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Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State?

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:06:52 PM EST
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Former CIA Analyst Larry Johnson writes over at David Corn's site:

Staying the course and enduring further casualties while the insurgency grows stronger is an insane policy. If we persist on that front we will end up strengthening the hand of Islamic extremists and their role within the Iraqi insurgency.

Our choice is simple--either we invest in the military resources and personnel required to defeat the Sunni insurgents and allow the Shia and Kurds to consolidate power or we withdraw and let the Shia, Sunni, and Kurds find their own solution. We cannot ask our soldiers and Marines to give their lives and sacrifice their bodies for a new Islamic state.

It is true that our withdrawal will create a major vacuum and damage our prestige. But the alternative, i.e., that we stay and try to train up sufficient Iraqi forces and help the fledgling Islamic Government get on its feet, will leave us the favorite target of insurgents and terrorists. And after we have shed the blood of our sons and daughters in trying to create a new government that will be controlled by Islamists, those Islamists will ultimately insist that we leave Iraq and no longer meddle in their affairs.

Rosy scenario does not live in Iraq. Until we come to grips with this truth American soldiers will continue to be killed and maimed for no good reason.

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    Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? | 26 comments (26 topical)
    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    Too bad "we" aren't being consulted. "Soldiers and Marines" is a canard. What he means is the permanent despair of the dragooned National Guard, aided by underequipped soldiers, and thousands of mercenaries getting five times their pay. Marines, oohrah, many of which probably are so psychotic for their Corps that they won't notice they were never going to win this war, except for Halliburton (and the fine folks at Treasury Transfer Services). 'Which corporation is it this time?" (overheard from Marine walking over piled corpses).

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#2)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Our choice is simple As much as I want to see the U.S. out of Iraq, I cannot agree with this analysis. Our choice is not simple. Steps need to be taken, through international agencies and conferences, to prevent civil war and to protect the (already greatly battered) innocent.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#3)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    agreed theo. in fact, it was this "simplistic" approach that got us in trouble in iraq to begin with. what is needed is sufficient troops (say, oh, 500,000 or so) to do the job right. get the iraqi military up and running, to the point where it can operate on its own. if a nation's military is unable to provide security for that nation, its government will have a short shelf life. a clear, well articulated plan for putting iraq back in full operating order would be the first thing on my agenda. of course, that's me, not our supreme leader. that mccain would stick with this dimwad, given his actual military experience, shows how truly unqualified he is for the job of CEO of u.s.a., inc.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    what is needed is sufficient troops (say, oh, 500,000 or so) to do the job right.
    Very Minor quibble, if you take Kosovo as a model and keep the soldier to population ratio the same I believe it comes out closer to 750K In any case where are they going to come from? A draft would be political suicide and would staop this effort in its tracks. If you think I'd let my 18 year old go over and be killed for this illegal nonsense you are out of your mind.
    iraqi military
    I'm beginning to think this will be even harder than we think given the ethnic divisions.
    a clear, well articulated plan for putting iraq back in full operating order
    This is the point I believe. There is no safety or public services. They can write constitutions every day of the week if they want but until some progress is made by the central government in making people's lives better they will get no where. Sadr, playing both sides of the street as usual, is tell people that the Shias currently in charge are incompetent and US stooges. People have back Sadr in the past because he has delivered food, safety etc. Whether he still can we'll see.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#5)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Curious what Iraqi citizens think of all the help we are giving them. Or are we just helping an imposed government faction in a civil war? Bush has delivered on none of his promises in Iraq. What has been delivered is death and destruction on a great scale. And we continue the war. Even Bush's biking buddy Lance Armstrong can see the simple economic costs of this misguided war, beyond all the death. One Billion dollars a day, in revealed and hidden costs. What would one billion dollars a day get you in human aid and rebuilding Iraq rather than in arms? What would one billion dollars a day get here in America if we stopped and thought about what we have done and what we yet might do?

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Steps need to be taken, through international agencies and conferences, to prevent civil war and to protect the (already greatly battered) innocent."
    Maybe in a different universe, yeah. In this universe, our actions over the last several years have left us without the credibility or diplomatic capital necessary to accomplish such steps. For a while, I accepted the "we broke it, we have to fix it" theory, but it now seems clear that we can't fix it. The best thing we can do, for ourselves and the Iraqis, is to get out ASAP.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#7)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    What kills me is that our women soldiers are dying so Iraqi womens' rights can be destroyed.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    in this draft constitution it says "no laws against Islam" and "no laws against democracy" so if the majority votes for a non-islamic law Iraq disappears?

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:44 PM EST
    Soccerdad- How is Al-Sadr playing both sides? He has always been critical of US puppets, Sunni, Shiite, or Kurd. He has been the most consistent in calling for a unified Iraq and US out since he emerged as a force to be reckoned with. The only thing that struck me as initially surprising was his alignment with Chalabi. A move which got Chalabi the Vice Premier position. Even though I am still unnerved by that alignment, I realized that Al-Sadr understood sacrifice for the bigger picture of a unified Iraq. I think he is not to be underestimated; his immense popularity is only shadowed by Sistani.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#10)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:44 PM EST
    Didn't I tell you this would happen 3 years ago?..bush cares nothing about people or the death of millions he is about control for the one world ideals, and dealers of total evil. you will see deals being made soon, deals that will make many more extremists states that will be used against you. its all a political prostitutes and the fact is most of you in the end will sell your kids into real prostitution is sad. and i mean it just like a said it, "total prostitution".

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:44 PM EST
    The "choice" is no choice at all. No, there will not be enough American troops in Iraq to end the violence. No, no other country is going to send people to die in this idiotic war so American troops will be spared. No, the Iraqi "army" will never amount to anything. The Iraqi "army" is, and will continue to be, a joke. And no, the US is in no position to rebuild Iraq. And no, the US does not control the Iraqi oil supply now, and it won't in the future either. The occupation of Iraq is an irreversible failure, and has been for a long time already. There is no amount of wishful thinking that is going to change that.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:44 PM EST
    "Why should we...." Because it's a noble cause, silly rabbit. No questions on the definition of noble cause allowed.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:44 PM EST
    PIL writes:
    'Which corporation is it this time?" (overheard from Marine walking over piled corpses).
    PIL, might you offer us some proof for your untoward statement? You can't? I didn't think you could. et al - Actually the new constitution has wording that should give us some cheer. Opps, excuse me. I forgot where I was at.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    I'm not about to let Republicans make us take responsibility for this mess with crap like, "Why don't you have any ideas", or "We should support an Islamic State in Iraq". No. It is your mess, it has been your mess from the very beginning. YOU come up with the good ideas. YOU deal with the emerging Islamic State. The reason why I don't have any "good ideas" is because I would have never approved of doing something this stupid to begin with. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a country like Iraq, which is really nothing more than a bunch of ethnic tribes cobbled together by the first world for it's own economic agenda, is NEVER, in our lifetimes, going to resemble the democracies of the western world. That's why wiping out the entire government foundation there and starting from a clean state was such a notoriously bad idea. And it's YOUR bad idea, rightwinger, not ours. YOU come up with those great ideas. YOU solve this problem.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    And seriously, constitution, shmonstitution! It's a frickin piece of paper. We have a fine constitution in this country....but take a trip into any ghetto in the U.S. and you'll watch the constitution as well as the rule of law break down in a hot minute. You can pat yourself on the back all day with your little constitution. In the real Iraq, women are still uneducated prostitutes who can't leave the house without a man, kids can't go outside for fear of being kidnapped, and ordinary men are stoned to death for drinking even a drop of alcohol. Yeah, a fat load of good your constitution is doing!

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Posted by Jim: "PIL, might you offer us some proof for your untoward statement? You can't? I didn't think you could." You didn't think, and not for the first time. Haven't you met the oohrah Marines yet? The ones who tell me they don't need no stinking armor? The ones who tell me that they think the only good Haji is a dead Haji? The ones who tell me that they love to kill, and don't care if it is for a just war, since it's killing that they like? The ones who are proud of their engagements in Panama and up and down the spine of the Americas? The ones who are proud of invading and conquering Hawaii? The ones who are proud of the Mexican War? All their acts of the past, like the Boxer Rebellion, when they destroyed the Summer Palace in a looting episode worthy of pirates? IF a Marine will fight under the UCMJ with regard to their responsibility to fight JUST wars and NOT TO FIGHT unjust wars -- they have my support. Otherwise, they are war criminals.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Fenria- I would love to agree with you, but when America is led into War by a bunch of roving psychopaths, it is our problem. The finer distinctions you bring up have little bearing on the fact that we are Americans and America is responsible for this horror. Also you may be misled about Iraq by the mainstream press. It had quite a high standard of living compared to most mid-eastern dictatorships, and is not necessarily controlled by a "bunch of ethnic tribes cobbled together by the first world" although your point is well taken, and Chimp King would like us to think that is the case. See this reader's comment on the Urban intellegencia in Iraq, at Juan Cole's site.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#18)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Soccerdad- How is Al-Sadr playing both sides?
    In the sense that his people who are in the government are trying to maintain power by working with the Shias while at the same time declaring that the shia government is incompetent so that if the whole mess goes in the toilet he will look like an outsider. If it doesn't go in th toilet his people will have gained influence in the government. He's covered his bases. He is a force, but compared to Sistani he's nothing.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#19)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    PiL,
    The ones [marines] who tell me that they think the only good Haji is a dead Haji? The ones who tell me that they love to kill, and don't care if it is for a just war, since it's killing that they like?
    Your fake kissinger quote was kind of funny. Now you're just the low point of the whole TL experience.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Another totally nonresponsive statement by you, roy, who as YARR (Yet Another Racist Republican), spend your time here pretending to be human. The Kissinger quote was reported, and as such cannot be confirmed, but the Kissinger War Crimes are not in doubt. So WHY was he nearly put in charge of the 9i1 Commission? Because he is a 'statesman'? He is a thug. A white-collared, perfume-powdered THUG. And you ... well, a thug-kisser.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    SD-What do you mean by "his people in gov." Moqtada Al-Sadr was against the election for a long time and realized that the best way to oust America would be the political process. He aligned with Chalabi supported by the Dawa party in the January elections. Earlier when Chalabi was aligned with the US they were enemys. Sadr also controls the mahdi army Hakim's guys in the gov. are SCRII, and he runs the badr brigades who aligned with the US against al-qaida. All of them are shi'. Al-Sadr was accused of killing Hakims brother but so were the Americans. Al-Sadr aligned with the sunni's against a loose federation and worked with Sistani to unify the nation. Hakim is for a for a southern federation (US) al Sadr is against it. There is no one else that represents the underclass as strongly as Sadr. He has had two unwavering positions, US out of Iraq, and a unified Iraq, and can rouse up unskilled fighters like none other than Sistani.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    squeaky, People loyal to Sadr were elected. Wish I had time to discuss. Have you seen this

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    SD- I am familiar with much of the info on the link you provided. I do not agree, and think that swopa's take is superficial and grossly underestimates al-Sadr and what he represents. Al-Sadr has not been playing a double game, in fact he has been extremely consistent. That is why he commands such tremendous support and respect especially among the Iraqi poor.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    "It didn't matter that the cleric had millions of followers or that he was scion to an important political family with a history of standing up to tyranny. (His father was killed by Saddam's regime for fomenting revolution in 1999. His uncle, Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr, was killed for leading an insurrection against Ba'ath rule in 1980.) "It didn't matter that Sadr's forces were providing food aid to the poor, or organizing traffic patrol and garbage duty in an atmosphere with no basic services." --Aaron Glantz
    Only a FANATIC would try to gain political power by actually doing good things for people. Luckily Bush ain't no humanitarian. He just blows things up, including about 30,000 Americans.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    PIL - You talk to a lot of Marines. You stand outside the base gate? Catch'em in bars? How? And why, since you know so much about them.

    Re: Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Gee, Jim, get a clue. I'm a protester, and I get to talk to military both in uniform and not. Who knows how many who aren't in uniform CLAIM to be Marines are actually Jeff Guckert-Gannon prostitutes for the rich who never served. But the ones in uniform have been quite specific, some of them, especially Marines, that they can do no wrong once they hold a gun for Uncle Sam. How wrong they are: Winter Soldiers Investigation Lots and lots of non-professional soldiers created by the rightwing legacy of racist lies leading to war. You've helped ruin the military, Jim. How proud you must be. And now, Bush has added MERCENARIES, on a scale unheard of in US combat. Putting our soldiers next to thugs who make four times their daily pay, and who have no legal or moral duty at all. So when the mercs do something truly heinous, as, say in Fallujah's Blackwater Four, the random population gets to suffer for retaliation. And a lot of actual soldiers get the bombs in blame. Then there are C-in-C's with their "Bring it on" hot rhetoric on their way to another vacaction. That bit of unprofessionalism got soldiers like Army Spec. Casey Sheehan blown away two days later. WHAT an accomplishment. Fanatics for profit, like Bush and Cheney, and other fanatics for bloodlust, like mercs and oohrah Marines. NEITHER represent the United States. Both represent the failure of human morality and judgment, and both dishonor the flag.

    Iraq: Why Should We Support An Islamic State? | 26 comments (26 topical)