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Learning From Poker Boot Camp

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 07:23:33 PM EST
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Marc Cooper writes that he learned at poker boot camp how to tell when Rumsfeld is lying...which is all the time.

When people start sucking their lips into their mouths, they’re probably lying or bluffing. That’s what I was taught this past weekend in a poker boot camp by former FBI counter-intelligence officer Joe Navarro.

Joe was offering us campers a seminar on how to read body language. When it came to the lesson on lip-sucking, he emphasized the above point by saying: “That’s why every time you see Don Rumsfeld on TV his lips pretty much altogether disappear.”

There's lots more. [Via Kevin Drum and Crooks and Liars]

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    Learning From Poker Boot Camp | 17 comments (17 topical)
    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#1)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said that a good government should lie a lot. Or maybe that was Goebbels. Whichever. Point is, this guy hates freedom, democracy, and the troops.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    So a good player will give you a fake "bluffing" tell and take all of your money. If this guy is a player I'm a FBI agent.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#3)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Rumsfeld is always lying its his job to lied to you and lies for bush and business, its a normal way of life for my boy big old Rumsfeld, didn't he also lie for Reagan and lie to you back in 1983 when he made friends with saddam? over some oil deal? at one time he called saddam his best friend, do any of you remember that one? and let us not forget the drug dealers he knew in Pananma and El Salvador and the deal he made for bush one with Red China about your jobs and how he goT in on the bush two oil deal ( SEE BCCI BANK) that made millions on your backs..yes Rumsfeld a guy for you.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Actually...with Rummy you can tell by seeing his lips moving, rather than disappearing. But he really believes every word he says since he is quite possibly insane. Euro-communism vs. Ameri-fascism?

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    In my poker travels I've found the guy with nervous tics is usually bluffing, the guy with the fake smile is bluffing. George Bush bluffs a lot. PPJ, if Rummy wanted to give off a false tell, he'd false tell he's got the goods, because in reality he does not:)

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    kdog - The issue really is body language, and I have had several classess on same. I have found most of it interesting, but about as accurate as feeling/counting the number of bumps on a "criminals" head when it comes to poker. Not that it may not be there, and not that it may not be correct. The question comes down to: If he's doing a fake bluff, I've just lost the rent money. You need to know a lot more than the fact that he has a goofy smile or sucking his lips. Besides, I thought all politicans lied all the time. ;-) BTW - Get some of Mike Caro's books if you are interested in the subject. He has actually made his living in poker for 30 years or more.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    PPJ..Agreed, tells are far from an exact science, the same tell can mean different things from different people, just passing along what's been working for me in the underground clubs, the ones that haven't been raided yet:) Caro is excellent, I've read his work. I recommend "Tao of Poker", I thought it was informative and had lots of practical advice. But as I'm sure you know, no book can match time spent on the felt.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    PPJ, while it is true that someone with just a weekend training camp education in poker would get taken by an experienced old pro like you, it is probably good advice for an amateur going up against other amateurs who don't have this kind of training. If he were offering a seminar that promised the attendee that they'd be able to go against the big guys afterwards, well, yeah, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. To criticize a teacher because he didn't offer advanced training in a beginning course is a bit odd, to say the least. Here's a webpage about him: Link
    If this guy is a player I'm a FBI agent.
    Joe Navarro (FBI Special Agent, retired) is an internationally recognized expert on nonverbal communications and interviewing, as well as an educator.
    That was from the St. Leo University website about him, which, granted, probably puffs him up a little in order to sound good, but it sounds like he's been around the block in this area, if you know what I mean. I would think that someone with experience in interrogation would be able to use the same skills at the poker table to great effect, as the goal of getting info that another person has but isn't all that willing to give up while keeping information flow to the questionee at a minimum is in many respects similar to what takes place at a poker game. Call me crazy, but I think it would be odd if someone with his background/experience/training wouldn't be a good poker player. Congrads to you anyhoo: you manage to pull off a Microsoft Technical Help imitation: Correct information that is useless when applying it to the case at hand, which is Rummy, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, the point is that his observation about body language can be applied to Rummy, and I can't think of a reason for Rummy to be faking his reaction(a false tell) in front of the camera. Can you enlighten us in this area? Perhaps it isn't a tell, Rummy just hasn't heard of lip balm, chapstick or petroleum jelly? et al, BTW: This is a classic PPJ tell at work here: Denigrate/disparage/minimumize anything that makes Bushco look bad, while avoiding facts and logic to make a counter-argument. Also Any careful observer has learned a lot about tells by reading PPJ's posts here, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    kdog - True. Every time I think I have the game down pat I get my head handed to me. DA - Have you nothing better to do than make a 412 word comment complete with a couple of misspelled words because I happened to comment I don't think the guy is a poker player? I even noted that body language is useable. So what's your problem? You don't like me? Get over it dude, I wouldn't have a beer with you either.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    Have you nothing better to do than make a 412 word comment complete with a couple of misspelled words because I happened to comment I don't think the guy is a poker player?
    I don't know, do you have anything better to do than attempt to shoot down the messenger because you don't like the message? I even noted that body language is useable. So what's your problem? True enough. But you implied that his not mentioning this fact(which you don't know if he did or didn't as you weren't at the seminar) made his credentials as a poker player invalid. I merely noted that his past job involved a skill set that overlaps those needed for playing poker, and on that basis, disagreed with your assesment. That you see that as 'my problem' is your perception, not mine.
    You don't like me? Get over it dude, I wouldn't have a beer with you either.
    It would be amusing to have a beer with you, as your bullying attempts in real life are probably funnier than they are here. Besides, I was raised to despise stupidity, so perhaps you shouldn't take it personally..........

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    DA writes:
    True enough. But you implied that his not mentioning this fact
    DA, I implied nothing. I just said that if someone starts talking about tells in poker without noting their limitations he isn't a poker player. If you don't like that, tough. And no, I still wouldn't have a beer or any social contact with you no matter how hard you beg. BTW - The trend is down. You have one spelling, one grammar and one typing error in this one. Really, can't you do better? Or is it, as you have claimed about me, this is a serious tell about your emotional state? What do I think? I think you are just apt to make mistakes.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    PPJ- Spell check certainly doesn't make you seem remotely intellegent, Genius man.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    DA, I implied nothing. I just said that if someone starts talking about tells in poker without noting their limitations he isn't a poker player
    Sincce u wheren't therre, u dont knoww iff inn facct hee mentionned thhat tellss havve theirr limitss off usefulllness andd caan bee fakedd. And no, I still wouldn't have a beer or any social contact with you no matter how hard you beg. Soorry, butt Eye neverr saidd Eye wantted too havve a beerr wiith u, Eye jusst tolld u waat mi reacttion wood bee iff we everr weree having a beerr togetherr. Really, can't you do better? Or is it, as you have claimed about me, this is a serious tell about your emotional state? Perhapss Eye plahnted thim too distractt u und geet u offf youre gamee. Didd u everr thinkk auf thatt?
    What do I think? I think you are just apt to make mistakes.
    Noosireee Bobb, everythingg frum nauw oon goess throuugh thee speel-checkered, Eye sugggest u doo thee samee, yule feeel muchh betterr, Eye no Eye du.......

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#14)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Here is a poker tip from the great Kenny Rogers.
    You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em Know when to walk away, know when to run.
    Its time to "fold 'em" and "walk away" from Iraq.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    John H - Heck, I didn't even like his singing. I'm sure not going to take his advice. ;-) Squeak - You came late, very late to this discussion. In the meantime, speaking of intelligence, tell us about your belief that genetics, family and social position should be used to judge people. DA – You are so transparent. To avoid proof reading you are writing like an idiot. That is so funny. Keep it up. It gives me what I want with no effort from me. BTW – How do you like the corner? I mean the one you are trapped in?

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    watt cornerr arre u talkinng aboutt, PPJay? eye seemm too rememmber thatt u triedd too doo watt eyem' dooing, butt itt onle lastted fore won postt. Off coarse, itt helpse iff won liks too usse wons' imaginnation, fore u too due soo wood probabbly paneful, butt thatt isntt' thee casse fore mee. eye jusst pretendd thatt eye'm sumone whoo wass borne andd broughtt upp in Louisianna, andd mi fingurs flyy acros thee keybored lik eye wass Horowits att Carnayge hal. Ass Presidend Jacksone wonce remarkedd:
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word
    soo bye teling mee thatt thiss iss harde, u've tolded us aboutt youre minde. ett Al: Noticce thaat PPJay stil hasnt' said weather Rummis' lipp actionn iss a telll, whiche wass thee pointt off thiss threade. eye willl goe oute onn a limbb annd sayy thatt itt iss, soo thatt thiss threade getts backk onn thee originall topicc, despise PPJays bestes effords.

    Re: Learning From Poker Boot Camp (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPJ-judging by your continually repeated distortion of my comments regarding Rove and his family, it is clear that you must have had to defend your position regarding your personal family history. Racism and family history is a hot spot for you, and I doubt that it is for the idealistic version you have sputtered forth. Are you a softer and gentler version of your grandpa, have you evolved from a string of fascists to become a fair minded and virtuous self determined individual? If this is so, the relatives that have had no influence over you are either horrible beyond belief or people I would have of loved to know.

    Learning From Poker Boot Camp | 17 comments (17 topical)