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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 04:54:25 AM EST
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I wish I could spend the day here blogging, but I can't. Here's an open thread so you can have your say.

Update: Tuesday's over, thread closed.

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 53 comments (53 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    I will post this here, since the original thread is off the "front page". It is embarassing to have thrown yet another tantrum and then peek back and see the kind words of support from people I respect here at TL. I apologize to everyone. With personal pressures mounting on a number of fronts, the kind words have had a very positive effect on me and are appreciated more than I can convey. Its not stupidity or even a different view that sets me off, its the patent dishonesty that I can't tolerate and the complete lack of accountability. You can't have a discussion with a propagandist, i.e. someone who continues to spout the party line irrespective of how many times the facts have been shown to not support the position and in fact a propagandist who maintains the old party line long after the party has given up that line of dishonest spin. I have a number of friends who i would describe as libertarians. We disagree very strongly about many things. Their arguments are based on principle and a different view of how things should be done. But they also don't tolerate dishonesty which leaves their views anchored in principles, albeit those I dont agree with. But such honesty allows us to remain friends despite our serious difference in political views.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    sorry hit post, propagandists I despise as they represent the rotten core of what is wrong today. From where I sit, the future for my kids especially the disabled son looks pretty bleak unless serious changes are made and made soon. Again i aplogize, BTW CP no you were not 51% responsible so dont worry about it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Normally, I wouldn't respond to a post by Soccerdad, for the simple reason that I gave up reading anything he has to offer months ago due to the constant attacks thrown at everyone who disagrees with him and the ridiculous claims to have disproven or refuted every argument with which he disagrees (posting a counter argument is one thing; posting one that is actually persuasive is quite another). But I noticed the exchange yesterday because of TL's direct response to Soccerdad, so I broke my rule and read back through that thread to see what he could have said that was worth Jeralyn's time. Well, it turned out to be yet more attacks, the now standard refrain about someone "hijacking" a thread (which appears to be "progressive" speak for discussing anything the person making the complaint doesn't want to discuss), and a "threat" to leave and never come back because this site is no longer woth the time. Nothing new there. Now, this morning, I see a new open thread and lo and behold the first and second post are a perfunctory "apology" and more whining about those Soccerdad doesn't like. [text deleted, way too long] Which is not to say, Soccerdad, that you should leave. Your behavior here is no worse than many others, and certainly no worse than mine has been on my bad days when I let you, or PIL, or someone else get to me. I will go back to ignoring you and you can feel free to ignore me in return. But please spare everyone the sanctimonious BS about how this site doesn't meet your requirements or people don't want to talk about what you consider the issues. If that's all you want, start your own blog and leave Jeralyn to hers and her fans.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    I thought people might be interested in this article in New Scientist: It begins: TYRONE JONES is serving a life sentence, in part because of a microscopic particle that Baltimore police found on his left hand. At his trial for murder in 1998 the crime-lab examiner gave evidence that the particle was residue from a gunshot. He claimed Jones must have held or fired a gun shortly before his arrest. Jones denies this and still protests his innocence. His defence team is appealing the conviction, claiming that the science of gunshot residue (GSR) analysis is not as robust as the prosecution claims. Now, a New Scientist investigation has found that someone who has never fired a gun could be contaminated by someone who has, and that different criminal investigators use contradictory standards. What's more, particles that are supposedly unique to GSR can be produced in other ways. Forensic scientists often testify that finding certain particle types means the suspect handled or fired a weapon. Janine Arvizu, an independent lab auditor based in New Mexico, reviewed the Baltimore county police department's procedures relating to GSR. Her report concludes: "The BCPD lab routinely reported that gunshot residue collected from a subject's hands 'most probably' arose from proximity to a discharging firearm, despite the fact that comparable levels of gunshot residue were detected in the laboratory's contamination studies." The BCPD did not return calls requesting comment.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    JP KMA

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    soccerdad... Nice post. I for one enjoy your rants (most of the time). I think what you fail to realize and/or consider is 'perspective'. We all have our own based on how we were raised, where we live, lifes experiences..etc..etc. You can't have a discussion with a propagandist, i.e. someone who continues to spout the party line irrespective of how many times the facts have been shown to not support the position In my humble opinion, you my friend are one of the primary examples of this type of reasoning. I for one like a good spirited debate. I have learned a lot on TL... some of which has made me rethink my position on a few things, however the way personal insults are thrown around here makes me also think that many on here have nothing pertinent to say and just want to agitate. Can't we all just get along? We are, after all, Americans first... yes?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    KMA :) Welcome back Soccerdad!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Beliefs are one thing For example my saying the future looks bleak is a belief not a fact and is open to debate. Another example, most people who want small government do so out of a belief basded on principle. I can disagree but will respect that point of view. I would not support dishonest arguments (e.g. made up data)in support of that view since there are plenty of honest ways to make that argument. To misquote the Kay report again after one's previous quotes have been shown to be incorrect 5-10 times is propaganda. Beliefs do not carry the same weight as corrobarated facts.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    sd, Excellent to have you back. Working from memory, most of the comments cherry-picked by justpaul above were appropriate in context. And I loved "you just crap on a page and call it a response", can I use that on another blog?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    So soc is back. We can now again expect to find the words "rethug" and "crap" in every thread, should we care to read his posts. My favorite comment about you was one made long ago, something to the effect that the poster's mental image of you is of a red-faced little man running up and down the sidelines at the soccer game screaming curses at the ref. "poked and prodded" into losing your temper and therefore forced to leave the site indeed. Yes, you are such a victim. Thankfully, since the threads you generally post on are the same old comments coming from the same old guys about the same old topics I usually give those threads a pass. Ah well, I guess the choir still listens to you. I know, I know, the feeling is mutual.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    I'd like open a new topic: What is happening with Rebuilding New Orleans. As a former resident of that city, I've been concerned and in contact with many of the friends and former co-workers - some of whom have returned and some who never shall.

    Most of the comments from people over the last few weeks have been depressing - my own included, I'm afraid.

    We are all getting the sense the New Orleans is being forgotten already, not only by the government, but by the Short Attention Span American people.

    We're "yesterday's news," it seems.

    Do people here that same sense? I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts.

    Thanks in Advance!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    I can't wait to hear the spin on this: White House claims 'strong consensus' on Iraq pullout Sun Nov 27 WASHINGTON (AFP) - The White House has for the first time claimed ownership of an Iraq withdrawal plan, arguing that a troop pullout blueprint unveiled this past week by a Democratic senator was "remarkably similar" to its own. [...] Even though President George W. Bush has never publicly issued his own withdrawal plan and criticized calls for an early exit, the White House said many of the ideas expressed by the senator were its own. In the statement, which was released under the headline "Senator Biden Adopts Key Portions Of Administration's Plan For Victory In Iraq," McClellan said the Bush administration welcomed Biden's voice in the debate. "Today, Senator Biden described a plan remarkably similar to the administration's plan to fight and win the war on terror," the spokesman went on to say. [...] ************************************************* Bush Rejects Calls for Early Withdrawal of Troops From Iraq Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush rejected calls for an early withdrawal of troops from Iraq and said completing military action there would be the best way to honor the more than 2,100 troops who have died since the start of the March 2003 invasion to oust dictator Saddam Hussein. [...]

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    JP: Regardless of what you think about soccerdad or Jim or any of us here on TL, the fact is SD's frustration expressed in that now infamous thread, though not really worth his time to indulge, was ultimately well-founded. It is now 2005, man. To continue to push a connection between 9/11 (or even AQ in general) and Saddam is to operate on a whole other plane of reality, very much akin to continuing to argue that the world is flat. Such claims do in fact waste everyone's time. Debate is one thing, obfuscation of facts quite another.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    g21 - to put it bluntly I don't care about NO. It is cold hearted? Absloutly. However, before jumping to conclusions hear my reasoning. My home area is where Rita came ashore. Forget reconstruction, the actual clean up won't be complete until March. Garbage pick-up has run a total of 4 times since the storm. Debris piles are larger than car high, and stacked at corners of roads, which has led to fatal car wrecks from people pulling out who cannot see around the debris. The aftermath between the two storms has been very different. I'm very critical of those who wail away on Mike Brown and FEMA. Why? Because 24 hours after Rita passed through relief supplies were rolling in. Not to all parts, but to most of the area. A big chunk of that has to do with us getting off our a** and clearing the roads ourselves, but regarless of the reason, I was at a FEMA supply station 24 hours after Rita passed through. So then the quetion becomes why so long to finish the clean up? Because a large amount of the crews who do the repairs are diverted to NO right now. What about those who are trying to repair? They're getting gouged. Contractors are in short supply, because most are in NO. The ones who are around are mostly local groups who did not go to NO, or came back from NO. In some cases, they are charging over 100% more than prestorm prices to do simple repair work, like roof replacement. Insurance is paying on the established rate at the storm, so some people simply cannot afford to have their home repaired because supplt is so tight because of NO. Now, don't think I'm looking for pity. I would imagine that the people who went through Dennis and Wilma are in the same situation, and they have as much of a claim to repair crews as Rita people do. So to answer your question, yes people are forgetting about Katrina/NO. Big deal, they have already forgotten about Rita, Dennis, and Wilma where need is too. If there is going to be some action taken, split it between the 4 areas, don't let NO be the only area assisted.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    sailor, The spin can be found here. Bush has announced his withdrawl plan repeatedly, but has fought against settings dates. The only thing Biden's plan adds to Bush's is dates. It's not clear to me whether Biden's dates are supposed to be strictly enforced. If not, then I think the plans really are "remarkably similar". If so, then Bush is making a silly and doomed effort to save face.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Accidentally hit post rather than preview. Don't get me wrong g21, I do empathise with NO and her plight. Having been through a similar situation I know all too well what is going on there. But NO is getting help to the point it is hurting other hurricane effected areas this year. I'm not saying NO should get no help, but rather that the help needs to be better dispursed. No one should be forgotten, but of what little bit of memory is left, NO is getting the lion's share.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    sailor,
    Man, that's some training program;-)
    The numbers you quote measure two different things. September 29, 2005, there was one battalion ready to fight on its own. The same article says Iraq had 86 army battalions in existance. Today, 130 battalions exist. So they supposedly added 44 battalions. If they're using the same unit size as the U.S., and Wikipedia is right about that size, that's 13200 to 44000 troops. At the low end, that doesn't sound like an outrageous number to have in a training pipeline.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    BigTex,

    Thankss for taking the time to comment.

    I'm a journalist, so I have a hide like a rhino and don't take offense easily. ;-)

    I'm certainly not advocating that all resources be diverted to NOLA. I want to believe that - given the political will - there're enough resources to address all the areas you mention.

    My fear, though, is that all of these issues will be swept under the rug.

    As this site is about social justice, there's a lot I could say about the criminal justice system in NOLA and Louisiana. I hope to do so in posts here as I have at G21 for years.

    Thanks for your comments. Though, I might quibble with NOLA getting the lion's share of attention.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Sept 29:
    U.S. general says number of capable Iraqi battalions drops to one By LIZ SIDOTI Associated Press WASHINGTON -- The number of Iraqi battalions capable of combat without U.S. support has dropped from three to one, the top American commander in Iraq told Congress Thursday, prompting Republicans to question whether U.S. troops will be able to withdraw next year.
    Today:
    On Monday, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad said the number was 100, plus 30 battalions of Iraqi Special Police. Pentagon spokesman Maj. Todd Vician said the 100 total includes five Iraqi special forces battalions.
    Man, that's some training program;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    N'Orlans I don't know if NO can be rebuilt. If rebuilt means like it was. Reading the Time piece this week makes you realize how bad it really is down there. Also go to Google Maps and click Katrina to see a birds eye view of the flooding. The main question is who's giong to go back and why would they? Most of the displaced people were living at or below poverty levels and worked in the tourist industry. Right now it's a Catch-22, no people because no jobs and no housing. No employees to be hired because no people. No economy because no trouists. No tourists because no place to put them etc... I see NO becoming a large version of Williamsburg or St. Augustine. A historical landmark with a small tourist industry but not ever becoming a large metropolitan city again. What of NO do we really want to save? Bourbon Street, Garden District. That's it. The country doesn't need a whole slew of people living in and around NO just so there are enough people to support all the people living there. I just don't see it in the cards. The Superdome is gone. The City will loose it's pro sports. Tulane will remain but who's going to enroll? What about UNO? The lists go on and on. NO simply can't take the majority of it's residents back and deep down many of them might not want to come back after living in another city for 6 to 18 months. The argument of IF NO should be rebuilt is an interesting one but I'm starting to wonder IF IT CAN be rebuilt.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    roy, I was pointing out the hypocrisy, they talk about these 130 battalions like they are ready, when only 1 is. So what they are saying is that, except for ~300-700 soldiers, there are 100,000 troops 'in the pipeline.' Except that:
    The U.S. military said today that more than 112,000 Iraqi police and nearly 100,000 Iraqi troops have been trained and equipped so far.
    So if they are 'trained and equipped', why aren't they ready? And then there's this from August:
    About 79,900 Iraqi Army soldiers and national guardsmen have been counted as being "operational" in August, according to the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index.
    Yet in September "George W. Casey Jr., who oversees U.S. forces in Iraq, said there are fewer Iraqi battalions at "Level 1" readiness than there were a few months ago. " And the number he named was 1. Someone, or everyone, is lying.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    BTW, bush said today:
    "We will make decisions about troops levels based upon the capability of the Iraqis to take the fight to the enemy," Bush said in El Paso.
    The situation in iraq is worse than ever before. But bush is an honorable man, so are they all honorable men.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Sailor I think the point is more and more soldiers are ready to be led in battle but not enought are ready to lead the forces on their own. More troops are at level II and are currently operating with US assistance, air support etc... I think the crux of the issue is not are the troops ready but are their commanders ready. It takes longer to train someone how to lead someone into battle then it does to train someone how to follow orders, baisc soldiering, tactics etc... in battle. Remember the Iraqi military wasn't a very good one in the first place. We're replacing a Cold War Military patterned after the inafective Russians with a modern American hybrid. During Level II phase we're able to try out commanders on the ground to see if they cut it. If they don't they stay Level II untill they do. Think Tom Cruise in Last Samari. At first the troops couldn't fight at all even though Tom was a stud. The Samuri's were still superior and compatency as a fighting unit outweighed any technical or tactical advantages the modern army had. But when Tom became a Samuri the soldiers learned how to follow orders and could fight but they still needed the American to give the orders, and now that they were more modern they easily crushed the poor Samuri. Later they learned how to give their own orders and bombed Pearl Harbor. Stupid analogy but apt.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Slado,

    Thanks! Well, obviously, I don't want or need to take on the role of Defender of the Crescent City. There were/are a lot of things about NOLA that we all knew needed to be changed.

    At the same time, as I written in my columns and the book that is the URL link on my "Sig" here, it was the crown jewel of the Louisiana Purchase by President Jefferson. Why? Most of the commerce from the heartland of this nation comes down the Mississippi River and moves in and out of the Port of New Orleans.

    All empires in history have been built around rivers, the Mississippi is America's and New Orleans is its port. That's just historical fact.

    So it can't, as I've said elsewhere, just become "Disneyland with cocktails." It was and is more than that.

    It has to be rebuilt. The salient questions are around what model and will it be a city we can be proud about? I know lots of people who mean to go back.

    I'm one of them.

    Again, thanks for your thoughts. They help me sharpen my own thinking on this issue.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    g21 Don't get me wrong I love New Orleans and have been their at least 10 times in my breif lifetime and was their as recently as May but I only wonder aloud what can be done. You know better then me but the city was leveled like London during the blitz and on top of this it would happen next summer if a hurricane hit it. Also it will be constantly under threat of flooding forever usless drastic measures and billions of dollars are spent. Obviously the port and the oil industry will remian becasue of logistics but I don't think many people will return or should return because frankly it's dangerous to have that many people living underwater. That said here's to hoping it comes back better then ever.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    SD - I think your anger is directed more at yourself over losing self-control and reacting so badly that you were banned from the site. As your pre-banned attacks were mostly at me, I think you have transferred the anger at getting banned from yourself, to me. That is not a healthy situation, and in the real world would not be easily settled by an apology for letting outside pressures bother you. We all have them. So the answer becomes not "if" but "how" we react to pressure. Never the less, I will continue to debate you on issues of war and peace, or other political issues in a civilized manner, stating my positions, and providing links to other sites and articles that explain or prove my points. Should you choose not to answer I will just assume you are too busy, not interested or incapable. BTW – I continue my position as a social liberal who believes that we live in the greatest country on God’s Green Earth while knowing that it makes mistakes from time to time, but is one of the few places where self-correction is so easy and always expected. I believe the glass is half full. I have commented here on my beliefs in a national health system, gay rights, help for the disadvantaged, tax reform and a woman’s right to choose. While we may differ in degree on those items, I hope your outrage is over the war, but I honestly believe that it is directed at Bush. So be it. Your right. I believe that the war was necessary, that it is global, that Iraq is just a battle, but one that must be won. So my support of Bush is based on my agreement with him that we must fight the war in a pre-emptive manner. I confess to worrying much less about the detainees in GITMO than I do Grandma in the Bronx. If being loyal is a vice, then so be it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    PPJ thanks for your psychological evaluation. I suggest that you retake Psych 101. I was not banned yesterday. I am mad at you for being the modern day equivalent of a "brown shirt". IMO, No liberal worthy of the label would support torture as you have

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    roy - The difference is in the lack of dates. One pins us to a course of action that can be taken advantage of by the terrorists. The other keeps them guessing.. A huge, huge difference. SD writes:
    To misquote the Kay report again after one's previous quotes have been shown to be incorrect 5-10 times is propaganda.
    Can you tell us who this person is, and show the misquotes? If you can not, then, as you wrote:
    Beliefs do not carry the same weight as corrobarated facts.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    SD - I did not say you were banned yesterday. Please take the time to read the comment. Isn't there an Internet rule that he who first calls the other a Nazi, looses? ;-) Nice ad hominem. Define torture.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Well now... It looks like, after all is said and done, George W. Bush really is making history:
    There is a remarkable article in the latest issue of the American Jewish weekly, Forward. It calls for President Bush to be impeached and put on trial "for misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost them". To describe Iraq as the most foolish war of the last 2,014 years is a sweeping statement, but the writer is well qualified to know. He is Martin van Creveld, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and one of the world's foremost military historians. Several of his books have influenced modern military theory and he is the only non-American author on the US Army's list of required reading for officers.
    Congratulations to George, and to all of his supporters as well, of course. We knowed you had it in you, boy! ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Sailor,
    I was pointing out the hypocrisy, they talk about these 130 battalions like they are ready, when only 1 is.
    Gotcha. I think we're of a like mind on the numbers issue then. Bush & Friends are using the number of extant troops in a cheerleading "look how good a leader I am" way, while glossing over the more important and more depressing metrics. Jim,
    The difference is in the lack of dates. One pins us to a course of action that can be taken advantage of by the terrorists. The other keeps them guessing.. A huge, huge difference.
    The question in my mind is whether Biden wants us pinned, or just wants to set dates as goals without giving up flexibility. I suspect the Right of trying to exagerate the strictness of Biden's dates in order to make the Left look bad; maybe I'm wrong there, it's hard to tell because the few direct quotes I've found are ambiguous.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    On another note, the "War on Christmas" drivel. I have spoekn to this increasingly over the last few weeks because I cannot for the life of me believe that people aren't laughing their arses off at FOX News and other rightwing outlets for all this coverage. With all the problems we've got right now, here we have this completely fabricated issue, and people appear to be taking it seriously. It's far stupider, even, say, than the Natalie Holloway crap or the Shiavo vegetable market frenzy. Check out, if you can stomach it, O'Reilly's newest post, which includes a poll asking Americans whether or not they will shop at stores that (horrors!) don't say "Merry Christmas." TL once said John Gibson was smart. I invite her to check out what he's doing now, as well, and then come back and tell us how "smart" this troglodyte is.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    I like Christmas time and find nothing offensive about "Merry Christmas" or decorations on public buldings. To me it has no religous connotation
    Agreed, absolutely. And your attitude very much reflects the general cultural reality, commercially, socially, politically (all points on the compass), etc. That's what makes the whole thing so stupid, actually. There is in fact no war on Christmas. If you think there is, I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    PPJ i'm done with you and I am not going down paths we've covered in excruciating detail. Like I said there is no sense in debating a propagandist. BTW you are the only one here I would categorize as such have fun "catapulting the propganda"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    As a side note, I have made it clear to all my loved ones that I do not want any gifts. I said if they insist on getting me something, give a homeless person 5 bucks and say it's from kdog. The materialism kind of bugs me out.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    G21 - what is the employment situation in NO? That will be the key to how NO emerges from the storm. Back home, unemployment jumped 4% to be the highest in the state, higher even than in the valley. In some of the towns post Rita unemployment has risen to ~15%. However, this has coincided with a record number of businesses with help wanted needs. They can get help, but the help quits after a couple of days... literally. That's not enough for the businesses to incur the expense to hire them. These businesses are Wal-Mart types and restraunts mainly. Basic needs stores and restraunts. While I am still a bit confused about the interplay it is starting to come to a conclusion. I would suggest that two types of people do not return after a storm. The first is the type allused to upthread. The second type is the type that works, but finds similar jobs in their new area. Some of that problem will be eased with the reopening of colleges... college students will fill the void. It's not great pay, but it is income before they have advanced enough to get a job in their field of study. NO should be rebuilt. I have not been there in 5 years, but enjoy it every time I've been there. I wonder though if it will be possible to have the workforce to rebuild the same culture that existed preKatrina. Sure physically the buildings can be erected again. But the bigger question is if the spirit can be rebuilt, both Creole and Cajun. Odds are Creole will recover before Cajun, and that will change the demeanor of NO.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Slado and BigTex,

    Please forgive me for responding to your posts in one message, but that seems the most expeditious route.

    Slado, I find it interesting that you mention London, since it is another city below sea level. In fact, a reviewer of my book on NOLA ends his piece by quoting a Brit who points that out and states that the UK was simply willing to spend more to build good levees. (On the other hand, when's the last time a hurricane hit London? I know.)

    You bring up a great point, BigTex, employment. Jobs are going begging in NOLA right now according to all my friends. Dig this: only a couple of weeks ago, Burger King was offering a SIGNING BONUS for people to work there. (!!!) I was nonplussed when I heard this.

    If you've watched the NewsHour (PBS) lately or CNN, you know that there are jobs to be had but NOT housing. Therein lies the rub.

    I have a bunch of pals in the real estate industry down there now. They are all saying, "Y'all should come back." But when I ask, "Where's we gonnah live?" They all go, "Well -- uhmn -- I mean --"

    That's not right. We all know that. I guess it just has to start with some grit.

    Like I said, I dont' want to be Defender of New Orleans. I just think somebody needs to speak up for my town.

    Thanks for your time.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    "The moral and intellectual bankruptcy of modern conservatism is to be found throughout the media. The appeal is increasingly to the reptilian hulks who are drawn to rhetoric that appeases their unfocused sense of anger. As I read and listen to the conservative rampage against the very values that once defined their position, I am reminded of my young adult years, when those of us who held individualist views had to work, ever so hard, to confront collectivist doctrines. The Marxist/socialist camp was wrong on just about every issue, but they offered a challenge to the mind that had to be met. I find no inner substance to modern conservatism that requires careful examination. Their oratory remains at the level of adolescent taunting, or what one might hear at a labor union beer-party. Like sharks lurking offshore, most conservatives are a deadly force to be avoided, not intellects with which to reason. The extent of the conservative metamorphosis can be measured by the unbridgeable chasm separating two men named Karl. The first was a late and dear friend of mine, Karl Hess, who advised and wrote speeches for one of the last of the traditional conservatives, Barry Goldwater. His words "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" and "moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" stand in vivid contrast to the mindset of the other man, Karl Rove, a Machiavellian who advises George W. Bush. The distance separating these two men also measures how far modern conservatism has moved from a more principled center." --from Butler Shaffer, July 25, 2005 --The Decline and Fall of Conservatism

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    SD - Ok with me. Just be aware that I challenged you to prove your statement. Since you evidently can't, then I guess we know who the "propagandist" is. (Hint. Look in a mirror.) roy - I don't think OBL cares. If we stay he'll just continue to kill Iraqis and try to kill us. If we leave he'll just continue to kill Iraqis, and try to kill us. The difference being is that if the timing is wrong, we'll lose the war, and Iraq won't have a chance. g21 - As a RCA (Registered Coon A*s - "Don't worry about nuttin.") I hope the area comes back, I have many friends there and oh so many fond memories. But... (the famous "but")... I think we are starting to see the general population saying, "Why should I pay for rebuilding a city that has been seeped in corruption for years. Why should I pay for someone's home that lives in an area that we all know could get destroyed next year? And yes, the same thing could be said about Miami and Washington, DC(corruption) and Overland, KS (tornados). But don't be surprised if the next disaster has people telling Bush I and Clinton to go home and the needy to consider another place to live. Kindly note that the above isn't an approval of such actions, but a word to the wise to people who live "on the slopes of the volcano."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    g21, I used to live in NO. I've always told friends it was my favorite city. Even tho I was (mostly) unemployed, and I was quickly running out of money. I still loved living there. Beignets and hot chocolate at the Cafe, going from the docks to 1 Shell Plaza trying to find work. maybe a beer at the student union after a most desirable trolley ride. And every time back has been an affirmation of that love. It's an absolute shame that NO was allowed to drown. Now that she is out of the spotlight no one seems to care that not much has improved. The dead body search was called off, but dead bodies continue to be found. Contracts go to no-bid out of state companies, and LA companies and workers are excluded. Out of state companies hire illegal workers, then don't pay them and strand them. ... etc.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    DA Bingo

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    "Like sharks lurking offshore, most conservatives are a deadly force to be avoided, not intellects with which to reason." And like sharks, though they are some of the biggest, most powerfull and deadly, most terrifying fish in the pond, they are incapable of higher thought processes and most especially of reason, and operate only at the level of primitive and savage instinct. Their weakness is that though they think they are the top of the food chain they cannot reason, they can only attack, and seek to overwhelm by sheer brute strength. If their method worked, sharks would now dominate the planet. But they do not. The planet is dominated by the slower, softer, seemingly weaker beings capable of reasoning, and because of that ability always, in the long run, prevailing.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    DA- Hugs and hugs. SD - Hugs for you too. BTW - DA, perhaps you can help SD in proving his claim about the use of the Kay report.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    On another note, the "War on Christmas" drivel.
    Sure there is a war on Christmas. SCOTUS has declared both Christmas and Hannakuh to be both religous and secular holidays. Okay, that's a fair assessment. But the PC run amok is only directed at the Christmas end of the two. The Christmas Tree has become the "Holiday Tree" as an example. As soon as the PC denziens start calling a Menorah a "Decrative Holiday Candle Holder" or some other such nonsense, then those who say there is no war on Christmas will have a good point. But until then, as long as the aim is at Christmas only, the war on Christmas rhetoric claim legit.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Happy Holidays = out of consideration Merry Chrismas = continued paycheck for media RWNJs.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    "The Christmas Tree has become the "Holiday Tree" as an example." Thank you, Big Tex, for illustrating the vapidity of the "War on Christmas" argument. There may be a few places and people who call it a holiday tree. Most will call it a Christmas Tree, including most non-Christians. As if this matters. You've allowed demagogic boobs like Gibson and O'Reilly to convince you that the "PC denizens" are some kind of threat to you. Hey look: Christians in America are not persecuted, okay? Get over it, and get over yourself while you're at it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    jp your link doesn't work, and I'm dying to see this "run amok" phenomenon. I'm dying to see why the "War on Christmas" deserves all this coverage, all this worry. But then, I guess the really big issues are all taken care of--some examples: 1)Our health care system is great; 2)The economy is running like a well-oiled machine and we have negligible poverty and no more homeless people; 3)AIDS victims in America always get access to the best medications, regardless of income; 4)We have "won" in Iraq and are on our way home; Etc. You get the idea. No wonder we're able to dedicate so much time to "issues" surrounding Shiavo, Holloway, flag-burning, Marxist English Professors and someone not saying Merry Christmas at Wal-Mart. Planet Murdoch has claimed another victim.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Glanton, Don't know why it isn't working, but here it is again: Link Don't know who the victim you are referring to is, but if it's me, you couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe you should have waited to get the link before you started your usual rant.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    jp: The victim I refer to is all of us, or rather, another part of all of us. Being "Amused to Death," as it were, by drivel and drivel and more drivel still. Kurt Cobain was wrong, Nature's not a whore, it's people who are whores. And the media demonstrates this about as well as anything. And Murdoch is a wonderful trope for the entire media industry, dontcha think? Thus Planet Murdoch. BTW: You are obviously a thoughtful guy, and though we have sparred heatedly and even nastily, I have never intended to imply I thought you were just some lemming or tool or something. Yet I am well aware that sometimes my vitriole gets out of hand, and I'm working on that. You know, in the spirit of Christmas and everything ;-) Anyway, your link doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I've been in the University system for most of my adult life, and thus am well acquainted qith the follies of extreme political correctness. And lack of a sense of humor is a big part of the problem. Still, the pc movement had and has its valuable aspects as well, which you undoubtedly already know. None of which means we need to be defending Christmas. The holiday will take care of itself. The fact that I and my family and closest friends, almost none of whom are observantly religious, celebrate every year testifis to the pervasive effects of the holiday.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Hey look: Christians in America are not persecuted, okay? Get over it, and get over yourself while you're at it.
    It's not? Why? Because you say so?
    There may be a few places and people who call it a holiday tree.
    Not the number, but who. Boston, Mass. is one of those places. DC is another.
    Most will call it a Christmas Tree, including most non-Christians.
    Let's apply your logic to the death penalty. Most of the condemned are guilty, so the few who aren't don't matter. I hope the logic flaw is obvious.
    As if this matters.
    Once again, why not? Because you say so? What about other points of view? Aren't other points of view entitled to their own opinion, or are the thought police out on patrol?
    You've allowed demagogic boobs like Gibson and O'Reilly to convince you that the "PC denizens" are some kind of threat to you.
    Quite the contrary, I have not had cable TV for app 2 years now, so that's 2 years of no Fox news on a regular basis, and as an alternative argument to get around any contamination of thought argument I came to that conclusion before I started watching Fox, when I did have access.
    Get over it,
    Once again, why? Because you say so? Where's the tolerance for opposing POVs? Besides, you haven't addressed the merits of what I posted. The whole PC holiday tree argument fails, because it is directed at Christmas, and not at the other holiday's that are in the same time frame. Add things like decorative holiday andle holder, and I'll change my position to simply PC run amok rather than an attack on Christmas. But as long as the policy is to target Christmas only that's an action designed to eradicate Christmas from the public.
    and get over yourself while you're at it.
    Also, The get over yourself bit is not called for. I didn't attack you directly. Also notice I didn't criticize the Wal-Mart types of this debate. I don't have a problem with Happy Holiday's or Season's Greetings, because they are applied across the board. Those two phrases don't target a specific holiday, they treat all as equal.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    The city of Boston calls its tree a holiday tree, you say. So too Washington D.C. Okay, I'll bite: how precisely is this an attack on Christianity? You know, how does this persecute anyone? Do you imagine that the citizes of those cities who want to (almost all of them, probably) don't celebrate Christmas now because of some public display political correctness. As kdog has pointed out, this entire discussion loses almost all of its rhetorical significance once you point out its obsession with public display, as opposed to persnoal observance of the holiday. And yes, this is a vapid and unimportant debate, Big Tex, when compared to, say, the problem of homelesness, which really could be front and center all the time, but especially in winter. But to talk about the homeless isn't sexy; to defend Daniel in the Lion's den is, apparently. Except this aint Daniel: Christians practice their religion with freedom in the United States. What upsets some of them, it seems, is the fact that their desire to evangelize in every arena of public life sometimes gets thwarted. Re the "get over yourself" comment: I have every reason to assume that you care about this because you're a Christian, and that perhaps on some level this debate makes you feel like an oppressed of some kind, a valiant underdog. Spare us the committment to civil liberties. When you start standing up for those people who are not you, whose liberties have been quashed and ignored regularly for the past 5 years, then that'll be something else. As for the death penalty analogy, that's pretty shockingly cavalier, even for a Texan. And no rhetorician worth his or her salt would give you a passing grade if your argument rested on it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    DA – While I am sure SD will appreciate your attempts to prove his claim, what he wrote was:
    To misquote the Kay report again after one's previous quotes have been shown to be incorrect 5-10 times is propaganda.
    My question to him was:
    Can you tell us who this person is, and show the misquotes?
    And while I appreciate your efforts, why should I care about articles telling us what is in the Report? I have the actual Kay Report. So again, if you can help SD out in proving his claim he will most likely appreciate it. Until then, as SD wrote:
    Beliefs do not carry the same weight as corrobarated facts.


    Tuesday Open Thread | 53 comments (53 topical)