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Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart Anti-Torture Law

By TChris, Section War on Terror
Posted on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:18:26 AM EST
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by TChris

As TalkLeft discussed here, Sen. John McCain sponsored a bill to make clear that American soldiers are prohibited from torturing prisoners. McCain makes the point that soldiers deserve clear guidance as to what they can and cannot do when interacting with prisoners. Despite overwhelming support for that proposition in the Senate, the Bush administration opposes any effort to limit its options. The administration's effort to weaken or jettison the provision has been hampered, however, by new accusations that American soldiers mistreated the corpses of Taliban members in Afghanistan.

McCain said the fresh abuse allegations serve as "another argument to make sure that our men and women in the military know exactly what the parameters are [and] what they can and cannot do in regards to prisoners."

Even before the latest incident of shocking behavior was revealed, Bush didn't enjoy the whole-hearted support of his own party in opposing the legislation. The new information should solidify support for McCain's bill.

Senate Republicans said the alleged U.S. troop participation goes to the heart of why Congress must pass legislation to standardize techniques used in the detention, interrogation and prosecution of detainees in the war on terrorism.

"This is a very, very serious problem," said Sen. John Warner, R-Va., and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. If U.S. troops were, in fact, involved, he said, a question must be answered: "What was the command and control that allowed this situation to happen?"

While the administration continues to work to weaken the law, its efforts have been undermined by the mistreatment of corpses. If Bush is unsuccessful in changing the proposed law, will he use the first veto of his presidency on a bill that passed the Senate 90-9?

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    Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart Anti-Torture Law | 13 comments (13 topical)
    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#1)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:13 PM EST
    Getting the McCain legislation enacted is a vital necessity. I'm puzzled, however, about current military training re the Geneva Conventions. 35 years ago, when I went through basic & advanced training, the U.S. Army exposed my fellow trainees & myself to rather intensive classroom presentations on the Geneva Conventions. What the hell has happened since then? From everthing I've read, our military people act as if they're ignorant of Geneva. When & why did the military stop instructing trainees on Geneva? Who decided to skimp on Geneva? Even with unindicted (so far) war criminals running the show our troops should've had the training necessary to not follow illegal orders.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:13 PM EST
    Excellent point, Steve. When you give a group of young men (and women) guns and send them into some very scary places, they need to be well trained on exactly what they should and should not do. They have a right to clear and well formulated rules. They do not have this today. Responsibility for this problem lies with the Pentagon brass and >higher ups<. If there has been a change in the nature of warfare since the 1940s (and there has) then it is the responsibility of senior leadership to recognize this and act in a timely fashion to formulate whatever changes are necessary to reflect the new environment our soldiers find themselves in. There is a failure of leadership here (IMO).

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#3)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:14 PM EST
    Clarification to my earlier post: 35 years ago US Army trainees were educated re the Geneva Conventions, but some of them went on to commit atrocities. But they had been educated re Geneva. They couldn't effectively claim ignorance. Today's troops don't seem to have had any training re Geneva. Is this lack of training/ignorance part of Rumsfeld's lighter/quicker forces, knowledge being scuttled because it'd "weigh" the troops down and slow 'em up?

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    It seems that they are teaching Geneva conventionand other legal aspects of war. Here is a doc on the Law of War Program.
    From everthing I've read, our military people act as if they're ignorant of Geneva.
    Perhaps "act as if" is the telling line. Selective memory seems to be all the rage these days.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#5)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    When I was in the Army, we had the Geneva class. I'll never forget the Sgt who was very vocal about how he intended to commit crimes. The lecturer was uncomfortable, and tried to debate, but the guy was adament. Nothing ever came of it, no lecture from anyone "higher up". Some people are into that kind of thing. They generally look for jobs that will let them get away with it.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#6)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    I went through basic 20 years ago and don't recall anything except being coached to yell "kill a commie for mommie" while stabbing a mounted tire with a bayonet affixed to an M16. This was the Reagan/Weinberger/Ollie North era when we were getting ready to attack Nicaraugua. The Geneva Convention was probably thought "quaint" by that time.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#7)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    I just don't buy the arguement that the cause of abuse of detainees was ignorance of the Geneva Conventions. In my opinion, the ubiquity and similiarity of abuse in many different locales is evidence that the cause had a more systematic cause, specifically, the White House change in policy toward how detainees would be treated after 9/11. The soldiers who committed abuse and torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib were confused. They knew exactly what was expected of them and did what was expected. (For more on the relationship between policy and abuse, read Mark Danner's book Torture and Truth) While I applaud anything that will force the Bush administration to respect the human rights of these detainees, I do have 2 objections to McCain's bill. First, it is not necessary. Don't we already have laws against torture? Aren't we signatories to the Geneva Conventionn? Why don't we enforce the laws we have on the books? If we aren't willing to enforce those laws, then what good will passing another law do? My second objection is that when you say that the cause of abuse was ignorance on the part of the soldiers about the G.C., you are letting the White House and the higher ups in the military off the hook.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#8)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    JH, when the WH cousel says it is OK to torture and the prez says GenCon doesn't apply to anyone he says it doesn't apply to, I guess we do need a law. For myself, I can't believe there is even a debate about whether it is OK for any human being to do this to any other human being ... we hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT!

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#9)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    Sailor, The administration is fighting it so hard. I guess it ain't all that evident at all. :(

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    "When & why did the military stop instructing trainees on Geneva?" One friend of mine, a fairly recent vet (six years ago, deployed in Bosnia), assured me he was extensively trained in GC and UCMJ. The military police who do some of the torture are certainly trained -- but a review of the incidents will show that PRIVATE CONTRACTORS are involved in the worst offenses. Failure of military leadership is the obvious issue with violations by soldiers. But WHEN did our national guard troops ever get that kind of training? Not too useful in a tornado or wildfire rescue. The misuse of our Guard troops is an(other) impeachable offense. Bring Our Guard Home.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#11)
    by wg on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:16 PM EST
    the NYT has a piece on prosecution of those responsible for beating to death of detainees in Kabul and Iraq. Appears usual whitewash. We are good at it.

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    EFFORTS TO THWART ANTI-TORTURE LAW: (Here is my third effort to appear on this blog. The other two seem to have vanished into the blogosphere) President Bush has threatened to veto an Iraq Appropriations Bill unless the Joint Committee of Congress strikes the AMENDMENT from the Bill sent up for his signature. Ninety percent of the senators voted FOR this AMENDMENT. From this it is fair to infer that Bush is not against, but in FAVOR of continuing torture. Otherwise why would he want to VETO such an AMENDMENT? It is also in the nature of an ADMISSION. The fact that this is the first time in living memory (as far as I know) that any Leader or Torturer has actually admitted and come out openly "in favor" of Torture. This is huge news but seems to be totally downplayed by our media. It is not downplayed abroad (read the Frankfurter Zeitung Germany and others). HAVE WE NO SHAME? Can anyone out there explain to me why Bush would do this? Apart from the obvious IMMORALITY is it not completely despicable and stupid GALL to take this position???

    Re: Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Corrected Message EFFORTS TO THWART ANTI-TORTURE LAW: President Bush has threatened to veto an Iraq Appropriations Bill unless the Joint Committee of Congress strikes the AMENDMENT from the Bill sent up for his signature. Ninety percent of the senators voted FOR this AMENDMENT. The AMENDMENT sponsored by Senator McCain (Rep. Ariz.) provides in effect that it is illegal to abuse detainees by any and all government agents either in the U.S. or abroad. From this it is fair to infer that Bush is not against, but in FAVOR of continuing torture. Otherwise why would he want to VETO such an AMENDMENT? It is also in the nature of an ADMISSION. The fact that this is the first time in living memory (as far as I know) that any Leader or Torturer (since Torquemada), has actually admitted and come out openly "in favor" of Torture. This is huge news but seems to be totally downplayed by our media. It is not downplayed abroad (read the Frankfurter Zeitung Germany and others). HAVE WE NO SHAME? Can anyone out there explain to me why Bush would do this? Apart from the obvious IMMORALITY is it not completely despicable and stupid GALL to take this position???

    Administration Frustrated in Efforts to Thwart Anti-Torture Law | 13 comments (13 topical)