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Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth

By Jeralyn, Section Legislation
Posted on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 08:38:25 PM EST
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Maybe I've been in a cave somewhere, but I really didn't know that the feds and states are proposing laws requiring doctors to offer pain medication specifically for the fetus to women getting abortions at 20 weeks or more - and to tell them that the fetuses feel pain.

Anyway, now there's a study to refute the notion.

Taking on one of the most highly charged questions in the abortion debate, a team of doctors has concluded that fetuses probably cannot feel pain in the first six months of gestation and therefore do not need anesthesia during abortions.

Their report, being published today in The Journal of the American Medical Association, is based on a review of several hundred scientific papers, and it says that nerve connections in the brain are unlikely to have developed enough for the fetus to feel pain before 29 weeks.

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    Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    I do sarc, I respect the right to life position, I just disagree. And you know how I despise prohibitionists. I probably dislike abortion as much as the average right to lifer, I just don't want abortion to be illegal. I'm all for doing all we can to keep them to a minimum. I'm in agreement with grad as well, whether the fetus feels pain and to what degree is irrelevant to the abortion debate. Either a fetus is a part of the woman's body or an individual life. I'm in the women's body camp.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    What about medication for the men who want to take away the control women have over their own bodies. They are the biggest pain of all.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    No, squeaky, the big pain is the tramp/whore who seduces some completely innocent guy and then God gets her pregnant as punishment! /wingnut

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    This issue is absurd. There are only two logical possiblities. Either (1) The fetus is a child, in which case he/she shouldn't be killed regardless of anasthesia, or (2) The fetus is part of the woman's body, in which case there should be no government interference into what she does with it. In neither case does it make sense to debate whether the baby should be anesthetized while their limbs are ripped off and their skull crushed.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    This is total crap. I base this on two things, common sense and personal observation. Common sense: my public school education tells me that 29 weeks is a little more than 7 months. Does anybody really believe a fetus, which is perfectly capable (with help) of surviving outside the womb before 29 weeks, can't feel pain? Personal observation: in my wife's first pregnancy, we'd play a little game (long before 29 weeks). We had a crystal coaster that we'd put in the fridge a few minutes to make cold. Then we'd put in on her belly and watch in amazement as our daughter moved to knock it off. So she can react uncomfortably to cold, yet not feel pain? They can call this a 'reflex' as some did in the article, but I don't buy it. Then again, I'm just an icky man. Let's put it to the mothers of TL. What do you say?

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Frankly, though one always tends to perceive foetal movement as somekind of motivated response to stimuli, if you consider the level of awareness and inability of the born child to even be aware that its limbs so much as belong to it, you realise that any movement is reflex. Moreover, the notion of pain is a difficult one : there is the reflex reaction to remove a portion of your body from a painful situation, which happens by a spinal marrow feedback (and therefore is disconnected from any awareness of pain), and then the signal that arrives at the brain. What I understand this study as saying is that before 29 weeks, the signal doesn't get to the brain. This doesn't mean that the spinal marrow feedback loop isn't already in place.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    I can touch a worm and it will move in response even though the worm doesn't have a brain. The functioning of reflexes at the spinal level without participation of the brain is an established fact in human physiology. It is also well know that the human brain is "immature" at birth particuarly in the higher brain centers needed for cognition. The brainstem, medulla+pons, is well developed at birth and it is these areas that are responsible for much of autonomic function such as breathing. In fact patients with severe damage in higher brain centers but with an intact brainstem will continue to breath on their own. I know that hundreds of years of medical research are no match for common sense and people's beliefs

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#7)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    The word "probably" clinches it for me! It reminds me of the PETA program about whether fish can feel the hook or not.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Soccerdad, you make some excellent points. But we're not worms. We feel pain; the question is when. I just don't believe it's only in the last 2 months of its development that the fetus feels pain. But that's only an opinion. So let's look at the 'hundreds of years' of medical research you mention. According to the article, it's inconclusive. It's littered with terms like 'unlikely', 'infer', 'unknowable', etc. Not exactly a slam dunk.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Wile, Exactly, how does the word "probably" in the statement correlate to "Early Fetal Pain is a Myth?" So I guess late term abortion is painful as hell to the "fetus"

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Scott you've obviously missed the point...er..No you haven't.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    The procedure that the radical right has termed inappropriately as "late term abortion" is very often performed on fetuses that have died in utero. So, I guess the fetus does not feel any pain during the procedure. The pain is felt by the women in whose body the fetus was growing. Emotional, spiritual, and physical, often life-threatening. That is real pain. if you are against abortion don't have one.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Why bother with this research, is the scientific community trying to please moral zealots? They should know better, there is no pleasing a zealot.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    There was an interesting report in the local rag (Raleigh N&O) today about the abortion doctor and NARAL staffer who contributed to the lit review. Apparently the publisher had no idea. -C PS - I've got three kids and I know all of them felt pain when momma ate too much Pad-Thai 'round about the 7 month mark.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    "there is no pleasing a zealot." kdog, hey, we agree on something. For example, there is no pleasing those who think every law they don't like is tyranny. Grad has it right, if a 7 month-old fetus is not a child, why even discuss the issue?

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Ya got me sarc, when it comes to the policies of prohibition I am zealot-esque. I will not be satisfied until prohibition is repealed. Sorry OT.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Hypocrites. Let the damn fetuses lobby if they are unhappy about being aborted. If you all, who seem to care so much about the defenseless and downtrodden there are plenty hungry and suffering non debatable lives out there who could use a hand. Unconditional support may be too much to ask though. Usually if the downtrodden do not follow the right wing Christian program they are left to suffer and die. On with the Crusades! Kill all heathens and godless commies.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    No problem kdog, I hope you would give the same respect to those who feel just as strongly about infanticide.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:41 PM EST
    Maybe a 7 month old fetus can feel pain...but ever so conveniently, late term abortion is illegal. End of discussion.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:41 PM EST
    ever so conveniently, late term abortion is illegal. End of discussion.
    Just so everyone knows, Fenria is making that up. Here are the facts. (you'll need Adobe Acrobat to open this) Note that abortion is unrestricted for the duration of the pregnancy in 14 states, and most other states also permit late-term abortions for various reasons. ...and in Canada (lest anyone cares) abortion is likewise unrestricted. You got it folks: the day before the baby is born she can be killed. Pain or no pain.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:41 PM EST
    Scott I was replying directly to the points you made not the article in toto. "Feeling" pain in more than a purely reflexive mode requires cognition and higher brain function which is very immature a birth. Significant anatomical changes in the higher brain occur in the first 2-3 years of life, so for you to assert that its a slam dunk that they feel pain, in a way similar to adults, is not supported.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    oh please, grad student, no ethical doctor would advised and consent to an abortion at 40 weeks unless the fetus DIED in utero. No woman would want or request such a procedure then.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    brave, please take into account that grad was taught to hate god and can't remember where he/she matriculated or graduated. And the "No woman" comment is sexist. If a man can lie about the reasons for going to war, thereby killing 1800+ of his fellow citizens with no risk to himself, I'm sure some woman somewhere could request a 40 week abortion. (Ehhh, obviously I meant an abortion at 40 weeks, but given the vagaries of human desires, who knows? ;-)

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    grad student forgot these facts from the same site he linked to different article. less than 2% of all abortions in the US occur after 20 weeks of pregnancy less than 0.08% of all abortions occur after 24 weeks when the fetus is viable. link

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    Squeaky writes:
    Usually if the downtrodden do not follow the right wing Christian program they are left to suffer and die. On with the Crusades! Kill all heathens and godless commies.
    And how many children do you support? et al - I am pro choice, and hope the woman doesn't have the abortion. But it is a terrible thing and this study proves nothing beyond the author likes weasle words.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    Oh Grad, I never get tired of you...I do hope you're majoring in something that involves more symbolism than logic, though. As most OBYN's will tell you, there is no point in abortion when the limbs are "ripped off," while the fetus is alive, and they don't really "crush" the skull either. But I do appreciate the symbolism. It's the dishonesty I don't like, so unless this is like your snafu over blastocysts (and I bet it isn't) cut it out.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    Jim-I support people I see on the street, from homeless to needy. I also give to charities. I do not support the unborn or dead. Also if I give support to a street person I do not ask them about their politics nor what they are going to do with what I give them. I am far from a saint though. Once I passed up helping a very drunk old man with no legs who fell out of his wheelchair; he was rolling around on the sidewalk and about to roll onto a busy street. I was a bit drunk myself and in Munich. The Nazi connection (assumption) was too much for me to rise above. I do wish I had more compassion, for instance I find it hard to have any compassionate feelings toward you.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    soccer - relatively rare yes, illegal no, so my point about Fenria's fantasy stands. Also keep in mind that 0.08% of 1.2 million per year is 96000. That's not a small number of deaths, and it's occuring every year in the US. c-law - you were a little less snotty in our last exchange, expecially after we each had a snafu. For info on the methods used for abortions after the first trimester, go here. The D&E method (most common after 12 weeks) uses 'suction and instruments', meaning the doctor tears the fetus apart with forceps and then sucks the pieces and blood out. I've seen video of this being done, and I can assure you they do rip off the limbs and crush the skull (as if it matters how they perform the execution anyway - it's still wrong) et al (as PPJ would say), I'm heading up-province for a 2-week vacation, so I won't be responding further to arguments on this thread. Cheers!

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    correction - 960, not 9600.

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    960, sounds like a lot, but most of those if not all are hydrocephalic, or otherwise fatally-compromised fetuses that will never have life outside the womb in any case. As for the study, the provision of anaesthetic is meaningless in a fetus with significant hydrocephalus, for example. There are no higher centers to feel any pain or cognize it. Just like with T. Schiavo, there was no cognized pain, there was no ability to see, there was no response to verbalization as such. Removing the body of such a failed fetus may appear cruel, but C-section is far more risky for the mother -- THE LIVING PART OF THAT TERRIBLE EQUATION. If there is any possibility of cognized pain in a failed fetus, anaesthesis is obviously proper. But pretending that fetuses without brains should be carried to term is simply suggesting that mothers expose themselves to death ... for nothing. (And they aren't even in the National Guard).

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    What's fascinating to me is that this conversation is dominated by men -- who can't conceive, don't carry children and usually don't take primary care of their children (btw, don't bother arguing to me that there men who do because my husband is one of them; I've been the primary breadwinner for 10 years)

    Re: Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    Grad sent me to a site that confirms what I said...I know he's not "responding" anymore, but what the heck? I guess the fact that there is damage to the fetus with certain procedures is where he get the "limbs ripped off" thing.

    Report: Early Fetal Pain is a Myth | 32 comments (32 topical)