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London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terrorists

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 05:33:39 PM EST
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Bumbling, home-grown, holy warriors is rapidly becoming the conclusion of investigators in the London bombings.

The emerging picture of London's mass transit bombers is of normal people leading normal lives, good people from good families - "Suicide Bombers From Suburbia" was the headline in London's Daily Mail.

... According to closed-circuit television evidence, the bombers arrived at King's Cross shortly before 8:30 a.m. They were dressed like campers, each with a backpack, and were talking easily as they gathered, before splitting off in four directions.

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    London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terrorists | 42 comments (42 topical)
    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#1)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:11 PM EST
    First off, much respect and admiration to the British authorities for constructing a system which allowed them to track down these bombers identities in such a short period of time. 'Ordinary' lives of bomb suspects Let's hope this puts to rest the recent assertions about lax immigration laws in England and the dangers that are posed by immigrants. These bombers apparently born and bred within the confines of a free society didn't have to cross any borders to reach their targets, all that was required was a short drive from their residence. This is not a fight between them and us, for in fact what this reveals is that they are us. Although social constructs of "otherness" can be applied to immigrant populations, this is not a question of immigration since it seems any of us can be co-opted by intolerance and fundamentalist ideology. There is no safe community from such people. Here in the US those on the right immediately presumed that these bombings were the result of infiltrators into British society and were quick to blame the British government. When the first American suicide bombers turn out to be US citizens, I wonder who they will blame than. Until we address the underlying causes which produces these people, we will never be able to put an end to this kind of fanatical behavior. Closed intolerant society's are not the answer, they are the problem to begin with.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#2)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:11 PM EST
    From the post:
    The emerging picture of London's mass transit bombers is of normal people leading normal lives, good people from good families -
    Normal people leading normal lives, good people.... do not blow themselves up killing innocent people. Aaron writes:
    Until we address the underlying causes which produces these people,
    And what are these? Remember that prior to 9/11, prior to Afghanistan, prior to Iraq, in March 1997, OBL in an interview with Peter Arnett said,
    but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world
    As some point out, the definition of "aggressive" is important. To that end I again note what happened in France when female Moslem students were required to attend school, and the riots over the Koran "disrespecting." It is simple. Secular law must not intervene with Moslem religious law. Moslems may ignore our ours (France) and we must obey theirs (Koran). And before you think we are immune, read this link of New York city Moslem youths destroying an American flag, saying, ""Oh Muslims! Do you know your enemy? Isn't it obvious?" I have always been hopeful that the moderate Moslems would take control and run off the radicals. This didn't happen in England. Twelve people don't decide to blow themselves up using homemade bombs of imported HE without others knowing about it. That no one went to the police is a damning, and scary, statement.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:12 PM EST
    TalkLeft Previewing your Comment Jim, However much you may want to portray these people as "aliens" the evidence so far does not support your conclusion. You can read profiles of the 4 suspects in today's Guardian. They were normal young men from normal families, born and bred in Britain, with NO previous criminal records. What they did was abnormal, cruel and utterly contemptible and I condemn it utterly - as do all the moderate Muslim leaders who have spoken out in the UK over the past week. So what happened? Why did these men kill so indiscriminately? Why didn't anyone speak out before they killed all those people? These four men had never been to Iraq. They had never been to Afghanistan. They went to Pakistan - one of the USA's "allies". It was in that country that they were exposed to a poisonous corruption of the Islamic faith. It was there they were persuaded that, as Muslims, they were engaged in a violent struggle against an evil, all-powerful enemy. An enemy with limitless financial and military resources to bring violence to those whom it chooses. They were probably shown photos of Iraqi children killed and mutilated by American cluster bombs. They were probably shown pictures of Lyndie England's grinning face as she gleefully humiliated their fellow Muslims. Such is the propaganda that the other side uses in its own War on (Western) Terror. No doubt much of what they were told was untrue or exaggerated. (But then, much of what WE have been told of the War on Terror is untrue or exaggerated too). During this process of indoctrination, the deaths of innocent Iraqis at the hands of the terrorists/insurgents were probably downplayed, ignored, or presented simply as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the struggle against the American "oppressor". They were probably encouraged to see the hypocrisy in America's self-appointed role as the world's liberator of oppressed people - whilst beating suspects inside Abu Ghraib and bombing cities from 30,000 feet. They were encouraged NOT to see the hypocrisy of killing innocent civilians to advance their own cause. They were encouraged NOT to see all human lives as sacred. They were encouraged NOT to speak out against killing people on "the other side". In the war of ideas taking palce in these men's minds, this twisted vision of justice won. Lets be clear - I'm NOT claiming moral equivalence between us and Saddam. But I am acknowledging that are hands are not entirely clean, and our motives are far from pure. Ackowledging this is not "giving comfort to the enemy". It is simple honesty. By recognising our own faults and working to resolve them, we can win the war of ideas. Through dialogue and honesty. Not with bombs. Through openness and self-criticism, not through lies and deception. Your main question is: Why did nobody speak out about what these young men were planning. Well, perhaps, in the war of ideas, the people who knew their plans saw themselves as being on the other side. They had seen the lies they were fed in order to justify the invasion of Iraq. They saw the cover-ups, the denials and the excuses we made after Abu Ghraib. And they made a choice not to speak out - maybe because they felt to do so would be "giving comfort to the enemy". That enemy is us. I do not wish to make the same mistake, and that is why I speak out.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#4)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:12 PM EST
    PPJ aka Jim Exactly how would moderate Muslims be able to control those who have been corrupted by fundamentalist ideology to the point of being willing to sacrifice themselves for their cause. In fact how could anybody stop such fanatics who apparently kept their motivations and intentions secret even from those closest to them, if you believe the stories of their friends and family members? Maybe you've noticed that the best equipped army in the world can't stop these people from striking on a daily basis in Iraq. Car bombing in Baghdad kills 27, mostly children Exactly what is your plan for stopping these people? By your logic (I use that word rather loosely) others in the surrounding Moslem communities must've been aware of the plans of these bombers correct? Perhaps you could produce something on which you base that assertion. Do you really believe that with this knowledge their friends and family members, some British citizens, just gave these young people a pat on the back and said go get em' son, kill the infidels? So tell me, if your neighbor becomes a suicide bomber, will you be willing to accept the responsibility and take the blame for their actions? Because obviously you must've known what they were planning. Don't bother to deny it because we have ways of making you talk. Are you familiar with the term guilt by association? The name Joseph McCarthy ring a bell? From your remarks and link it appears you believe that by creating a closed society that restricts freedom of speech and represses anyone who MIGHT be a threat, you can create a safe environment which can't be penetrated by undesirable elements. That sounds remarkably like Cold War thinking to me, communist Cold War thinking. Are you proposing we adopt communist tactics now? And if so, do you think such measures can protect you from suicide bombers? Perhaps you'd better think again, and reevaluate your assertions.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:12 PM EST
    I heard a lot of blame being directed towards radical islam, an evil "ism" long tolerated by the elites in England and backed here as it opposes Bush. (see London mayors embrace of one of its clerical adherents). how this helps the cause of the left I have no idea. Ian's attempt to disclaim making a moral equivalency argument also fails as the jihadists are quite happy to kill those whose ideas disagree with it, not just those of the enemy they apparently are excused to kill. In the Netherlands, it was Theo Van Gogh-he didn't seem very pleasant, certainly not a right wing Christian, probably liberal in his beliefs-he just exposed the truth about Islamists and deserved to die in the words of his assassin. No Iraq war necessary there. As to Aaron, is it really your belief that nothing should be done about incitements to kill coming from mosques and the streets? I guess so. As to the naive view of suicide bombers and their indoctrination, there have been hundreds of articles detailing Palestinians doing just that-patting their children on the back and sending them on their merry way to kill. You just can't recognize evil when you see it.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    "I did what I did purely out my beliefs," the 27-year-old Muslim told judges after entering court clutching a Quran. "I want you to know that I acted out of conviction and not that I took his life because he was Dutch or because I was Moroccan and felt insulted." He must just be one of those misunderstanders of Mohammadanism or maybe not! Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25: 1. Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." ........... Qur’an 008.017 YUSUFALI: It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things). The Prophet Mohammed was not a peace loving man, so the religion he invented couldn’t possibly be.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    "The Prophet Mohammed was not a peace loving man, so the religion he invented couldn’t possibly be." What absolute claptrap. By your logic, Jesus, the Prince of Peace, could not be responsible for the religion that brought us the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Pope's support of Hitler and George Bush's current holy war against dark skinned people who live on top of a lot of oil. You wanna play the "violent god" card, look closer to home. How about Moses the killer:
    Exodus 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
    Or the Israelites warlike view of their God:
    Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
    Or the punishment for blasphemy:
    Leviticus 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
    Stick to eating the burgers, BurgerBoy, and leave the debate to the grownups.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Dear Grownup: why not deal with the here and now. no matter how many burgers he eats, he got the facts right from the Netherlands. you don't want to face the fact that the other side doesn't care how multicultural, understanding or liberal you are-in fact, the other side will take every advantage of your lack of willingness to face the truth. the hordes of christian suicide bombers don't exist. the other side does and are quite happy to kill you.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Ed, And your solution is what, exactly? Kill 'em all? If you read my post above, you will understand that what I'm really advocating is a sense of calm and a little dialogue. Violence begets violence. Can you give me any real-world example where "the terrorists" have been defeated solely by violent and/or oppressive means? Look at Palestine. The Israelis have been suffering from suicide attacks for nearly 20 years. There's no sign that an "aggressive" policy has been in the least bit effective in stopping it. And let's face it, the state of Israel isn't exactly short of money and weapons to throw at the problem. And yet the bombers keep on coming. The Palestinians don't have many human rights left either. Has this prevented the attacks? Have the terrorists been defeated? Now look at Northern Ireland. Or South Africa. Both experienced lengthy "terrorist" campaigns. Neither was resolved by eliminating the terrorists. Why? Because you can't eliminate them all. For every terrorist you kill, you create at least one more. Why can you not see this? In your "black and white" world, every Muslim is out to get you. Personally I don't feel like this. I believe that 99% of Muslims simply want to live and let live. I would prefer to make it clear to this majority that I simply want to live and let live too, rather than supporting those who would bomb and invade their countries for my own financial gain. London was attacked by 4 suicidal young men. It was not attacked by the 1 billion Muslims with whom we share this planet. Peace is the path and peace is the destination.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    wow-there must be a neocon intent on satirizing the left who has infiltrated the site under Ian's name. Dialogue-explain how this would go? the dialogue would be rather one sided-do what we want, shut your mouth, or in the alternative, we will kill you. You don't have to hate 1 billion moslems to realize that it is a religion with serious problems. maybe the dialogue could start there rather than blaming its victims. by the way, I just read an article suggesting that recruitment may have occurred at a government funded youth center-is that the kind of dialogue you suggest?

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Ian How you ever read the Qur’an, Hadith or the traditions of Mohammad? If not how can you comment on that which you know nothing about? Is that what grownups do, or just the uneducated ones? Do you claim to know more about Mohammadanism then Mohammed Bouyeri the Muslim who murdered Theo Van Gogh? Are you saying that yes I am completely correct in my assessment of Mohammadanism, but hey look the Bible is equally is bad? You should really learn how to read and comprehend what you read, not one of those Old Testament passages you quoted tells a Jew to kill anyone he perceives as a non-believer, but hey, don’t let me get in the way of your lurid delusions. Next you will probably call me a racist and I will inform you that Muslim is not a race and you will say, oh, but I mean.... and I will say, so that’s why they call them “moonbats”

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#12)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Ian - I did not say that these terrorists were aliens. What I said was that were not normal, nor were they good. They were terrorists. They planned multiple acts of terror against innocent civilians and carried them out. You write:
    I condemn it utterly - as do all the moderate Muslim leaders who have spoken out in the UK over the past week.
    That is well and good. But what are these so-called moderate leaders doing to prevent this from happening again? Are they looking for the teachers of these terrorists? I mean they did not become terrorists overnight. They were trained. They were brainwashed. Who did this? So, where are the moderates? Condemnation after the fact is not enough. Their religion has been seized by radical terrorists, and they must take it back.
    They went to Pakistan - one of the USA's "allies"......It was in that country..."
    Are you trying to tell us that there are no radical Imams in England? Good grief, surely you jest. And what is that supposed to mean, or prove? England is also one of our allies. Sorry Ian, your statement is irrational. Ian, this is not a war of "ideas." This is a war as defined by OBL. Read what he says. Let us not repeat the mistakes made the French and English before WWII when Hitler stated explicitly what he was doing. The radical Moslems demand that they are NOT governed by secular laws, but they demand that we be governed by Islamic laws. It is up to the moderate Moslems to change that mind set. The only way we can is by killing the terrorists.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#14)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Ian – You quote the Old Testament, which was fulfilled by the birth of Christ. In addition, the Catholic Church, which had fallen into sinful practices, went through a Reformation that modified, condemned and changed many of the Church’s activities, and from that came the Protestant churches of today. So using quotations from the Old Testament about today’s beliefs of Protestants and Catholics is totally inaccurate. Speaking as an adult, you may serve me my burger with mustard and a salad.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#15)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Aaron writes:
    some British citizens, just gave these young people a pat on the back and said go get em' son, kill the infidels?
    You make a huge overstatement in an attempt to disparage me, but it doesn't work. No, I don't think that happened. But I do believe that some people knew that these men's activities had changed, and I think some people were able to recognize that their thoughts and beliefs were now centered on the activities and thoughts of terrorism and terrorists. At that point these "someone’s" should have went to the police. If they were wrong, no harm. If they are right, look at the lives saved and the injured spared. You write:
    “Are you familiar with the term guilt by association? The name Joseph McCarthy ring a bell?”
    An excellent question, although you won’t like the answer. Read some history. McCarthy was right. There were Soviet spies, and fellow travelers, in the State Department. That fact is often lost in the claptrap generated over his overstatements and hyperbole. So I say without fanfare. There are radical Moslems operating in the US and England as I write this, and as you read this, and as it lies in TL’s archives waiting for me to pull it out and show you at somehow unhappy time in the future. You write:
    “From your remarks and link it appears you believe that by creating a closed society.”
    Not at all. But if an open and liberal society such as England can have this happen, what do we do? Isn’t the problem a failure to assimilate the old culture into the new? We can praise “diversity” until our tongues fall out, but that works only when the diversity exists in traditions, not in the day to day activities and beliefs of the people who have chosen to remain largely outside the country’s culture they have chosen to join. Even then you would have no problem if the “niche” culture demanded of its member’s 100% tolerance of the culture they co-exist with. That is not happening. And that must happen. And it must be done by the Moslem Moderates.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    PPJ LOL, I prefer mine with mustard and a nice British beer! I guess these tolerant “liberals” draw the line at Christianity and my moniker. Paul in LA You should lookup the word “bigot”, both definitions describe Paul in LA and a lot of other “liberals” here to a tee.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    "You quote the Old Testament, which was fulfilled by the birth of Christ." My Jewish friends take great exception to that remark. My Muslim friends, who by the way celebrate JC as a great scholar, wonder why 2000 years of 'chrisitian' agression has been done in the name of the "Prince of Peace". Jews who want to kill, muslims who want to kill and christians who want to kill DO NOT represent the values or make up the majority of the faithful.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Sailor Neither the Jew nor the Christian have any scripture that justifies their mistreatment of others. Albeit, many have throughout history used God as an excuse to murder, but the Judeo-Christians have done so in spite of what both the Old and New Testament teaches. The Muslim and the Qur'an claiming to celebrate “Jesus” is nothing but lip service, that deceives only the unlearned, the Qur’an follows not even one of his teachings. Like “love your neighbor as yourself” or “if you only love those who love you, then what reward do you have? do not even the Gentiles do the same?” A few quotes to bolster my contention. The noble Qur’an 002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. 005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." Now that should upset your Jewish and Muslim friends, the Jews because its antisemitic and the Muslims because the truth got out.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Religion says "war!" Religion says "peace!" Religion says anything you want it to. Can't argue with that!

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#20)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    burgerboy is completely wrong. Anyone can (mis) quote holy scriptures of any religion to justify their hatred and violence. None of those scriptures' foundations are rooted in or advocate violence. madcowboy is just trying to spread hatred and violence against others who don't believe as he does. In the future, I would suggest this heretic consult with me on a thread dedicated to comparative religions and we will debate such things in a more appropriate forum.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Sailor Where did I advocate hating Muslims in any of my posts? Or advocating any kind of Muslim genocide? I am not like you, I have the ability to discriminate. Your anaemic moral equivalently arguments are nothing more than a lame attempt to divert from the subject at hand. Mohammadanism this so called “religion of peace” has death as a punishment for me being an apostate, hey, just like those Jews and Christians, right, sailor?

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Sailor I am sure Hamas or Islamic Jihad would love to hear from you, particularly you as an infidel and how you think they are misquoting their Qur’an, but be careful you may lose your head over it. Manual disturbs Ashcroft 09/29/2001 The spiritual and operational guide that helped airline hijackers carry out their Sept. 11 attacks has been found at three locations, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Friday. The guide - much of it written in the form of notes - quotes several passages from the Quran. One passage from the guide instructs the follower to pray when boarding the airplane and again upon taking a seat. "It is a raid for Allah<.b>," according to the FBI's translation of the guide. Mr. Ashcroft called the guide's religious references "a stark reminder of how these hijackers grossly perverted the Islamic faith to justify their terroristic acts." Mr Ashcroft like the rest of or leaders have been greatly misled. Director of London's Al-Maqreze Centre for Historical Studies Hani Sibai: There are No "Civilians" in Islamic Law; Host: "Excuse me, Is Sheik Osama bin Laden a religious scholar, who issues fatwas, or is he the head of Al-Qa'ida?" Al-Siba'i: "First of all, he is one of this [Islamic] nation. Allah... We have no clergy, or a pope, or anything like this. Anyone can carry out his religious duty, even if he is by himself." Host: "Mr. Hani, make no mistake. The same assembly ruled that Jihad in Iraq is allowed against soldiers. Even Sheik Osama [sic.] Al-Makdisi, Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi's mentor... Okay. Abu Hani, okay... He asked Al-Zarqawi not to kill civilians and to attack only the Americans... I mean, only soldiers..." Al-Siba'i: "The term 'civilians' does not exist in Islamic religious law. Dr. Karmi is sitting here, and I am sitting here, and I'm familiar with religious law. There is no such term as 'civilians' in the modern Western sense. People are either of Dar Al-Harb or not. Dar Al Harb: those with whom they are at war until Judgment Day. (Not just the Jews: all non-Muslims!)

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    hey, just like those Jews and Christians, right, sailor?
    Old Testament...an eye for an eye. That seems to be the principal of the jihadists along with the Likud and Republican Parties...except with them its 10000 eyes for an eye. Well at least none of the right-wingers that post here would ever pick up a rifle and head to Iraq...so we can all be thankful for that.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    The radical Moslems demand that they are NOT governed by secular laws, but they demand that we be governed by Islamic laws. It is up to the moderate Moslems to change that mind set. The only way we can is by killing the terrorists.
    You speak as if there were a finite number of terrorists in the world and that we are slowly eliminating them, one by one and that eventually we'll get rid of them all. This view is clearly false. Terrorists are not born, they are created. They are created by a sense of powerlessness and injustice and having nothing to lose. We have to understand this: the attacks on 9/11 radicalised a large portion of America and created a desire for an aggressive response. Likewise, our own actions in Iraq and elsewhere are radicalising a portion of the Muslim world and pushing moderates towards an extremist, polarised viewpoint. In other words, we are creating more terrorists. The fear of being killed is clearly no deterrent to these people - they are more than happy to kill themsleves, before we even get the chance. I'm not saying that we should simply sit back and accept attacks - I'm saying that we should be smarter in our response, and not allow ourselves to be provoked into an escalating cycle of violence where the only winners are the people who sell weapons. (Funny how they always make money, isn't it?) If we imagine a continuum of belief that stretches from moderate, peaceful Islam on one side and violent fundamentalism on the other, all we are doing each time one of our attacks kills an innocent Iraqi, each time we imprison someone without trial, each time we raid the wrong house, is pushing people along that continuum away from moderate Islam and towards extremism. Likewise, each time the terrorists attack, a portion of people in the West are pushed along their own political continuum, away from dialogue and towards increased violence. This is clearly a losing game. Of course, the moderate Muslims should speak out and try call for restraint. Likewise the moderates in our own society need to speak out and call for restraint from the hawks. That's what I am doing here. You spoke of Christ fulfilling the Old Testament, and from this I assume you are a Christian. Surely the clearest example of Jesus' fulfilment of the Old Testament is when he speaks of loving your enemy and turning the other cheek. Where does he speak of bombs? Of violence? Of killing? Of retaliation? If we are going to talk about the differences between Christianity and Islam, and about how one is a religion of peace and the other is not, then why aren't we making more of an effort to live up to the teachings of the Prince of Peace?

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    sorry, Ian. you first have to recognize and sort out the bad guys from the good guys. you seem incapable of that as you fixate on offering excuses for islamic extremists. the cycle of violence argument always seems to work in their favor a la Israel (they attack you, you do nothing because that creates a "cycle of violence"). are people pushed to extremes when victims strike back? it is often said but no evidence seems to be offered. where are the average Iraqis who have resorted to suicide bombing because of the toppling of Hussein? my guess is that you would look long and hard to find them.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#26)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Ian writes:
    the attacks on 9/11 radicalised a large portion of America and created a desire for an aggressive response. Likewise, our own actions in Iraq and elsewhere are radicalising a portion of the Muslim world and pushing moderates towards an extremist, polarised viewpoint. In other words, we are creating more terrorists.
    Ian, the thing is, the terrorist attacks did not start on 9/11, and they have not been isolated to the US and England. The attacks can be traced back to '79. Our responses for 22 years were essentially criminal justice in nature, which is to say focused on individual investigations, trials, etc. Now. What happened? The frequency and the severity of the attacks increased. Why? The terrorist felt more confident, and felt that we would not respond? Have attacks increased since 9/11? Yes. But this merely chronicles the war. This is so simple I hate to write it. War = Battles. Again. Read what OBL said in 1997. Look at what the radicals Moslems do. Understand that the moderates have been very timid. Maybe that will change in England. Maybe that will change in the US. Maybe that will around the world. I hope so. BTW – Your claim that 9/11 “radicalized” a large portion of America is a large overstatement. Very large. What it did was focus us on the problem, and present us with the option of continuing the failed criminal justice policies of the past, or deciding to fight the terrorists. We chose to fight. Finally, my religion doesn't tell me that I must let my enemies kill me and destroy my home and civilization. It says be tolerant, but not stupid.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    PPJ: So if the attacks have not slowed, and have in fact increased, I would call that a failure. In fact, the recruiting has never been better thank you very much. Failed policy, stupid war. Should have had 140,000 american troops along the afghan-paki border to flush out the mastermind that the administration seems to have forgotten about. By the way, in all of the terror acts committed since 71, how many of those folks were Iraqi? Read a little history Jim.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    do you live in the delusional world where the islamists just wake up one day and decide to bomb. facts tell a different story but that gets in the way of "bush bad", the intellectual highlight of this site. you will notice that violence spiked and flared up intensely when we became involved in WWII as well-I guess that means we should have stayed out(I realize history means nothing here but I'll throw it in anyway). Further, those troops on the Afghan/Pakistan border would have done a lot to prevent London train bombings(you'll have to tax that intellect to explain how though). [Ed's done for today...way over his four comment a day limit. He was previously warned that all comments over that limit would be deleted and they have been.]

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    This is the type of rationality being used around here. You have BugerBoy, Sailor and a Moslem all debating religion, the Moslem takes special offence to BurgerBoy’s statements despite the fact that all parties hold equally offensive views. In order to defend what the Moslem views as an outright attack on his God and his Prophet, he lashes out and beheads Sailor. Then shortly after Paul in LA, Ian, Ernesto, Che’s Lounge and Aaron show up to blame BurgerBoy for offending the Moslem and making him behead Sailor.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Question to Burgerboy: Did Sailor offend the Muslim by shocking and aweing his country to the tune of tens of thousands of dead people? If so, I would say let's break the cycle of violence. BTW...I haven't defended anyone beheading anyone in the past, so get your facts straight and limit the hyperbole, tyvm. You seem to be trying to rationalize your own need for vengeance against a supposed enemy. You and your ilk are the mirror image of the jihadists (except that none of you are willing to die for your cause apparently).

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    9/11/01 comes before 10/24/01 and 3/20/03
    And the relevance of this is what? I asked you who has killed more people in the name of their God and Country. Awaiting an answer to the current body count.
    Some tyrants of our recent past. Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, all good atheists that make Ernesto proud.
    They all believed in the god of nationalism and the cult of personality and as such are not much different than a Bush or a Sharon. The zionists and neocons have their own special religion of genocide, too. The world can do well without all of their false, murderous idols.
    This Imam states that Moslems can kill...
    And our "imam" states that we kill to bring "freedom and democracy" to places where the dictators are no longer useful to us.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    I think we need to take a vote, who is more delusional RA or Ed. I vote for RA

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Ed, It suits your purposes to portray what is happening today as equivalent to WWII. I don't buy it. At least not the way you wanna spin it. Sorry. Got anything else? No? Didn't think so. PS: Bush = Roosevelt? Ha ha ha hah hahahahahahahahahaha ROFLMAO

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    a need for vengeance when we responded to Pearl Harbor or fighting an evil enemy.
    Iraq had as much to do with Pearl Harbor as they did with 9/11...so why are wasting so many resources there? And you can't use your "it's better to fight them there than here" canard anymore.
    mirror image of the jihadists? minus the oppression, beheadings, stoning of gays, suicide bombing(I am sure I missed some of the horrible things).
    Look, if that's what we were really fighting then we wouldn't have funded Bin Laden and called him a freedom fighter in the first place. So don't even bother with that canard. You have no moral high ground here whatsoever, my friend...and references to WWII are of course invalid to the War on Terror, since terror is not a government but a tactic. Btw...wasn't Bush's daddy and a lot of other U.S. industrialists doing business with Hitler until they were forced not to anymore? Go ahead and spin that one please.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Ernesto No Sailor did not, he represents all noncombatants of the WTC, London, foreign contractors in Iraq, I represent the apostate of Islam and the Moslems represent themselves. I use Sailor because he is not hostile toward Islam yet just like the other noncombatants he suffers the brunt of their wrath. I am hostile toward Islam, albeit it is only verbal, which would never require a physical response. I make no distinction between what others would call "radical" Islam and "peaceful" Islam, for I cannot clearly define the ideological line that divides the two. From most reports the Mosques in America are teaching nothing but hate against America and on our own soil! I understand that all Moslems go to Mosque and how many of those “moderate” Moslems have been giving to that “radical” Mosque which then sends the money home to support jihad of the sword against America? So I don’t buy the bs about “peaceful” Islam, Mohammed was not “peaceful” and Mohammed was the “best” of men that all future Moslem men are to emulate, as far as Islam is concerned. If you can prove the Prophet Mohammed was a "peaceful" man and the doctrine of jihad that Islam understands and practices, is really just misunderstood by most of the Islamic scholars, I could be persuaded to reconsider my appraisal.
    Al-Siba'i: People are either of Dar Al-Harb or not.


    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Burgerboy...show me how Bush (a "born again" Christian) and Sharon (a Jew)are any less violent in their words or actions than Bin Laden. What's the body count tally running for those three? Who is "winning"? If I had my choice all religions used by people who kill others would be a thing of the past...

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Earth to Ernesto 9/11/01 comes before 10/24/01 and 3/20/03.
    If I had my choice all religions used by people who kill others would be a thing of the past... ~ Ernesto
    I like the American Constitution with its inherent right to religious freedom, and I will fight those like you who want to rewrite it. Some tyrants of our recent past. Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, all good atheists that make Ernesto proud.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    Leeds Grand Mosque Friday Khutbah (26/03/2004) delivered by Shaykh Muhammad Taher
    If the forces of evil stop and intervene between the people and them entering this deen as Allah, exalted is He, loves for them, it is legislated for those who call, when they face these oppressive forces, to fight Jihad in the path of Allah, and it is legislated for them to sacrifice themselves for the sake of this deen and for the sake of making the da'wah of Islam reach every heart. The preservation of the deen comes before the preservation of life because if the deen goes and imaan is absent, obedience is abandoned and tawhid of the All-Merciful is not found, and the worshippers of the Shaytan appear, great corruption spreads in the earth, which Allah made a resting place for His servants who He created to worship Him alone and it is upon them to care for it, cultivate it, and bring forth its bounties. You learnt, O beloved brothers and sisters, how Islam forbids the killing of the self, and destroying it and damaging it without right, for whoever kills for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth it is as if he has killed all of mankind, and whoever gives a self life it is as if he has given life to all of mankind. And you learnt how Islam forbids transgression and prohibits the killing of the weak, from the women and children, and non-combatants, in the battlefields.
    This Imam states that Moslems can kill to prevent what they perceive as corruption in the earth which you can now justifiably drive any ideological bomb laden truck through. And there is always the oh so special 72 virgins awaiting these martyrs from the religion of “peace”. I mean “pieces”

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    Counting bodies while completely ignoring the underlying causes is just really bad science made for pigeonhole agendas. These leaders all have resources of varying degrees, so comparing OBL who lives in a hole in the ground with Bush who lives in the White House is like comparing apples to oranges and says more about your obstinateness level than your intelligence level. If OBL had the resources of Bush, at least 300,000 + Americans would be gone, I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out. They all believed in the “god of nationalism”, man you don’t have a clue what you are talking about, do you? Apparently I did get my fact straights, you are fumbling around making lame excuses for our sworn enemy the Islamic jihadist.

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    Counting bodies while completely ignoring the underlying causes is just really bad science made for pigeonhole agendas.
    True...so what exactly are the underlying causes for so many dead Iraqis and Palestinians? Because they hate our freedom...or because they got in the way of zionist and imperialist goals?
    If OBL had the resources of Bush, at least 300,000 + Americans would be gone, I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out.
    Maybe not, since that price might be a little too steep to pay for our leader's to violently put forth their agenda against that part of the world (note how we haven't invaded North Korea). But the fact that we have superior means of killing certainly does not mean our moral clarity is any greater than those we kill, does it? Which explains why you and our leaders "don't do body counts".
    Apparently I did get my fact straights, you are fumbling around making lame excuses for our sworn enemy the Islamic jihadist.
    Why don't you fumble around and tell me exactly how he became our sworn enemy? Twenty years ago he was our best buddy in the region, remember? We gave him millions of dollars and Stinger missiles. Scratch your head and think hard as to how things evolved since then. Then tell me how we became a source of light in the darkness of the world, ok?

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:18 PM EST
    True...so what exactly are the underlying causes for so many dead Iraqis and Palestinians?
    What about Israelis, or do they not count. Why are you so outraged when a Moslem civilian dies, but not an Israeli civilian? And you completely ignore the fact that the “Palestinians” only target Israeli civilians, while Israel targets only “Palestinian” terrorist, civilians being collateral damage.
    But the fact that we have superior means of killing certainly does not mean our moral clarity is any greater than those we kill, does it?
    We are morally right because we target only terrorist, while the terrorist target only civilians, which makes them morally aberrant.
    Why don't you fumble around and tell me exactly how he became our sworn enemy?
    The following text is a fatwa, or declaration of war, by Osama bin Laden first published in Al Quds Al Arabi, a London-based newspaper, in August, 1996. The fatwa is entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places." My Muslim Brothers of The World: Your brothers in Palestine and in the land of the two Holy Places are calling upon your help and asking you to take part in fighting against the enemy --your enemy and their enemy-- the Americans and the Israelis. they are asking you to do whatever you can, with one own means and ability, to expel the enemy, humiliated and defeated, out of the sanctities of Islam. Exalted be to Allah said in His book: { and if they ask your support, because they are oppressed in their faith, then support them!} (Anfaal; 8:72)

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#42)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:18 PM EST
    another delusional wingnut

    Re: London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terror (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    Another anti-American, we don’t need no stinking facts illiberal.

    London: More Evidence It Was Home Grown Terrorists | 42 comments (42 topical)