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14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed in Iraq

And the war marches on, taking more American lives....

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    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#1)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    How high How wide How long will it grow to be? Each life replaced with a brick set in morter mixed with tears We watch We cry We wonder How high How wide How long will it have to be? This Our own Iraqi Wall of honor,pain and shame. How high How wide How long will grow to be? ED Beckmann Viet Vet ret

    Here are some links to Stephen Vincent's work. In the Red Zone; links to 20 different articles; Faith, Shame and Insurgency; On Again, Off Again; Interview with Stephen Vincent. If you are going to use his death for this purpose, it would be good to read his work.

    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#3)
    by Guav on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    For added context, here.

    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    George's War continues.

    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#5)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    Stephen Vincent's articles are very interesting, and well worth reading. Here are some quotes from his article in Reason:
    I’d come to Iraq to test my beliefs. Back in New York, I’d been a firm and vocal backer of the war, though not necessarily of the Bush administration. . . .. But a question had always nagged me: How could I truly endorse the war unless I actually went to Iraq? How did I know my assumptions were correct? And so last fall I traveled to the cradle of uncivilization, staying in Baghdad from mid-September to late October, with a four-day trip to the southern city of Basra.
    Despite Iraq’s former claim to be the most "modern" culture in the Middle East -- despite the presence today of high-tech gadgetry, Internet cafés, and multichannel cable TV in a Babel of languages -- the country is in many ways reminiscent of America in the 1950s. In the absence of a civil rights mentality, ethnic, racial, and religious differences are seen as legitimate and natural grounds for discrimination. . . .. Women generally live terribly restricted lives, wrapped in black head-to-foot sheets no matter the temperature, excluded from public activities, and confined mostly to the kitchen and the bedroom. (Although Iraqi women once had more extensive rights than women in many other Middle Eastern countries, they lost ground in the 1990s as Saddam increasingly adopted Islamic law to placate his restive Shi’a population. Today they are among the most oppressed women in the region, with illiteracy rates climbing above 75 percent.) Gay rights are unknown.
    I don’t mean to overstate the problems facing the U.S. in Iraq. Still, it bothers me to see supporters of the war assume that events are going better than the "biased," "liberal" media depict them. That may be true sometimes, but not always. Iraq is too complicated for such simple analysis -- a fact I admit I had not sufficiently considered when I stood up to endorse the war. Now, when I’m asked if the U.S. can succeed, I can only join others in answering: "We must. The prospect of failure in Iraq is too catastrophic to conceive." It’s not a policy so much as a statement of faith: that the center will hold, that democracy and freedom will triumph, that tyrants cannot long escape accountability and justice.
    In other words, a brave, sometimes very insightful man -- one who was not willing to insulate his beliefs from the facts, and willing to change his mind -- has been lost to us.

    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#6)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    Anybody heard Linda Foley on how journalists have been targeted? There's another guy doing something of the sort, although he mostly hangs with a particular Army unit, so he's safer from kidnapping but more likely to get hit in fighting. Michael Yon. Good stuff.

    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    Gosh, it turns out that I knew Vincent from the NYC artworld. I do not quite agree with nolo that he changed his mind. I do see from his writings that he had some compassion for other points of view and he seemed to be struggling with apparant contradictions. He naively believed that if the Iraqis could only understand how great America was they would all change. I have to commend him for going to the ma and putting his life on the line; many of his friends told him he was nuts to go and would come back in a body bag. Jonah Glodberg, who, on the other hand is way to impotant to put his life on the line to support his wingnut views. Thanks to Juan Cole who exemplifies compassion in his support for Vincent's honorable and respectable choice to do research in a war zone, even though he may not share Vincent's position on the war.

    Bush, reached on vacation, said Wednesday that he WOULDN'T BE GOING TO THOSE MARINES' FUNERALS, EITHER. Screw the orphans, full speed ahead. (Overheard walking back to his golfclubs, he muttered, "None of 'em are Bush's anyway, no how.")

    If you are going to use his death for this purpose, it would be good to read his work.
    So fleetguy... he went to Iraq because of the 9/11 attacks? That was a fatal flaw in reasoning that a lot of people apparently suffer from. Except most of them send other people to do the dying for them. As for a purpose...if you could show what the purpose of any of these deaths are then go ahead. Otherwise, go fight your own crusade and leave others out of it.

    While I didn't agree with all of his opinions, I certainly applaud his courage. I applaud the courage of all journalists who put their lives on the line to give us the stories from up close and personal. You can't get that from a newsroom desk.

    We've lost so many of the troops lately. I believe 37 in the last 10 days. What a complete waste of lives. I feel the same way about the people of Iraq. A terrible, and pointless waste.

    Re: 14 Marines, Interpreter and Journalist Killed (none / 0) (#11)
    by John Mann on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:54 PM EST
    From the BBC:
    "We're at war. We're facing an enemy that is ruthless. If we put out a (pullout) timetable the enemy would adjust their tactics," Mr Bush said in a speech in Texas. "They want us to retreat. They will fail. They do not understand the character and the strength of the United States of America," the president said. He added that the best way to honour the US dead was to complete the mission in Iraq.
    ...and blah, blah, blah. Apparently someone forgot to tell Mr. Bush that the war on Iraq has already been lost, and no matter what he says, there will be no graceful exit. I can't imagine how this incredibly contemptible individual will go down in history as anything but the most hated and destructive president ever.

    You got it John Mann. The war may well be lost already. As George Will put it recently, If the IRA could keep the UK tied down with only 200-400 gunmen/insurgents, how many decades until we whittle down the Iraq Insurgency to even that level?