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Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize

By TChris, Section Other Politics
Posted on Sat Jun 25, 2005 at 02:29:43 PM EST
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by TChris

Dick Durbin apologized (unnecessarily) for selecting words that were subject to deliberate misinterpretation by the extreme right. No apology has followed Karl Rove's sleazy attack on liberals. Instead, the hard core right (including the White House) has rallied around Rove, insisting that his slanderous lies are connected to reality.

"That's not slander, that's the truth," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, Texas Republican, told the College Republican National Committee's biennial convention in Arlington yesterday.

"Karl Rove is right," announced the National Republican Senatorial Committee, the chief campaign arm of Senate Republicans, in a fundraising e-mail message yesterday.

The right wing motto: lie or deny, but never apologize.

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    Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize | 42 comments (42 topical)
    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Jim would have us believe that any form of dissent is unconscionable, as he belives we should, like all good 'murcans, march in lockstep behind our dear leader, regardless of the foolishness of his decisions. Sorry Jim, I love my country enough to say "NO!" when it's govt. act in a manner that is self-destructive, and contrary to it's established ideals. You keep on drinking the kool-aid though.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:31 PM EST
    Vietnam all over again. If they are "only talking about the far left", well, Abbie Hoffman didn't cause us to lose the last one, and Michael Moore isn't causing us to lose this one. Then as now, the far left's influence was absolutely negligible. So if Rove is only talking about "the left", then he is factually mistaken, as the left has practically zero influence over the rest of the country. But of course he isn't talking about "the left", but about everyone who is against the war, which now means 60% of the country. Obviously BushCo has already thrown in the towel on this war, and is looking for someone to blame their defeat on.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#1)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    The left has been against the entire war - including Afghanistan - pretty much from the start. Trawl through "Democratic Underground" (where Senator Edward's wife hangs out) and see what lurks there. Or Daily "Screw 'em" Kos" for that matter. Or MoveOn. The left has been undermining the war long before it got to Iraq. And still is

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    James Robertson, Well, duh-h-h-h. It was based on lies.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#3)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    James Robertson makes the mistake of assuming "the left" was against the war in Afghanistan. James Robertson makes the mistake of conflating what's happening in Iraq with any of the reasons we went into Afghanistan. James Robertson parrots the "the left has been undermining the war" talking point that's sprouted up like crabgrass in the summer sun. ...what're the victory conditions for the War on Terror® of which Iraq is only but the central front?

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    The left has been against the entire war - including Afghanistan - pretty much from the start.
    Well of course we were....you see James, we on the left wanted to go after BIN LADEN after 9/11...remember him? And we felt that waging an unnecessary war with Iraq was certainly not the right way to go about it. After 9/11, if we had a President with any interest in actually finding Bin Laden, we would have broken off friendly ties with the Saudis until they proveded complete cooperation. We would have questioned the Bin Laden family and not let them out of the country until we were satisfied, and we would have used surgical tactics to close down the Saudi monetary supply line that Bin Laden is still using to this day...that's if we had a President who actually gave a damn about finding those responsible for 9/11....maybe like, oh, I dunno...GORE!!!!! Hey James, 3,000 + people died on 9/11...where's Bin Laden??? You don't care.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#6)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    JR, Catch a clue, the Taliban is still in charge in Afghanistan. We run Kabul, that's about it. Are you for the incompetant pursuit of war? That seems to be W's position. Bush was on very thin ice going to war, then he did the most pathetic job possible with it. Which part are you pro on?

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    jr thrives on lamebaugh's talking points, please don't confuse him with facts. According to the cia, iraq is a recruiting ground for terrorists. Muslims who never would have attacked the US before are getting 'crash' courses in IEDs and terrorism techniques. In the wake of the Iraq war, even our allies prefer China to U.S. And Afganistan is still home to the taliban, and Osama Ben Ladin (remember him, mastermind behind 9/11 ... wanted dead or alive) is alive and well and has achieved his aims. Maybe he erected the "Mission Accomplished" banner on the aircraft carrier that bush spoke in front of and then denied having anything to do with.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#8)
    by DonS on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    The Left has been "undermining the war"? The "war"? Would that be terra? Afganistan? Iraq? What a stupid comment? Meaningless generalizations. Anyone with a grain of sense has be attempting to curtain the Iraq war; this illegitimate, illegal, ill considered, and optional war. With no raison d'etre, no justification, no strategy, no progress, and no end point. Get a grip. Blame those who had it right at the beginning, and continue to have it right. Anything but face the truth. What an ignorant pose.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#9)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    Fenria: "After 9/11, if we had a President with any interest in actually finding Bin Laden, we would have broken off friendly ties with the Saudis until they proveded complete cooperation. We would have questioned the Bin Laden family and not let them out of the country until we were satisfied, and we would have used surgical tactics to close down the Saudi monetary supply line that Bin Laden is still using to this day...that's if we had a President who actually gave a damn about finding those responsible for 9/11....maybe like, oh, I dunno...GORE!!!!!" You might examine who made the call to let those people out, without running it by anyone up the food chain. That would be Richard Clarke. erhaps you remember him; when he was last seen, he was accusing the administration of all manner of malfeasance, almost as if he had some inept decision that needed ignoring. The rest of you can take your tinfoil hats off now and go back to "Democratic Underground", where it seems you belong.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#10)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    James, I know where Al-Qaeda stands. And I'm getting the perception that Iraqi's are getting pretty proficient at making "improvised explosive devices." But, I don't know what my government is doing because it keeps secrets from the people and their Congress. Even on the NSA's website, they say, "Respecting the law is only a part of gaining Americans' trust." And this administration has self-admittedly outside-the-law deetention facilities. I remain skeptical and suspicious.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    The left has been against the entire war - including Afghanistan Just curious, would you be referring to the 1 representative (out of 200+ Dems) that voted against authorizing war in Afghanistan, or the 0 senators that voted against it?

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:33 PM EST
    "You might examine who made the call to let those people out, without running it by anyone up the food chain."
    Uhhh, actually it was the bush admin that let all saudis ( you remember, the country that almost all of the terrorists were from and perpetrated 9/11) leave the country on special fllights when every american airplane was grounded.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#13)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Actually, Rove specifically referred to MoveOn and the self-described liberals in that group. Interesting to see who else identifies with that group and rushes to their defence. Interesting for the voters to see the same. Call the US military Nazis and the Republicans will vigorously defend them. We can see where their hearts lie. Call MoveOn liberals and Democrats respond with equal vigor. The voters can see clearly which side each party is on. And the voters will remember, especially later, when the Dems try to move to the center, if only symbolically. And when that move fails, and another election goes into the books, Dems should remember incidents like this, where they happily helped Mr. Rove to define them in his own terms. He's not only outmaneuvering his opponents, he's getting themto help him do it. The true master of any craft makes it look easy. And even when someone like myself points it out, the libs'll deny it and continue and wonder why they can't beat the guy. Gosh, I have no idea. Maybe he's just lucky.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#14)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Ras: I Believe.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#15)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Sorry, Ras. No mention of MoveOn.org in this story. And no mention of MoveOn.org in any of the news stories readily available through "googling." Only after Rove made his comments did the political/media machine try to discern a difference between liberals and democrats... even though Rove can't seem to tell the difference if that's the case. See? The discourse and discussion have become so muddied that people entrench themselves in comfortable, long-held opinions. But I can say this: compared to Sen Barack Obama's graduation speech, Karl Rove is definitely derisive and divisive. And I don't like vigilantes. They go after bad guys, they go after guys who aren't good, and then they go after guys who aren't good enough. I've grown used to this type of exclusive rhretoric from "entertainment" types like Limbaugh and Coulter and the rest... but to hear it from the keystone architect of the Bush campaign...? I'm alarmed.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    I like 'Paul in LA's theory better:
    Digby kids himself that 'Rove' is a person. It's a bank of CIA computers working day and night to discover every evil opportunity that the machines can think up.
    I've known for a long time that extreme leftists were not entirely rooted in the same universe as the rest of us, but this obsession with The Matrix is new to me. Once again I appreciate the beauty of a competitive democratic system: the party whose policies fly in the face of reality necessarily has a hard time successfully dealing with election realities. Suh-weet.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Sure thing, space cadet -- YOU'RE the one claiming that the CIA and the Bush USPNAC don't use computers to operate their psywar. Because they eschew technology -- these bastards who are reinitiating nuclear warfare, who are using incendiary bombs on cities, who are bragging about testing torture weapons on civilian populations, and who are holding tens of thousands of people who would interfere with their oil pipeline installation scheme. THEY wouldn't use computers! They just pray to Jesus and Diebold on the half hour for nothing. "Hey James, 3,000 + people died on 9/11...where's Bin Laden??? You don't care." Where's the anthrax sender? Where's Zarkawi? Where's the WMD? Where's the nukes that Cheney continues to claim exist (while leaving the doors on Tuwaitha wide open for a month so the insurgents could arm up on cesium and strontium cannisters). Where is the justification for war, even now? Bush doesn't discuss the installation of the massive airbases in A SOVEREIGN, DISARMED COUNTRY. Nuremberg is not just for lovers.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#18)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Sorry Darryl, See here But you make a good case as to why the lib cocoon needs to develop alternate source outside of the NYT. Cheers.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#19)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Darryl, btw, it took me ...oh, 20 seconds or so ... to find the original transcripts. Perhaps your googling skills need a workout. Cheers again.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#20)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Ras, Thanks for the link. Do you guys actually believe that crap? Want to buy a bridge?

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#21)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Ras, Thank you for providing the link to Rove's comments. Please don't deride me. It makes me resistant. And, yes. Restraint was called for after the terror attacks. Going into Afghanistan was called for. Going into Iraq was not.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#22)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Ah, it's starting to make sense. Rove hits the nerve. The right's political machine moves to tar everyone who reacts. As an example:
    "Carnivores, like werewolves, are evil!" So the hamburger-eater lobbie gets in a snit. The political machines response: "We're talking about werewolves. If you're upset about that, you must be a werewolf too."
    I've got to hand it to the right: they've got that bully-toady thing down pat.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#23)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Grad Student - PIL can provide you quite an eductation if you just let him. ;-) DP writes: And I don't like vigilantes. They go after bad guys, they go after guys who aren't good, and then they go after guys who aren't good enough. Nice comment about viglantes. It also applies to political movements. The current far Left started out as activist liberals who were against the Vietnam war

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#24)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Yes, Jim. I haven't changed my politics for the past 24 years. And yet over the years I've been derisively called a democrat, a liberal, a socialist, a communist, a traitor and now evil. Seems to me the name-callers are moving farther out.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#25)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Look people all of what you see is a lie and deny thing on all sides, our government is a joke and the people are insane, but its all for the show.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#26)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    oops again, a few techie problems this AM.. anyway... They had a few good points, but when they didn't immediately get their way they become radicalized, helped by communists fellow travelers, mostly university based, and a press that was anti-war. The politicans turned and ran when the general populace, woefully propagandized by the MSM's distortions - see Cronkite's story on how we had lost Tet when we had actually won - didn't react. At that point I left the pack and became an Independent. Watching libraries get burned and blown up, bank guards get killed and listening to idiots praise Ho was just too much. The same thing is trying to be done, now. The difference is the cable news channels and the Internet is keeping a more balanced picture in front of the public. As was said in the time of Vietnam, the sarcastic put down was: "Sorry about that."

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#27)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    DP - I would never call you evil. Misguided? Yes. But, understand. If you aid something that results in bad things happening, again I exclude the word evil, then you bear some responsibility. That is a concept that is as old as civilization, and I know you are too intelligent to not understand it. So, I know you must believe that you think your actions will lead to something good. That, in your mind, is to leave Iraq. Unfortunately, several things would happen if we cut and run: Those in Iraq who have tried to establish a new govewrnment will be killed, slaughered actually, by the terrorists. The terrorists will see that we will not defend ourselves and they will believe that they can obtain world domination by continuing their terror tactics. All of the progress toward democracy in the other ME countries will be lost. Israel will be subject to massive attacks. Iran will develop their nuclear weapons, and they will be used on the US. Again, some will say that these things are caused by evil actions of anti-war people. I say that the terrorists are evil, you are misguided, but the results are evil.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    It's also nice to see that some of our soldiers in uniform on the left have taken exception to Karl's comments, and are trying to respond in kind. I especially enjoyed "Come over here and say that, Chickenhawk".

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Havelock is right about everything that will happen in Iraq if we leave. But he left out the fact that all those things will happen if we stay as well. There are no good outcomes possible, thanks to the Bush admin. Afghanistan was a terrorist hotbed not because it was a rogue state, but precisely because it was a failed state. And another Afghanistan is what Iraq is fast on its way to becoming. The next time a skyscraper, or an entire downtown, goes up in a ball of flame, it will not be in spite of Bush's actions in the ME, but because of them.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    sorry, not havelock, but 'ppj aka jim' (misread 'posted by' tags)

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:34 PM EST
    Here is a little nugget from Rove: Here he calls Durbin, a DEMOCRAT a liberal
    Let me put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts to the region the words of Senator Durbin, certainly putting America's men and women in uniform in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals
    .For decades, liberals were setting the agenda, the pace of change, and the visionary goals. Conservatives were simply reacting to them. But times change, often for the better - and this President and today's conservative movement are shaping history, not trying to stop it. Together we are articulating a compelling vision of a better world -- and I am grateful to all of you who are making that better world a reality.
    those are democrats that were doing these things as a group. Compared to one mention of move-on

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:35 PM EST
    Posted by Jim: "Grad Student - PIL can provide you quite an eductation if you just let him. ;-)" Bush would be happy to provide YOU an 'eductation' any time you want to bend over. Oh...you ARE bending over. Well, that explains it then.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#34)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:35 PM EST
    PIL - Sex still on your mind, eh? Can't get a date? I understand why. Adept - Make all the excuses you want. Rove nailed it. Pity you can't figure it out.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    Sailor.... Uhhh, actually it was the bush admin that let all saudis ....leave the country on special fllights when every american airplane was grounded. LOL...you've been watching too many Micheal Moore movies! Never happened!

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    you can criticize M Moore's style all you want, but his facts were in order. Unless you don't believe the 9/11 Commission and the TIA:
    TIA now verifies flight of Saudis The government has long denied that two days after the 9/11 attacks, the three were allowed to fly.
    So once again, the admin lied, denied, but never apologized. (see how I did that? Brought it back to the actual thread?. try it some time instead of tangents and troll cookies.)

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#37)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    "Rove nailed it. Pity you can't figure it out." See, I'm actually against all this apology crap across the board. I defended Lott, too. If Rove thinks the Democrats are traitors who don't care about their country then he ought to say it, people need to know where the rulers stand after all. Indeed, as PPJ's "Amen" attests, this view of Democrats is a staple of the Right. So let it be out there. Were Rove to apologize or say, "I wasn't really talking about Democrats..." or something like that, what would the smokescreen really accomplish? He is what he is.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    Jim: "Sex still on your mind, eh? Can't get a date? I understand why." At which point Jim pauses in his lounge act, for a refreshing slurp of the blood of innocents. "Ah, babies -- their dangling bits on the kitchen walls of Former Iraq are so sad. But maybe we can send some Mexicans over there to help clean up. A-ha-ha-ha."

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    sailor.... but his facts were in order. LOL..that's a good one! Very little about that trash was factual. Hey, I can provide all kinds of links to all kinds of crap...doesn't make any of it true. Micheal Moore (& the lefties like him ) are what's wrong with the Dem party.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    Paul in La La.... "Ah, babies -- their dangling bits on the kitchen walls of Former Iraq are so sad. Funny Paul... I see you constantly berating the US military.... but I never hear you say a bad word about the crazies blowing themselves up & taking 20 or 30 civilians with them. Why is that? It's ok with you for them to kill babies? Oh wait....I'm sorry...yes that's right..they are "Freedom Fighters" and all those nasty civilians are cramping their style & must die... is that it?

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    You have lamebaugh ranting points. I have facts backed up by the 9/11 commission. allegations v facts ... get it? got it. good. Yes, Michael Moore, who told the truth, (if you have facts otherwise he'll pay $$), is what's wrong, but chickenhawks who lied their way into and thru the war are what's right with america. what a maroon.

    Re: Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize (none / 0) (#42)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    Hey, I can provide all kinds of links to all kinds of crap...doesn't make any of it true. According to bb, the 9/11 commission is crap. Actually, I'm beginng to think another song from "The Court Jester" about a self made man might be more appropriate for bb ;-)
    A jester? A jester? A funny idea, a jester! No butcher, no baker, no candlestick maker and me with the look of a fine undertaker impressed her... as a jester?

    But where could I learn any comical turn that was not in a book on the shelf? No teacher to take me to mold me and make me a merry mad fool or an elf!

    But I'm proud to recall that in no time at all with no other recourses but my own resources with firm application and determination... I made a fool of myself!


    Lie or Deny, But Never Apologize | 42 comments (42 topical)