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Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 11:01:22 AM EST
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by TChris

Even as President Bush tries to pump up support for a war that has claimed 2,000 American lives, John Kerry announced a specific proposal to begin bringing troops home. Noting that “it is essential to acknowledge that the insurgency will not be defeated unless our troop levels are drawn down,” Kerry called upon the president to bring home 20,000 troops over the Christmas holidays, after the December parliamentary elections. Kerry has said that it would be reasonable to return all the troops within 12 to 15 months.

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    Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas | 31 comments (31 topical)
    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    Will the terrorists stop murdering voters and elected officials as a New Years revolution? (and, slightly off-topic, why does the Left complain that the Iraqi police force isn't developing well, while simultaneously assuming the Iraqi police will be able to keep order if the U.S. withdraws in the near future?)

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    Will the terrorists stop murdering voters and elected officials as a New Years revolution? No, but that's nothing the U.S. troops can do much about anyway. At this stage the U.S. is a pretty minor player in the ongoing civil war in Iraq. (BTW, I think you mean "resolution", not revolution.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    From the post:
    Noting that “it is essential to acknowledge that the insurgency will not be defeated unless our troop levels are drawn down,” Kerry....
    So let me see.... We are in a war, but we can't win unless we lower our troop level.... After reading that, dear friends on the Left, is there any question in your mind as to why Kerry lost the election?

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    The text of Kerry's speech is available here: John Kerry - “The Path Forward”

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    et al (I can't resist...) "The Path Forward?" Let me guess, you must walk backwards... ;-)

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    Will the terrorists stop murdering voters and elected officials as a New Years revolution?
    {snicker} Maybe they'll stop murdering our soldiers, which I think is kinda the point.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    After reading that, dear friends on the Left, is there any question in your mind as to why Kerry lost the election?
    Plenty.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    Jim writes:
    Let me guess, you must walk backwards...
    Would this be the sort of backwards that is more what you had in mind, Jim?
    One aspect of the wrecking operation that the administration has undertaken is worth special attention—the destruction of some of the main schemes of cooperation that have been established since 1945 and are aimed at introducing some order and moderation into the jungle of traditional international conflicts.
    TTFN, Whizzy.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    Jim, Can you give examples of forward progress that has stablized the situation? And don't give me any "Constitution" crap. It has changed nothing. Insurgent attacks in Sept. 2004 - 60 per day Insurgent attacks in Sept. 2005 - 100 per day. Yeah, real progress. Nevertheless, I disagree with Kerry also. We should withdraw all troops now. A slow drawdown will result in higher US casualties. IMHO the insurgents will attack as long as there is ONE US soldier in Iraq. They will continue after we are gone, but the overall toll will be less than if we stay. There is no clean break. The violence will continue whether or not the US is present. Deal with it. This war was, as Gen. Odum put it, "The worst strategic blunder in the last century". It was based on lies and we will have to suffer the repercussions of this violent genocidal act for years to come. The only way we can avoid any major blowback is to impeach Bush and Cheney and demonstrate to the world population, the vast majority of who view this war as a unilateral aggression, that we hold these lying criminals accountable, and that war is not the MO of the America that we know and love.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    Che - We are at war. During war you have violence, attacks, etc. BTW - I love your assumpation that our leaving Iraq will make the world love us. That is truly funny. Do you want me to post what OBL said, again? Interview with OBL on 3/97 by Peter Arnett of CNN.
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: ...So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    So, who you gonna believe? Your leftie buddies or what you can read with your own eyes?? BTW - I don't believe we were in Iraq on 9/11. I don't believe we were in Afghanistan on 9/11... So how will or leaving fix anything? edgey - The sooner we get out of the UN, the better off we will be. It is a corrupt organization that deserves nothing but our contempt. Too bad you can't figure that out. Try thinking about it the next time your are giving a presentation. Imagine I'm in the back of the room grinning at the BS you pass out. Listen closely and you'll hear laughter, at you.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#11)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    BTW - I love your assumpation that our leaving Iraq will make the world love us. That is truly funny. I never said that you liar. You can say I assumed it and that also would be a lie. You should be banned, or at least limited to 4 useless comments per day. Quit making s**t up jerk. Is this what you look like?.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    And you still have not answered me intelligently. Where are your examples of forward progress? I won't hold my breath for that.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#14)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    It was based on lies and we will have to suffer the repercussions of this violent genocidal act for years to come. And you still have not answered me intelligently. Che, You throw genocide around like this, making it abundently clear that you have no idea what a real genocide would look like, and you expect to be taken seriously enough to be answered "intelligently"? You must be joking. This kind of talk is exactly what is wrong with the left today and why people like Bush are able to get elected in the first place. He is brilliant by comparison, and that's saying an awful lot considering how much of a dimwit the man appears to be. In the future, please restrict yourself to using only those words you actually know the meaning of. No one in this administration is attempting to eradicate the Iraqi people, either on a person by person basis, or on a cultural identity basis. On the contrary, it is the insurgents in Iraq and people like bin Laden who are attempting to force an overarching "muslim" identity on the people of Iraq, which means our forces are fighting against a genocide, not perpetrating one. As for Kerry's brilliant suggestion that we should bring all the troops home in the next 18 months: I have never been so glad that this idiot lost the election last year. John Kerry today epitomizes everything that has been wrong with the Democratic party since LBJ decided to cut and run in 1968 rather than finish the job he and his mentor JFK started. Whether you agree with the decision to go to war in Iraq or not, we have created a situation there which puts the Iraqi people in our hands to some extent. Running away from the job now would be dooming them all to another 40 or 50 years of fascism (another word the left likes to use but rarely shows any understanding of) and despair (another concept that leftist policies tends to create rather than ameloriate). If this is the kind of leadership the left will be offering next year and in 2008, Jeb Bush has a far better chance than I would have ever granted him.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    No one in this administration is attempting to eradicate the Iraqi people, either on a person by person basis, or on a cultural identity basis Tell that to the Sunnis Webster's: Genocide: The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, POLITICAL or SOCIAL GROUP. Justpaul's arrogance exceeds his contempt for those he disagrees with. Please enlighten me about how the lack of protection of Iraqs cultural centers, the bombing of mosques, the killing of tens and maybe over 100K civilians, the lack of water, the lack of electricity, the total CHAOS that reigns in Iraq (except the green zone) have not, at the very least nearly destroyed their cultural infrastructure. But alas, JP, Halliburton is there to rebuild a NEW Iraq. I would say that JP might have a different perspective if it were HIS neighborhood that was without water and electricity, the local schools, libraries and museums destroyed and looted, and subject to indiscriminate bombing at any moment. This is a cultural war as well as a geographical war. One small group of people make a hit on a complacent USA, and Bush ignites a regional conflict that has no regard for their cultural existence (and nothing to do with the WOT). This kind of talk is exactly what is wrong with the left today and why people like Bush are able to get elected in the first place. He is brilliant by comparison, Our Pet Chimp didn't get into power because he is smart. He got in because he is a wealthy criminal. Propped up by criminals. It's easy to win when you lie. At first.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    I received this email from Kerry's camp today. I'm glad he's still a voice, but as Che pointed out, Kerry isn't calling for a complete withdrawal. In fact, had Kerry won the Presidency, our troops would still be there. The rhetoric would be drastically different, but I doubt the count of American troops there would be much different. 2004 was a referendum on Iraq. Despite the disenfranchisement, disinformation, and election day shenanigans - a shameful percentage of Americans voted AGAIN for a liar - this time a liar with gallons of innocent blood on his hands. I'm not convinced we'll ever see the end of this Neocon Corporate garbage. Just different packaging.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    "In fact, had Kerry won the Presidency, our troops would still be there." There might be troops there, but there wouldn't be mercs, and there wouldn't be a concerted effort to cause civil war. Nor would there be a burgeoning airbase complex, attacks on Syria with the stated intention of changing (yet another legally-elected) president, or the further efforts to attack Iran, etc. Kerry DID win the election. We are in the midst of a second-term COUP, in case you are entirely unaware. Bush is a loser -- he has ALWAYS been a loser. The only way he wins an election is by fraud -- and on top of the fraud, the total unwillingness of the corporate media to confront his LIES.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    I'm not going to go round and round on this thread with this topic again, but forwarding the notion that Bush is entirely illegitimate as President gives people the erroneous image that there aren't a sizeable number of Americans who would be quick to vote for this kind of government of their own free will. Don't let those people off the hook, Paul. They're plentiful, powerful, and Progressives need to comprehend the culture battle they're facing to see a Progressive America realized.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    Che - Somebody pis* in your post toasties? You're not normally such an a*s. You write:
    You quote from my comments: BTW - I love your assumpation that our leaving Iraq will make the world love us. That is truly funny.
    You then write:
    I never said that you liar. You can say I assumed it and that also would be a lie.
    Okay. Let us see what you wrote:
    We should withdraw all troops now..... There is no clean break. The violence will continue whether or not the US is present. Deal with it... The only way we can avoid any major blowback is to impeach Bush and Cheney and demonstrate to the world population, the vast majority of who view this war as a unilateral aggression,
    So, we should withdraws all troops now and impeach Bush and Cheney and that will avoid major blowback. That is what you said. That is what you assume. Che, your attack is way, way, way out of line. Your own words prove it. Take two aspirins and apologize in the morning. BTW – In war it is not customary that you protect the “cultural” centers of the country you are invading. Che, war is about changing governments and the way a country acts. As you said, “Deal with it.” Justpaul – Very well said. PIL writes:
    Had Kerry asked me, I would have suggested a total withdrawal of National Guard by the end of the year. They are not trained for combat.
    Not trained for combat? PIL, that is one of the funniest statements you have made. Why do you think we have them? To distribute food in places where the mayor and Governor has screwed up? And your sympathy for them is a perfect definition of crocodile tears. As usual, you leave me laughing.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    ppj-
    So, we should withdraws all troops now and impeach Bush and Cheney and that will avoid major blowback.
    You are finally getting the idea. Must be the new pills, they seem to be working.
    So, we should withdraws all troops now and impeach Bush and Cheney and that will avoid major blowback.
    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    BTW - I love your assumpation that our leaving Iraq will make the world love us. That is truly funny. I neither said, implied or assumed that leaving Iraq, etc would cause the world to love us. You just made it up. You don't even twist. You just fabricate. Nothing better to do with your golden years? What a waste. Che, your attack is way, way, way out of line. Your own words prove it. Take two aspirins and apologize in the morning. Yes a description of "out of line" from the resident hypocrite. Wow somebody's feelin the heat. Best vacate the kitchen before you get burned. So, we should withdraws all troops now and impeach Bush and Cheney and that will avoid major blowback. That is what you said. That is what you assume. If I were religious it's what I would pray for.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Posted by Tampa Student: "forwarding the notion that Bush is entirely illegitimate as President" That's not a 'notion,' it is a FACT. " gives people the erroneous image that there aren't a sizeable number of Americans who would be quick to vote for this kind of government of their own free will." SO WHAT? A lot of Americans would have voted for Jefferson Davis. YOU are the one spreading the 'notions' that ignore John Kerry outing the USPNAC airbases scheme, and repudiating it, in front of 60 million Americans last Fall. "Don't let those people off the hook, Paul." Your strategic advice so far is worthless, and based on leftist propaganda. The refusal of Amy Goodman and others on the left to report Kerry's REPUDIATION of Bush policy last year is a permanent stain on leftist media, right up there with Nader's idiotic 'There's no difference' goofing around, that has gotten a LOT of people and soldiers killed.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Why is this man still talking? Why is this man still a senator? DING! John, your fifteen minutes are over. Again.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Che - Your own words prove you're wrong. All you have left is insults and attacks. Squeak - Got anything to really say?Didn't think so. Troll onward, troll onward. Both of you: If we left Iraq, what do you think would happen to: a. The people who are now forming a democracy. b. Anyone who may have shown some cooperation and friendship with any western person/government. You know the answer. So, I ask: Are you comfortable with them being killed, as was done in Vietnam after Congress folded to the pressure of the Left and cut and ran? Do you not understand that our actions in Vietnam, Somali, Lebannon has taught the killers of this world a lesson - that the Left will always force a political settlement. And that we are now paying the price of that lesson? Do you have no shame?

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Dizzy: All you have left is insults and attacks. The pain must be getting unbearable by now... TTFN, Whizzy.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Tell that to the Sunnis Okay Che, who is trying to eradicate the Sunnis? Do you even know who or what Sunni muslims are? Are you unaware that there are literally hundreds of millions of them all over the world? If so, are you honestly suggesting that this administration has a plan to kill all of them? Or is it just Iraqi sunnis you claim this administration is trying to eradicate? If so, please explain why we are working with them instead of just killing them all. How hard would it be to follow Clinton's example and just bomb them into oblivion from 15,000 feet like he did in Serbia (was that genocide too Che?). You list a dictionary definition of "genocide" but you either didn't read it, don't understand it, or are so out of touch with the facts in Iraq that talking with you on the subject is a total waste of time. No one is trying to eradicate the Sunnis as a political group, they have been invited into the government and are taking part in the reconstruction of Iraq. I know it's hard to see these things with your head so far up your ass, but your willful ignorance does not excuse your idiotic use of words you find attractive for political purposes only. I don't have any contempt for those I simply disagree with Che, and no matter how many times you repeat that lie it will never be true. What I have contempt for is those who profess to care so much about truth and freedom yet willingly distort all language to play their little political games and make wildly false accusations at every turn. If their is anyone here who has shown nothing but contempt for those with whom they disagree, it is you, and if anyone should be banned or limited to four comments a day, it is you. You bring nothing to the discussion but lies and insults. Like it or not Che, all you achieve by supporting people like Kerry is to ensure that anyone who actually cares about our future will vote against them. Because if people like you support them, they must not be worth voting for.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:27 PM EST
    Justpaul I believe that what the Bush administration is attempting to do in Iraq falls under the definition. I really don't care if you don't agree. JP's interpretation of genocide can only be applied when the job is done. I believe that there are also genocidal policies and genocidal behavior. War in itself is genocidal simply by it's actions. Since Iraq has no standing army to speak of, this is particularly true in that country. It's a war against a people, otherwise known as a social group. They don't have to be defined as some group in particular (sunnis - my mistake) or by any boundries, or by their religion. You have to look at the ACTS being perpetrated, and not whether the victims fall into a pre-defined group. Warhawks like Jim and Justpaul only find reasons to kill people. They are never looking for ways to NOT kill people. They write like they are so frightened, that they would have us believe that we are in mortal danger every minute and so we must kill or be killed. Well people, the world is not heaven, but you don't have to bomb whole towns 10k miles away to protect yourselves. From Jim: Your own words prove you're wrong. All you have left is insults and attacks Do you deny that you made up a false characterization of me? Remember, I began our little discussion with a straightforward question, which you never answered. Since, as is readily apparent to anyone who can read english, you had no answer, you concocted a false characterization as a hack response. This is your MO from the get go. So have at it. But you're wearing no clothes.

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    Che – Give it up. My comment captured the essence of your statements, perfectly. And, in case you didn’t notice, I agreed with justpaul’s comments. Besides, why would I answer such a question that says, the new constitution doesn’t count…I mean, really. edgey, how’s it going, dude? Kinda worried about you, no intelligent comments, just snarky attacks. Troll is as troll does, eh?

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    ppj- Comment deleted because of extreme profanity. (deletions my own)

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    Jim, Now I'm confused. Are you the troll that is or the troll that does?

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    Whizzy writes:
    edgey, how’s it going, dude? Kinda worried about you, no intelligent comments, just snarky attacks.
    There is a road, no simple highway, Between the dawn and the dark of night, And if you go no one may follow, That path is for your steps alone. Merry Fitzmas, Whizzy!

    Re: Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:29 PM EST
    Che - So you say you are confused. I believe you. Squeak wrote:
    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.
    Edgey wrote:
    Posted by edger at September 3, 2005 01:04 PM .”..might consider, though, that the real villian is a MSM and the Far Left...” This may get me kicked off this site, and I'll probably regret saying this later, but here goes... Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...
    Keep on trolling dudes, keep on trolling.

    Kerry: Bring Home 20,000 Troops By Christmas | 31 comments (31 topical)