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Your Papers Please?

Miami is taking new steps to keep terrorists off guard...asking Americans to supply ID papers when conducting ordinary activities like entering a bank or hotel or riding a bus or train.

Both uniformed and plainclothes police will ride buses and trains, while others will conduct longer-term surveillance operations. "People are definitely going to notice it," Fernandez said. "We want that shock. We want that awe. But at the same time, we don't want people to feel their rights are being threatened. We need them to be our eyes and ears."

Is this what we've become? Who said the terrorists didn't win the terror war?

[Via Atrios.]

Update: At least in Denver, the authorities are moving slowly in deciding whether to prosecute a woman who refused to show identification while riding a bus to work:

"Passengers aren't required to carry passports or any other identification documents in order to ride to work on a public bus," [ACLU Director Mark Silverstein] said.

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    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    And what to make of this, from the AP article "Howard Simon, executive director of ACLU of Florida, said the Miami initiative appears aimed at ensuring that people's rights are not violated. "'What we're dealing with is officers on street patrol, which is more effective and more consistent with the Constitution,' Simon said." Good grief! C'mon Howard! What are you thinking? You're the friggin' ACLU!

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    That puzzled me too. Thanks for mentioning it.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    $100 says he was completely misquoted. Anybody who's ever talked to a reporter knows how easily that can happen.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Meet Dudley Hiibel. He's a 59 year old cowboy who owns a small ranch outside of Winnemucca, Nevada. He lives a simple life, but he's his own man. You probably never would have heard of Dudley Hiibel if it weren't for his belief in the U.S. Constitution. One balmy May evening back in 2000, Dudley was standing around minding his own business when all of a sudden, a policeman pulled-up and demanded that Dudley produce his ID. Dudley, having done nothing wrong, declined. He was arrested and charged with "failure to cooperate" for refusing to show ID on demand. Welcome to your new world order...

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    I remember the case well, edger. Men like Hiibel are heros in my book. It is often more convenient to just go along with tyranny, but Hiibel stood up for what is right. Not enough men left like him.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    kdog, Dudley Hiibel, I know from what I think is likely similar life experience to yours, is just one visible and public example of a sort of "underground economy" of free thinking individualists who are at the same time very strongly aware of the interdepence we all live in, that I suspect is growing like wildfire across the country and around the world these past few years, as the insecure control freaks who are so terrified that they feel the need to define consensual reality and morality for everyone else try to take over our societies... I think you know what I mean...

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    TL, the link in your post to the case in Denver is broken.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    National ID cards, RFID chips in drivers licenses, soon there will be no reason for stopping anyone to ask them to produce ID. Why bother, why not just scan the chips in their ID as they walk or drive by? What's next? Subdermal RFID's installed at birth? Not just Driver's Licenses but Living Licenses? Internal passports? I'm reminded of an article by Butler Shaffer at the Southwestern University School of Law, by the same title as this thread: "Your Papers, Please":
    Even beyond the violent and repressive reactions of the American government, the most unsettling consequence of the WTC attacks has been the nearly total collapse of the minds of most Americans. ... The constant presence of police; the insistence upon showing "your papers" to whichever government underling demanded them; the awareness that neither your person nor home was immune from state searches or seizures; the disappearance of people into unknown prison camps; neighbors spying upon neighbors, and children betraying their parents to the state; and the domination of society by a military and bureaucratic arrogance, arbitrariness, and absolutism... ... When coercion supplants cooperation; when the inviolability of the individual is sacrificed to some alleged collective security; and when violence is equated with "patriotism" and peace with "un-Americanism," the days of such a society are numbered. ... Because we fear the responsibility for our actions, we have allowed ourselves to develop the mentality of slaves.
    How far are we willing to let this sh*t go, how far can this sh*t be taken, how much of this are we willing to take, before we wake up?

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    National ID cards, RFID chips in drivers licenses, soon there will be no reason for stopping anyone to ask them to produce ID. Why bother, why not just scan the chips in their ID as they walk or drive by? What's next? Subdermal RFID's installed at birth? Not just Driver's Licenses but Living Licenses? Internal passports? I'm reminded of an article by Butler Shaffer at the Southwestern University School of Law, by the same title as this thread: "Your Papers, Please":
    Even beyond the violent and repressive reactions of the American government, the most unsettling consequence of the WTC attacks has been the nearly total collapse of the minds of most Americans. ... The constant presence of police; the insistence upon showing "your papers" to whichever government underling demanded them; the awareness that neither your person nor home was immune from state searches or seizures; the disappearance of people into unknown prison camps; neighbors spying upon neighbors, and children betraying their parents to the state; and the domination of society by a military and bureaucratic arrogance, arbitrariness, and absolutism... ... When coercion supplants cooperation; when the inviolability of the individual is sacrificed to some alleged collective security; and when violence is equated with "patriotism" and peace with "un-Americanism," the days of such a society are numbered. ... Because we fear the responsibility for our actions, we have allowed ourselves to develop the mentality of slaves.
    How far are we willing to let this sh*t go, how far can this sh*t be taken, how much of this are we willing to take, before we wake up? Just exactly how much freedom do a people deserve, if they will not stand up and demand it?

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    For those interested, more of Shaffer's writing can be found here.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    edger..I'm glad I'm not alone. We can smash our RFID chipped licenses together. I'll bring the hammer.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Kdog, We could always melt them down and make rat traps out of 'em ;-)

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    ...while waiting in the small, windowless holding room they return with a printout of the last 100 comments logged on these sites? This will tie in nicely with the new domestic surveillance programs we have to live with. RFID combined with GPS and data-mining at their fingertips? What happens if they ask where you've come from and you give an incorrect answer? Will that be grounds for detention? I'm afraid they'll enjoy making an example of me because I'm sure not giving up simple freedoms for their control.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    rumi, you forgot the fact that if you own a cell phone the gov't knows exactly where you are.

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Sailor, That's why you'll find most P.I.'s will remove the battery from their cell phone when not using it...

    Re: Your Papers Please? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    I really had to laugh, when I read this, a cracking good roll on the floor laugh. No, seriously, it was very funny to me. Immediately after the introduction of the so called Patriot act, I pointed out to the good citizens of the U.S. that this would occur in the very near future under that act. I was laughed at, and poo, pooed, many claims were made, "it'll never happen". YEAH RIGHT ! I just hope, that the very same people who did the laughing and poo, pooing are the victims today. Serves'em bloody right. What's that they say about, "WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND "? I guess you could say, it most deffinately apolies here. Luverly stuff.