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The (Other) War

By TChris, Section Social Justice
Posted on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 08:58:47 AM EST
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by TChris

The war against Christmas has been waged so clandestinely that only Bill O'Reilly and John Gibson seem to be aware of it. If that undynamic duo were less shrill about their pet peeve, the vast liberal plot to assist the Grinch might go unnoticed.

O'Reilly, Gibson, and the rest of them are supposedly all upset because some people are calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree, some stores aren't mentioning the word Christmas in their advertising, and some people are saying, "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." So apparently, the essence of Christmas is, one, making sure a Christmas tree is called a Christmas tree instead of a holiday tree; two, saying Merry Christmas to people as opposed to Happy Holidays; and three, ensuring that advertisements use the word "Christmas."

Wouldn't it be fair to say that never on behalf of so large and all-powerful a majority has such a frivolous complaint been raised?

A bit of perspective:

First, the present way Christmas is celebrated isn't the traditional way, stretching back to the founding of the country. No, the current commercialized way Christmas is celebrated only started around the 1920s.

Second, the entire movement to use more inclusive nomenclature stretches back decades. It's not a new phenomenon, a new "liberal plot," as Gibson calls it. When I was in high school over thirty years ago, they changed the name from "Christmas break" to "winter break."

Jack Clark, in the linked commentary, provides these additional thoughts about the meaning of Christmas:

Isn't it interesting that if people protest about, for example, racial prejudice or economic injustice, they're labeled by the right as whiners and complainers, but a store not mentioning Christmas in its advertising, now that's worthy of a protest!

...

If a right-winger brings up this issue, I would just ask him or her, "If you're so concerned about celebrating Christmas and acknowledging it, why don't we acknowledge it and celebrate it in a meaningful manner? How about we all agree, those of us who already have more than enough, no gift-giving?" We'll give all our gifts to those who have nothing.

"How about we'll celebrate Christmas by pressuring our representatives in Congress to increase the minimum wage? To fully fund the AIDS program that Bush is so severely underfunding? To fully fund the No Child Left Behind program?"

This whole "attack on Christmas" propaganda campaign would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Every year under George W. Bush, poverty has gone up. Under his tenure, the number of Americans without health care insurance has gone up. Hunger has gone up. All this is from the government's own statistics.

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    The (Other) War | 35 comments (35 topical)
    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Bill O'Reilly and John Gibson are demagogues. Their coverage of the "War on Christmas" is about ratings and keeping their audience thoroughly pissed off at people left of center on the political spectrum.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    How dare they desecrate Santa's birthday!

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#3)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    So apparently, the essence of Christmas is, one, making sure a Christmas tree is called a Christmas tree instead of a holiday tree; two, saying Merry Christmas to people as opposed to Happy Holidays; and three, ensuring that advertisements use the word “Christmas.”
    TChris, I seem to remember some time ago you made some posts, perhaps a whole thread, on which you vigorously proclaimed that we shouldn't call aliens who are in the US illegally "illegal aliens" but, rather, "undocumented workers" or some such. Yet you disparage those who, among other things, diegn to suggest that a Christmas tree should be called, well, a Christmas tree. Curious.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    The Christmas tree is actually a pagan symbol stolen by the Christians for their holiday. We are simply trying to reclaim the original legacy. Your bad.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#5)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    The "war" moniker is overused, but there is a definite movement to secularize everything, despite years of tradition. If you are offended by the terms, use non-offensive terms, but don't infringe upon my right to celebrate traditions in a traditional manner. It's not a holiday tree, never has been, and changing it to accomodate a minority of over sensitive or crusading individuals is silly. It's tyranny of the minority now.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    The Christmas tree is actually a pagan symbol stolen by the Christians for their holiday.
    There you have it. Has no religious connotation whatsoever and therefore insisting it be called a holiday tree is meaningless.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Lab, you funny!

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    I agree with O'Reilly, if you don't like a store saying "happy holidays" DO NOT SHOP THERE. Companies are FREE to pass along holiday wishes as they see fit to their consumers and consumers are free to not shop there. I do find it ironic that in the midst of this argument O'Reilly makes this argument:
    You know, I have a memory of me sitting on my stairs in my Levittown house, four rooms, and looking at this Christmas tree about 5:30 in the morning, my parents were still asleep, my sister was still asleep. And I just stood -- I just sat on the stairs and stared at that Christmas tree with all the gifts underneath. That is one of my earliest memories; maybe I was three, maybe four. OK? And I -- it was such a magical time for me as a child. It was just magic. The whole thing was magical. I never felt better as a kid than I did at Christmas time. I loved everything about Christmas. And I submit to you that 80 percent of Americans feel the way that I do. All right? That they just remember as a child the joy the season brought.
    Not one word about Christ, not one word about salvation, not one word about new testament teachings. Here we are supposed to be celebrating the Christ and his alleged birthday and all he can think about is the magic of the presents that were left for him. I agree with those christians that argue that the holiday is way to secularized and in no way brings honor to the lord through its secularization. I guess a history lesson on Christmas and its predecessors would be lost on most so there is no point in telling it here, but suffice it to say there are many that celebrate christmas as the time of giving and sharing with those you love and with those less fortunate. Sounds to me like Bills xmas memories are rather secular, and what he needs is a good dose or two of the jesus.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, thanks for the O'Reilly quote. Like I said in my original post, he is a simple demagogue.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    To get the real scoop on the meaning of Christmas (or rather, why Christmas is really about nothing much at all), I suggest reading this book The Christ Conspiracy.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Happy Ramahanukwasmas to all

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Jl, while I agree with much of what you wrote, let's be honest, in this piece he was talking of his response to a Christmas when he was was "three, maybe four." Not of what Christmas means to him today. We find just what we look for in this world.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Happy Ramahanukwasmas to all
    How about Ramahanukwasmaskwanzasaturnalia? :)

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#14)
    by roxtar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    I hear O'Reilly has shock troops in reserve to defend against the "War on Easter" this Spring. Crucifixes which are not sufficiently bloody (as in Mel Gibson bloody) will be seen as signs of capitulation to the anti-Easter jews and atheists. Offenders will be scourged.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#15)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    “but don't infringe upon my right to celebrate traditions in a traditional manner.”
    And who is? Unless you are talking about your ‘right’ to use state extorted tax revenue to purchase the props for your particular religious celebration. Give me a break! Christians have been waging a full on assault on agnostics and atheists for decades upon decades. They loose a trivial skirmish here or there and crap a brick. I love Christmas, I love the decorations, the public displays, the extended breaks, all the crap I get. But it is wholly unfair to expect folks who don’t to subsidize my good time, and yours. Be a man and pay for your own party.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    SU, I usually agree with your assessments, however that was the backbone of his argument and he did not make any other argument on that show. I guess if he made the argument subsequent to the "kid" argument i would let it go but he didn't...

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    PW, right on as usual.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    They're using my extorted tax revenue too, and I should have a say and vote in what they call it. I gave it. There are bigger fish to fry in this day and age.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#19)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    PW... since others have been asked and not answered, perhaps you can shed some light on the issue. Remember this is coming from someone who doesn't have problem with people saying Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings, only with them not being allowed to say Merry Christmas. Since the Supreme Court has declared Christmas to be both a religous and a secular holiday, where is the harm in letting someone say merry Christmas? As long as the phrase is not used to be hateful/spiteful, what is the harm in allowing people to use the term? My whole objection has been that the attack on Christmas is from a PC run amok stnadard. With the Court specificaly saying that Christmas is a secular holiday, why isn't this nonsense (and it is nonsense on both those saying it is a war on Christmas as well as those wanting to purge the phrase form society) left to die? Why must the majority bow to the PC storm troopers? This isn't like an epithat. It is a sincere wish for holiday joy. Where is the harm in that?

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Big Tex, who is not allowed to say Merry Xmas?

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    . . . where is the harm in letting someone say merry Christmas? Seriously, Tex--has this been a problem? For anyone? I'm a mostly-Jewish woman in a roughly one-third-Jewish neighborhood and I have never, ever heard anybody--not even the Orthodoxim--give anyone grief about wishing them "Merry Christmas." O'Reilly lives in NYC too, so it's not clear where he might have seen such a thing. Possibly just in his own head.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    “…where is the harm in letting someone say merry Christmas? As long as the phrase is not used to be hateful/spiteful, what is the harm in allowing people to use the term?”
    I don’t care how folks say it, spiteful or not, or not at all. I think retailers are using the blandest phrasing possible out of deference to their bottom line; good for them. The idea behind governments calling their Christmas trees ‘holiday’ trees is similar to the way my old high school called seminary ‘release’ time. It’s a way of avoiding answering why you are spending tax revenue of non-Christians on Christian paraphernalia. Call it a festivus tree; we all know what it is. I think the Christians are shooting themselves in the foot with this business. You know, render unto Ceasar; I guess they wont be happy till Caesar owns Christ, lock, stock, and Christmas. Fine with me.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    I've come to a conclusion..anyone who is offended by either phrase, "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", is a total freakin moron and is to be ignored. I, for one, am tired of people who are offended so easily. It's a free country, be prepared to be offended often. That goes for the conservative christians and the pc liberals. Simply be grateful the greeter isn't telling you to go f yourself. But I agree with Gibson/O'Reilly in one regard, the evergreen in my living room is most definitely a Christmas tree...nothing else. It's a secular symbol with zero religous conotations. Common senseless bueracrats do stupid pc things all the time, like calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree. Ignore them. Now if the same bueracrats threatened you with arrest for calling it a Christmas tree, that would be a real "war on christmas". Now if only those pagans had used the marijuana plant to celebrate the winter solstice, the world would be a better place today:) Merry Christmas! "Peace on earth, can it be...."

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    with apologies to TL for the bandwidth. Congressman John Dingell; 'Twas the week before Christmas and all through the House, no bills were passed `bout which Fox News could grouse. Tax cuts for the wealthy were passed with great cheer, so vacations in St. Barts soon should be near. Katrina kids were all nestled snug in motel beds, while visions of school and home danced in their heads. In Iraq, our soldiers need supplies and a plan, and nuclear weapons are being built in Iran. Gas prices shot up, consumer confidence fell. Americans feared we were in a fast track to ..... well. Wait, we need a distraction, something divisive and wily, a fabrication straight from the mouth of O'Reilly. We will pretend Christmas is under attack, hold a vote to save it, then pat ourselves on the back. Silent Night, First Noel, Away in the Manger, Wake up Congress, they're in no danger. This time of year, we see Christmas everywhere we go, From churches to homes to schools and, yes, even Costco. What we have is an attempt to divide and destroy when this is the season to unite us with joy. At Christmastime, we're taught to unite. We don't need a made-up reason to fight. So on O'Reilly, on Hannity, on Coulter and those right-wing blogs. You should sit back and relax, have a few egg nogs. 'Tis the holiday season; enjoy it a pinch. With all our real problems, do we really need another Grinch? So to my friends and my colleagues, I say with delight, a Merry Christmas to all, and to Bill O'Reilly, happy holidays. Ho, ho, ho. Merry Christmas."

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#25)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    Not bad, Sailor, not bad at all.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    Jl, I get your point. I personally think you're searching for something that really isn't there, ie., that all O'Reilly cares about Christmas is getting gifts, but, hey, you may be right, who knows besides him?

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#27)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    This conversation reminds me of a friend at work. His parents brought him to the US from China when he was around 10. That in itself is interesting; he was from a very poor village (no food poor), and apparently it was standard practice for the village to scrape together the traveling money for those fortunate enough to win a spot in the US. And, once here they would find work and reimburse the villagers. Anyway, after settling in Texas there were no other Chinese with which to celebrate Chinese ‘holidays’. And they didn’t celebrate any of the traditional US holidays. I’ve been trying to convince him to celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas. It’s fun and he has a kid who it would be fun for also. He met his wife in China, so she’s not much into our holidays either. Too bad.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#28)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    I have never, ever heard anybody--not even the Orthodoxim--give anyone grief about wishing them "Merry Christmas."
    That's my point exactly Molly. No one takes offense to being wished a Merry Christmas. So why are retail chains saying their emoplyees must not say Merry Christmas, and governments changing the name to the Holiday Tree? Being told Merry Christmas isn't something people get upset about. Why have PC for the sake of PC. This is a worse use of PC than the NCAA and the no indian names mascot fiasco. The people don't want the PC types to speak for them on this issue, it is PC totally out of control.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#29)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    big tex, i think the difference is critical. name those stores who've ordered their employees not to use the term "merry christmas". think hard now, get those gears going good. answer: none, nada, zippo. in truth, they could if they wanted to, they are, after all, private enterprise. but, they haven't, for the simple reason that they don't want to offend anyone. don't be like o'leilly and gibson: gaseous, vaccuous blowhards, trying any sleazoid thing they can to buff up failing ratings. nothing like coming up with a solution for a nonexistent problem. i challenge anyone on here to cite a USSC ruling denying the right of any private party, or public party for that matter, to say "merry christmas". can't be done, doesn't exist. dec. 25 isn't christ's birthday, a 5th century monk used that date, when converting the julian calendar, on orders from the pope, because it coincided with a pagan winter festival. what better way to take over a faith, than by co-opting its holidays? shepards don't tend their flocks in the winter in bethlahem, it's too damn cold, and there's nothing for the flock to eat. he wasn't even born 2000 years ago, it was during the first years of herod's reign, probably 5 or 3bc. so tex, you go right on saying "merry christmas", neither i, nor the courts or congress will stop you.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    I'm an old man and I've had many troubles, most of which never happened. ~Mark Twain (for Bill O'Really)

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#31)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    TC, if you feel the need to edit my work, either do a better job of it, or get someone who can. everybody's a critic! from one who's wife does this professionally, this is how that first paragraph should have looked, after the blue pencil marks:
    big tex, name those stores who've ordered their employees not to use the term "merry christmas". think hard now, get those gears going good. answer: none, nada, zippo
    . notice how much better that flows? it's tighter, and soothing to the brain, not clunky. this is how briefs should be constructed as well, don't bore the judge and opposing counsel. anyway, i would have apologized to bigtex, i realized he was actually serious.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#32)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    no indian names mascot fiasco.
    Ha One thing I have noticed is those who decry PC are the ones who are not being offended directly. If I named a highschool footbal team the "Whining Republican Babies" or "Screaming Honkey's"... Maybe you would see why a team name such as "Redskins" is inherently offensive. Anyway, the "war" on christmas is so much non-sense. It is, like ID, another sneak attack by the religious groups to incorporate a certain dogma as law. By pretending to ignore the actual religious significance of the holiday (and from what I understand, christmas is second only to Easter on the hocus pocus factor) and instead "complaining" that stores are not saying "merry christmas" and instead are saying "happy holidays", they hope to get the govment to legislate "thou shalt practice no other holiday celebration between the third friday in November through Dec 25th (or Jan 6th depending on denomination) other than Christmas." It's another push by the intolerant religious nut-jobs to get a standardized religion in place. Theocracy does not work. Tolerance does.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:08 PM EST
    So Big Tex, you think the stores should cater to your view and way of extolling holiday wishes which of course is "merry christmas". I asked the question knowing full well you tiptoe around it. If you and the other christians do not like that a store does not use christ in their holiday wishes, start a christian chain to compete, like it has been done with music, books, camps etc. Or would you prefer the gov't step in and order them not to infringe upon the "christians'" right to wish a happy xmas to the store OWNERS patrons. They are not the employees' customers but the company's.

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:08 PM EST
    If I named a highschool footbal team the "Whining Republican Babies" or "Screaming Honkey's"... Maybe you would see why a team name such as "Redskins" is inherently offensive."
    Well, as a honkey, I have to say that the notion of calling a team the "Screaming Honkeys" is terribly entertaining to me, and I am all for it. However, with Redskins, it is about a team being given a name which is also a somewhat derogatory term for a minority group that was historically subject to a series of deportation and extermination campaigns. I suppose a better analogy would be if there was a sports team in Germany called the "Treacherous Jews" Hey, that is pretty offensive. I don't even think most conservative supposedly anti-PC folk would support that. As for the "War on Christmas" concept, there is no reason to even seriously discuss it. I disagree that this is some big effort to impose religion on the rest of us. Worst case scenario, they gain ground and some people go back to saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays." Who cares? I didn't even notice the shift to Happy Holidays in the first place. Perhaps some small red state towns put a nativity in the town square. Is this really that important? It's a far cry from forcing Christianity on everyone. Conservative media has picked up a non-issue to sell books and ad spots. It's also given the Daily Show some really good material precisely because it does not even rise to the level of serious discussion, so why discuss it seriously?

    Re: The (Other) War (none / 0) (#35)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:08 PM EST
    JL - My view is that PC should not be imposed. It's just as bad to force someone to say Merry Christmas as it is to forbid it. So to answer your direct question - no I don't think that stores should be forced to say merry Christmas. Stores should be allowed to use any greeting they want. Remember, I've said throughout I don't have a problem with Happy Holiday's or Season's Greeting's. The only problem has been the restriction of what is allowed, not forcing anything to be said. The problem is when Merry Christmas is not allowed. To answer your indirect question of do I think stores should take my view of not forcing PC down their customer's ears, yes. Epithats are one thing, but merry Christmas is not an epithat. From what I hear, both Target and Wal-Mart have taken measures to prevent merry Christmas. Also, word is that those rumors are bogus. So, I don't know if it is true or not, though the default position on rumors is there is usually a grain of truth that was the genesis of the rumor. (Admittedly, this may not be the wisest position to take rearding rumors.) The comment's have focused on retail entinties, but holds true for government intenties as well. This runs from schools banning Christmas Carols and renaming the break Winter Holiday to the city of Boston renaming their tree to a Holiday Tree. The whole idea is to not force PC down someone's throat when it is not an epithat at question. Johnny - I wasn't the only one bothered by the NCAA decision. The Seminole Tribe also criticized the decision, and the NCAA directly. They said that they were proud that FSU chose to name their mascot the Seminole's, and that the NCAA was not speaking for the Tribe. Redskins are a professional team, not NCAA, so weren't covered by the decision. CP - nothing to apologise for. You asked for me to name the stores who issued the decree. Nothing to take offense to there.

    The (Other) War | 35 comments (35 topical)