EST
    The same can be said of the current administration that dwells in the White House and its various minion departments. ...I remain dubious of Dubya.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimcee on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 06:00:19 PM EST
    I would have to agree with most of Prof. Cole's thesis and for the first time in a long time he has demonstrated a level-headed view of the Iraq imbroglio. There really are no perfect moves to be made there and democracy is just that, a democracy. His reference to the IRA/SF is about right although his past pessimism on the whole Iraq situation makes me believe that he is now hedging his bets about the relative success of the Iraq situation. By the bye, has the Professor been to Iraq lately and has he visited with the likes of Iraq The Model and his comrads. If I remember correctly Prof. Cole was rather dismisive of that blogger and presumed that he was an affectation of the Bushies even after 'ITM' visited the US and attended some outtings with other western bloggers. Just asking.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#4)
    by john horse on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 06:04:43 PM EST
    Hey what does Juan Cole know about the Middle East? (sarcasm alert) He is only a Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History at the University of Michigan. He is the editor of The International Journal of Middle East Studies. Recipient of the Fullbright-Hays Fellowship. Current president of the Middle East Studies Association. So please don't read what Juan Cole has to say about Iraq. After all, what could he possibly know that President Bush doesn't know.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 06:17:33 PM EST
    It should also be pointed out that much of prof. Cole's analysis of Iraq has, since the beginning, agreed with the analysis by members of the US War College which was completely ignored by the neocons. They (military analysts) predicted pre-invasion that if reconstruction/occupation was not done correctly then the mess we now see would happen. So the Bush administration doesn't listen to its own experts. As with Bush, his apologists are always dismnissive of experts when they don't agree with their point of view.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 06:22:04 PM EST
    see the following: Reconstructing Iraq: Insights, Challenges, and Missions for Military Forces in a Post-Conflict Scenario

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimcee on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 06:27:49 PM EST
    Has Prof. Cole been to Iraq? And why has he been so dismissive of Iraqi bloggers in the past? If he is such an expert about the Iraqi situation then these are obvious questions that come to mind. And as I ask before can anyone tell me because these questions are not rhetorical and I would like to know.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 07:19:16 PM EST
    SD:
    They (military analysts) predicted pre-invasion that if reconstruction/occupation was not done correctly then the mess we now see would happen. So the Bush administration doesn't listen to its own experts.
    But what if the true intent was to de-stabilize the region, build more US military bases, and (eventually) to increase the power and influence of the US, UK, and Israel and their access to oil supplies? Then maybe Bush (or at least, Cheney) was listening to the experts all along?

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 07:47:01 PM EST
    Cymro Bulls eye! You hit it right on the mark! I agree with you.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimcee on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 07:52:33 PM EST
    Perhaps Bush did ignore his advisors and maybe the War College had a better plan for post-bellum Iraq and it was the same as Prof. Cole's own. But back to his 'Ten Myths' post most of which I do agree with and again it seems more optimistic than the past couple of years worth of his posts. I think he is hedging his bets a bit and if it is because he is well informed on the subject then that is a good thing. After all he is an expert. I have found in the past that he has been most dismissive of the Iraqi bloggers saying that they weren't reliable and has cast aspersions on thier existence. When they toured the US he could have visited with them and he didn't as far as I can tell. Why not? No one has yet answered my question as to has Cole actually been to Iraq since the war began and if he hasn't why not? If I were one of the more reactionary commenters here I would call him an 'armchair quarterback' or whatever the 'chickenhawk' equivalent is for those who have opposed the war but who didn't even travel there to convince Saddam to stop preying on his own people. But I digress. I do agree with most of his assesment and again has Prof. Cole been to Iraq and if not why?

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 07:54:30 PM EST
    Some of Dr. Cole's credentials Cole obtained his B.A. in History and Literature of Religions at Northwestern University (1975), his M.A. in Arabic Studies/History at American University in Cairo (1978), and his Ph.D. in Islamic Studies at University of California Los Angeles (1984). He was the recipient of Fulbright-Hays fellowships to India (1982) and Egypt (1985-1986). Since 1999 he has been the editor of The International Journal of Middle East Studies, and has served in professional offices for the American Institute of Iranian Studies. He was elected president of the Middle East Studies Association in November 2004, term to start in November 2005 Cole is fluent in Arabic (Modern Standard as well as Lebanese and Egyptian dialects), Persian, and Urdu, and is familiar with Turkish. He has travelled extensively in the Middle East. His expertise makes him a constant target of the right. In fact Dr Cole does listen and quote bloggers from Iraq such as Riverbend, Raed in the Middle as well as others, he also has numerous contacts with people living in Iraq. He just doesn't pay much attention to those who are pumping out propaganda. He has in fact published dissenting views on his blog.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimcee on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:20:11 PM EST
    But has he been to Iraq since the War? Simple question but still unanswered.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimcee on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:28:50 PM EST
    Oh and Soccerdad, I've been reading Prof Cole's blog for a long time now and know of his credentials so your just wasting time transcribing them here. And no where in his bio did he ever mention having been to Iraq so how exactly does he know which blogs are propaganda and which aren't?

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 08:55:06 PM EST
    The ones that are propaganda are the ones that are completely contrary to what all his sources including many people who live in Iraq as well as the local newspapers (Iraqi) which he can read say and who parrot what the central command is saying. I don't believe he has been to Iraq since the war but if you have been reading the reports from those who have been, the inability to travel makes it impossible to cover anything in detail. He has given much attention to those who do live there. If you have read his blog then you know the answers to all this so whats your point. There are plenty of first hand sources including blogs which contradict Iraq the model. Who do you know who has more knowledge and first hand experience in the culture and geopolitics of the area, is able to read original sources in Arabic and has as many contacts with people living in Iraq. Clearly you are on a search to find something so that you can dismiss his views. Typical.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#15)
    by Darryl Pearce on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:37:01 PM EST
    But has he been to Iraq since the War?
    Maybe you could carefullly ask your questions before moving your goalposts. Whom are your Middle East experts?

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 05:50:24 AM EST
    And now for some other views on "Juan the Magnificent's" accuracy, from people who are not so easily swayed by tiltes and degrees: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong again. Yeah, I know. It's a he-said, she-said kind of thing. But that doesn't make Juan Cole any more a sure thing than any of these people. Take his word for it if you will; it's your prerogative.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#17)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 06:31:00 AM EST
    Uhh, jp, those links aren't particularly hard-hitting. Just the usual right-wing "get a load of this" quotes at which we're supposed to look down our noses because Juan has a different opinion than some random tool.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#18)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 06:32:11 AM EST
    Nice job on the old ad hominem headfake, though. Worked perfectly, I'm sad to say. This is now a justpaul/Juan Cole thread.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#19)
    by swingvote on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 08:19:17 AM EST
    Scar, I never said they were hard hitting. In fact, I point blank said it was a case of he-said, she-said, and you are left to yourself to decide who you are going to believe. Cole has been shown to have been wrong on the turnout for the first Iraqi elections, he has accused people in the middle-east of being against things they are in fact for, and he still gets cited as the "expert" of choice here and elsewhere by those who buy every accusation he makes, even though his own knowledge of the subject is limited to what he had read elsewhere. As for the headfake BS: How typical. Someone posts a comment. The rabid left jumps all over it. And you come along and accuse the original commenter of hijacking the thread. Here's a tip for you, Scar: If you want to change the topic of the thread, post a comment that actually says something instead of sniping from the sidelines as usual.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#20)
    by peacrevol on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 08:33:26 AM EST
    The thing about trying to lump in iraqi sentiment about the US occupation and the war over there is that no matter how the poll is done, it is still flawed. Scores of iraqi people cannot be contacted to be polled, and it really depends on who is asking the question as to what the answer is. I cant say one way or another what the overall sentiment is, but from experiences on the ground in country, I can say that it goes both ways a lot. You may have someone who treats you like you're their hero one minute and then rats you out to insurgents the next. You may also have someone take you in and treat you like family and fight and die with and for you. But overwhelmingly, when we saw people face to face, they seemed happy to see us. Of course, there were some that would throw rocks and spit at US military, but for the most part, the people seemed accepting. That's not to say necessarily that they all were, but you get the idea...

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 09:16:39 AM EST
    justpaul - And if you listed all the wrong beliefs, etc., by those with degrees and titles you could fill a book. The base problem in most cases is that the person in question believes that their expertise in one area transfers over to another area. Doctors are a perfect example. They are probably the most flim flammed people in the world when it comes to stock scams. Pilots are another example. They have a tendency to believe they can fly through any amount of bad weather, and that down drafts and wind shifts don't apply to them when trying to land. A sometimes deadly belief. As for Juan Cole, he obviously is a learned person. How his information base matches reality, I have no idea. If he didn't meet with the Iraqi bloggers, I find that sad and revealing. I do not think he has visited Iraq. Can someone verify? The real difference appears to be that he has an acceptance of the status quo in the ME, and doesn't think we can make a change. For years we practiced that and called it "real politics." It was, and continues to be, damned by the Left. That the Left now protests our attempt to change the ME poses a huge question to their past and present motives. I agree with Jimcee that he is hedging his bets. And that is good news for our side. SD writes:
    The ones that are propaganda are the ones that are completely contrary to what all his sources
    SD, that is so self-serving. Let me re-write that in simple english. Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong. peacervol - Indeed. To think that you can get an accurate poll in Iraq is crazy. But. I think we can all agree that the Iraqi people want us out. I think they want us out when they think they can take over. The Left wants us out, now. And damn the consequences.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 09:23:39 AM EST
    PPJ and Justpaul Juan Cole has published on his site opinions that disagree with him. Has he been right all the time no. But his trackrecord is better than anyone else I know. He also references other people who disagree with him and as a hard example gave Helen Cobbain space as well as references to her work when she disagreed with him. As PPJ so clearly points out the right considers any opinion just as valid as anyone elses and demonstrates repeatedly the far right's hatred of experts, science, and the enlightenment. So whats your next straw man? I know you got a thousand more.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#23)
    by peacrevol on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 09:23:59 AM EST
    I would imagine most iraqis want us out now. I'm sure they think they are ready to take over, but they are not. I agree that it's not time to leave, but we should be setting up a timetable for withdrawal and i dont know if that's being done or not.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 09:25:11 AM EST
    The real difference appears to be that he has an acceptance of the status quo in the ME, and doesn't think we can make a change.
    Not at the point of a gun.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 09:26:53 AM EST
    but we should be setting up a timetable for withdrawal and i dont know if that's being done or not.
    We are never leaving.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#26)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 10:09:20 AM EST
    We are never leaving.
    Correctomundo.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#27)
    by peacrevol on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 11:01:43 AM EST
    We are never leaving.
    That's probably right. But hopefully we wont be a military/police force for much longer. I would like to see us able to work as allies with the iraqis soon and only be there as peaceful diplomats and let them run their govt the way they see fit.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 11:04:14 AM EST
    we should be setting up a timetable for withdrawal and i dont know if that's being done or not
    What do you think? "Iraqis do not support an indefinite occupation and neither does America." --George W. Bush, April 13, 2004 "People need to get realistic and think in terms of our presence being in Iraq for a generation..." --Dewey Clarridge, Former CIA chief of Arab operations
    The fabled "exit strategy" may be not to exit. "The operational advantages of U.S. bases in Iraq should be obvious for other power-projection missions in the region." --Thomas Donnelly, AEI policy paper.
    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 11:39:40 AM EST
    I'm of the opinion there never was an exit stategy. Iraq is a "profit center", if you will, for certain well-connected corporations. A place to use weapons stockpiles so they can be replenished, a place for reconstruction contracts, a place for favorable oil deals. And if tens of thousands of people are killed or maimed...oh well. It ain't their kids! We will have a military presence there to ensure those profits for generations.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#30)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 12:53:03 PM EST
    As for the headfake BS: How typical. Someone posts a comment. The rabid left jumps all over it. And you come along and accuse the original commenter of hijacking the thread.
    A substance-free general disagreement, posted at the very top of a thread, is the usual pattern for trolling, do you disagree? Your "rabid left" comment indicates that you're just trying to get a rise out of people. I see no merit here.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 01:17:26 PM EST
    SD writes:
    As PPJ so clearly points out the right considers any opinion just as valid as anyone elses and demonstrates repeatedly the far right's hatred of experts, science, and the enlightenment.
    As usual, a blatant misstatement of the facts. My point was that experts get into trouble when they start thinking that just because they have a great deal of knowledge in one area, that they are qualified in all areas. It is often times called the “God Complex.” Please SD. Take an extra 30 seconds and READ before typing.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#32)
    by swingvote on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 01:33:57 PM EST
    Scar, I took issue with whether Cole is worth paying any attention to at all, an issue which seems to resonate with a fair number of those posting comments here based on the response. The fact that YOU don't find that issue of any interest doesn't change anything. As for substance free comments: What have you posted here that has any substance to it all? All you have done is to attack someone else for offering their opinion on what has been posted by the host. These are comments, after all, Scar, not our own little blogs as so many here like to treat them. And if you don't think SD and the like are part of the rabid left fringe, it's most likely because you are out there on the edge as well and share their delusion that you are in fact in the middle. Ted Kennedy must seem like a hardcore conservative from that vantage point. As I noted above Scar, if you don't like where the conversation is going, try saying something intelligent enough to move it to somewhere else. If all you can do is whine about someone "taking over" the thread, (with all of two comments out of 21, mind you), you're not offering much.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 01:41:21 PM EST
    Lounsbury, who blogs at 'Aquol is no lefty, and he called the post in question a fine post. Link He also speaks and reads Arabic, usually lives in the MENA region and he hasn't hesitated to spell out his disagreements with Cole in the past, so I'd say that settles it for me. YMMV.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#34)
    by john horse on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 03:42:16 PM EST
    justpaul For someone who agrees "with most of Prof. Cole's thesis" you sure spend a lot of time trying to throw mud at him. One thing I am getting tired of is the excuse that you don't necessarily believe what they people that you are linking to are saying. Don't you have the ability to make judgements about who is right? For example, lets take the first anti-Cole link that you provided. Per the link, here is what Cole wrote:
    Over 400 Iranian young Revolutionary Guards signed up to commit suicide bombings against Americans in Iraq and against Israelis, at the urging of Ayatollah Husain Nuri Hamadani (al-Zaman). The group included 150 young women. This fatwa is despicable. Israeli civilians deserve to live in peace like everybody else...If the Revolutionary Guards had any courage, they'd fight soldiers face to face, not hide sneakily in cars with hidden bombs.
    Now here is this person's comment about what Cole wrote:
    For a "serious" analyst who can "objectively" implicate American and Iraqi troops in the murder of Shia hostages, this is absurd. Why would any force play to its opponent's strengths? It has nothing to do with courage -- it is a case of applied morality and effective warfare.
    First of all, where does he get the statement that Cole implicates "American and Iraqi troops in the murder of Shia hostages" from since Cole makes no mention of this in the above quote? Maybe you can explain this because I have no idea what this blogger is referring to. Don't you think that suicide bomb attacks against Americans in Iraq and Israelis is "despicable"? Do you disagree with Cole's characterization of these terrorists as cowards? What I find strange about it is that this what Cole said is very similar to what Bush and Blair said about the suicide attacks in London and Madrid. Do you believe that suicide attackers are "moral"? If you think through the logic of this blogger this is one of the most pro-terrorist pieces I've ever read, but I guess this is ok because he is anti-Juan Cole.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 03:52:43 PM EST
    Well, if they want someone's opinion who has not only been to iraq but still lives there: check this out.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#36)
    by john horse on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    The one phrase from justpaul's rightwing blogger that really sticks in my craw is that the suicide attacks are "a case of applied morality and effective warfare." (emphasis mine) If you follow this rightwing loon's logic, the terrorists who flew the planes into the Twin Towers were merely practicing "applied morality".

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#37)
    by swingvote on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 05:34:51 PM EST
    John Horse, What in god's name gave you the idea that I agree with anything Cole is saying? In the future, you might want to be sure who you are responding to before you climb up on your high horse; otherwise you end up looking like the horse's other end, if you know what I mean. And I didn't raise the issue of Cole's veracity to support the right wing nutbars who are opposed to him; I simply wanted to point out that taking this guy at face value is a dangerous choice. He's far from perfect in his judgements and his mastery of the facts is suspect at best.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#38)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 06:04:06 PM EST
    lets do a brief recap JP starts the whole thing with this
    Juan Cole has been wrong on the middle east so many times that anything he has to say is highly suspect.
    When people defend Prof Cole, JP throws us a bunch of links. When challanged by Scar replies
    I never said they were hard hitting. In fact, I point blank said it was a case of he-said, she-said, and you are left to yourself to decide who you are going to believe
    . When challanged by Scar that maybe this was not exactly in depth analysis. JP goes on a rant throwing accusations and scar and even me. Then JH takes the trouble to go through one of the links in detail pointing out how the argument was rather weak. JP response is to imply that JH is a horses behind and then makes this remarkable claim based on absolutely no evidence.
    his mastery of the facts is suspect at best.
    And yet he has criticised the members here of not being able to argue etc/ So JP just managed to deliver a typical far right smear of prof Cole based on no evidence what so ever, and when challanged responds with invectives and simply restating his unsupported accusation as if repeateding it a dozen times makes him right. God what a hypocrite.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimcee on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 08:45:47 PM EST
    john horse, That was me who said I agreed with most of Prof Cole's ten myths not JP. I also read 'riverbend' on a regular basis. As a matter of fact I got a great recipe for a ground beef dish that wasn't half bad about a year ago from her. By the bye, she was a Sunni Bat'thist before the war. I'm not sure what she is now except kind of bitter. Either way it was her kind that buried people in mass graves as a matter of practice. So along with a decent recipe from her one might want to take a rather large grain of salt with her opinions.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#40)
    by john horse on Thu Dec 29, 2005 at 03:55:38 AM EST
    jimcee, Thanks for pointing out my error. For the record, jimcee has nothing to do with the links that jp provided.

    Re: Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Dec 29, 2005 at 01:16:05 PM EST
    Ten myths huh....? Let's see: How about the ones the liberal press keeps pushing #1 - Terrorists attacks are on the rise #2 - We are losing #3 - We aren't fixing any infrastructure #4 - The Iraqi people don't want us there #5 - No traces of any WMD's were ever found. #6 - We are intentionally targeting civilians. #7 - We condone & practice torture as a standard procedure. #8 - Saddam had nothing to do with America being attacked. #9 - He didn't harbor or reward terrorists. #10 - GW lied about all the intellegence reports (& fooled all those very smart Dems) How about those 10?

    Ten Great Myths of the Iraq War | 41 comments (41 topical)