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Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert

It's events like this that make me wonder whether this country has gone completely mad in its perverse love affair with law and order. Read what happened at a rave concert in Utah as told by a Daily Kos diarist who was on stage playing in the band when it happened- "Helicopters, assault rifles, tear gas, camoflauge-wearing soldiers.... why? Was that really necessary?" He says the event was entirely legal and every permit had been obtained.

And if you have a blog, please publicize the Utah event. When the cops start acting like terrorists to attack our kids, it's time to say enough.

Some snippets:

Last night, I was booked to play an event about an hour outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. The hype behind this show was huge, they presold 700 tickets and they expected up to 3,000 people total. The promoters did an amazing job with the show...So, we got to the show around 11:15 or so and it was really cool. It was all outdoors, in a valley surrounded by huge mountains. They had an amazing light show flashing on to a mountain behind the site, the sound was booming, the crowd was about 1500 people thick.

Then came helicopters, cops with assault rifles dressed in camoflauge and dogs:

A few "troops" rushed the stage and cut the sound off and started yelling that everyone "get the f*ck out of here or go to jail". This is where it got really sticky.

No one resisted. That's for sure. They had police dogs raiding the crowd of people and I saw a dog signal out a guy who obviously had some drugs on him. The soldiers attacked the guy (4 of them on 1), and kicked him a few times in the ribs and had their knees in his back and sides. As they were cuffing him, there was about 1000 kids trying to leave in the backdrop, peacefully. Next thing I know, A can of f*cking TEAR GAS is launched into the crowd. People are running and screaming at this point. Girls are crying, guys are cussing... bad scene.

Here's what others witnessed:

One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.

The Daily Kos diarist says It was a legal event.

This event was 100% legal. They had every permit the city told them they needed. They had a 2 MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy for the event. They had liscenced security guards at the gates confiscating any alcohol or drugs found upon entry (yes, they searched every car on the way in). Oh, I suppose I should mention that they arrested all the security guards for possession.

The lawsuits already are being filed:

The promoters already have 6 lawsuits ready to file with their lawyers and the ACLU is already involved. I'm sure some pictures (and hopefully some video) will surface soon. I'll make sure to post them up here on 404, so you can see the Police State of America at work.

p.s. - there are more stories of police brutality that i'll post up later. gotta hit the airport soon. can't wait to get the f*ck out of this sh*t hole state.

Here's the Sheriff's statement of what happened. He says there was no permit and rave concerts present a danger to kids.

Utah County Major Crimes was contacted to assist with undercover surveillance. Both local and state SWAT teams were called in to control the crowds ( Utah County Metro SWAT, Utah Department of Corrections out of Salt Lake and Gunnison, Department of Public Safety and their helicopter and Provo SWAT) approximately 90 law enforcement personnel combined.

At 9 pm the Rave party began and by 10 pm Major Crimes observed numerous illegal activities. Which included illegal use of drugs, distribution of drugs, and underage consumption of alcohol.

It was verified that more than 250 individuals were at the party, in violation or county statutes and by 11:30 pm law enforcement personnel moved in to curtail and disburse the party. During this process at least 60 arrests were made for weapons offenses, DUI, illegal underage consumption of alcohol, possession of marijuana, possession of cocaine, possession of methamphetamine, possession of ecstasy, distribution of ecstasy, resisting arrest, assault on a police officer, and disorderly conduct.

He says the rave was in violation of county statutes. But, go back to the Daily Kos diarist's account:

...The police were rounding up the staff of the party and the main promoter went up to them with the permit for the show and said "here, I have the permit." The police then said, "no you don't" and ripped the permit out of his hand. Then, they put an assault rifle to his forehead and said "get the f*ck out of here right now."

Some video is here and here.

On a related note, use of swat teams isn't being reserved for rave concerts. Our local news reports today that they have been on hand in Boulder when students returned this week. My sentiments about that are here.

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    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#1)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:35 PM EST
    This should be seen in combination with preparations for martial law. As the WSWS wrote less than two weeks ago:
    the American working class faces the danger of some form of military-police dictatorship in the United States.
    Pentagon devising scenarios for martial law in US By Patrick Martin, 9 August 2005

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#2)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:35 PM EST
    Needless to say they were not really soldiers. I would guess deputies dressed in camo.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    WTF dogs in camouflage???? Send em to ayrak where they can do all the bullying they want. Fascists ...Orrin Hatch must be pleased. At the RCN convention in NYC the legal protesters were directed by the police to keep moving along a described path only to find themselves trapped in a cul de sac where they were all arrested. Bloomberg and Pataki were pleased.

    WTF dogs in camouflage????
    Haw. I read it the same way, Squeak. I think what was intended was "men in camoflage with guns and dogs..." not "men with guns and dogs in camoflage..."

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ben Masel on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Flaw in the Utah County Large Assembly ordinance from the Ordinance... 13-4-2-1. Required. No person shall permit, maintain, promote, conduct, advertise, act as entrepreneur, undertake, organize, manage, or sell or give tickets to an actual or reasonably anticipated assembly of two hundred fifty or more people which continues or can reasonably be expected to continue for twelve (12) or more consecutive hours, whether on public or private property unless a license to hold the assembly has first been issued by the County Commissioners. To get the license, you must first contract Porta-potties, dumpsters, medical professionals, etc. All of which come under "promote, conduct, advertise, act as entrepreneur, undertake, organize, manage." So in order to get a permit under the ordinance, you must first violate the ordinance. We won a facial challenge to the nearly identical Sauk County, WI Mass Gathering Ordinance last year, on appeal after they jackbooted on the Weedstock festival in 2000. ruling. Just recently settled with the County for damages and fees.

    I just changed the dog/camoflauge sentence - it was inartfully stated, the cops were in camoflauge and had dogs with them. Sorry about that.

    This makes sense. Cause you know there is no bigger threat to our freedom then a bunch of kids waving glow sticks, sucking on pacifiers, and dancing the night away. I guess they should be more like our president an just do a bunch of coke. B

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    So much for our right to peacably assemble, hey gang? This country is dead, and has been dead for sometime. Freedom reduced to a shadow, a memory.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Legal concert? I somehow think I'm inclined to believe they did not have all the permits they needed. I dunno, call me crazy.
    So much for our right to peacably assemble, hey gang?
    Right you are, assemble, do drugs, get raped...Hey how come prison rape is such a big deal here, but venues that cater to the rape of a females unable to consent due to intoxication get a free pass? Strange priorities I guess.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#10)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Wow... Words fail me. Freedom is slowly leaving...

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Legal concert? I somehow think I'm inclined to believe they did not have all the permits they needed. I dunno, call me crazy.
    So much for our right to peacably assemble, hey gang?
    Right you are, assemble, do drugs, get raped...Hey how come prison rape is such a big deal here, but venues that cater to the rape of a females unable to consent due to intoxication get a free pass? Strange priorities I guess.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Did I miss something Pat? The stormtroopers were looking for a wanted rapist? Who got raped? Maybe you misread "rave" as "rape"? Or are you referring to the prison rape that is sure to happen to some of the non-violent drug offenders that got pinched? The sheriff's vague references to sexual assault don't impress me, if that was his concern he'd be raiding every corner tavern as alcohol is the number one date rape drug. Even a law and order guy like you should be able to admit that a raid such as this is madness. Drugs and booze at a concert....shocking!!! Call in the dogs, sick 'em on the kids!!! Don't forget the tear gas, it's a war!!! Massive tyrannical overkill, I hope some parents get together and sue the pants off the sheriffs dept. for endangering their children's lives.

    Plus, if you're so worried about sex assault maybe you should go check out the Mormon guy (I know not all Mormons) down the road who has 4 wives, 2 of which he married at 14. B

    Oh yeah, Patrick, it's all about protecting women from getting drunk and having sex. That's why you always see the SWAT teams busting into every single bar every night. Oh, wait, you don't see that. So don't goose-step so high. Thanks.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    WTF cops with assault rifles dressed in camouflage and dogs. Sounds insane. Why camouflage and assault rifles? Were they looking for Osama? Nice touch that security was arrested for the drugs they confiscated.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    I'd kinda like to know just who they were serving and protecting by threatening to kill people? At least that's what I infer when some c**ks***er puts a gun to the promoter's head. Beating and kicking people for their own protection. Sounds logical.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#17)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Right you are, assemble, do drugs, get raped...Hey how come prison rape is such a big deal here, but venues that cater to the rape of a females unable to consent due to intoxication get a free pass? Strange priorities I guess.
    Sorry Pat....I've got to point out that you are sort of missing the point here. They had security guards hired here to try to keep this sort of thing from happenning...probably lax on the drugs...but looking out for the violent crimes. If the permit was not obtained, why didnt they contact them before raiding the party and tell them that it wont happen w/o the permits. There were a million different ways to handle this that would have been much better than sending in SWAT and dogs and tear gas. That's the kind of stuff you're only supposed to use on enemies...Or...is the enemy of the police force its own people in this case? What about the people there not doing drugs or raping anyone or holding weapons, etc but just enjoying themselves? They got some teargas too. They also were chased by these dogs. That's just not right. You dont endanger your own innocent people like that to break up a party. That's absolutely rediculous.

    Public law clearly states that there will be no having fun in Utah. Period. Ummm...except if you are a fascist cop out to bust some heads heh heh. Maybe they should change the name of the state to Patrickland?

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#19)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Using excessive force like this is what turns people away from its law enforcement. Next time those kids might bring guns to the rave and then what a mess we'll have on our hands huh? You can only treat people like $&!t for so long before they start to fight back. That's not a situation that we need to provoke in any way.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Pat-Sounds like you wish you were there, wearing camouflage, and gassing those drugged out hippie rapists. Maybe you were?

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#21)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Peace,
    They had security guards hired here to try to keep this sort of thing from happenning...
    My experience with these things is they can frequently get out hand, thus endangering those innocents present. Take your choice. This is another example of the no-win situation cops are frequently placed in, so I don't take the criticism's too seriously. No one posting here was there in an independent observer roll. I'm inclined to believe the "teargas" was probably pepper spray, the dogs were in cars or walking the perimeter with the handlers, and well you can guess the rest. I'll go this far...If everything was exactly as reported by, what I would consider to be biased witnesses, then the cops went too far. I think what we'll find is there are two very different versions of events and the truth lies somewhere in between, and more likely than not closer the cops version. Squeaky, Maybe I was, were you? Ernesto, Patrickland would be a helluva place.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Pat-was not there. Check out the video. The dogs were not in the cars or perimeter. Why are you so apologetic for the police. Do you believe that reports of police violence is usually exaggerated? My experience is that is is usually underreported.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#23)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Squeaky, Yes I do...but that depends on how you define it. I'm "so apologetic" cause I is one, and I believe the people on this site are biased against the police (Which makes it fun for me to come here) and over-report/embellish their reports of misconduct. Are cops blameless? No, not at all, but when all someone does is run them down, they lose their credibility even when they report legitimate misconduct. BTW, video link is not working for me, so if you say so. But that does not necessarily change my POV.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Pat-Having power means having responsibility. Often, I have seen a bad mix of power and unaccountability. I am glad that you come to a site that may not reflect your views. My hope is that instead of developing increased contempt for the public you are increasing your wellspring of compassion.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Iím glad someone finally took the initiative and kicked the crap out of a bunch of high kids. After all, it was only a mater of time before the dancing got out of hand and the crime spree began. Right? Anyway, this was just miles from my home so Iíll be sleeping easy tonight without this to worry about.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#26)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Worrying about all the kids dancing that is Ö you know, high and all. Serious business, that.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#27)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Assault rifles and camoflage? soldier wanabees? pepper spray and/or teargas? for a rave? I wonder about the sanity of that sherrif.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Maybe I'm lookig at this all wrong, think of all the rapes the sheriff prevented! All the girls who got pepper sprayed are surely grateful. I'm sure all the kids learned raving is wrong and drugs are bad and police dogs are your friends and machine guns are tools of the righteous. Surely none will rave again, at least till next weekend:)

    Yes, dancing and loud music is really such a bad thing that cops dressed in soldier attire are used to shut it down. Welcome to the United States of painfully boring, where correct entertainment consists of reading the old testament aloud to your chastity belt clad children and engaging in the time honored tradition of emperor worship in the form of prostrating one's self at the foot of Bush. It's no wonder kids in this country are so violent, they've got nothing else to do, and no other way to blow off any steam.

    In order to save the concert, it became necessary to destroy it.

    Well, I just watched the video that Patrick was conveniently unable to see. Yeah, these cops seemed like they were really looking out for teenage girls, going up to the DJ of all people spouting freedom-talk like "shut it down or I'm taking your a** to jail." Tackling kids and holding them at gunpoint. It's too bad you're the only one who can't view the video, Patrick, because it seems to contradict everything you say about how this was all tough love.

    Oh, and I forgot the universal signal that a cop feels he's within the bounds of good taste and law: "Put the camera down NOW."

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Cops never lie. And they deserve our praise even if they do. They only live to serve us in our time of need ... in LA, Miami, New york, New Orleans, London ... but of course I come here not to bury cops, but to praise them.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#34)
    by terry on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Will the authorities provide us with a list of which types of music are acceptable and which types warrant a para-military raid? In the 1930's only jazz performances would get this type of attention.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    We should stop b*****ing about Bali. At least there's no evidence they committed violent acts against a non violent alleged drug smuggler. From Patrick: I somehow think I'm inclined to believe... My experience with these things is they can frequently get out hand, thus endangering those innocents present. Yeah that's a real concrete justification there. So well-armed pigs should kick the S**t out of innocent people, and you justify this violence against these kids a by saying you think they might have caused some trouble. You popo's are all the same. An overcompensating bunch of small d***ed cowards. This isn't over.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    When did Stalin become the governor of Utah? They sure hate freedom out there.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#37)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Scar, From the second video link on this thread...
    You have requested a page that is not available on The Underground Network. Please check the URL, and try again
    yesterday the first link shows only 55 second of what indicates is a 2.07 minute video, but I thought I'd try again just to humor all of you. I saw the whole 2:07, and it seemed OK to me. You never see what led up to those 2 or 3 arrests. They may or may not be justified, the courts will make that determination. I don't see anything wrong with the cops actions. I don't know what to tell you scar, that's what I see. Che,
    Yeah that's a real concrete justification there. So well-armed pigs should kick the S**t out of innocent people,
    I saw none of that...Perhaps we viewed different video clips. The worst I heard was "Take your a$$ to jail." No F-bombs, no gratuitous beatings.... Like I said, no-winning here... Especially from people who refer to the police as pigs, but based on those types of comments I don't really expect much. Squeaky,
    My hope is that instead of developing increased contempt for the public you are increasing your wellspring of compassion.
    No worries there, I'm clear that the commenters here do not represent the views of main stream America, which is part of why I get so much enjoyment...

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#38)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Patrick: Taking the cops side in anything on this blog will get ya in trouble.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Especially when the police act like paramilitary goons.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Pat-So I guess that makes you a troll.

    The worst I heard was "Take your a$$ to jail."
    Maybe if you can explain what crime the DJ was committing, I'd understand why this isn't a problem.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#42)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    None of the videos work for me either, not even partially. The acceptable level of violence used by police officers seems to increase every year. Dogs are ok if they "patrol the perimeter", "I'm taking your *ss to jail" is fine (as long as they dont say "fu$k"). Welcome to the police state, formerly known as america.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#43)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    I'd like to direct a couple of points towards our friend phat pat. First of all...it seems to me that police officers should be trained on how to not induce a riot when breaking up a party or dispersing any type of croud. I mean when you bust up a party with paramilitary presence, you have to expect to be scaring the ever living hell out of them, or at least triggering some sort of highly emotional reaction. If you do something like this, you have to expect chaos, which could easily get out of hand. This should have been handled differently from the start for the safety of the officers and concert attendees alike. That was just a dumb way to do it in my opinion. Secondly, so if they're trying to prevent rapes and violent crime, what about the possibility that between the start of the party and the time the cavalry rode in some of the violent crime had already taken place? Then the victims of those crimes were both victims of the the violent crimes and the pepperspray and dogs of the police (the perps of another crime, or so it seems to me). They apparently knew about the party way beforehand and should have broken it up before it started if their true intentions were to reduce the possibility of violence. It just seems to me that they put themselves and the concert attendees in a situation that could have very easiy escalated to an extremely serious situation.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#44)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Especially when the police act like paramilitary goons.
    Well they belong to paramilitary organizations, so I guess you would say they were just doing ther job.
    Pat-So I guess that makes you a troll.
    I don't define myself by the labels people incapable of understanding the complexities of human nature, tend to place on things. If in your mind that makes me a troll, then label away.
    None of the videos work for me either, not even partially.
    Scar don't read that post...Tends to support my "convenient" position.
    Maybe if you can explain what crime the DJ was committing, I'd understand why this isn't a problem.
    I heard the Cops direct the DJ twice to stop playing, (Shut it down) before they resorted to profanity. Failing to obey a lawful order is a crime whether or not you agree with the order or not.
    This should have been handled differently from the start for the safety of the officers and concert attendees alike.
    There are many ways to skin cat. I don't know from the limited video what legitimate criticisms can be defined, but it's certainly an area we can agree to disagree. What I did see in the video was't panic or pandemonium. I saw some participants leaving, some staying and 2 or 3 getting arrested. There were even a few just casually walking around the venue.
    They apparently knew about the party way beforehand and should have broken it up before it started if their true intentions were to reduce the possibility of violence.
    If they had the appropriate resources available, with the appropriate time to plan they should have had a presence there, but it was not an unlawful assembly until they assembled.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#45)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    What I did see in the video was't panic or pandemonium.
    But you must agree that regular civilians are definately going to be alarmed by a helicopter, police dogs, and people dressed in camo with machine guns. The higher the emotions encited by the people being alarmed, the higher the likelihood that they will go freakin insane...especially if they, as the cops seem to insist, were all drugged up or not thinking clearly for whatever reason. While few would probably attack a cat w/ a machine gun, they might cause harm to each other trying to get out. Or really God knows what might happen when you mix guns, dogs, alcohol, drugs, masses of people and a concert atmosphere. My point is, you're unnecessarily increasing the likelihood of a bad situation.
    it was not an unlawful assembly until they assembled.
    So...cops are only retrospective? They cant prevent illegal things from happenning? You see...this, to me, destroys the case for busting in there even more b/c if they cant even prevent an illegal assembly, what makes them think they can prevent violent crime at the party by breaking it up? I realize that they cant take them to jail for assembling before they assemble, but there had to be a set up peroid for the concert, lots of planning, equipment being brought in probably for two or three days before the concert, etc. That seems like plenty of time to tell them that they cant have their little get together and plan a way to put some of their guys out there before it starts on concert days to send people home one by one, quietly telling them there will be no party. No camo, no guns, no dogs, very little chance of a riot or chaos. (By the way I think it's retarded that they broke the party up in the first place if they had their permits. But that's not the point since we dont know for sure if they had their permits or not)

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#46)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    If they had the appropriate resources available
    By the by, it seems that they had plenty of resources. (Helicopters, dogs, and paramilitary cats in camo.)<-- Resources

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#47)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Patrick, you're a wimp like most cops. Why would we say bad things about policemen? Because we are smart enough to believe our own eyes and ears. Not your supposedly-objective (hardly) BS propaganda, backed by: guns, helicopters, dogs, mace, pepper spray, tear gas, choke holds (banned-yeah...right) and our "current" favorite, the taser. and your friends STILL needed armor. What a bunch of cowards. Yeah, your a real soldier braving the words of a few independent thinking individuals to spread the party line. Smack 'em down wherever you can. Is that your current assignment? Well hit us with all you got, bro. We're just gonna laugh and keep on coming.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#48)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    But you must agree that regular civilians are definately going to be alarmed by a helicopter, police dogs, and people dressed in camo with machine guns
    Well, do I have to? You say I must, but from the looks of what I saw on the video, most people were not overly alarmed. I will admit it's truly hard for me to tell one way or another based on a 2 minute video clip.
    So...cops are only retrospective? They cant prevent illegal things from happenning?
    No, not totally, but in my experience 90% of police work is reactive. But you are right, they could have approached earlier if the had the information and shut it down before it developed. The problem with that assumption is we don't really know how many people were there, when the cops knew the party was happening, how the cops responded once they got the information etc... I could list dozens of variables which we cannot and do not know which would have effected the way the police responded. From what I saw on the video, absent that information, I see no disproportionate response.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#49)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Posted by Che's Lounge at August 23, 2005 02:23 PM
    Your entire post only attcks me...If that's all you've got, you have my sympathy. Not everyone can be as "brave" as you.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#50)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    You say I must, but from the looks of what I saw on the video, most people were not overly alarmed.
    Ok...put yourself in the position of whomever was planning this goofy ass idea and think to yourself..."Self, in this day and age of occasional terrorism even in the US and at times instable weirdo uprising where they might dress in camo...etc. What would I, patrick the regular party goer, think of a helicopter coming over the horizon and camo dudded guys with machine guns running through the crowd with (loud a$$ mutha f*/%ing barking) dogs think about the situation?" I think that's what people need to think first when doing something like that. Then, if you can imagine, try to think what a crowd of people influence by no telling what kind of chemicals is going to think and how are they going to react. Once you ask yourself those two questions, if the answer is "uuuuhhhhhhh" then it's probably not a good idea. This time, nobody was badly injured or killed. We may not be so lucky next time. What you're essentially doing is trading possible violence for possible violence. I dont think it's worth it. Even if it's illegal, if you dont have the resources, let them put on their party and fine the ever living hell out of the concert organizers the next day if they didnt have their permits. If they did have permits then put uniformed cops out there on the property while the party is going on to help control the madness a little bit. Less chance of provoking insanity that way. There are a million ways to handle this that could have been better and made more sense without putting everyone at risk. Not to mention how bad it makes your police force look to send camoed guys w/ machine guns, a helicopter, and dogs to bust up a party.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    If they used row boats, put the dogs in camouflage as well, and waited a bit longer, no one would have known. The stealth-op would have really worked and they would have avoided all the bad press. Dogs without disguise and loud helicopters are really what made them look stupid; with a little more effort they could have hidden the fact that they are retards.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#52)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    with a little more effort they could have hidden the fact that they are retards.
    Wow...I have never seen someone miss a point so badly.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#53)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Peace, This is an area where we are not going to agree. If I were there, I would think the cops were coming. In this day and age of terrorism and whackos dressed in camo, I would think a rave party in the bowels of Utah would be the last place the terrorist would attack... If trading potential violence for potential violence controlled by law enforcement is the only option, (which I don't think example bears out) Then I would obviously choose the potential of controlled violence with a law enforcement presence. Like it or not, the police are not private security, and I doubt the party goers would have supported their presence there anyway. Kinda puts a damper on the drug sales, underage drinking, sexual assualts, fights etc, dontcha think. It only makes law enforcment look bad to those who have already made up their minds anyway. Like I said, it's a lose-lose for the police, especially here.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#54)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Kinda puts a damper on the drug sales, underage drinking, sexual assualts, fights etc, dontcha think.
    But isnt that the whole point of breaking it up in the first place? I find it hard to believe they went to all that trouble to break up a party b/c they didnt have the right permits. If they did, then I REALLY think it was wrong to break it up the way they did.
    It only makes law enforcment look bad to those who have already made up their minds anyway.
    Increased instances like this will just increase the numbers of people that have made up their minds to feel sour towards the policia.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#55)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    But isnt that the whole point of breaking it up in the first place?
    Yes I believe it was, and I also think it's the primary reason for the permit process as well. They go hand in hand. At least where I work, we review and approve all use permits for venues such as this.
    Increased instances like this will just increase the numbers of people that have made up their minds to feel sour towards the policia.
    It very well could, but I don't think this one is the example you want to use to prove the point.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#56)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Your entire post only attcks me...If that's all you've got, you have my sympathy Yes that's all I have. A brain, two opposable thumbs and a keyboard. No guns, no mace. You need those things to feel empowered. Tell me, do you ever question your orders or are you just another mindless automaton that acts without conscience? Maybe I'd have more respect for the law if they had more respect for me. It very well could, but I don't think this one is the example you want to use to prove the point. How many tasering, beating, shooting in the back videos do you need?

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    Peace-I am happy to give you a new experience, but what is it that you think I have missed here?

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#58)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    what is it that you think I have missed here?
    Ha...my bad...I think I totally misinterpreted all that the first time I read it.

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#59)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    It very well could, but I don't think this one is the example you want to use to prove the point.
    Why not? This is one of their experiences with police. People develop opinions from their experiences. Ask this girl what she thinks: "Another girl next to me said to one of the soldiers that she didn't know how to get home as they had just arrested her friend. The soldier told her to walk home. My friend tried to grab her to bring her with us, but the soldier began yelling that she had touched him (which she hadn't). WIthin seconds, five soldiers had jumped on her and were literally beating the crap out of this innocent women. She was punched in the face, thrown to the ground, and kicked while down. All for worrying how to get home safely. She is now suing." That's supposed to be a firsthand account of what happened. It's rediculous. Here's the link

    Re: Utah: Ravers Attacked by Cops at Legal Concert (none / 0) (#60)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    Usually, a police presence is the result of a complaint. Who made the complaint in this instance? The property owner? No, he didn't call the cops. Adjacent property owners? Apparently not. The organizer? Nope. Partygoers? If they have, I haven't read of any so far. Given the somewhat countercultural aspect of most ravers I know, they want as little contact with police as possible, and not merely for purposes of hiding illegal activity; a fundamental orientation against any form of authoritarianism (as opposed to authoritative governence; there's a big difference) seems to be common among many ravers. I doubt seriously any of them made the call. So...who dropped the dime on the ravers? And why? If no one did, and the LEOs had prior knowledge of the alleged lack of permits and did nothing to contact the organizers to warn them of that (to ensure it was an honest mistake on their part and not be forced to expend the taxpayers dollars in breaking it up), then what are we to conclude save that this was a punitive expedition? You know, like colonial powers used to do to teach the nig-, uh, the spi- um, the goo-, nope, not them, uh, oh yeah, the ravers their place? I am old enough to recall a televised briefing given by Bull Connors to his men on the importance of keeping the White Freedom Riders and their Black Southern compatriots seperated; made it easier to (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) 'maintain order'. An order maintained with lynchings, firebombings, cross burnings and shotgun murders by masked goons. It would seem that while Mr. Connors is long gone and lamented by few, his ideas of what constitutes 'order' are still largely in operation. Including vicious dogs and the pointing of weapons in the faces of the unarmed. It always seems that as soon as one group achieves political power and is able to force the Powers-That-Be to get off their backs, a new group becomes the target. It used to be Blacks; now it's illicit drug users and ravers. "The more things change..."