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Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jul 04, 2005 at 10:53:11 AM EST
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    Open Thread | 56 comments (56 topical)
    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    War defeated the Soviet Union and their dream of world domination. War defeated the Nazis, the Fascists and Imperial Japan and their dream of world domination. War defeated the Kaiser. War defeated the Rebels and prevented them from keeping slavery in the South. War defeated the British and made us a free country. As we were 229 years ago we are again engaged in war. We are now, as then, engaged with a foe who wants us to merely do what we were told to do. That is all. Worship when they say worship. Worship who they say worship. Worship how they say worship. Our female citizens will merely have to cover their head and learn not to comment. Our female children will merely have to learn how to serve men, and they won't have to worry about learning how to read. They won't be allowed to. In 1776 our founders pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor. Yet we cannot even come together to fight this war. Sad. Very sad.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Cheap. Very cheap.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    so Iraq was planning to invade the US and convert us all to Islam? wow now it all makes sense.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    War defeated the Soviet Union and their dream of world domination. Which war was that? My recollection was that there was a revolt within the Politburo (Yeltsin, remember him), and Gorbachev lacked the will, or the loyalties of others, to crush it. The United States never--ever--engaged the Soviet Union in war. But we successfully contained them, and beat them in the economic marketplace. All the lessons of the so-called "Cold War" go against the hawks, not for them. If the hawks had had their way, we would have had WW3 in October 1962.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron. - Dwight Eisenhower 1953 speech

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    War is the health of the State. It automatically sets in motion throughout society these irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate cooperation with the government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense. Randolph Bourne

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country Hermann Goering

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Only a right wing rump swab equate the actions of 20 hijackers to the revolutionary war. Only by knowingly lying about the risks posed by the handful of crazies can they justify this war. But theyt eventually may be right as we continue to alienate all Muslims and even some of our allies. When the bully finally gets what coming to him. his "friends" will just stand by and watch with a great sense of relief.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    "Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." -- Frank Zappa

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Rewriting history again, PPJ?
    We are now, as then, engaged with a foe who wants us to merely do what we were told to do.
    Let me get this straight. You are talking about Iraq? IRAQ? You are actually equating Iraq with the Revolutionary War?

    That takes the prize. We have a winner.

    Sad. Very sad. Oh, indeed it is.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    PPJ, Well said, actually. Ignore the commentators of the Angry Left (tm) who pretend not to know which war you are really talking about. The real reason for their anger is their own powerlessness; they'll get used to it. Happy 4th, man. And many, many more.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    CA - I always find it amusing that the Left finds its heros in Hollywood. Most modern "stars" are poorly educated and without experience. A deadly combination if seek advise from them. GregZ - Iraq is one battle in the WOT. There will be more. kth - Your lack of knowing, or understanding, history is amazing. Do you know nothing of the strategy of containment? To never engage, but always surround and pressure? Have you ever heard of Korea? Have you ever heard of the war in Greece? The Prague spring? No wonder you suck up AIM's nonsense about gulags, you have no knowledge of what one is actually like. Do you think Vietnam happened in a vacuum? Do you remember White Alice? How many died flying the Dew Line? Always watching, always waiting. You toss off 1962 with a casual political shot. Let me ask you. Were you even alive? Do you have any idea how it felt to set in a plane at the end of the runway knowing that if you take off your family is dead, you are soon to be dead and civilization as you knew it has ceased to exist? Thousands died in the Cold War, yet you toss them off as mere actors. The war`was won when the Soviets imploded. Not that you will answer, but I ask you. How in the hell did it get to that point? SD - One day you are agreeing with OBL, the next day you are quoting Goering. Nice selections.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    cheetah - I find it difficult to believe that you actually think that the war in Iraq is about "just Iraq." Surely you are smarter than than that. Then again, maybe you aren't. ras - Happy 4th, and many more to you!

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Jim, Guerrila war freed the Vietnamese from foreign colonial control. War didn't free black South Africans. Or do much for native Americans except take them to the edge of purposeful extermination. And black Americans worked in de facto slavery for decades and decades after they were "free" -- because they really weren't free at all. We know now the Soviet "threat" was hyped during the cold war, which is why the country's communist party (despite the American rights' longtime predictions it would never happen without a war to end all wars) gave up "power" and radically "transformed" the nation -- while at the same time retaining much of the strict social control, which is fine with us as long as they buy our crap, don't make trouble like they "used to", and now fight the war on terror essentially our way. As for world domination, not to laugh, but the USSR couldn't occupy its own neighborhood without bankrupting themselves and, unless they are uniquely suicidal as a people, had no designs on Dr. Evil type world domination. Keep us in check and chasing our tail as much as they could? you bet. But world domination? Maybe this was our PERCEIVED fear, based on a lot of propaganda from that military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about, but to still cling to that injected fear as real, with the hindsight of history clearing up the issue, well, it's just a tad depressing. Not, of course, to excuse the stifling state control of the old Kremlin, but simply to clear the air of the kind of hyperbole no free country should have to fall back on to make itself feel good. We fought some good fights, we fought some bad ones, we got terribly lucky sometimes too. As for our original revolution, most working class colonists (which were most colonists period) sat out the American revolution because they didn't see it as a fight in their interest -- see Monroe's complaint about their unwillingness to take up arms and "be free" as he defined it (may have been Madison, I'm remembering quotes on the fly). Simply because we have come to perceive the revolution as something popular and emancipating doesn't mean it was anywhere near that, or that words on a page nullify the long slow slog of real American freedom as we know it today -- the freedom that was won by unarmed civilians risking their lives. As for Islam...they want to convert us all? You are certifiably loony with that extremist, utterly anti-rational kind of notion. I doubt the Sunni insurgency in Iraq wants to convert any of us. There are plenty of nutjob Christians here who think it's their job to convert people, or who think it's fine to kill certain "guilty" people -- whose guilt THEY get to decide.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Add Jim, When I wrote "We fought some good fights, we fought some bad ones, we got terribly lucky sometimes too", I should've added, and this is important, "but we were anything but morally or ethically consistent in choosing our fights, choosing who we'd try to "save", or who we'd let die."

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Surely you are smarter than that. Then again maybe you are not.

    ppj,

    These words coming from someone who can't even spell the words heroes or advice? What a gem you are. You do have a point of sorts though, as far as the revolutionary war comparing to Iraq; in both wars you have the people fighting for the independence of their nation. Oddly enough, both against empires under the rule of men named George.

    p.s.,

    Are you going to threaten to shoot me again?

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    PPJ,
    Worship when they say worship. Worship who they say worship. Worship how they say worship.
    So what you are saying, I surmise, is that these people want to convert us all. Well, they have a great start, do they not? They have managed to convert 4 of our troops (out of only 135,000). And they've done that in a mere 2 yrs. and 4 mos. Yeah, they have that conversion thing down! Only 134,996 to go, and at the rate they're working it, it'll only take them another 66,498 yr. to finish the job.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Belief in a god comes from unanswerable questions. Where did we, and everything else in the universe, come from? When did time start? We answer these with something we can’t explain.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    fat albert - The ability to spell has nothing to with intelligence. I do hope you are smart enough to understand what I wrote. But, based on your comments abuot the Revolutionary War and comparing the terrorists to us, I would have to say you are not. BTW - I have an opening for secretary, do you do coffeee? I also require my cleaning to be delivered/picked up every Thursday. Can you handle that? BTW - When you complain about my adventures in spelling and typing you are poaching on DA's territory. Hope you two don't get in a cat fight. Shoot you? I have never even considered that. I mean, good heavens, no, although you did bring the subject of getting your guns, up. Perhaps I would sic the dogs on you if you came on the grounds of my palatial retirement compound, catfish pond and BBQ Stand, but never shoot you. Besides, it wouldn't be sporting. Especially on the 4th. ;-) cheetah - Perhaps you should read what OBL said. Or you can read this for some perspective. dadler writes:
    We know now the Soviet "threat" was hyped during the cold war,
    No, we knew at the end that their power was overstated. There is no evidence of that being true in the late 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and early 80's. In fact, the Russians had a huge numbers advantage for years, and we didn't have the technology to counterbalance. That started to change when Reagan managed to get Germany to install short range tactical weapons. That left only MAD, which Star Wars, which didn't exist, replaced in our favor. At that point the Soviets couldn't keep up and imploded. But, as I noted, it took a lot of work, and a lot of sacrifice, to get there. BTW - Consider your ignorant comment about Vietnam ignored.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    So ras thinks Dwight Eisenhower is part of the Angry Left. In the words of Bugs Bunny..."what a moroon". Well nevermind the brave and intrepid typists of the 101st Wingnut Keyboard Brigade. Let's ask someone who has been there what they think about war: WAR IS A RACKET
    "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil intersts in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested."
    "War is a racket. ...It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
    "The general public shoulders the bill. This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations."
    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    "Yet we cannot even come together to fight this war. Sad. Very sad." Screw you, Jim. You know full well that half of "us" were called traitors before the war even began. You want to blame someone, blame the people who control all three branches of the government, the military, and the corporate media.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    so Iraq was planning to invade the US and convert us all to Islam? wow now it all makes sense.
    Isn't it hysterical that rightwingers think like this, even though there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever to support these beliefs. Hey PPJ, when I start seeing legions of armed Jihadists bypassing our huge, well organized national guard system and flooding down my tiny little small town street, intent on wrapping my ass in a burka, then we'll talk. Until then, don't stop taking your anti-psyche meds. I fear your paranoia is getting out of control.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    PPJ - citing historical events and actually understanding cause and effect are very different things. You've always failed the second miserably. And as is your m.o. you can't deal with the quotes themselves so you toss off one of your all too frequent snarks. As to we all coming together to support this war you must remember that there are still people in this country who have morals, as well as the ability to read, comprehend and think. They will never be on board, in spite of all the self-rightous crap being spewed from the right.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    SD - Hey, if pointing out your comments is snarky, so be it. Fenria - Don't worry, that'll never happen because someone else will have already fought and won that battle. Some, of course, will have died doing it, but don't let that bother you. In the meantime, what is it about the fact that Iraq is merely one battle in a long war that you don't understand? scar - Well, well. And I didn't even know you liked me. Blame? I have blamed no one. Just stated facts. Ernesto - What, no declaration that our neocons are just the same as the terrorists?

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    ppj wrote
    The ability to spell has nothing to with intelligence

    In a response regarding your spelling you can't even put in all your words. I don't think more need be said, but I will anyway. This is just a friendly notice to you ppj, every word I write is loaded with subliminal messages telling you, ppj, to convert to Islam and campaign for Jesse Jackson Jr. in '08.

    Fenria,

    It isn't that he doesn't want to take his meds, those darned liberal orderlies keep stealing them from him and using them for their own recreation.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    My favorite war quotes... (DEDICATED TO PPJ) The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions. ~Colonel James A. Donovan, U.S. Marine Corps The cry has been that when war is declared, all opposition should be hushed. A sentiment more unworthy of a free country could hardly be propagated. ~William Ellery Channing The voice of protest...is never more needed than when the clamor of fife and drum...is bidding all men...obey in silence the tyrannous word of command. ~Charles Eliot Norton Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly. ~Senator Robert M. La Follette Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent. ~Issac Asimov After every ''victory'' you have more enemies. ~Jeanette Winterson We believed ourselves indestructable... watching only the madmen outside our frontiers, and we remained defenseless against our own madmen. ~Jacobo Timerman We Americans have no commission from God to police the world. ~Benjamin Harrison Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. ~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn War creates peace like hate creates love. ~David L. Wilson War's a game, which, were their subjects wise, Kings would not play at. ~William Cowper Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood. ~Mahatma Gandhi Let not your zeal to share your principles entice you beyond your borders. ~Marquis de Sade Look at you in war...There has never been a just one, never an honorable one, on the part of the instigator of the war. ~Mark Twain It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them. ~Alfred Adler Man has no right to kill his brother. It is no excuse that he does so in uniform: he only adds the infamy of servitude to the crime of murder. ~Percy Bysshe Shelley Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire and of course my all time favorite: Our enemies...never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. ~George W. Bush

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    ppj is making less sense today than usual.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Don't worry, that'll never happen because someone else will have already fought and won that battle. Some, of course, will have died doing it, but don't let that bother you. In the meantime, what is it about the fact that Iraq is merely one battle in a long war that you don't understand?
    Pardon me while I smack my plam against my forehead repeatedly with eyes squinted out of sheer frustration.... You DO know that this is a war that NEVER needed to be fought in the first place and that Bin Laden is no where near Iraq and that all this war has succeeded in doing is militarizing people who, under other circumstances, would have remained seriously opinionated but non-violent and that this is all part of the PNAC agen....... F it. I'm going to go outside and shoot off my fireworks. You're hopeless PPJ. Just keep sipping that Kool Aide.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    fatalbert writes
    This is just a friendly notice to you ppj, every word I write is loaded with subliminal messages telling you, ppj, to convert to Islam and campaign for Jesse Jackson Jr. in '08.
    Hey, makes as much sense as your usual comments. Psychobabble becomes you. DA - You gonna let these guys muscle in on your territory? Figures. Fenria writes:
    You DO know that this is a war that NEVER needed to be fought in the first place and that Bin Laden is no where near Iraq
    And you do understand, don't you... No. You don't. And if you don't understand Bush's strategy by now, you never will. You know boys and girls, I may leave a word out everynow and then. I may mess up my typing everynow and then. I may even spell a word in an odd way everynow and then. But I can remember all the way back to 1979, WTCI and onward. I can remember the USS Cole. And I can remember what Clarke said in his 8/02 interview about resources:
    CLARKE: (Bush) In the first week in February (01), decided on principle, in the spring to add to the existing Clinton strategy, and to increase CIA resources, for example for covert action, five-fold, to go after al Qaeda. And then changed the strategy from one of rollback with al Qaeda over the course of five years, which it had been, to a new strategy that called for the rapid elimination of al Qaeda."
    Link I can also remember Bush's '03 SOTU speech in which he clearly spelled out his pre-emptive strategy. You may disagree with it. You may hate it. But don't act like you never heard of it.... Wait, I'll take that back. You probably didn't. Just too busy complaining, eh? So boys and girls, consider this. I can slow down, use a spell checker, write in MS before I copy, etc., etc. That will fix my problems. But you will be just as uninformed then as you are at this very minute. There is no software package for what ails you.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Ernesto writes:
    and of course my all time favorite: Our enemies...never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. ~George W. Bush
    You know, the vast majority of Americans understood exactly what this fractured syntax meant. They understood exactly what Bush was saying. I suspect that you also understood. But if you did not, then your difficulties with our culture is to be expected. Remember Ernesto, communication is not just words on paper. And my favorite:
    After every ''victory'' you have more enemies. ~Jeanette Winterson
    So, based on this we should have lost WWII. What a dumb concept. Let me correct it.
    After every ''victory'' you have more dead enemies. ~ PPJakaJim
    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Posted by PPJ---- Link = [deleted, must be in html format, instructions in box] HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...omfg I'm just crying I'm laughing so hard. Dude, you know I can't take this seriously. Why do you even bother quoting faux news? Man, you are completely caught up in the echo chamber. I can imagine you a little; you were probably one of those kids who always had to run with a crew, always had to be part of the popular crowd, even if the popular crowd was just a bunch of bullies. Sorry, way off topic I know, but it's the fourth, I've had a few beers, and this is an open thread so deal with it. ^^

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Remember Ernesto, communication is not just words on paper.
    Way to stand up for the dwindling minority that still believes in sending someone else's kids to die for a nasty bit of profiteering wrapped in propaganda that is the Neocon agenda. Yes, most of us know exactly what Bush meant by that quote...just take it literally. That's all you have to do! After every ''victory'' you have more enemies. ~Jeanette Winterson
    So, based on this we should have lost WWII. What a dumb concept.
    We didn't start WWII. We fought it against people that had great ideas about imposing their culture on the rest of the world. Sound familiar?
    After every ''victory'' you have more dead enemies. ~ PPJakaJim
    And... As him dead more John Brown born ~Eek a Mouse

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Jim's way guarantees people will want to kill us for generations to come. And deep down that's what our leaders want, perpetual war. Congrats Jim, you swallowed that steaming pile whole.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Dark Avenger says
    I'll be quite amused...if in the future he'll be able to understand what folks here write, instead of what he thinks they wrote. Right, cheetah?
    To which cheetah most heartily responds,

    Right, Dark Avenger, how right you are!

    PPJ's inability to understand what people are actually saying can be summed up in his response to Ernesto's GWB quote with this pearl of wisdom:

    You know, the vast majority of Americans understood exactly what this fractured syntax meant. They understood exactly what Bush was saying.
    The problem for PPJ is that, yes, we did understand exactly what he was saying. The "fractured syntax" excuse long ago became old and tired to me. You can't blame this one on "fractured syntax":
    There are some who, uh--feel like--that, you know, the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is bring 'em on.
    There is no excuse for that!

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Fenria writes:
    Why do you even bother quoting faux news?
    Perhaps because it makes a point I want. And in this case it is a transcript of an interview, so there can be no denying what Clarke said. BTW - Nice try at linking. I thought you, along with Fat albert and DA, were the world's greatest at such things. Oh well, walking the walk and talking the talk and that sort of stuff. Ernesto - Actually there are theories that FDR pushed Japan into attacking us with his aid to China, England and other actions. If so, it cost us about 2403 dead at Pearl Harbor and a huge portion of the Pacific Fleet to let them "strike first." I don't believe that theory, but if we wait in today's world, the number of dead would be much, much, much higher. I wonder what the relatives and friends of the dead would say if they knew that we had waited for an overt attack that was large enough to justify war to people like you, cheetah, Fat albert, Fenria, DA, etc. And BTW. Given that the terrorist attacks increased in size and frequency, at what point would you decide to fight? And what strategy would you use to combat loosely organized terrorist organizations with members from many countries? BTW - I have asked you that question before. cheetah - I wrote:
    I suspect that you also understood.
    Glad to see that you confirm:
    The problem for PPJ is that, yes, we did understand..
    So tell us, why are you upset that Bush is pledging to do what he can to protect the country? Tell us, do you have a problem with that? And if so, why? Would you prefer a President who just ignores the problems until they kill a few thousand Americans? You boys and girls are just so transparent. It is funny, but it is also sad.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    cheetah writes in the "G-8 turns...." thread:
    I am always amazed at the ignorance that surrounds this topic. The argument that we must use environmentally destructive agents, such as DDT, is nothing more than "Bush-science" propaganda. Try reading something other than the "news-ribbon" on Fox (we report-we decide) News.
    Can you tell us, and can you link to references: 1. A susbtitute for DDT that is: a. as effective. b. as inexpensive. 2. Can you show us how the use of the substitute has not: a. been less than DDT. b. and how this has not allowed more mosquitos, thus more malaria and death. BTW - This problem predates Bush by years and years.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    The half-life of DDT in the environment is too long Jim.
    In a recent study, the World Health Organisation estimated that malathion, the cheapest alternative to DDT, costs more than twice as much as DDT and must be sprayed twice as often. Deltamethrin, an alternative recommended by environmental groups, is more than three times as expensive as DDT. Propoxur, which is often highly effective, costs 23 times as much as DDT.
    Maybe we should pay the extra for the malathion so that our children don't have to live in a world without birds of prey? Or republican asshats like you will insist that we have to save every penny in order to ruin the world as fast as we can: see ANWAR, solar power, green vehicles, Kyoto treaty, etc.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    PPJ asks
    Would you prefer a President who just ignores the problems until they kill a few thousand Americans?
    Do you mean the way this president ignored the Aug.6th PDB?

    NO!

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    DA - True, but I don't hold myself up as the expert in such matters. Nope, I just try to live and let live. And if I can find nothing but various spelling errors, etc., to attack a comment with, I just leave it alone. As for sales and political predictations.... if you can do it, it aint bragging. As for your strategy comments, I see nothing but criticisms and one liners. Do you have a strategy? I know Ernesto doesn't. BTW - Neat post in Deltoid re people who complain about spelling. You should read it. V2Marty! You are just so sexy in writing:
    Or republican asshats like you
    Dearest Marty. You may kiss the first half of your descriptive word... Now that we have attempted to insult each other, I note you don't address anything. Ponder this, oh insult breath. In this imperfect world resources are limited. Shall we send food, or shall we send a substitute for DDT? One way they starve to death, the other way malaria kills them. It might be a more reasonable strategy to use DDT for a limited time until their economies recover and they can afford the more eco-friendly chemicals. But no, that has too much common sense in it. And God forbid we give them new genetically engineered rice and corn seeds. They might actually be able to have more to eat, and it might actually be richer in needed vitamins...

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    SIMA, Systemwide Initiative on Malaria and Agriculture, is one research group working on the malaria problem by tackling it at it's source, which they link to irrigation methods. Part of the current rise in malaria has been the result of the mosquitoes' gaining immunity to DDT and other chemicals, as usually happens.

    Using chemicals that destroy the delicate ecosystem are the cheap, short term remedy, and can never be cost effective in the long term, due to the serious problems they themselves cause.

    PPJ, do your own research, pal. It's amazingly educational, and we can see that you could benefit from that!

    Dark Avenger, thanks for the great link.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    PPJ, yes, I called you an asshat because it is a rather polite way for me to express my scorn for you without being to profane for this board. As far as not addressing anything, I have pointed out three alternatives to DDT that I found in about 3 minutes of research that are not persistant environmental toxins and still kill mosquitos. Yes, they are more expensive... hence my comments about you wanting to sell the earth for a few pennies. Answer that, and you are braver than you have shown yourself to be in the past.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    sorry, that should be "too" profane

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    V2Marty, as you said, "As far as not addressing anything", he still ignores my comment to his question on whether I would prefer a Pres. who just ignores problems until they kill a few thou. Americans, to which I asked if he meant as in ignoring the Aug.6 PDB. Or my comment on the ridiculous assertion he makes about Muslims converting the whole world to Islam.

    And as Dark Avenger said,

    She's upset with the "bring it on" quote, but since you can't admit Bush ever made a mistake, you can't talk about that, can you?
    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Keep it up, spelling errors say so much about your ability to reason and carefully examine what you post here. They insure that no one takes you seriously, which is a good thing. ...The Dark Avenger This is too funny for words. DA, it's "ensure," not "insure."

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    sarcastic u o, "Insure: To make sure, certain, or secure." The American Heritage Dictionary.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    More than 40 years since Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" and ppj still wants to cover us with DDT. Christ, this guy IS living in an intellectual stone age.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    cheetah - find a verifiable on-line dictionary that has that as its primary definition and I'll retract.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    desertswine,

    Oh, but don't forget that the bastion of wisdom, Human Events Online, has dealt Silent Spring the death blow. It merited honorable mention in their little contest of most harmful books. Of the 19th and 20th centuries, no less!

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Isn't Ensure one of those nutrition drinks?

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    DA - You ought to quit while you're behind. What's funny is that while you were slamming someone for spelling you either misspelled or were ungrammatical yourself and now you can't even admit it. 2nd definition indeed. Next you'll be telling us that the gay marriage debate is really about folks "characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement" and not homosexuals.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    sarcastic,

    I happen to be related to a very nice young man, who happens to be gay. I would characterize him as "cheerful", and he shows a propensity for "lighthearted excitement", as you call it.

    Insure is commonly given as a synonym for ensure. Unless, of course, you're talking about the nutrition drink.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    cheetah, actually that was the way dictionary.com "put it" in their 2nd definition of the word "gay:" link DA, now you're hiding behind a 5th definition from the OED?! Jeez, even AskOxford.com has it higher (4th)! I guess to you it all depends on what the definition of the word "is" is. omg, my sides are hurting. You didn't know, admit it. SAT's?! They're still important to you?! How old are you anyway? Too funny. fwiw, 6400 English, 6200 math (if they did percentiles, I don't remember them from back in '79) & 96 percentile GMATs. Moreover, DA, I assume that you being the fair and equal-minded kind of progressive that you tell yourself you are, question the "ability to reason" (your words), of all those who misspell on TL, right? For example, in Jeralyn's own words just minutes ago on her new sex offender thread: "and being investigated for the posible death of her brother Dylan." DA, if you don't question JM's ability to reason due to her misspelling and/or not previewing or proofing her work you are a hypocrite. You do know the definition of that word, don't you?

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    sarcastic, See, this is what happens when you jump in the middle of something without understanding what is going on. NO ONE cares about misspelled words. You miss the whole point, as usual. This is about...oh, never mind. It requires an ability to use abstract thinking. You wouldn't get it.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one,(aka ppj aka Jim),

    Didn't someone tell you to stay on your anti-psych meds yesterday? You really should have listened to them because you seem to have developed a split personality.

    You say:

    this is too funny for words.
    And I say: anyone with a grasp of the english language knows that insure and ensure are synonyms, much like ppj and sarcastic unnamed one are synonymous.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    I wonder what the relatives and friends of the dead would say if they knew that we had waited for an overt attack that was large enough to justify war to people like you, cheetah, Fat albert, Fenria, DA, etc.
    Well why don't you read what some of the relatives of the 9/11 victims have to say.
    And BTW. Given that the terrorist attacks increased in size and frequency, at what point would you decide to fight?
    Fight who? Why didn't we bomb Elohim City after the Murrah building was blown up? Think about it, you don't win this type of battle with a conventional army. Show me one place where it has been done. Israel? Northern Ireland? BTW...What does this have to do with attacking Iraq?
    And what strategy would you use to combat loosely organized terrorist organizations with members from many countries?
    Infiltrate them and cut off their funding is probably the most effective agressive way. The best way is passive, though: Get the hell outta the Mid-East and develop alternatives to oil. Oh, and make Israel stop building settlements and live up to UN resolutions.

    Re: Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    BTW - Nice try at linking. I thought you, along with Fat albert and DA, were the world's greatest at such things. Oh well, walking the walk and talking the talk and that sort of stuff.
    I wrote the link out on purpose so that everyone could see it was a link to faux news, and wouldn't have to go mouse over the link to see it. That's why I purposly bolded the "fox news" part of it. Duh.

    Open Thread | 56 comments (56 topical)