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Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit

By Jeralyn, Section Valerie Plame Leak Case
Posted on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:31:09 PM EST
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Michael Isikoff has a new piece on Karl Rove. He writes that Karl Rove recently took out a $100,000 line of credit and speculates it is for legal fees, even though Rove insists the credit line is for other purposes. Jane thinks Isikoff is trying to make Rove look sympathethic.

I have no doubt that Karl Rove's legal fees are huge. They probably topped a million some time ago. But does anyone really think he is paying them himself? I don't know anything about campaign finance laws but I suspect Rove's lawyers have found a legal way for huge corporations to pay the fees, either directly or by funneling the money to radical right organizations who pay the fees. Karl Rove is not Scooter Libby. Karl Rove wins elections for the Republicans, Scooter Libby is a policy guy for Cheney. Scooter's legal team is on its own having to raise legal fees. I suspect when Karl Rove puts out the call, a line forms as long as the one at Wal-Mart this Tuesday for the X-box 360.

Isikoff is on surer ground when he brings up possible conflicts arising from Rove's participating in Administration decisions related to issues on which his lawyer Robert Luskin and close friend Ben Ginsberg's law firm Patton Boggs heavily lobby the White House.

I have been one to harp on the connection between Rove, Ginsberg and Luskin. But the issue of paying legal fees seems like a red herring to me. Lawyers get paid. Luskin has represented Karl Rove for at least two years on this matter. If Rove hasn't made a deal with Fitz and really is in jeopardy, he'd be raising five million for fees like Libby, not $100 grand. $100 grand might cover the fees for few months of negotiating a no prosecution or plea agreement with Fitz and preparation for and follow-up to his fourth grand jury appearance. It sure wouldn't cover a contested Indictment.

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    Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit | 25 comments (25 topical)
    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    There are two legal systems. There is one for everyday working folks that are afraid to even call their lawyer because they cannot afford the minimum 10 minute charge the lawyer will charge them. We get a legal system of expensive bills and lawyers that juggle many different cases and can never remember the details of any. In that legal system the facts are completely abused and you just hope the lawyer gets the law mostly right. And then there is the legal system for people that can actually afford a lawyer fulltime. These are the only people that actually have any chance at defending themselves against a machine that wants to grind them up. It's despicable really, that 99% lawyers do nothing to address this, and the occasional pro-bono effort for the indigent does nothing to address the problem.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    J Pierpont, That's the best legal(?) argument I've ever seen for self-education...

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    True, IL"S"L is not a huge player, but I'd argue that he's not insignificant. Consider that (along with Rumsfeld, Cheney, and other names of note) he signed the PNAC statement of principles.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Pierpont, Maybe you think I should handle every case pro bono? Would you like to pay back my student loans? You have a pretty distorted view of what the system is like. It's true that people with mega bucks can usually (but not always) tie up the government more than those without those kind of resources. But lawyers spend years and lot of dough to get their shingle. Legal services will never be cheap. Do you expect doctors to work for free too? If we want professional services available to the masses for little or no fees, we would need to allocate a significant portion of our tax base toward provding these services. And good luck there - we can't even get enough money to insure that public defenders don't have to carry a caseload three times that which is legally and ethically permissible. If you have any ideas, we're all ears.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    if you have any ideas, we're all ears. Well Leisure Suit Larry, I don't know of many doctors that charge $300 per hour knowing their client will be requiring their services for many many continuous hours. Basically, I would say that lawyers have an overly inflated notion of their worth to society. That's worth to society, not worth to one individual. Sure, sure, Leisure suit, I hear you saying that it's a free market. But it isn't a free market is it? Demand is not elastic. And due to the bar there is not a free supply. (Bars might be a good thing in terms of quality, but it is also a market distorting entity) It's very much not a free market. Then the feedback system is terribly poor. File a legal malpractice case? Yeah, right, and that's assuming you know you were mistreated. But services that other professions give out for free, not due to lack of market power, but for ethical reasons, are services that lawyers have convinced themselves it is okay to charge for. Service one. The initial consultation costs full-fare for the full hour, regardless of how much time you take up. Well Leisure Suit, I hear you saying there is an opportunity cost involved. Yes, but that is not how other professionals do it. Professional Engineers? Let's talk and see if my skills and competencies meet yours, otherwise I will refer you to someone else. And ethically, it is very dubious to charge for that first hour. Most clients have limited resources, and it is important to find not just a good lawyer, but a lawyer that you can have a good relationship with. But what does the initial hourly fee do? It keeps the client from finding the best representation for that individual by dramatically limiting his/her ability to search. So lawyers dubious ethics and expensive practices keep the client at time t=0 from making the best decision for the outcome of his or her case. And then there are class action suits. Did netflix recently settle a class action suit giving the lawyers millions while giving the class ONE FREE MONTH of service to netflix? And I don't see lawyers screaming to reform class action suits. And don't get me wrong, I am a yellow dog democrat, and I understand the need for the average citizen to be able to seek redress in the courts. But I am saying the system you participate in, and that makes you rich, is unethical, unoptimal, coercive, and very much not a free market. You guys have a massive agency problem and you refuse to acknowlege it. Do I think you should work every case pro-bono? No. I think you should dramatically lower your rates on all cases, or charge sensitive to the client's ability, or establish payment plans and not these blackmailing coercive, I will withdraw from your case tomorrow unless you can get me another $3000 practices. Hey Leisure Suit Larry, you're the one making $200-$600 per hour, you're obviously much smarter than me, and much more valuable to society, you figure it out the solutions.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Doctors don't charge as much as lawyers do. (Hospitals might, emergency services might, but not a doctor consultation.) Their rates are based on seeing you for a few hours each year. Engineers may charge that much per hour for an hour or two consultation. But the average engineer, who has probably had just as much education as you have had, will be charging much less when they know they will be charging for weeks at a time. And then there are the charges for faxes, and the charges for phone calls, and the charges for delivering documents, and the charges for thinking about your case in the shower. You get away with it due to group think, an agency problem, and a coerced market. Enjoy.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Pierpont, Most doctors make more than lawyers do. Statistics clearly bear that out. They can charge whatever they want because insurance companies pay their freight. The real truth is that when it comes to charging outrageous fees, lawyers are amateurs compared to doctors and hospitals. As for payment plans, a criminal defense lawyer has to get his fee from the client and get it up front or they won't get paid. In criminal cases where I practice, judges will not let you off the case once you've filed your notice of appearance. Many lawyers have found themselves working for free because their clients reneged on their promise to pay pursuant to a payment plan. What happens when you try to collect a legitimately earned fee? They file a bar complaint (I actually had a client do this after I got him acquitted at trial). You heard me say that I charge full rates for an initial consultation due to opportunity cost? That's funny, you should read my post, I said nothing of the sort. As a matter of fact, I don't charge for initial consultation. And I often refer potential clients to other lawyers when their problems involve areas of the law that I don't handle such as domestic relations. Many people who have come to consult with me have gotten solid referrals to lawyers who specialize in the area they need for free. Most of my colleagues handle things the same way. Maybe you had a bad experience with an attorney - it sure sounds like it. But most simply aren't like that, at least not those who serve the "consumer" segment of the market. NOBODY in the locale I practice (rural Arizona) can afford $200 to $600 an hour - $175 is about tops, and often it's lower than that. Also, like other lawyers in poor rural areas, a significant part of my practice involves court appointed cases where the pay is about $50 per hour. Sorry you have such a pathological dislike for lawyers. Did you get rejected when you applied to law school? Are you a doctor? Whatever, you seem to have little clue how most lawyers (not the corporate types who represent wealthy clients who they can bill endlessly by the hour) operate. We make a decent living, but anyone who becomes a lawyer because they want to get rich is a moron. Most lawyers, at least the ones who do primarily criminal defense like me, really enjoy helping people and keeping the government honest. But of course, you knew that already, right?

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Doctors don't charge as much as lawyers do.
    That depends on what you see the doctor for, and what type of doctor is seen. I had two back surgeries resulting from being the victim in two separate auto accidents. Pricetag? 20K a pop for the surgery. Not counting the anestologist. Not counting the hospital charges. Just the actual cutting me open and trimming the damaged disk (and scar tissue from the first surgery with the second surgery.) Their rates for the consult were lower, $75 a dr. visit, but the consults don't always last an hour. Espically after the initial consult when it's a yup, we need to do surgery. That type of consult lasts at most half an hour giving $150 hour price range. General practictioner's are higher in some cases depending on the ailment. I'm not going to say that the legal system is perfect. It is too expensive. But that comes from the expense to get the ability to practice law. $100K+ in debt is not uncommon comming out of law school.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#9)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Doctors don't charge as much as lawyers do.
    That depends on what you see the doctor for, and what type of doctor is seen. I had two back surgeries resulting from being the victim in two separate auto accidents. Pricetag? 20K a pop for the surgery. Not counting the anestologist. Not counting the hospital charges. Just the actual cutting me open and trimming the damaged disk (and scar tissue from the first surgery with the second surgery.) Their rates for the consult were lower, $75 a dr. visit, but the consults don't always last an hour. Espically after the initial consult when it's a yup, we need to do surgery. That type of consult lasts at most half an hour giving $150 hour price range. General practictioner's are higher in some cases depending on the ailment. I'm not going to say that the legal system is perfect. It is too expensive. But that comes from the expense to get the ability to practice law. $100K+ in debt is not uncommon comming out of law school.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#10)
    by ltgesq on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    As a criminal defense attorney, i can speak with some authority on this issue. No criminal lawyer i have met in ten years or practice limited to criminal defense has ever charged a fee for a consultation. In other areas of the law, the consultation actually is the legal service. Since we don't make anything, all we can do is charge for time and advice. If you have had an issue in the past with the fees that you have paid, you should note that most of us use a sort of mental floating flat fee arrangement. That is, if you have more money, you are charged a higher fee. I have tried murder cases for twenty thousand dollars, and several for free. Many, if not most people who do criminal defense work have a good portion of thier practice as pro bono. Oftimes we have clients that suffer a huge financial setback during representation. Other times, it becomes clear that the client simply cannot afford to pay the agreed upon fees. For many of these sorts of clients, i will adjust the fee to something they can afford. As long as a client pays me regularly, no matter how small the amount, i will stay on the case. Most of the lawyers i know that you might want to have representing you do the same. The others, well lets just say that they are usually not the sort fo people who put all their efforts into a case. As an aside, two lawyers i rent space from only practice family law. In the past year, 37% of all their billed time was bankrupted. They cannot repossess that divorce decree, nor can they take custody of the children. I remember once, this attorney spent over 15,000 worth of time trying to talk sense into a client and settle the custody and visitation issue they had. Over 55,000 dollars was billed by the two lawyers for what worked out to be an additional 30 minutes of visitation per week. That client filed bankruptcy in less than ten days.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    et al - I don't have a dog in this fight, I just want to say this is one of the reasons I love TL. Education and fun, all in one thread. BTW - My consulting fee is $150 an hour or $14,000 for four weeks, $10,000 for two weeks, plus expenses, just in case any of you have a sales group you think is under performing. Oh, I almost forgot. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. ;-)

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Jim, "Advice is usually worth what you pay for it." That's usually, but not always true. For example, the advice that public defenders, for free, and high priced mouthpieces, for $150 to $500 an hour, give to clients to keep their mouths shut and don't talk to the police is worth at least a million bucks (And most fail to follow it!).

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Do any of you legal eagles actually still believe that doctors get paid by the hour? ROTFLMFAO! OMG, talk about lower education! Get a clue boys and girls. MD salaries have DROPPED over 40% since the mid 90's. Their income is based upon what an INSURANCE Company (mostly Medicare driven) decides to pay. They expect a 4.5% drop in Medicare reimbursement JUST IN THE NEXT YEAR. Now I'm no fan or rich doctors who slash for cash. But legal wizards like Larry the Litigator are just outright lying to y'all.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    I'll wait for the hue and cry from the legal "humanitarians" when someone proposes universal legal representation! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    By the by, I spent 6 hours of my Thanksgiving holiday assisting on an emergent cervical spine stablization on an 80 y/o man who fell off a ladder and broke his neck. Manipulating metal instruments millimeters away from the man's fully exposed spinal canal, it was an 800 mg advil case. By my calculations I should get about $200 bucks for it, as the insurance carrier calculates that I am "entitled" to 13% of what an MD assist would make. Did I save the system any money? You bet your ass! Approximately 15% of my cases I never get paid for. Sorry to get so riled, but I hate misinformation, and that's exactly what certain litigators up thread are doling out today.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Big Tex, why don't you complain about your 40K car? Or is transportation more important to you than bladder function?

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Larry has raised several good points, but I would suggest he is an exception and not the rule. On my last crim case I had to shell out $2k BEFORE the lawyer would do anything, and most lawyers I know get paid up front. As far as PDs go, when I see them able to afford as nice a suit as the prosecutors do I'll believe we have a fair(er) system of justice. And to think that $$ or position doesn't have an effect on the system is just plain silly. When was the last time a poor person could decide when to surrender themselves? Or to have their lawyer there when they are booked? And knowing that every question you ask only runs up the bill negates being able to participate in your own defense to a large degree. And prosecutors know they can go for the max with poor people, and we'll deal to something we didn't do because we can't afford to take the chance, no matter how innocent we might be.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Doea anybody here actually read my posts or do they just skim them and criticize what they thought I said? Uh, Sailor, I explained exactly why criminal lawyers get their money up front and I did not say that I operated differently. Oh, and Che, just exactly what am I lying about? On the average, Doctors do have a higher income than lawyers. And I did not claim that doctors get paid by the hour as you seem to insinuate. Read things, more carefully folks. I guess there's a good reason why most people who apply to law school don't get in.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#19)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    why don't you complain about your 40K car?
    Gees Che, you must be worked up something fierce. Where did you come up with the idea I have an expensive car? Not only is it far from the truth, it is funny considering how I tell folks that I could not justify spending 30K on a car (the price the 1st house I lived in was 30K, hince the number.) Even more funny considering I HATE driving so called luxery vehicles. Never have liked the feel of driving one. For the record, I paid $13.5 K for my last car, which was market value, and paid 13K even for the car before that one. This is also the most expensive vehicle I have ever owned. Also, as with LTL, I never said Drs get paid by the hour, only broke down the price to an hourly rate.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    Che writes:
    They expect a 4.5% drop in Medicare reimbursement JUST IN THE NEXT YEAR
    Che, is that a drop in real dollars, or is it based on forecasted inflation?

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    Big Tex, Yes I focused a generalization on you. But that you get my point I know. Larry, They can charge whatever they want because insurance companies pay their freight. This is a flat out "falsehood". You people need to get your priorities straight. Jim, Claims submitted to Medicare (and other carriers) are submitted, and paid based upon a code that is assigned to each procedure (CPT). In addition, surgeons can calculate their claim based upon what are referred to as Relative Value Units. This allows for an increased payment rate based upon the complexity of a procedure. Medicare pays via a formula that was set years ago. The RATE of payment decreases, as in cardiac and general surgeries, or increases, as in dermatology and plastic surgery, citing the last 3 years. Practitioners are expected to make up the loss by increasing their number of procedures. This generates unnecessary procedures in borderline cases and encourages cutbacks in overhead, such as employeee salary and benefits. JM, Sorry to be OT.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#22)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    Yes I focused a generalization on you. But that you get my point I know.
    Fair enough Che, but leaving aside the disagreement, do you realise that your logic has a gaping flaw in it? You have limited your argument to patients who have insurance, and also to only drs who take insurance. I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Houston it's challening to find a GP who takes insurance without being a free or reduced fee clinic thus having an problem with access due to sheer numbers and quality problem. It is possible, but difficult. Just like an attorney can, they charge a flat rate for a consult (usually $60-$75) and then add to that rate expenses. Given that the time spent receiving care takes about half an hour, that comes out to $120-$150 an hour for work done. This creats significant problems with access to quality health care. Unlike with an attorney, bankruptcy for these cases is usually not an end result (the dr. gets paid), the lack of medical care is though.

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    Uh, Sailor, I explained exactly why criminal lawyers get their money up front and I did not say that I operated differently.
    You might want to be a bit more circumspect with the term 'criminal lawyers'. Instead of attacking others. why not address the fact that if you don't have $$, you don't get the same version of justice that folks with money do?

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    If money didn't make a difference in our legal system then rarl rove wouldn't be taking out loans. Jeebus, lawyer or not, who the heck in this country could argue against THAT!

    Re: Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    Big Tex, I'm not sure I followed your description, but to my knowledge here in my Socal community the local free clinic is mostly privately and some government funded, but don't quote me on that, cause I'm not up on their structure. Access is also difficult. But if someone is really sick, we treat them first, and worry about payment later. As it should be. Many uninsured patients that come through the OR's I work in end up qualifying for Medi Cal. In my work, I don't send bills to cash patient's, though I know many MD's do. I have what I call my "eat it" file.

    Isikoff: Rove Takes Out Line of Credit | 25 comments (25 topical)