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Saturday Open Thread

By TChris, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 02:05:34 PM EST
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by TChris

Comment at your leisure.

Update: (TalkLeft) I'm back now. TChris and Last Night in Little Rock did a great job while I was gone, I can't believe how much time they spent updating the site. I am very grateful to them.

I'm also so glad to be back at my desktop with a big monitor and mouse. I made peace with my Powerbook after 2 days, and actually like it now, and used many of your suggestions from the other day. Particularly helpful was Paul in LA's info that the apple key functions like a control key on the PC when it comes to cut, copy and paste. Anyway, it's good to be home.

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    Saturday Open Thread | 46 comments (46 topical)
    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Hurricane Cash Cow.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    meanwhile Hurricane Ophelia is staring us down here in the Cape Fear region. She won't pack nearly the same punch as Katrina, but the last thing we need is to divert resources from the Delta. I'll try to post throgh the storm the next couple of days if it intensifies and I have access to the web.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Thanks GregZ, but next time include a link. I've got coverage of the politics of Katrina here.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Media I dont have a blog. I just post to TL. If you want some links to more info about Ophelia try this

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Che - Don't faint old son, but you have it exactly right. At what point do we start to say: Look, sweets, love you and all that, but I can't afford the freight. If you want to build it back, do it 75 miles up stream and above sea level. Otherwise, count me out.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Kayne West takes the easy way out. Its easy and less painful to just blame the white man when things go wrong rather than placing the responsibility where it belongs; on the black city officials and the people who chose to stay. If THE MAYOR WERE WHITE, DO YOU THINK HE WOULD STILL HAVE A JOB RIGHT-NOW? Kayne West takes the easy way out. He wants to be a musician but he’s a rapper. Why? Because it’s easier to rap and talk crap rather than Sing and Play a musical instrument. See, those things take work, dedication, discipline and talent. It’s easier to just TALK into a microphone and spew out lyrics you JUST wrote while taking a dump. Once again Kayne West takes the easy way out!

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    adam sure, your right. Kayne West was out of line in his approach, but of all the things to be angry about this seems trivial. Try listening to some Louis Armstrong instead.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Look, sweets, love you and all that, but I can't afford the freight. If you want to build it back, do it 75 miles up stream and above sea level. Otherwise, count me out.
    Hell froze over. For once I actually agree with you. The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Rebuilding New Orleans on the same spot is about as dumb and foolhardy as anyone can get. Not only is it totally ridiculous to rebuild a city that can be destroyed again exactly the same way, but what are we rebuilding here? Another ghetto. Hate to break it to you all but the Ninth Ward was not exactly utopia on earth. I think I heard the average income in parts was around 6k to 9k a year, and we want to rebuild that ? The first step to actually doing something about poverty in this country is NOT building any more slums or ghettos; no more housing projects, no more herding the poor into ghetto corrals from which they have little chance to escape.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    [TL, I could have given that advice, but someone else is guilty of trying to help you use a 'French' computer.] Fenria: "Not only is it totally ridiculous to rebuild a city that can be destroyed again exactly the same way," O'Reilly! Well, then, it was STUPID to rebuild San Francisco, right? And Oakland, screw Oakland. And Northridge. Who needs Northridge? And New York City? Screw ports. Ports are too near the water.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Ah, how charming when all the RACISTS chime in at once. Jim: "If you want to build it back, do it 75 miles up stream and above sea level." I'm sure you will RUSH RIGHT OUT and STOP the federal government from rebuilding the Barrier Island houses of millionaires for the last thousand years. I'm sure you will rush right out and stop the needless waste of 1/3 of a TRILLION dollars in an illegal invasion that won't produce democracy any how. I'm sure you want to WRITE A LETTER and complain about Halliburton IMPORTING Green Zone blast walls at $1000 each segment -- when the local bid FOR THE EXACT SAME THING was $250. That's hard work! Jim wants to 'save' us some more money. RUN!!!!

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    They were ghettos?… W0W I wonder how it got that way? Maybe it was the democrats and the liberals who For years gave them welfare and food stamps without holding them accountable to finish school or train for employment. So they didn’t have to! And they never did… YaY! But now the big bad wolf blew their house down and they will be relocated to your city! That’s what we needed more low-income black welfare recipients with their wonderful and congenial attitude ready to make our place a better neighborhood.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    No rebuilding towns and cities on hurricane paths either, or in flood areas, or in tornado prone areas, or in earthquake territory, or in mountains where there are avalanches, or mudslides, or wildfires. So we will all have to live in Chicago. Oh.. no... wait... fire.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    They were ghettos?… W0W I wonder how it got that way? Maybe it was the democrats and the liberals who For years gave them welfare and food stamps without holding them accountable to finish school or train for employment. So they didn’t have to! And they never did…
    Do you suppose that maybe the fact that places like the Ninth ward have been routinely denied the same kind of federal funding and infrastructure investing by businesses that are so readily apparent in white neighborhoods and account for much of the success of white neighborhoods had anything to do with it? Oh, no, of course not. It's all their fault, right?! Hey black people, why don't you just jump right out of slavery, Jim Crow, and years of neglect and go get a damn MBA for chrissakes, right?! Hey black people, forget about the fact that your community is being economically depressed on purpose to provide a ready source of cheap labor for employers who want to pay only minimum wage and less, why don't you all just go out and be doctors already, right?! Jonathan Swift would have had a field day with you, Adam.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    And Paul in LA, if you honestly think I'm a racist, you're tripping. I do question the validity of rebuilding a city that sits below sea level for obvious reasons. Perhaps NO can be rebuilt, but not as it stands today. We either need to fill that basin in to sea level or we need to rebuild on higher ground.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    Talkleft writes:
    I'm also so glad to be back at my desktop with a big monitor and mouse.
    I recommend a Kensington PocketMouse MiniWireless. About $25.00 at your local Best Buy. And say good buy to cables and/or touch pads forever... Fenria - Anyone who disagrees with PIL is a racist. So shame, shame on you. ;-) PIL - I think you will find that those millionares aren't being covered by either insurance or Federal Funds, or at least that's what I understand about homes being built on the NC/SC islands. et al - To me the issue with NO is that is in a bowl and requires pumps. So no matter how much money you spend, a really killer hurricane can wipe it out. Note that there are several things about Katrina that really screwed things but the flood is the real problem. Without the flood you have a lot of damage, a lot of problems, but all managable. Look at MS and AL. Because of the flood you lost the police force. A full one third just left. This was not anticapted by either the NO, State or FEMA disaster recovery plan. Because of this you lost the city to the looters, and it caused delays in getting in the first rescue teams. They couldn't really move until the military arrived and took back the city. That increased the problems of lack of food, water and medical care. BTW - It is the police's job to hold the city until the NG gets there. Because of the flood you lost power and communications for an unknown period of time, rather than a few days which is typical for hurricanes and earthquakes. Because of the flood you lost transportation and the ability to easily and quickly move people out and miliatry in. That includes food, water and medical attention. And the kicker is this. You don't have to move very far to get away from the flood problem. Why tempt fate? Isn't one of the definitions of insanity doing the same thing and expecting different results?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    KFC, Taco Bell and Mc Donald’s’s conspired on their neighborhood, keeping it economically depressed : “to provide a ready source of cheap labor for employers who want to pay only minimum wage and less,” THAT’S what you want me to believe? Give me a break! That’s the kind of thinking that keeps you into the cycle of making excuses for those people. By the way slavery ended when the civil war ended, back in 1861. That’s a Hundred and forty four years ago (incase your math is bad too).

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    um, your Civil War actually ended in 1865...but I think Delarozza's point still stands. It's been long enough since slavery that it's a lame excuse for misfortunes in our day (not that that prevents perpetual victim types from using it).
    On another note, I'm curious: how many people here actually consider the Bush administration primarily to blame for the mismanagement of the NOLA disaster? (i.e. more blameworthy than the mayor or the governor?) And if so, why?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    AD-Uppity negro making millions of dollars getting you upset. Ha, ha, ha....If the mayor were white you would not be complainin and Chimp King would give him a medal. Looks like you have got a new friend in grad. Maybe the two of you can figgure out a way to teach "those people" how to sing white for you. Of course the big ole smarty chimp is a white so he is smarter than that stupid negro mayor who got where he is because of some kind of welfare. Nice question grad but hey I gots an idee for you smartee grad abouts them "perpetual victims", how bouts sendin em back to afreca wheres thems belong. Thinks of all that welfare money we can save, and rapes and muggins will be gone. Probally end abortion too. You two should think of runnin fer election. Smarter than the rest of us stoopid liberals. We are just perpetuatin the problems. PPJ could be your PR minister, cus you two needs some fixin for yer speeches sos you can get more popular.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    I wuv you Squeaky. I want to have your child.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    "According to all aerodynamic laws, the bumblebee cannot fly because its body weight is not in the right proportion to its wingspan. But ignoring these laws, the bee flies anyway." That is still New York City for me. From the late Spalding Gray

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Squwak writes:
    You two should think of runnin fer election. Smarter than the rest of us stoopid liberals. We are just perpetuatin the problems. PPJ could be your PR minister, cus you two needs some fixin for yer speeches sos you can get more popular.
    First things first. I am a liberal. You are a leftie. Big difference. Secondly, show me a racist remark I have made.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Ophelia is sitting of our coast here in Wilmington. They are saying landfall could be anywhere from Myrtle Beach, SC to the Outer Banks...so much for precision. The winds are kicking up here with an occasional shower. The waves at the nearby beaches are upwards of eight feet, but the waters are extremely rough! Its only a one, but if we learned anything from Katrina, its stay vigiliant! As a Cat. One, I doubt this deserves a thread, but I will try to update if I can...

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    aw-that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a while, thank you.... the feeling is mutual.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    PPJ: I am a liberal. You are a leftie. Big difference. I'm sure that many people disagree on how to define each of these terms. What is more relevant to discussions here is what you mean when you describe yourself as liberal. I know that you call yourself as social liberal, but I don't know what you mean by that. Please help me understand, either by explaining or linking to previous explanations.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Posted by Fenria: "And Paul in LA, if you honestly think I'm a racist, you're tripping." Fenria, it may surprise you, but I don't have a playcard to this blog. If you jump in to support the racist perspective, you might get accidentally tarred by that brush. "I do question the validity of rebuilding a city that sits below sea level for obvious reasons. Perhaps NO can be rebuilt, but not as it stands today." If that is what you had said, I would have agreed. Clearly it makes no sense to rebuild NO below the Mississippi river, given the chance. That's why God invented dumptrucks. He also said: "Protect your levees, because you never know when the Thief-in-Chief will come."

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    "I know that you call yourself as social liberal, but I don't know what you mean by that." Punisher, it means that if he expresses his actual views, his racism becomes obvious. So he has a different label for his racism. The South has had different labels for racism for a long, long time.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Paul: "Punisher, it means that if he expresses his actual views, his racism becomes obvious. So he has a different label for his racism." PPJ, I really want to know where you're coming from. Tell me what you mean by social liberal. I assume that you don't accept Paul's characterization. If he is wrong about this, tell me how I should understand your perspective.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Thanks SqueakyMaybe I will run for election, that way I could set up a lot of programs and policies that would generate the people to provide for themselves. Don’t worry because I would have a lot of employment Opportunities for peeps like you. Accessing from your conversational skills, may I recommend a position in our Custodial Arts department, the test isn’t that hard and you can take it again if you need to. J

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Deep breath, Adam.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    AD-Thanks for the offer but I do not need any work at the moment. Custodial Arts, is that for lawyers who take advantage of old rich people suffering from dementia? Sounds like you have some expertise in the exploitation rackets. I wonder what other departments you there are in your school? Is grad student matriculated? Wouldn't be SOA would it, oops I meant Whisc?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Usually one who is in the custodial arts is engaged in the maintenance or cleaning of a facility. Janitor, Latin for meaning “the Janitor of heaven.”

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    if only some of you would send your time better then trying to define Jim's political beliefs...Ophelia is tracking a bit more west then at first thought today..this means bad news for Cape Fear.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    GregZ, I don't understand your point. I'm here to listen and learn and share my thoughts about important issues. PPJ is a frequent contributor to TL comments, so I assume he wants to be heard and understood. I'm trying to further that end. But I'd also like to be prepared for Ophelia. What do you recommend?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    AD-Sounds like were top student in your Custodial Arts degree. Did you minor in Ethnic cleansing. Is that where you learned Latin? BTW what is Ethnic Cleansing in Latin? Those Romans really knew how to run things, didn't they. Now you seem ready to take on the urban blight you describe so eloquently in your comments. What techniques are you going to use. In case they did not teach you this: hose 'them' down first whatever you do. I hear that 'they' have all sorts of bad habits and diseases. You sound pretty tough but do not underestimate what scrofulous can do to a white man. 'Those people' have built up an immunity after all those generations of welfare. I hear that they were actually better off with the first welfare (it actually worked well back then) it was called slavery. That's when the white man could really look after 'them' and 'they' actually had to work. Are you going to run for Mayor and clean up your city like Guilianni did for NYC. Good luck he barely made it out with his life, all that tar and feathering. But I am sure they taught you how to get out of town quick in one of those 'cleaning' courses.
    That’s what we needed more low-income black welfare recipients with their wonderful and congenial attitude ready to make our place a better neighborhood.
    Your irony wasn't lost on me. I know that you are up for the job. Instead of just a sports stadium (what the dumb mayors try to build) why don't you build a real Coliseum, with lions and all. With your Latin background I am sure you can pull it off. I bet those welfare freeloaders will learn to work after a few sessions in the arena. And think of the revenue you can generate by using dead beat prisoners when all the welfare losers are gone. Feel free to expand on my suggestions, you obviously have a great imagination.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    I hear ya, but most people spend more time commenting on what Jim said rather then what TL said... where you at on the east coast punisher?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    GregZ: people spend more time commenting on what Jim said... All the more reason to encourage Jim to clarify his meaning and views. GregZ: where you at on the east coast punisher? I'm not on the East Coast

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    I don’t want to build a Coliseum and I don’t want run for Mayor. I also don’t want to sound like a racist, for that I’m sorry. I just get frustrated when I see good people STILL being left behind in education and employment that the rest of America enjoys. It seems to me that welfare just breeds dependence, which inhibits opportunity to grow and create and explore avenues that make you who you are. Being on a fixed income is no way to live, especially for young boys who will grow to be MEN forever encapsulated in the shortcomings of their education.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    AD: I just get frustrated when I see good people STILL being left behind in education and employment that the rest of America enjoys. Agreed. AD: It seems to me that welfare just breeds dependence... That sounds like a genuine risk for some people. How would you feel about a welfare program that was designed to be a short-term interim solution to help people get into jobs after some limited period of job-search and training?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    Yes, Adam, you're absolutely right. I know what: what we most need, post-Katrina, is to make the tax cuts permanent! Dollars going anywhere but into corporate coffers and campaign funds promote a culture of entitlement, after all. OMG: Bush with his tax cuts and efforts to thoroughly eliminate the Department of Education has been on a heroic crusade to beat down poverty (not a crusade to help the wealthy and sate his ignorant base!) but sadly, we were all too blinded to see it!

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    glanton; Point taken Punisher: It's sounds good but it gets complicated.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    oops reverse that, glanton..punisher

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    AD, it sounds like you might like the program that was started by Clinton, was called "Welfare to Work," and is now known as Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF). It is a part of the Department of Health and Human Services and it lists as its goals: -Assisting needy families so that children can be cared for in their own homes, -Reducing the dependency of needy parents by promoting job preparation, work and marriage, -Preventing out-of-wedlock pregnancies, and -Encouraging the formation and maintenance of two-parent families.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    AD-Does welfare have the same effects on corporations that it has on the poor.
    It seems to me that welfare just breeds dependence, which inhibits opportunity to grow and create and explore avenues that make you who you are.
    The argument against welfare subsidies and for corporate subsidies is hypocritical and really unbalanced. Republicans often call 'corporate welfare' investment. Well if you take a fraction of that money and use it to invest in education and job creation for the poor perhaps we will start to chip away at the urban blight you mention. The drug laws are also an unfair tax that squander the unused talents the poor (often black) in our cities. If the vast sums of money spent on punishing this nonviolent population were redirected to education, mentoring and job creation we would have a much more vibrant society and less of the blight we all dislike. For an indepth picture of the vastness of corporate welthfare see what Ralph Nader has to say. Or if you can not stand him try this.

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    DA-It must make him feel all black and dirty as he is a big recipient of it. How does he like the term Corporate Wealthfare?

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    Riverbend has a 9/11 memorial from Baghdad that made me cry. I am glad she is back as she had not posted since 7/15. I was worried that she had been arrested. I have been following her posts for the last two years and often wept after reading what she and her people were going through. Check out what she thinks of 9/11 and the WOT. Riverbend

    Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    looks as if Ophelia is again headed for us here in Wilmington this morning. Schools are being called off and some beach areas evacuated. this storm has fooled even the best of experts.

    Saturday Open Thread | 46 comments (46 topical)