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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 09:14:07 AM EST
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Did anyone watch the hearing? Is there other news? Your turn.

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    Friday Open Thread | 34 comments (34 topical)
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    NYC to begin random searches of subway passengers, or in other words, NYC to begin massive violations of the fourth amendment. The searches won't catch any terrorists, though I predict drug possesion arrests will increase significantly. Freedom isn't free, we must all be brave in the face of the threat of terrorism and keep all of our glorious freedoms intact. The freedom to not be searched by agents of the state without probable cause is one of our most precious freedoms, and to let the state take it away is a victory for the enemies of freedom. Stop the cowardice!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Right on, Kdog. More madness in London

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Linkmeister on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Barbara at Mahablog live-blogged the hearing.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    I agree that the random searches are unconstitutional (although the Constitution tends to say different stuff in New York than it does elsewhere). But the NY subway system is an obvious target; how do we prevent a London-like attack in NY?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Roy, You are flesh and blood. You can't protect yourself from everything. Someone wants to walk up behind you on the street, stab you in the back and run away, they can and could easily get away with it. Don't think that's a good example? It happened here in San Diego, TWICE, in the last few years. With this type of violence, you either stay strong or you reduce yourself to living in a useless police state. I mean, come on, you start checking hardcore at the subway stations, they'll just go somewhere else. There are so many gun in this country, any terrorist who wanted could machine gun a crowd at a mall, then blow themselves up, and we'd hardly have time to breathe before we were dead. Being a rational creature in a cold, indifferent, irrational universe is a tough thing. But I will suggest this: fighting fire with fire is a nice cliche, but it is usually empty in this context. We need water on this fire. We need to "fight" a new "war", one in which we sell concepts and ideals to the world that the "terrorists" cannot offer. It is really our only choice. It's called recreating this "battle" using the greatest commodity we have to offer -- imagination.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Kdog.. Freedom isn't free, we must all be brave in the face of the threat of terrorism and keep all of our glorious freedoms intact. It's a fine line my man. How do we do this & not piss anybody off? I have an idea but I'm sure it wouldn't go over too well. It would actually involve ... dare I say it.... profiling! I know it's not pretty, but I think if we concentrait on middle eastern types...we might be more successful than stopping grandma with a big purse? Common sense...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Timothy McVeigh looked quite white (as did the Unabomber), but who knows, maybe he was a middle eastern type in his heart.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    BB...Profiling is not an option I can live with. 99.99999% of the "middle eastern types" mean no harm. To single them out for searches and harassment cannot be allowed in a free society. We all know increasing police state tactics would probably make us a little safer (not much in my opinion, FWIW), but that is akin to surrendering to the terrorists in my mind. The common talking point is "they hate us for our freedom." So for heavens sake, don't lessen our freedom! I wonder about people who support totalitarian tactics, and which side they are really on. PS...My paternal grandmother was 100% Lebanese...does that make me a "middle eastern type"? I'd hate to think my citizenship is of somewhat lesser value than others simply because I have dark hair and eyes.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    mar... You are confusing things... The two are very different. McVeigh was a crackpot that hated the government (much like many of the lefties that post here)... while our problem now (meaning the average American civilian) is the fact that muslim radicals want us all to die... get it now?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Kdog... Fair enough. But that .00001% can cause us great harm! So what would you do? As far as I'm concerned puting a few people out, for the safety of the vast majority, is acceptable. I know of no other way to get at the root of this problem. If it was me (middle aged white guys with grey hair) being looked at, I'd try my very best to make sure the people that were causing my kind to be scrutinized were put out of business.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    McVeigh was a decorated Desert Storm warrior..... [TL: Remainder about McVeigh deleted. Not only is name-calling not allowed on TalkLeft, but I'm sure you all know by now he was my client and so insults about him are particularly not going to be tolerated here.] When you say 'our problem now' is Muslim radicals, the fact is that, subway bombings aside, the real risk remains NUCLEAR. • Bush is doing NOTHING to decommission the nuclear materials in the former Soviet Union. • His gang left Tuwaitha and the other eight nuclear dumps WIDE OPEN for over a month in a hostile theater. • Halliburton casually loses nuclear materials in shipments every year. • Bush-backer FirstEnergy had a near meltdown at a nuke plant in Feb 01. No punishment. • Nuclear plant cooling tanks are poorly guarded and perenially vulnerable (cannot be protected fully). • Nuclear power plants like Indian Point are perilously close to major urban areas, and are major terrorist targets that cannot be fully secured. • Bush wants to build more nuclear plants, ie. make us LESS safe. • Bush has ramped up production of plutonium again, which places all of us at enhanced risk of radiation poisoning. • Bush FBI considers EarthFirst! more dangerous than White Supremacist terror organizations like the ones McVeigh belonged to. Muslim terrorists, or white-supremacist terrorists like McVey -- WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Absolutely none. But so good to hear from you, BB, [name calling of another commenter deleted.] [Commenter is warned to stop insulting other commenters.]

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    BB..Do what we have been doing. Increased police presence in the subways. I can live with that, as long as that increased presence doesn't violate my rights. BTW..One moronic thing the city has done is replacing subway token clerks with automated metrocard machines. Before, every station had a token clerk 24 hrs. a day that riders could report suspicious activity too. Now, most stations have no human presence at all, especially during off peak hours. Bring back the token clerks for starters! If I knew any terrorists, I'd tell them to stop the madness. Sorry, my middle eastern features didn't magically place me in some terrorist inner circle. Still, I don't understand what my freedom has to do with the misdeeds of others.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    "We need to "fight" a new "war", one in which we sell concepts and ideals to the world that the "terrorists" cannot offer." Dadler, with all due respect, this is the very definition of futility. Human nature is what it is and what it will always be. You may be "enlightened," and I'm sure you are, but to think that your enemies can or will become so is not practical. imo. Like all conflicts in history, at some point, the eventual loser will tire of dieing. There is no other realistic course of events. imo.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    SUO: "Human nature is what it is and what it will always be." So saith the Lord. However, Mr. Darwin has successfully disproved that idea. What ended the Vietnam war? Many factors, but a main one was TELEVISION. Had there been television to show Germans the actions of the NAZI BROWNSHIRTS on the evening news, the beatings and rapes and attacks on the old and vulnerable, the RESULTING REVULSION might have stopped Naziism in its tracks. Were the Iraq Invasion to be televised like Vietnam, with reporters free to report, and cameras showing USPNAC MERCENARIES beating, raping, stealing, and racism -- the revulsion of the US citizenry would be a potent political factor. Which is WHY it isn't on the air, and instead there is peacetime nonsense about Aruba and Michael Jackson, mixed in with the war lies and jingoist faux propaganda. Television CHANGED human nature. The Internet is changing human nature as we speak. Too bad for you creationists who ignore the massive buttwhupping you got from science in the last 50 years. Too bad for you the racist model of human beings has been DISPROVEN, conclusively.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Sarc...if we have to wait for the crazies to tire of dying, this could go on for a thousand years. They are volunteering to kill themselves in droves to further their perverse cause. To the hardcore allah-freaks, dying is a priveledge, an honor. For all our sakes, I hope your wrong. I'm convinced the best we can hope for is to decrease the number of attacks throgh security and criminal investigations into terrorism and it's fundraisers, and try something akin to Dadler's ideas to win hearts and minds. Bullets and bombs ain't gonna win this one for the simple fact that the allah-freaks view death as something glorious. They won't tire, imo.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    Sarc, I'm futile? Your answer was the single most depressing, cynical, hopeless, lazy, thoughtless thing I've ever read from you. Do you honestly think imagination is that unimportant in this kind of "battle"? In any battle? I suspect you have a very big prejudice against the word, and have never really stopped to think what it means beyond the superficial -- i.e. that it sounds touchy and feely and liberal. Imagination, my friend, if I really need to explain this, means more than cutting and pasting or coloring in elementary school, or being "enlightened" in sarcastic flip quotes -- which seem to be where your understanding of this word, power, concept, stops dead. My obvious point is: We haven't the ability to get into the minds of our "enemies", just as we lacked that ability in Vietnam. And what is that ability? IMAGINATION!! And if one thing is not apparent by now, we are a nation run by an administration that lacks, in every possible respect, the powers of imagination. Their pathetic failures mount as evidence like a mountain. The terrorism we are dealing with is a form organized crime, with layers of complex social/historical factors underneath. By so quickly, blindly and thoughtlessly going to war, as if we were fighting the armies of nations, we fail to address both the organized crime aspect AND the underlying social/historical factors. Instead of adressing them, the Bush administration has ignored them in favor of their own deluded dreams of imposing their will on foreign cultures.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    kdog, dadler, I hope you are right. Mankind has been at war since the beginning of time. This present battle is, in the main, the same as all others since time immemorial. They've all ended...or didn't. The world's greatest thinkers, using their "imagination," have worked on this issue since time immemorial, yet still war exists. No amount of "imagination" will stop the sun from setting tonight, and no amount of "imagination" will stop mankind from warring. Personally, I don't find accepting the truth "depressing, cynical, hopeless, lazy" or "thoughtless" but that's just me. Perhaps, though, when people tire of dieing, they will be open to "imagination."

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Sarc, That you are convinced, with such reactionary zeal, that you know "the truth" in this kind of multi-faceted phenomenon is what is depressing. Very fundamentalist of you. We all have to catch ourselves when we become extremists and reactionaries. I'm as guilty as anyone. I found myself being a reactionary the other day as I listened to RFK Jr. talking about his new issue -- the link between certain vaccines additives and autism. My first reaction, as a parent who didn't want to consider the chance I might have neglected to do my homework and may have harmed my child, was to say "Oh bullsh*t, I've heard this poo-poo'd already". But the more I read, the more I realized he was convincing in his argument, and so was the largely unreported data. And that I HAD been a reactionary, because it was easier and felt better. So check yourself, bud. You're way too confident and quick in religating us to the dustbin of "war is just the way it is and will always be". Do you not understand how utterly empty it is to say something like "no amount of imagination will stop the sun from rising...and no amount will stop mankind from warring"? Empty because, at the most basic level, you are attempting to compare, LITERALLY, rational human beings with things like stars and gravity and rocks. What a pathetic view of humanity, but how conveniently and completely it relieves us of responsibility -- so we were lied to, so the whole thing was a deluded fiasco from the get go, no one's really to blame because jumping mindlessly into war is just our "nature". I guess I have much more faith than you in humankind's ability to learn, to evolve, to become better.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    If war is our nature, then the sooner we drop the bomb and eliminate mankind, the better. Let the cockroaches give it a try. They can't do any worse.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    We don't agree, apparently on a whole multitude of levels, and much of what you write I didn't say nor do I subscribe to. So be it. Peace, Dadler, have a good weekend.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Kdog and I agree. Look out, cats and dogs will be living in harmony. There is no basis for random searches and no need IMO. They only serve to embolden those who will see our diminished freedom as a victory. There is plenty of legal room to conduct searches based on Terry v Ohio or other local case law. Terry only requires reasonable suspicion of a person being armed while being detained before they can lawfully be pat searched. A bomb would be considered armed IMO, although the case was designed for more conventional weapons such as knives and guns. A pat search should turn up a bomb, or bomber vest and would very like be sufficient to devolp probable cause if a further search was needed. Get good cops and train them properly and we won't need exreme measures like random searches. Bad Idea, IMO.........

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Dadler - Nice of someone from southern California to lecture people in NY about having courage.... As everyone likes to say: Fly to New York and ride the subway! Come on. You're not too old! kdog - You can meet Dadler at the air port and you can make joint appearances. Power to the riders! and...... when you get killed the Left can complain about not enough security.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Dadler, The Thimerosol link with autism was debunked, but some people still are making very persuasive arguments. I recently heard it was back in the news, but didn't hear it all. Has that changed?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Dadler - Nice of someone from southern California to lecture people in NY about having courage.... Ain't free speech a b**ch? Let me mark that for future reference: 1. Not allowed to lecture New Yorkers about courage. Any other pearls, Poobah?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Che, yes. You can drive Dadler to LAX. Thanks and hugs and xxx's. BTW - Yes. Your's, Dadler's, kdog's and MINE. But ain't it just heck when someone makes a point. (Not a question.)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    So this is where PPJ's hiding...in the Open Thread... Hey P, the huddled masses await your trolling snark on the Bush "we didn't torture but the pictures put our torturing bastards in danger" Post...if you haven't exhausted yourself trolling the O.T., that is...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Blag - How are ya? Thought maybe you be gone. You gonna go down to NYC and ride the glide with Dadler, Kdog and Che? You know, show some courage, botherhood (yes, that's what I wrote) and that cool stuff. I'll loan you an old portable PA system and you can stand at the subway entrance and sing... We shall not be bombed.. We shall not be bombed.. This day....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    et al - To return to more serious questions...Where are the moderate Moslems?
    "If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.
    Now where did I read the above before?
    In an interview with Reuters, Bakri described Osama bin Laden, leader of the radical Islamist network al Qaeda, as "a sincere man who fights against evil forces."
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Jim, Lecturing someone like me -- who saw dead bodies in his ghetto neighborhood as a kid, who's had guns pointed at him in anger, who suffered from gastric ulcers starting at eight years old from violence and stress (a condition mostly suffered by kids who grow up in war zones) -- well, all I can say is get info before you make assumptions. One could make much more damning assumptions about what living in segregated isolation has done for your powers of self-criticism. Patrick, Listening to RFK Jr., a quite reputable guy, I had to question my own assumptions about hearing that the story had been debunked, which I mentioned. But suffice it to say that a look at history reveals plenty of times when the government, in trying to "protect" us from "greater" harm (in this case people getting scared away from vacccines entirely), they have done immeasurably more damage than they would've had they just leveled with the American people. At any rate, I'm definitely going to pick up his book and check it out.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:34 PM EST
    Dadler - Background? Info? All I did was invite you to go do what you want others to do. That has nothing to do with your background and is not illegal, immoral or fattening. BTW - Now, if you want to argue that it is mostly useless to patrol the subway WITHOUT profiling, I will be in violent agreement. ;-)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:34 PM EST
    PPJ...I am a NY'er and take the subway often...I am urging MY FELLOW STRAPHANGERS to be brave and stand tall for freedom in the face of a threat. My money is where my mouth is. I never took you as a terrorist appeaser. Where's your courage? You won't be on the trains so it should be easy for you. Pat..that is a shocker. I agree with you that random searches are ineffective, though the main reason I am against it is I view it as terrorist appeasement.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:34 PM EST
    Jim, I've been to New York and ridden the subways since 9/11. Stood at the WTC a few weeks after the first bombing in '93. Was in London, too. I was supposed to go to New York this week, and am pissed I can't. And the personal info I provided since you seemed to imply some lack of courage on my part. And to that I said F.U. loud and clear, because there is little you could say that is more personally insulting or lacking in fact. A lot of people in this world, Jim, didn't need 9/11 to wake them up, or make them feel vulnerable. It's new to you. Not to me and many others. And I ain't saying' don't patrol the subways, I'm saying use your friggin' brain and realize that just means they'll move somewhere else. Terrorism is a method, not an army in uniform in tanks. As such, it will always frustrate you if you have no imagination in tackling it, which we don't right now. And simply creating a police state, attempting to guard everything, is just what they want. What we should guard is chemical plants, nuke material, water supplies, all the things that could really cause mass catastrophe. But we stick band-aids on things. Well meaning band-aids, but band-aids just the same. So... What oughtta give you hope is they don't seem smart enough to expand their methods so far. They could kill far more people, far easier, if they just used guns, or a truck to run over crowds of people with, or or or... "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Very true words right now.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:34 PM EST
    [TL: Remainder about McVeigh deleted. Not only is name-calling not allowed on TalkLeft, but I'm sure you all know by now he was my client and so insults about him are particularly not going to be tolerated here.] I didn't know that, but most of the 'names' I called him are things he admitted himself, including the warcrimes. But apologies for treading on your toes, TL. As for the theory of non-evolution of humans and their culture with the evidence being the persistence of warfare -- what bunko. To Bush's chagrin, there is FAR less racism in America today than there was forty years ago. FOX and 'his' other Brownshirt operations haven't been as successful as they thought they would be. Genghiz Bush is the throwback. He's the atavist who is so greedy for money and power that he ignores the Genocide Treaty that many states have signed since it was proposed in 1949. Sure, the US waited forty years to sign it -- and then only after RRR put a wreath on an SS grave of some rightwing billionaire's son. So...the rightwing faction, MEDIEVALIST to the core, proposes the theory that humans don't evolve. What a freakin' surprise. Then they point to THE WARS THEY START as evidence. If we need examples of unevolving mentality, Genghiz Bush is the real McCoy. But even he has to mask his racism within a husk of lies and intensive hatemongering. And most of America is deeply embarassed by the drooling, warmongering idiot.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:34 PM EST
    Dadler writes:
    I'm saying use your friggin' brain and realize that just means they'll move somewhere else.
    Dadler. Read the above comment and see how little sense it makes. I mean, what do you want to do, provide them an easy place to operate?

    Friday Open Thread | 34 comments (34 topical)