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Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented Residents

The AP reports that Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff has declared open war on undocumented residents.

Atrios responds:

There's nothing necessarily wrong with a general policy of expelling illegal immigrants, aside from the cost of course, although it's important to remember that plenty of illegals have perfectly legal children and/or spouses. But I don't look forward to living in a "show your papers please" society.

Me neither. Nor should local police be used to enforce immigration laws. As to how Chertoff intends to accomplish his goal, here's the predictable answer. More jails.

"Today, a non-Mexican illegal immigrant caught trying to enter the United States across the southwest border has an 80 percent chance of being released immediately because we lack the holding facilities," he added. "Through a comprehensive approach, we are moving to end this 'catch and release' style of border enforcement by reengineering our detention and removal process."

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  • Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#29)
    by Lora on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:06 PM EST
    Jim, You cannot deport American citizens. Countless children will be left behind. I'm thinking of the harm done to the children. And of the cost to taxpayers, who have to pick up the pieces.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#1)
    by Lora on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    What is the cost, both monetary and emotional, to those children (and to our society) of having a parent, quite possibly a productive and caring parent, suddenly removed from his/her child and shipped hundreds or thousands of miles away? This is more than just important; it is critical.

    But I don't look forward to living in a "show your papers please" society. I perhaps wouldn't have a problem with "show your papers please" if it was applied equally, randomly, completely without regard to ethnicity, national origin, or language. But I'm not at all confident that the hassle factor would be distributed in a fair and uniform way (i.e., not singling people out because they have brown skin or are speaking Spanish).

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#3)
    by Joe Bob on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    I also wonder if the consequences of possibly breaking up families has been taken into consideration. For instance, imagine an illegal immigrant with a spouse and young children who are US citizens. The breadwinner gets deported, then what? Hope that the rest of the family goes with them? If not, we're left with a broken family who could very well end up on public assistance. How many of these winning scenarios will a harsher deport/lock-em-up strategy create? On top of that, what's the real benefit to society for spending massive amounts of money locking up people guilty solely of violating immigration laws? Add the capital costs of new jails plus maybe $30K per inmate per year...to what end? That money could be better spent. Lastly, this policy only looks at one side of the equation: deterring illegal immigration by punishing immigrants. Why not do something about the incentives for them coming here in the first place: jobs. The status quo depends just as much on employers willing to flout the law as it does on the immigrant workers themselves.

    Confused by the "illegal" part of "illegal alien" again?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    Joe Bob writes:
    If not, we're left with a broken family who could very well end up on public assistance.
    What do you think happens when the bread winner is an American Citizen and goes to jail? Lora - I saw nothin in his statements that indicated that the parents would be deported without being united with their family. But tell me. Do you think just because someone comes into the country and has a child that they have a free ticket in?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#6)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    But tell me. Do you think just because someone comes into the country and has a child that they have a free ticket in?
    Worked for my ancestors....
    Confused by the "illegal" part of "illegal alien" again?
    No... Confused by the "lock 'em up" theory. Locking them up has done zero to stop drug abuse, murder, speeding,rape, assault, petty theft, car theft... Why would this fare any different?
    The status quo depends just as much on employers willing to flout the law as it does on the immigrant workers themselves.
    hear! hear! I stand by my "eliminate the incentive" plan. Fine every business who hires an illegal a minimum of 1 million dollars, American, for each infraction.
    Lora - I saw nothin in his statements that indicated that the parents would be deported without being united with their family.
    Does this mean he supports deporting American citizens? Does it mean you do as well? What, exactly, does that statement mean?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    Johnny - It means that he didn't say anything about it. There. That wasn't hard, was it? I'll join you in the fines. Now to do that fairly, we are going to have to have some very definitive ID, otherwise how will the business know? Show me your papers, please. And the plan is to deport, not lock up.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#8)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    I'll join you in the fines. Now to do that fairly, we are going to have to have some very definitive ID, otherwise how will the business know? Show me your papers, please.
    I was hired at my job with nothing more than the usual... SSN, drivers license... Why should that change?
    Johnny - It means that he didn't say anything about it. There. That wasn't hard, was it?
    What Chertoff said could easily be construed as deportation, ("Through a comprehensive approach, we are moving to end this 'catch and release' style of border enforcement by reengineering our detention and removal process.") Now, by removal, does he mean deportation? Excution?
    And the plan is to deport, not lock up.
    Huh?

    This is truly a sad day for the blogosphere. Several junior pundits have weighed in on Chertoff's remarks, but they're almost all wrong. To find out what this is really all about and what he really said, click here. The "jail space" TL refers to is detention space for OTMs: Other Than Mexicans. Tens of thousands of them - including people Special Interest Alieans from Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Communist China, North Korea, etc. etc. come over the border and are given "walking papers". They're then released into the U.S. and 90% or so are never heard from again. And, that's all Chertoff says he's going to do, just stop the OTM release. If his past actions are a clue, he still intends to let corrupt GOP businesses make billions off employing millions of illegal aliens, so TalkLeft doesn't need to worry about that part of things.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#10)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    An alternative to relying on costly (not to mention inefficient and civil liberties threatening) government programs would be to simply tax all wire transfers of money flowing out of the US. It would quickly become apparent who is sending what and how much. It would also quickly become expensive, in more ways than one, for many who are here without 'Uncle's leave. A major economic factor enabling this form of 'human trafficking' would become less of one. Which is why it will never be implemented, and for all the reasons given above, chiefest of which being the loss of cheap labor.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    BMB - There is no link to his prepared remarks, and the url info given doesn't function. Can you provide further proof?? Johnny - The ID you had is easily forged/obtained and couldn't be used if fines/jail terms were given people for hiring illegal aliens.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    et al - Here's a link to his remarks. From his prepared remarks:
    Our goal at DHS is to completely eliminate the “catch and release” enforcement problem, and return every single illegal entrant – no exceptions. It should be possible to achieve significant and measurable progress to this end in less than a year.


    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#13)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    Johnny - The ID you had is easily forged/obtained and couldn't be used if fines/jail terms were given people for hiring illegal aliens.
    ALL identification is easily forged... With regards to Mr. Chertoff's "Catch and Return" policy... Sounds expensive. Charley, go home. You whities were illegal aliens on my land 200 years ago.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    Johnny - Nations exist because they have borders, and enforce those borders, if they can. Whatever tribe your ancestors may have been part of obviously couldn't enforce their borders. That is what happens when weaker groups/nations run into stronger groups. Another question would be, what group did the tribe of your ancestors defeat/destroy to take control of the land you now refer to? For a better understanding read "The Contested Plains," Univ Kansas Press. Amazon has the book available, or perhaps your local library. And no. All ID isn't easily forged. There are a variety of ways to make forgery difficult. I repeat. I agree with hefty fines. But we will have to insure that the employer can be assured that the person is, or is not, legal. That means much better ID.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#15)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    Chertoff has declared open war on undocumented residents...
    Fuggedaboudit... never gonna happen.

    Chertoff has declared open war on undocumented residents... It's about freakin time! Too bad this wasn't done a couple of decades ago.... then we'd have several million less to worry about. As far as the cost goes...yes it will be expensive... but the benefits far outway the costs. And, speaking of benefits, maybe "actual American citizens" will be given priority over illegals now?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#17)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:08 PM EST
    Desert, That's the attitude where I live too.

    When Chertoff says "return every single illegal entrant – no exceptions" he's not talking about those illegal aliens already here. This is only a promise to finally do the job he should have been doing all along. And, from his remarks:
    our strategy of reforming our immigration system is a three-pillar, comprehensive approach that focuses on controlling the border, building a robust interior enforcement program, and establishing a Temporary Worker Program.
    Bottom line: tbis is all BS designed to sell their "guest" worker scheme. Details here.

    "Confused by the "illegal" part of "illegal alien" again?" Tell me, do you think an illegal immigrant should deported even if it means he will be tortured to death for past political activities? Maybe you do, but fortunately, in this country we offer something called "asylum". Look into it sometime.

    Joeschmo... do you think an illegal immigrant should deported even if it means he will be tortured to death for past political activities... That's called 'political asylum' ... and there is a BIG difference between those people (who are asking for it) and illegals that slip in under the fence after dark for better jobs! You my friend are the one that needs to 'look into it'!

    What they HAVE been doing since 2001 is holding future deportees in lockup for years on end, without legal process. The INS lockups are rife with human rights violations. Why does that sound so familiar? Oh, yeah. Now the bigot Jim finally admits that the immigration issue is more than Latinos. It's all sorts of people, from all over. What Jim fails to note is that it is all sorts of legal issues, all sorts of partial and delayed paperwork, all sorts of LEGAL CASES that have to be adjudicated. Arrest the INS agents who refuse to give papers in a timely fashion. Fire Chertoff, for his failures in Katrina, and his lack of qualifications, which he himself admits. Deport the entire Bush crime family. Attacking the poor is all a bigot like Jim understands.

    "and there is a BIG difference between those people (who are asking for it) and illegals that slip in under the fence after dark for better jobs!" But they're both illegal aliens, you see. Hence the relevance to Mr. Robertson's statement: "Confused by the "illegal" part of "illegal alien" again?" And hence the relevance to Chertoff's promise to deport every single illegal immigrant. Perhaps you think Chertoff will not try to deport people who deserve asylum. If so, you've not had much contact with the U.S. Attorneys who handle these cases.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#23)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:09 PM EST
    Nations exist because they have borders, and enforce those borders, if they can. Whatever tribe your ancestors may have been part of obviously couldn't enforce their borders. That is what happens when weaker groups/nations run into stronger groups.
    Huh? Do you know anything about what happened here? Do you honestly believe tribes were set up as heirarchal independent states with cohesive boundaries and what-not? How can any group, outnumbered and outgunned and too dam trusting to begin with compete against genocide and biological warfare? Jim your comment reeks. You display an ignorance about the so-called "Indian wars" that even the most rascist Hollywood movie producers would admire. There were between 2 and 20 million natives on this continent before the Europeans decided that we were "wasting resources" and "living like animals"... So you slaughtered us in the name of capitalism and christianity. And when you couldn't beat us in man to man combat, you used gatling guns to murder women and children. You used smallpox laced blankets to wipe out entire tribes. You hunted entire herds of animals to the brink of extinction. So stuff your "weaker/stronger" BS right down your rascist throat.
    And no. All ID isn't easily forged. There are a variety of ways to make forgery difficult. I repeat. I agree with hefty fines. But we will have to insure that the employer can be assured that the person is, or is not, legal. That means much better ID.
    Then make it harder to forge. Pretty hard to forge RFID implants. Go for it.
    wow, Johnny, you are 200 years old. that must be some kind of record. But, getting back to reality, why are we obligated to spend our tax dollars to subsidize corrupt governments such as Mexico who throw their social problems on us? we have our own poor as I am sure you were happy to point out during Katrina's aftermath. if these folks coming are so enterprising and hardworking, they can be enterprising and hardworking in their own country too. of course, that ignores the large numbers of criminals coming and all of the other social problems created.
    Charley, go home. But seriously, go home. With regards to your comment, one could just as easily ask why we are obligated to care for the millions of displaced and poor Iraqis? Why do natives still live on reservations? Ever been to one? Ever know any natives? Do you realize how close we look to those scary brown people coming across the border? Neither you nor Jim have a clue what you are talking about re. natives in this country. At what point do illegals become rightful owners? For whites it was when the starving native women and children stopped fighting back and accepted diseased beef and arid reservation land. Yeah Jim, we lost because we were weaker. You sound almost as if we deserved to. I mean, what is the loss of a large culture (which, incidentally, managed to survive 20K years on this continent without wiping out entire races of people) compared to the glorious expansion of Western European economic and political ideals? Get real.
    Another question would be, what group did the tribe of your ancestors defeat/destroy to take control of the land you now refer to?
    Don't presuppose white battle tactics on the natives. We didn't fight that way. Sorry. War among natives was not war for conquest, domination, or genocide. BOT This is impossible to enforce without assuming all brown people are illegals. And the only way it can be enforced is to stop evey brown person and ask for papers. My family has lived here for 20000 years, so your policies can bite my ass.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#24)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:09 PM EST
    "Illegals from Mexico" Most of the US southwest was mexican terratory until the US "took" it. Look at the history of Texas, for example. Completely illegal annexation. All of the "Mexicans" were not driven out either, so there are many who have lived here, or migrated back and forth, for a long time. It is the height of arrogance to call them "aliens", legal or not.

    Most of the US southwest was mexican terratory until the US "took" it. Look at the history of Texas, for example. Completely illegal annexation. All of the "Mexicans" were not driven out either, so there are many who have lived here, or migrated back and forth, for a long time. It is the height of arrogance to call them "aliens", legal or not.
    Yep, the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Little more than Armed Robbery on a massive scale. Just like the "westward expansion"...also known as the attempted genocide of the Native Americans.

    joeschmo.... But they're both illegal aliens, you see. NO Joe.... they are not! Once again (even though I tried to lead you through) you missed the point. As pointed out to you by Charley...... If you ask for asylum... you are not here illegally unless we say no... in which case we'll kick you out. If you then sneak back in...you are illegal If you crawl under the fence in the first place... never even "asking" to be eccepted for 'political' reasons through the proper channels.... you are breaking the law! Got it now? Roger / Adept_ / et al.... Why do you guys constantly go back hundreds of years to try and make a point. What our founding fathers did back in the day is irrelevant here. The country was formed...laws inacted...etc..etc. You need to be concerned about the flood of illegals "NOW" that are choking this country. Let them apply and come legally like most of our ancestors did. What's wrong with that?

    Why do you guys constantly go back hundreds of years to try and make a point.
    Those that do not remember history, are condemned to repeat it. That, and past behaivior is one of the best predictors of future behavior.
    What our founding fathers did back in the day is irrelevant here.
    On a legal blog, of all places, you deny the inherent value of precedent?
    Let them apply and come legally like most of our ancestors did. What's wrong with that?
    Seems to me like they are. They are acting precisely like our ancestors. They are coming into an area with an already established culture and rules, and ignoring them to make their own way. Just like the European settlers did.
    You need to be concerned about the flood of illegals "NOW" that are choking this country.
    I am concerned. I am even more concerned with a government that is totally unresponsive to the issue, with the exception of grand theatre like Chertoff's announcement.

    "As pointed out to you by Charley...... If you ask for asylum... you are not here illegally unless we say no... in which case we'll kick you out. If you then sneak back in...you are illegal If you crawl under the fence in the first place... never even "asking" to be eccepted for 'political' reasons through the proper channels.... you are breaking the law! Got it now?" You obviously aren't a lawyer, or if you are, you don't know the first thing about immigration law. Asking for asylum does not make you a "legal immigrant". In fact, thousands of asylum applications come from illegal immigrants who are already in the middle of removal proceedings. Perhaps you're confusing asylum seekers with refugees (who are granted permission to enter the country before they actually enter the U.S.). Most asylum seekers are already here in the U.S., most of them illegally (or about to be here illegally very soon once their visas expire). In fact, thousand of asylum cases ever year are presented for the first time as a defense before an immigration judge (meaning the government has started deportation proceedings, and the immigrant will be deported unless he proves to a very high standard that they have a case for asylum). Ever studied a case dealing with an Immigration Judge adjudicating an asylum claim?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#30)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:09 PM EST
    It's not like it hasn't been done before:
    During the Great Depression, anywhere from one to two million people were deported in an effort by the government to free up jobs for those who were considered “real Americans” and rid the county governments of “the problem.” The campaign, called the Mexican Reparation, was authorized by President Herbert Hoover. Although President Franklin Roosevelt ended federal support when he took office, many state and local governments continued with their efforts.
    Estimates now indicate that approximately 60 percent of the people deported were children who were born in America and others who, while of Mexican descent, were legal citizens.


    Estimates now indicate that approximately 60 percent of the people deported were children who were born in America and others who, while of Mexican descent, were legal citizens.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, the President of the United States, Hoobert Heever, and yet another of his amazing displays of idiocy.

    You guys are misreading Chertoff's statements. Example Border patrol arrests 50 illegals at the border and 40 are Mexican and the other 10 are from other countries. Currently we deport the 40 Mexicans back to Mexico and give the other 10 a slip of paper telling them to show up for a court date. We do this because we don't have detention space for them and it takes a while to deport them. What they want to do is build more detention space so we can detain them for deportation rather than releasing them hoping they appear in court, which of course very few do. How can anyone have a problem with that?

    Most of the US southwest was mexican terratory until the US "took" it. It's our territory now. If you don't respect our borders and you think another country has any right to any of our territory, renounce your American citizenship. You're on the wrong side. We're importing millions of people from Mexico who think this is their land. Anyone who does not see that as a clear danger to the U.S. is an idiot. Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots in Washington. You cannot deport American citizens. That's another reason why guest worker schemes and massive illegal immigration are huge problems. Which is better for the U.S.?
    Illegal aliens having U.S. citizen children -> huge problems
    Or:
    No illegal aliens -> no mixed-status families -> it's not an issue.
    The second is clearly the correct public policy.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#34)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:09 PM EST
    BB, I guess that since 1787 is a date that I deal with everyday, history seems kind of important. Dont repubs keep bleating "original intent"? BMG, In high school, did you often say "it's my lunch money now"? I'm talking about indiginous peoples and artificial borders. I merely describe what is.

    High school's a good example, thanks. If you go to Lincoln High School, but you think Washington High School should win the Big Game, then perhaps you should go to Washington instead. And, if you work against Lincoln High School while attending that school, most of your classmates will consider you a traitor to the school.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:10 PM EST
    BMB-WTF are you saying. Shoot'em down. Oh, or is the idea to generate cash by imprisonioning them?
    We're importing millions of people from Mexico who think this is their land. Anyone who does not see that as a clear danger to the U.S. is an idiot. Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots in Washington.


    "High school's a good example, thanks." So basically you're saying that the people who run this country have the mentality and maturity of a bunch of hormone-drenched teenagers?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#38)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:10 PM EST
    bury my heart at wounded knee, johnny(why the name given to you by the white oppressor?). try rereading your rant-the noble savage/evil westerner tripe has been a staple of the left for years. it is why they are able to portray islamic psychopaths who bomb people in pizza shops as somehow being heroic or justified. you are historically ignorant as to the behavior of "early" Americans (by the way-they came here from elsewhere and, guess what, displaced folks who were in the way). the brown people of Mexico aren't scary-they just belong in their own country unless they come here legally. growing up in Northern Michigan, I knew plenty of indians-they aren't scary either as those who flock to their casinos will tell you. not many were whiners like you though-that is scary.
    I said nothing about "noble savage"... Learn to read. Charley, if the "mexican hordes" conquer this country, are you gonna sit back and not "whine"? No. The Europeans committed genocide on the natives of this continent. That can never be forgotten. So stuff it in your pale a$$. Also, since Wounded Knee is where my ancestors were slaughtered by a white army, whose sole purpose was to murder women and children, yes... My heart is buried at Wounded Knee. You are a rascist who suggests that the end (annihilation of a culture) justifies the means (murdering women and children, mass killing of people who were doing nothing more than fighting to preserve their way of life). Like it or not, the reason you are able to cry and moan and tell the natives to "get over it" is because of the blood on your ancestors hands. And now we have "millions" of immigrants threatening your culture... And you are whining about it. Tough. Too bad.
    johnny(why the name given to you by the white oppressor?).
    First, my native name is my business and I don't speak my true name either outloud or in print. Second, it isn't white suppression... It is European suppression. Including the brown skinned spaniards. Further, you will scour high and low to find any trace of the genocidal relocation methods utilised by white people, used by natives. We didn't fight that way. That kind of warfare is a staple of "civilised" people.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#39)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:10 PM EST
    Also Charley, it is a "shift" key. It changes the little letters to big ones. Try it.

    The racism is naked. The white entitlement trolls are a TINY but vocal MINORITY, trying to foist its policies by fiat and by the vocalization of intolerance. Yet another effort to dumb down the discussion, on the way to YET ANOTHER pogrom on poor people. Pigs. Hatred isn't the answer to ANY of our problems. That's different for the anger good Americans feel toward FELONS like Bush. As an American-born patriot, I heartily invite the Mexican government to exchange with the State of California ONE MILLION of your fine workers, if you will allow George Bush to move to Mexico. If you would, please include charley, since Bush needs a lot of ballwashing.

    Roger.... I'm talking about indiginous peoples and artificial borders. Indiginous? These people were born in Mexico. (IE - not from this country) Mexico = different country.... different culture.... different language... etc...etc! The borders are not artificial... although I will admit most people (yourself?) treat them that way.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:11 PM EST
    Johnny writes:
    You display an ignorance about the so-called "Indian wars" that even the most rascist Hollywood movie producers would admire.
    If you would read my comments you will note that they made no judgment, just a statement of what happened. And yes, the Indians had territorial boundaries, and yes some tribes displaced other tribes. And some tribes slaughtered other tribes. And some tribes took slaves. As I said, read “The Contested Plains.” Educate yourself. As for improved ID, I assume then that you are in favor of a national ID card with RFID that would allow the government to know where you are at all times. And BTW – The last time I checked I have never been involved in any hostile actions with American Indians. And your claims that I have are flat out racist. Roger…. So England should give back Scotland and Ireland? That’s funny.

    "joeschmoe-you show your own lack of legal knowledge in your statements on asylum seekers. of course they could be deported as illegals as they usually are." Actually, in recent history roughly half of asyluym applications are eventually granted; see the statistical INS Yearbook. But where did I show a "lack of legal knowledge"? "however, they are allowed to state their case for asylum as a bar to removal." But that's exactly what I said! The point is, they are already "illegal immigrants" in the process of removal; simply asking for asylum does not make them "legal", as other posters implied. Thus Chertoff's intentiong to deport "every single illegal immigrant" means they will fight asylum applicatons very aggressively; and believe me, they do. "do you find it horrible that they actually have to prove a case?" I think that depends on the burden of proof. Unfortunately, in the real world most Immigration Judges apply a standard that is impossibly high. Do you think it's easy to prove you were tortured ten years ago in a third world country because of your political activities? And yes, they can appeal to the federal courts -- but to do all this successfully, you need a very good lawyer. The immigration laws and processes are absolutely labyrithian. No lay person can take them on successfully, and not many immigrants can afford a decent lawyer to do all this for them. I should know -- as a lawyer and a federal law clerk I assisted in adjudicating immigration cases; that's the source of my legal knowledge. But since you see fit to call it into question, do tell: What are your qualifications to render opinions on immigration law?

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#44)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:12 PM EST
    Jim, The last time I went, Dublin was full of Irish people. BB, Sure, they were all born in Mexico, which historically includes places like California JoeShmo, Arguing with Charley will get you nowhere. Think of the mentally challeneged inmate from "In living Color". He read it in a book, you must be an idiot. Ghetto mentallity all the way. I find it easier to ignore him.

    The fact that federal appellate courts overturn Immigration Judges so often is an indicator of how bad the Immigration Judges are. Of course, not all circuit courts overturn Immigration Judges at a high rate. And as I pointed out already, you need a good lawyer to get as far as winning in the appellate court.

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#46)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:12 PM EST
    what joe said

    "they must be higher than yours despite your puffery. [...] that ends the debate-I'll just ignore reality because of your status. " You are the one who questioned my legal knowledge (without actually pointing out anything wrong in my statements). So my legal qualifications are obviously relevant. You, on the other hand, stated none. So you're not a lawyer, and you've never practiced or adjudicated immigration law, correct? You read appellate court opinions; congratulations. I've written them.

    "what makes that any different than any other case? " A lot of things. In criminal cases, for example, you have the right to have a lawyer appointed to you free of charge. In removal proceedings, you don't; only about half of immigrants in removal proceedings get representation. Second, the Immigration Judges aren't "judges" in the usual sense. They're administrative appointees, i.e. they are effectively an arm of the Dept. of Justice. They are extremely biased, as evidenced by your own statements. You don't get a truly neutral judge until you get to the federal courts. The problem there is that the "standard of review" is very high - meaning the court is very constrained in how it can overturn the Immigration Judge. Believe me, it isn't as easy as you make it sound. "you might learn that when you get out of the clerking game and have to actually deal with cases/clients" Spare me your "advice"; I'm already out of "the clerking game".

    Re: Chertoff Declares Open Season on Undocumented (none / 0) (#49)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:12 PM EST
    Dont feel bad Joe, Charley thinks that he is more qualified than T-Chris too. Back in the day, when I was a public defender, I would occasionally meet someone like Charley. Dont argue with them, they are incapable of learning, reality is what they want it to be.

    Charley thinks
    Really? I'm yet to see any sign of it. ;)