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Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 01:15:43 PM EST
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Are you ready for the White Separatist Twins?.

Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans....Known as "Prussian Blue" — a nod to their German heritage and bright blue eyes — the girls from Bakersfield, Calif., have been performing songs about white nationalism before all-white crowds since they were nine.

"We're proud of being white, we want to keep being white," said Lynx. "We want our people to stay white … we don't want to just be, you know, a big muddle. We just want to preserve our race."

Not only is their song "Sacrifice" a tribute to Hitler Deputy Rudolf Hess, but they model and promote Happy Hitler t-shirts.

The video's producer is Michael Murrey. They have a weblog, forums and have been hired as models for Aryan Wear . If you'd like them to know what you think of them, why not send them an e-mail.

You can read an interview with the twins here.

Would you consider yourselves white supremacist or separatist, and why?
Lamb: White Nationalist or Separatist since a supremacist means that we would want to rule other races and to be honest, we just don’t want them around.
Lynx: We do think our race is different than other races in a lot of positive ways and that we have invented more things and done more for civilization. We don’t want to harm other races but we don’t want to have to take care of them or be around them either.

[Via Crooks and Liars who notes John Cole weighs in as well.]

< Catfight: Judith Miller and Bill Keller | Cheney to Visit Colorado Monday >

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    Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate | 81 comments (81 topical)
    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#1)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    We often see conservative authorities inventing ridiculous reasons for taking kids away from their parents because the kid's welfare/safety is in jeopardy. Will we see that happen in this case or is bigotry and moral/intellectual bankruptcy beneficial and integral to conservative values? Is blind hatred an essential family value?

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    trailer trash seeking publicity, not sure why you would want to oblige them

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    kth-Call them what you want, but ignoring them would be tantamount to saying that racism is only marginal in the US. Calling out racism is a far better strategy to stanch it than believing it will go just go away if we do not pay it any mind. Slavoj Žižek gives his take on the wall mentality that separates the 'us from the them' in terms of the recent NOLA disaster and the EEU' attempt to keep unwanted immigrants out. via truth out

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Still waiting for TL to notice left end racism from folks like Farrakhan and Sharpton. Or the anti-semitic bile of Cynthia McKinnon. There's plenty of racism to go around, and it doesn't have a specific location on the political dial.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    I have to agree with kth. There's no point in even getting into a discussion of this kind of idiotic nonsense in an online forum. It just gives bigots a place to spew, legitimizing a point of view that is probably better left on hate group bulletin boards and listservs.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#7)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    JR, Quick - how many millions of people died because of Al Sharpton?

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#8)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    “Quick - how many millions of people died because of Al Sharpton?”
    Well, let’s assume no one has died (seems safe); is it then benign? These young girls haven’t killed anyone, nor are they advocating anything remote. You know, as far as race motivated murder, these white supremacy or Nazi deifying groups are innocuous.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    James and charley are wondering why TL didn't post these girls' phone numbers so they can get some of that Tiger Beat KKK action. Work the email, put your Polish grandmother down, and don't forget to gush about Hitler. Rock on, because hatred is cool. Bush is the greatest president ever -- since Davis.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Conservatism as we know it today owes its existence to the backlash against the civil rights movement of the 60s. All conservatives are not racists, but were it not for racism, no conservative could ever get elected. But the pervasiveness, the ubiquity, really, of racism in this country is itself the very reason why we can't allow cartoon racists to stand for the phenomenon as a whole. It's too easy for less obvious, but very real, racists to distance themselves from clowns like David Duke.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Just another example of human beings devaluing other human beings to promote themselves (and their egos) without any merit. Holding a personal philosophy of racial purity is inherently "racist" (whether nominal or radical). Going out and trying to garner support and/or start a movement for racial purity is hatemongering. That's true regardless of which race is doing it, by the way. While White Supremicists (nazis, klan, etc.) and radical Black Muslims are easy to identify, it's harder to see the tendency towards a philosophy of racial purity for many Americans (not just White Southerners or White Racists, but the same goes for Asians, East Asians, Arabs, African Americans, etc.) People would rather lump the entire subject into a discussion over race, but it is far more difficult to seperate devotion to racial purity from a devotion to culture, religion, ideology, Socioeconomic status, -- even language. Sometimes they are one in the same - and other times they are not. Judaism, for example is often spoken of in seperate context as a race, a culture, or one in the same. What is it? Can it be both? I for one have a hard time understanding how exactly it is a group of people can honestly say they do not devalue a person that they truly believe "God" will throw into a pit of eternal hellfire. Further, I believe that the disproportionate economic status -- clearly visible between races and groups in America`-- is the primary motivator behind the "banning together" of the disenfranchised groups in America. Obviously, this is the result of generations of Government-endorsed racism and discriminatory laws. Even in individual circumstances where this reality has been corrected, the residual hatred and distrust will continue -- rightfully so - trust must be earned, especially in cases where no reparations (monetary or otherwise) have been made. Adam Smith would not approve, if he were going to be true to his own writings.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Of course, the problem for these kiddies is that if the real nazis took over, lower class whites would be quick to follow the racial "undesirables" into the ovens. But they don't see this because they are too busy trying to identify with the power structure any way they can, even though that power structure will still kill them when they are no longer of use. And this is not theory, this is historical reality.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    it's hard to think the page is not a parody. for instance, it's titled "the sole of our race" as if these shirts represent the bottom of the feet of white people.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Quick - how many millions of people died because of Al Sharpton?
    I don't think Al Sharpton is directly responsible for the seven people who were incinerated in Freddy's Fashion Mart, but a large number of people think he helped along what happened. I note that the "Final Solution" was advocated on CSPAN last week. And, I note other instances of racism and politicians. I'm sure TL will be discussing those in the near future.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#15)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    BMB, You are joking, right?

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#16)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    I cringe when white people talk about "white pride" and the like but I also cringe when black people do the same. The father of Tiger Woods said it best when they asked him about his multi-racial son's ethnicity; "the human race" was his wonderful answer.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Well if that article is true I hope the market does the right thing and rejects this patently fabricated duo. I'm not sure which I'm more disgusted with, thier corporate manufacture or that they may be Aryan clones. They were on the Disney Channel last evening and exposed on Disney owned ABC the next day. A network feeding on itself or a publicity stunt? Who knows? Where was the outrage the last time a few 'Hip-Hop' artists said racist things about 'Whitey' or Jews or were condemned for thier misogeny? Apparently you are to be forgiven for your prejudice if it is aimed at the correct social group. Just Saying...

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    jc-so you are lamenting because the girls are not quite the real thing, a little too watered down for you, eh? Most people who spew racist hate are condemned. Hip hop artists are routinely condemned. When the ruling 'race' spews hatred it is especially bad because it is more likely to be turned into legislation, on the street or in congress. We have seen this sort of thing happen many times throughout our illustrious history of 'civilization'.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    The sh** jimcee's talking about (the anti-Semitic remarks of Public Enemy sideman Professor McGriff) happened in 1991, for pete's sake. Indefensible, but I'm not aware of similar incidents since then (disclaimer: I'm only familiar with top 40 rappers like 2Pac, Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, 50 Cent, et al). But maybe jimcee is more of a hiphop expert than I am, and can cite specific recordings that support his accusations.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#20)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    “Most people who spew racist hate are condemned. Hip hop artists are routinely condemned.”
    This is just not so. It’s human nature to ignore the character deficits in folks you might relate to, or otherwise align with ideologically; and nearly everybody does it. Take for example the recent TalkLeft Kanye West thread. I mocked Kanye for his remarks at Live 8 about the worldwide white conspiracy that introduced HIV to Africa and crack to American ghettos and projects. This kind of crap belongs in the dustbin with old canards like the money grubbing Jew coveting power or the lazy and ignorant Mexican or black predisposed to crime. You might think folks here would appreciate the heads up about he uglier side of Kanye. Instead, I am called a racist and treated to some of the most prejudice and bigoted crap TalkLeft has let stand; i.e., “We have learned from life experiences that you folks will screw us at the first possible opportunity.” So anyway, lay down with dogs …

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#21)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    PW, It is also sad that many leftists, who would never make an anti-black, hispanic, or sexist comment feel free to spout anti-semitism. Israel has many problems, and is not perfect, but what country is?

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#22)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    BTW- The explanation above for "Prussian Blue" is a bunch of BS. Prussian Blue is used to make blueprints, and was also a side product of the gas chambers at Oswiencim (Aushwitz).

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    Conspiracy theories about the powerful: regrettable and wrong, but not racist. Pointing out that the powerful are overwhelmingly white and male and act mostly in their own interests: perfectly understandable, and not even remotely racist. Accusing others of racism: justified when true, unfortunate and wrong when false, not racist in either case. Anti-Zionism: wrong imo, but not necessarily anti-Semitic. Wingnuts, please print this and put it on your refrigerator so we don't have to have this tedious discussion every couple of weeks.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Squeaky wrote:
    jc-so you are lamenting because the girls are not quite the real thing, a little too watered down for you, eh?
    You know, I very carefully read jimcee's comment, and it said absolutely nothing like you write. Squeak, why do you write things like this? Why did you attack Rove because his grandfather was a German and in the army??

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    “Conspiracy theories about the powerful: regrettable and wrong, but not racist.”
    I’m sure the rank and file Jew didn’t know about the planed Zionist grab for power either. It’s too bad the final solution couldn’t discriminate between the ‘international Jew’, that is, the well funded well connected politico, and the average Jew who simply benefited from the conspiracy.
    “Pointing out that the powerful are overwhelmingly white and male and act mostly in their own interests: perfectly understandable, and not even remotely racist.”
    How progressive that you should make the distinction; too often the ‘liberal’ view is that they act in their own interest (and others of the same gender and skin color) because they are white and male. Again, I refer you to another commenter on this board that not only got a pass on his racist rant, but explicit support by other folk here. “We have learned from life experiences that you folks will screw us at the first possible opportunity.” The hypocrisy here is maddeningly idiotic. Some white trash says the equivalent and it is roundly condemned, some brown guy says it and it is forcefully defended. Wrong is wrong, not matter what your skin color or gender.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    This is such a sad story, they are just kids, children and are being brainwashed by their mum. This will be a good one to follow up on in 10 15 and 20 years...

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    It’s too bad the final solution... I really don't see much danger of a large-scale anti-Semitic political movement in this country. But since anti-Semites like Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan are both more popular and more plugged into the power structure than Farrakhan or Sharpton or anyone else on the left, if that terrible wave ever materializes, we'll know who to thank for it.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ at October 20, 2005 06:55 PM

    I also note that you, again, rush into a comment that doesn't involve you. Just can't resist an attack, eh? Oh well, we don't need market research to understand you. You have already defined yourself.

    Link Gee, PPJ, it's horrible for me to rush into a comment that doesn't involve me, but it's okay if you do so in regards to squeaky and jc? Pot, calling the kettle, pot, calling the kettle, please copy for your new name, coming up shortly.......

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#29)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    “…if that terrible wave ever materializes, we'll know who to thank for it.”
    Classic, just so you know where to point that finger (and it’s some white guy). Racism and bigotry are bankrupt ideologies and the folks that follow them will reap the consequences. The black community (whoever that is) can tolerate these folks to their own injury, and the left can give them cover. It's transparent and most folks see it for what it is, naked hypocrisy. But if you can be proud because your bigots are less harmful, then bravo.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Racism and bigotry are bankrupt ideologies Morally, you are right; politically, racism has kept the GOP in business for the last 40 years.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    TS-I agree. If we could only eliminate race, religion, and other 'difference', from our discussions things would become crystal clear. The real issue is about power and how it is used to marginalize those without it. Who has power at any given moment and how they wield it is a discussion that can yield real answers and solutions. Angela Carter pointed out in a panel discussion, where quite a representative mix of unempowered (but well known) intellectuals were arguing about which group was the most oppressed, that it is terribly counter productive and decisive to get all caught up in irrelevant details. As an example she pointed to the American women's movement that at one time embraced all women, regardless of their background. When white women started to make headway in terms of higher pay and equal acceptance they distanced themselves from the non whites and took on the attitudes of their oppressors, and the movement fell apart. Her book The Sadeian Woman is a great read. She suprisingly embraces the Marqui de Sade who wrote about the dynamics between the ones who have power and those who do not. The current torture bill that Bush is threatening to Veto and our widespread use of torture at prison camps is a good example of power relations and how they trump class race, religion and of course reason. As I mentioned above Slavoj Žižek's recent piece The Subject Supposed to Loot and Rape: Reality and fantasy in New Orleans is about power dynamics. It is short and well worth reading.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Racism will be around as long humans walk this earth- the best you can hope to do is what you'd teach your children about other types of sh!t lying of the sidewalk- try not to get any on you... People, being cultural animals with the innate desire to belong, will always feels safe around others "like them," at first for protection, then, as always, to gain advantage over "the others." You see it in the playground, before children are ever taught racism- they still instinctively cling to what is familiar and reject the unfamiliar or the different, and in a brutal "Lord of the Flies" manner that would shock the most seasoned observer, at times. As with fear of fire, cravings for sugar and fat and the lust for carnal pleasure, Racism is as human as any other trait and will never be eliminated as long as there are groups of people who can claim a similarity or common ground in differing from "the others." You see it in Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter, and thousands of other idiots who either believe the filth they spew or spew it "to belong." They are cowards, and despicable cretins who appeal to the lowest common demoninator, that being the most mentally deficient and/or immoral characters in the crowd. America, meet Christ's Jerusalem...or Hitler's Germany, or Cortez' Mexico...same tunes, different singers.... Let's not be too shocked at these two little blonde idiots...what else do you expect from Rush, Anne and George's America?

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#33)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Until I got to the bottom half I was saying "bravo" to you. It was brilliant up until the Rush Limbaugh reference, then the ridiculous ending ..... These are bit players in the propagation of racial tensions in this country. Drug policy, crummy public schools, slumlords and the music industry have alot more to do with the condition of black people in this country than a few conservative talking heads. Nice try.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    I can only say that Sqeaky needs to chill a bit. Yes, racism is a fact of life everywhere in the world but it doesn't mean that corporations need to promote this kind of crap whether it is two Aryan clones or the likes of many Hip-Hop artists. But racists on both sides like this kind of crap hence the defense of the most malign of some of these 'artists' on this thread. Racism is 'color-blind' so to speak because everyone has thier own prejudice. Kth on the otherhand is just perfect, just read his/her posts and everyone will be enlightened. Oiks, all.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    jimcee - I wasn't trying to sell you anything, just giving my point of view. As for Rush, you're way off base, in my own humble opinion. I can't say I know if he is part of the cause or just the symptom of America's decay, but he does have an impact on the national discourse if millions of "Ditto-heads" use him as their primary news source. FoxNews is in the same boat - I don't know if they're part of the cause or just another symptom. Again, when the most-watched cable "news" program actively deceives whatever hapless viewer believe their crap, it is more than just 'bit player' politics. The Swift Boats could never have sunk Kerry if millions of racists/neocons/hicks hadn't swallowed that pap either deliberately or out of ignorance. The cheering and hooting of FoxNews' camouflaged cowboys, while sickening to me personally as they whooped in their imbedded HumVees speeding across the desert during Shocking and Flawed, must have had some impact on the average American, wouldn't you agree? While your compliments on the first half of my comment are appreciated, I was certainly not trying to sell you "It's Rush's fault." His personal responsibility is his own business, but you can't slough him off with the epithet "irrelevant." That is one thing he isn't.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    Posted by Laughing Jack: "Racism will be around as long humans walk this earth" Wow, another massive untruth. It is UNDENIABLE that there is less racism in the world today than two hundred years ago. In the last fifty years we have the term 'genocide,' and a Genocide convention, in a world body that may actually at some point in the next hundred years provide protection for persons facing such destruction, and punishment for racist governments. For you to spread that cynical lie is counterproductive. Racists are dying out, though regrettably we have to wait for them to do so. These twins are atavisms, and that's why it is news. It is almost absurd. Eventually this sort of racist indoctrination of children will be a thing of the past, and the KKK is TERRIFIED of that day.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    If only that were true, Paul...as a person of mixed race descent, I see just much racism in the world as I did thirty years ago. It has changed, mind you, to a more insidious, hidden racism, with code words like "family values" and "real American," but it is there. Racism fuels the Republican Party, and you know it. What has happened is that you think the Racists have disappeared. Well, they have- behind gated communities and into lavish "new cities" like the one being built in Orlando. They are still sitting on their porches in the South, and they're still sipping cocktails in Martha's Vineyard. Evil hidden is not Evil Banished, Paul...you should know better if you're older than 25...

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    Darkly - You're doing good...now, if you just knew what thread you were on... et al - Anyone think about calling/emailing Disney and ABC??

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    Darkly - You're doing good...now, if you just knew what thread you were on...
    And your evidence that I don't is............? TTFN, Whizzy.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    This is in reference to a post by pigwiggle way back at the beginning of the thread about how White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis are "innocuous". Oh really? Then why have law enforcement agencies broken up 60 attempted terrorist acts by these innocuous types in the last 10 years? That is way more tries at killing tens of thousands of people then we have seen by all of the jihadis. But as a cop I'm sure pigwiggle knows quite a few comrades that think along the WP line, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that he would like to draw attention away from the anti-government, pro-White supremacy factions that exist in large numbers here in the "Heartland". I got the statistic I used from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Go check it out, it might just make you change your mind about who exactly wants to destroy this country, the Islamofascists or the White Power fascists.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    jimcee, racism and prejudice are not the same thing. We all have our own prejudices about many things, and not all of them dealing with race. Racism is defined as having a racially motivated political and/or social agenda with the power to implement it. This isn't my definition but a scholarly definition. If you have a problem with the fact that white folks are still the powerful in this country it isn't my job to placate you, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that White people are the perpetrators of racism in this country and the rest of us minorities are incapable of garnering enough power to ever become racists. You may not like it, but yet again get over it. Minorities aren't racists. They may be heavily prejudiced against the majority race in this country but don't have the political or social power to do anything about it. It is funny to me all of this hullabaloo is over the vitamin D production levels in humans. And that is all race is anyway, how much or how little vitamin D is synthesized in groups of people. This production is helped or hindered by the amounts of melanin in the skin, which is what gives us of color in our skin.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    Here's the direct link to what Shermbuck was discussing. To paraphrase the late Douglas Adams: It must be some strange usage of the word innocuous that I've not previously encountered.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#43)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    I love the way Shermbuck unintentionally let the cat outta the bag when he was discussing the inability of minorities to excercise majority status. "To ever become racists." Doesn't every group want to be on top of the heap? To generalize about "white" people and to assert that pigmentation is all that seperates people(according to Dr. Shermbuck) is offensive to me. You've been thinking about this too much. Get a life.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    I love the way LWW intentionally let the cat out of the bag with his attempt to make a racist spin of a simple statement about Vitamin D production in Homo Sapiens. I'd also like to point out that Shermbucks point about Right Wing terror, as established by the link to the SPLC remains unrefuted.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#45)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    The SPLC is as trustworthy as a link to the RNC. Just spin. Where are these phantom legions of white supremacists? Do you think the news media would sit on such a story? These are angry castrated white males, lower income, with no real power. Talk about a red herring...

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm) n. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. racism n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#47)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:19 PM EST
    That's your big shut-up and think about it post? In the history of the world it's never been that simple. Look at South America and Africa to see your definition shot to pieces. Tribalism is better.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    These girls have clearly been brainwashed by their uneducated, trailer trash parents. White supremists are frightened and narrow minded. It is sad that such people are allowed to have children, they should not be allowed to breed. I am digusted that the media are giving them this much publicity, hopefully they will be shunned back to Hicksville where they and their brainless parents come from.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#49)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    SB-
    “ … White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis are "innocuous". Oh really? Then why have law enforcement agencies broken up 60 attempted terrorist acts by these innocuous types in the last 10 years?”
    This was in response to the insinuation that these groups are responsible for millions of deaths. They aren’t, although they may deify folks that are. There are many groups of folks around the world fomenting and perpetrating ethnically motivated violence. These groups are disproportionately represented in the Middle East and Africa.
    “But as a cop I'm sure pigwiggle knows quite a few comrades that think along the WP line,”
    I’m not a cop.
    “, racism and prejudice are not the same thing”
    And bigotry; a markedly intolerant person devoted to their own prejudices, likely racial. You are a bigot, intolerant, hateful, prejudice.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    Somethat off-topic, but speaking of racism, etc., I saw a report on ABC last night regarding race and the rebuilding of New Orleans. The report said 50% of the black population that fled the city have decided not to return, and that of the Mexicans who have been pouring into the city, most, if not all of them, plan to stay permanently. New Orleans looks to be in the midst of a rapid and permanent sea-change from a primarily black city to a mixed or even primarily latino one. Wages for unskilled labor (swinging a sledge hammer for demolition) were as high as $17/hour - much higher than both the pre-hurricane prevailing wage and minimum wage. The city's (creole) mayor was discussing ways to stem the tide of the Mexicans. A black contractor said he'll only hire fellow blacks. I'm sure we'll see the ACLU litigating against such speach and practices.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:38 PM EST
    in response to the comments on New Orleans, I live in london and a documentary on the after effects was on last night. The neglection and sheer denial from the rest of America was absoloutly disgraceful. False informationm that hospitals had been evacuated and crime rates had risen was swarming radio reports. The truth was that Bush's denial of the South was inhumain, only proving that racism is very much alive and well, more so in America than probably any other country in the world.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#52)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    “only proving that racism is very much alive and well, more so in America than probably any other country in the world.”
    Interesting; I was reading a Guardian article just yesterday about the overwhelming English dislike for French, something like 80+%. You know, disliking someone based solely on their nationality is racism. Some of the most racist sentiments I have heard were from Europeans; take for example the popularity of the Dutch FPO. Anyway Tanya, look into your London slums and tell me they aren’t disproportionately brown and Muslim. Perhaps it’s comforting for you to dwell on America’s racial disparities, but for a Londoner to claim America is probably more racist than any other country is straight up ignorant and hypocritical.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    PW-That is called nationalism. Something you are exhibiting here as you defend America's racism problem. Could it be that you have never been on the receiving end of racism?
    the overwhelming English dislike for French, something like 80+%.
    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#54)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    tanya B, So you spent an hour or two watching a documentary in London about Katrina and now you feel you know America. How sad for you. Tell me that, as a Englishwoman, you have no predjudices regarding your fellow countrymen the Welsh or Scots, for example. And they're not even, ostensibly, a different "race." Actually, whether you are wrong or right is immaterial. Because, guess what? If Britain were the US, and the US were Britain, we would level the same criticism at Britain. And if you were me and I were you, I'd be making the same criticism about you. Do you get the point? Here's a little phrase more of the prototypical insufferable and arrogant Brits like you ought to try to embrace - "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#55)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Squeaky-
    “That is called nationalism.”
    Dislike of a specific nationality or ethnic group is not nationalism. Nationalism is an undeserving or unreasonable exaltation of ones nation above all others; something I certainly haven’t done here. I don’t deny deep roots of racism in the US and significant racial disparity. I do take exception to a European calling the US probably the most racist country in the world. Europe has extremely significant problems, more significant than the US. I’m certainly prepared to argue the point. And before you start, take note of the riots currently raging in the black Muslim slums of Paris.
    “Could it be that you have never been on the receiving end of racism?”
    It wasn’t too long ago that I was told on this very board that given the opportunity I would ‘screw’ black folks because I am (at least I was assumed) white. As a white man I have suffered negative discrimination in employment. More recently have been forced to endure harassment and threats of violence from a colleague who would, I am certain, have immediately been terminated if she weren’t female and black. Almost daily I hear white and male used as a pejorative, even from close acquaintances and friends. Certainly none of this rivals the pervasive social and institutionalized racism past generations of black folks endured in the US. But it doesn’t make it just or acceptable; it’s as wrong and as repugnant.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Thank you 'Pigwiggle', I am sure as a Guardian reader that you are up to date on how the Labour party feel about eurosceptics , but you should also take into acount that this is a bias newspaper. I would also like to remind you that Britain did not supress the French by torturing, segregating or enslaving them. In fact, if I walked through any of the poorer areas, (thankfully there are few slums in London), you will see that the muslims e.t.c are living with the white British. Entitled to the same benefits, council homes and jobs. The poorer areas are are equally filled with every race, if anything there is more of a class divide than anything. America is still very much divided in areas, with slums normally being filled with African Americans or latino originated families. The stigma that still rests in the hands of such people as Mrs. Bush and the overwhelming ignorant population of the bible belt is shocking. I think you will find if you delve further into British history that the 'so-called' hatred for the French is more historical than anything else. Britain has enjoyed hundreds of years of racial integration feeling little bitterness, more than I can say for America.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#57)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Tanya-
    “, but you should also take into acount that this is a bias newspaper.”
    As I’m quite aware; but are you suggesting that they incorrectly reported the results of a study they neither conducted nor commissioned?
    “I would also like to remind you that Britain did not supress the French by torturing, segregating or enslaving them.”
    I’m not sure what your point is. Should the researchers have queried the English attitude toward the Irish instead, or the Indians and Pakistanis?
    “The poorer areas are are equally filled with every race, if anything there is more of a class divide than anything.”
    It’s something to strive for, but hardly the truth. If London is anything like the rest of the United Kingdom … · More than half of children in Pakistani and Bangladeshi households - and a half of the children in Black households - are in low income households. · People of African, Bangladeshi, Caribbean and Pakistani descent are all twice as likely as White people to be out of work but wanting work. · Although the rate of permanent exclusions for Black Caribbean pupils has halved in recent years, they are still three times more likely to be excluded as White pupils. · Black young adults are seven times as likely as white young adults to be in prison. · Black adults are twice as likely not to have a bank or building society account as the population as a whole Courtesy poverty.org.uk .
    “… the overwhelming ignorant population of the bible belt is shocking”
    I should point out that these ‘overwhelming ignorant’ folks in the so-called bible belt are disproportionately black.
    “Britain has enjoyed hundreds of years of racial integration feeling little bitterness, more than I can say for America.”
    Good lord, either you are delusional or the UK public schools have painted a very rosy picture of UK history. I say this as a citizen of a former UK colony.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one I am not sure if you have ever been to England or even picked up a book on it that is more recent than a hundred years old, if so then you would know that there is no animosity between the Welsh, Scots and British. If anything the relationship is stronger than ever as Scotland have seats in our Parliament and vote in British elections. As an Englishwoman I can safely say that I do not hold any prejudices towards my fellow countrymen. I'm sorry but I think you are on your own there trying to justify the hatred amongst the races. I am happy to say that Britain is nothing like America in that there is little racial tension. This warped perception of Europe being on a par with America is ignorant and frankly, quite sad. I understand that you are trying to justify the ongoing divide in your country, but I would take a look into Britains current affairs before making such assumptions

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    tanya B. I spent some time in the late '80s at the University of Manchester. There were, of course, many english, welsh and scots in the classes. You are either woefully uninformed or trying to BS your way through this conversation. Either way, you are wrong.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    Have you ever wondered why so many black boys are excluded from schools? I have been taught at school that many more teenage black boys are more disruptive than white boys, I can safely say that it is bacause of the lack of a strong male role in the home. Is it possible that this viscious cycle is due to a lack of education, thus leading to them being less likely to get a well paid job, resulting in crime. It is also rather narow minded to pressume that I am privately educated.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    to sarcastic unnamed one You have surely just proved my point that we all live in harmony as you had first hand experience of this at Manchester. Please do tell me in what way I am uninformed about the country I live in.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:39 PM EST
    I do take exception to a European calling the US probably the most racist country in the world.
    Sure sounds like nationalism to me: How dare those English suggest that America.... And the French.... BTW-The English dislike for the French is by definition Nationalism.
    As a white man I have suffered negative discrimination in employment. More recently have been forced to endure harassment and threats of violence from a colleague who would, I am certain, have immediately been terminated if she weren’t female and black.
    Poor baby!! being harassed is not any fun. At least you do not have to deal with it on a daily basis. Imagine, as a child, having your parents tell you that under no circumstances are you to run in the streets because you will either be shot or arrested. That is a daily part of life for some Americans.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    tanya B, this is getting tiresome. There was significant and ingrained predjudice among the english, welsh and scots. Not to mention similar predjudices toward the chinese students at Manchester College. Not riots between the groups, of course, but predjudice just the same. I don't think there is anything left to say to you, apparently your mindset is so provincial that you are blinded by it.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#64)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    "I should point out that these ‘overwhelming ignorant’ folks in the so-called bible belt are disproportionately black." Maybe I'm missing something here, p-wiggles, but this remark looks pretty ridiculous to me. Reading it, one would think that African-Americans run things in, say, North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee, etc. Which of course they far from run things. It isn't black Alabama state legislatures trying to purge public libraries of 'homosexual themes'; it wasn't black voters whom Rove targeted in 2000 with push polling, insinuating McCain had sired a 'black baby'--thus simultaneously locking up that primary form Dubya and speaking directly to the character of the Sotuh Carolina electorate.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    to sarcastic unnamed one You have surely just proved my point that we all live in harmony as you had first hand experience of this at Manchester. Please do tell me in what way I am uninformed about the country I live in.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    Sarcastic unnamed one There are more languages spoken in London than anywhere else in the world. Britain disliking the French is not racism, they do not want them to be wiped off the planet, it is mutual, but nothing is ever plainly said to oneanother. Hatred is a very strong word. I am just amazed at your ignorance on the Sottish, Welsh and British. You lived here for a short period over 15 years ago whatever rift there was before has well and truly gone.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#67)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    Tanya-
    “Please do tell me in what way I am uninformed about the country I live in.”
    I’ll say it. You claim that there is only a nominal racial-economic disparity in London or the UK. I provided you with some very striking statistics proving exactly the opposite. What do you have to say? Squeaky-
    “Poor baby!! being harassed is not any fun.”
    I didn’t offer my experience; you solicited it. Don’t act as if I asked for your sympathy, rather you directly asked me for my experience. Also, in asking you insinuate that if I haven’t been the victim of racism I can’t understand how it is bad or how bad it is. It is a ridiculous notion; I haven’t been struck in the head with a hammer but I can easily tell you I’d rather not, and further, I have enough empathy not do it to anyone else. With your ‘degrees’ of racism reasoning we can easily discount the discrimination suffered by other minorities in the US. How callous would you consider your self satisfied mockery if it was directed toward an ethnically Arab American. “Poor baby!! being harassed is not any fun.” So he wasn’t hired because of anti-Arab sentiment, it could be worse; he could live in London instead of Portland.
    “Sure sounds like nationalism to me: How dare those English suggest that America.”
    You are twisting unusually hard today. A true nationalist could selectively parse my comments as you have, but instead show my ‘disdain’ for America. Clearly, anyone with a bit of sense would characterize my affront more as ‘the pot calling the kettle …’ Glanton-
    “Maybe I'm missing something here, p-wiggles, but this remark looks pretty ridiculous to me.”
    I was just trying to show Tanya how inappropriate is to characterize an entire swath of the country. The situation is far more complicated than a bunch of white male religious bigots pulling the strings in Washington. It’s the same old red/blue state meme, and folks here may sympathize but I’d rather not dignify it with much argument. You betray a bit of it yourself when bringing up attitudes toward homosexuals. While black folks may overwhelmingly vote for Democratic candidates they are disproportionately opposed to legal homosexual marriages. The reason folks stereotype is to reduce the world to manageable relationships, but in stereotyping the so-called bible belt as overwhelmingly ignorant, white, and conservative is unnecessarily reductive, and misses significant nuance.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#68)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    pigwiggle: Yes I am aware of the rampant homophobia throughout this nation and that this includes significant portions of the African-American community. All of which is very sad, and perhaps will persists forever, but at the same time illustrates why civil rights should never be put to a vote. As you have discussed your wife numerous times I assume you are heterosexual, as am I, as are the vast majority of Americans. Unlike you however I have a dog in the fight whenever civil liberties are on the line; they don't have to be coming after me personally before I see them for the scum that they are. Anywho, I'd like to add that the most depressing thing about the line that you take consistently on TL is that white redneck bigotry is merely a myth in this country. Perhaps you don't get out much. I don't know why you don't see this for the significant voting block that it is, but I grew up around these guys and live around them still, and they are there, and they have clout. Matthew Shepard was not killed by the media, for example. But you know all this. The fact is because the GOP lowers taxes and you despise social programs you want to mitigate their hostility to civil liberties unless they come after your dope (I smoke too, but the point is, I see past the end of my nose and you apparently do not). Never have I said that every white Southerner is a bigot; far from it--I, for example, am a white Southerner who doesn't need an 'Other' to degrade so that I can feel superior.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#69)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    “Unlike you however I have a dog in the fight whenever civil liberties are on the line; they don't have to be coming after me personally before I see them for the scum that they are.”
    I support nearly unrestricted personal liberty. Perhaps you are confusing liberty with special privilege.
    “Anywho, I'd like to add that the most depressing thing about the line that you take consistently on TL is that white redneck bigotry is merely a myth in this country.”
    This is a blatant mischaracterization; dig up the posts that show as much. You know, put up or shut up.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#70)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    On a related note, it is fun watching GOP sympathizers dip their toes into this thread. They either: 1)Feign outrage at the twins, which is pretty funny, almost as funny as their feigned 'outrage' at the 'OFF scnadal'; or 2)More tellingly, they obfuscate things by spinning it back to giving examples of black racists. In the case of numero 2, one can only laugh and perhaps use the occasion to remember that time and death aren't really so depressing after all. The suggestion that white racism and black racism in this nation operate on anything resembling equal planes is the height of stupidity, yet the pundits push it all the time.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#71)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    pigwiggle, on this very thread you write: "The situation is far more complicated than a bunch of white male religious bigots pulling the strings in Washington." Which is true, but only half true, as it demands the rejoinder that the scenario does indeed represent a healthy portion of the electorate; just watch FOX News sometime, brother. You do this all the time--the implication is that the 'stereotype' does not exist. But oh, it does. No amount of spinning will eliminate it from existence. "Perhaps you are confusing liberty with special privilege." No, actually, I'm not. Two consenting adults oughtn't need your or anyone else's permission to screw. You may be among the deluded who think that the gay rights issue stands on marriage, but it does not. The anger over _Lawrence v Texas_ is far more telling.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#72)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    “You do this all the time--the implication is that the 'stereotype' does not exist. But oh, it does. No amount of spinning will eliminate it from existence.”
    First, you really need to give the ‘you do this all the time’ or ‘the line you most consistently take’ crap a rest. My characterization (something I believe the TL archives support); my consistent line is maximum personal liberty for all, and certainly above all I argue for ideological consistency. This may be uncomfortable for the folks here who like to b!tch about the war but voted to put the man who signed the orders in the presidency, or those who decry racism and sexism but abide the same from specific groups (ironically defined by sex and ethnicity).
    “as it demands the rejoinder that the scenario does indeed represent a healthy portion of the electorate”
    I really have no idea. Certainly stereotypes don’t exist in a vacuum. If you’ve lived throughout the bible belt you’ve had a better opportunity than I have to form an opinion. But you can’t fault me for pointing out to a woman in London that her narrow reduction of a place she knows of from a single documentary is just that, a narrow reduction. Especially when she would have us believe that her country stand in stark contrast, an exemplar.
    “You may be among the deluded who think that the gay rights issue stands on marriage, but it does not.”
    It’s certainly a big piece. The federal government provides a host of set asides special considerations, lawful protections, and so forth for heterosexual couples. I think it is an issue of equal protection. An impartial observer might get the idea that heterosexual couples are somehow a protected class.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#73)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    "I really have no idea." That's really freakin' sad, man, and a big part of the problem with this electorate. Somehow the myth ios perpetrated that bigotry doesn't get a huge voice in our majority party, and you fall for it hook line and sinker. No wonder you and others keep equivocating. I am long familiar with your posts and know that you champion liberty in the abstract and in the real, pigwiggle. But your refusal to look at the Republican party and its base for what they are obliterates, as Keats might have said, all other consideration. To vote or sympathize GOP today is to spit in the eye of civil liberties. Period. And BTW, Regarding American homophobia: Marriage isn't that big of a part of it. The media trumpets it a lot lately, and used it to the utmost on the last election, but the real issue is criminalization, masquerading under the ersatz banner of 'states rights and yeehaw!" If you don't understand that then that's just too bad.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#74)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    “To vote or sympathize GOP today is to spit in the eye of civil liberties. Period.”
    I agree, and the same is true for the Democratic Party. Period.
    “Somehow the myth ios perpetrated that bigotry doesn't get a huge voice in our majority party, and you fall for it hook line and sinker. No wonder you and others keep equivocating.”
    Just like me, you have no idea what amount of votes for either party comes from bigots. If I were a racist I would vote for Democrats. The welfare state has done more to socially and economically cripple black folks as a group than any contemporary hate group; the epidemic of illegitimacy isn’t the consequence of white hate groups. But, as I’ve said before, I care little what black folks as a group accomplish or not; I care deeply that any single black person has equal access to opportunity afforded through equal protection of the law.
    “And BTW, Regarding American homophobia: Marriage isn't that big of a part of it … the real issue is criminalization”
    I don’t buy it. Homosexuals are not going to jail for having homosexual sex; sodomy laws are unconstitutional. Homosexuals are denied the same bounty of freebies offered to heterosexual couples day in and day out. But more than marriage, it’s equal protection under the law.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#75)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    "I don’t buy it. Homosexuals are not going to jail for having homosexual sex; sodomy laws are unconstitutional." My, my, how uninformed you are. Only since 2003 were sodomy laws ruled unconstitutional, and the new bench sitters will change that as soon as they get a chance. As for the Dems and the GOP being the same on institutionalized bigotry, it's clear you'll never see what's in front of you. So be it.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#76)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    First, there are sodomy laws and there are sodomy laws, so we need to be specific. We are not talking about laws that apply to cases where one individual is not consenting or unable to consent. And we can certainly debate the merits of sodomy solicitation laws; should I or should I not be able to, for example, solicit anal sex from your wife (or you) in public. But I think what we are really talking about is two consenting adults of any combination of male or female, engaging in private sodomy.
    “My, my, how uninformed you are. Only since 2003 were sodomy laws ruled unconstitutional,”
    That’s not true. Many states legislatures and courts have changed or overruled their sodomy laws due to (state) constitutional conflicts. And something being unconstitutional and being ruled unconstitutional are very different. I know it sound stupid but consider how these laws have been changed. Two avenues exist to repeal these laws; the legislature and the courts. For the sake of argument lets assume state legislature are unaccommodating, several have been. For a case to go to court you need someone with standing. Concerned groups produce these folks two ways; they are either charged under the law or they can show they are reasonably afraid of being charged. And here is the catch 22; it is remarkable when someone is charged under one of these ‘blue’ laws. Prosecutors know their constituency and they know the chances of the law standing. I currently live in Utah. There is a law here that makes it a crime for unmarried couples to have sex. Clearly unconstitutional. My now wife and I, along with many thousands of other couples, broke this law with impunity, without fear of ever being charged. The conservative state legislature will never repeal the law, but some folks want it changed. Their only recourse is to show they are afraid of being charged under the law. No one has been able to do it yet, and prosecutors for their part haven’t charged anyone knowing what will likely happen to the law. So it stands, symbolic but impotent. Just like most every sodomy law in every state for the last few decades. So, my (long winded) point; being prosecuted under sodomy laws that concern consenting adults in private is like being struck by lighting. It seems to me couples would be more concerned with state and federal laws that directly impact them as they build a life as a couple. But gay folks, like most folks, can be unreasonable and capricious. So what they should be concerned about and what they are concerned about may be very different.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#77)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    pigwiggle: I don't know if you'll check this thread again, but I hope you do. That's one of the best posts I've ever seen on TL. It demonstrates why I prefer debating you to anyone that posts here. And of course you are right that actually being arrested for consensual sodomy would be analogous to being struck by lightning. So that in the end, my real concern is exposed to be merely symbolic in nature: on principle, I recognize such 'blue laws' as thoroughly detestable and would see the nation scrubbed of them. Their very existence, however impotent in the real, nevertheless works to legitimize large, swathy prejudicial elements in America when really those elements should be laughingstocks, like the twins who (ostensibly, at least) compose the subject matter of this thread. And it is, moreover, this symbolic marginalization to which the GOP panders in election after election: NO, the Dems absolutely do not exploit at the same level, and by extension, nor do they spit in the eye of civil liberties on the same level. When a FOX pundit declares unequivocally that this is a Christian nation, and in addition, that Christianity will be defined in such and such a way (usually a trope for, insanely, calling Jesus a capitalist), that right there tells you a little something about audience. Such punditry does not exist in a vacuum. And if you think that the gay marriage 'debate' in 2004 was really about marriage, as opposed to hatred of gays, then you're giving the surface narrative a helluva lot more credit than it deserves.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    glanton, was your "numero 2" comment above in reference to my November 1, 2005 11:30 AM comment?

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    Once again I find myself so grateful for our rights to free speech and expression. It is better to have the views of these girls out in the open and subject to ridicule than hidden and unrefuted.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#80)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    sarcastic: actually, no. It was more of a response to James Robertson, LWW, and BigMediaBlog, all of whose comments you can find (tellingly!) at the top of the thread. In other words, their immediate reaction was to obfuscate, misdirect, and the like. Another day at the office for those three. Your own post differs in that you begin it by acknolwedging that you are going "Somewhat off-topic." Which of course it is. The last thing a GOP sympathizer ever wants to do is acknowledge in any way that much of the base resonates in important ways with where these twins are coming from. They argue instead that the white southern Republican-voting bigot is only a fairy tale beast made up by tin-foil hat wearing moonbats. Which of course as one who has lived his whole life in the "red-state country," I can assure you there is a reason for things like the South Carolina push polls in 2000. Reality=the not-fairy tale. "Mission Accomplished"=fairy tale.

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    No worries glanton. Is that you kdog?! I though you might have moved on to greener (bluer?) pastures...

    Re: Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate (none / 0) (#82)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    I agree; it’s refreshing to have a civil exchange of ideas, especially between two people who disagree. It doesn’t happen often here and I really do enjoy it. Anyway, to beat dead horse…
    “Their very existence, however impotent in the real, nevertheless works to legitimize large, swathy prejudicial elements in America when really those elements should be laughingstocks.”
    Likewise homosexuals, and other folks with a legitimate beef, seek to use government recognition as a means of dignifying or otherwise legitimizing their special interest. The government cannot legitimize a relationship, it can only regulate it and it’s concerns. Folks can have their moral disagreements; lets leave the state out of it altogether. Really, the government has no more reason to promote and regulate marriage than sodomy, or sodomy than marriage.
    “…Dems absolutely do not exploit at the same level, and by extension, nor do they spit in the eye of civil liberties on the same level.”
    Democrats killed a bill today that would have protected political speech by blogers from FCC regulation. You know, I don’t care a wit for a party’s motives; actions talk bull$hit walks. If Republican legislators voted my beliefs it wouldn’t matter if they crawled around in the mud with the bigots.
    “(usually a trope for, insanely, calling Jesus a capitalist)”
    We all know Jesus was a libertarian, or at least God is. He ostensibly gave us all free will, and certainly doesn’t want the government enforcing His; and it cuts both ways.

    Teen Twins Sing and Spew Hate | 81 comments (81 topical)