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Remote Control Killing as Sport

How sick is this? If you're having trouble making it to the hunting range, don't fret. John Lockhart, who runs Live-Shot.com will arrange for you to kill animals (for real) via remote-control on his website, using a computer and mouse.

You can choose from an assortment of live animals that roam a ranch in Texas.

A rifle, video camera and computer are mounted on a stand at the ranch at a spot where deer, antelope and sheep frequently pass. From thousands of miles away, via computer, a person can control the camera and gun, firing with the click of a mouse.

Isn't it illegal? Apparently, not yet. Lawmakers in California and several other states are trying to shut Lockwood down.

Even if Lockwood doesn't have customers lining up around the block, the notion that a venue exists for remote-control killing has triggered a backlash of disgust, compelling lawmakers and forging an unlikely coalition of big-game hunters and animal-rights activists.

...."It's not hunting," said Kirby L. Brown, executive vice president of the Texas Wildlife Association, which represents landowners, hunters and conservationists. "It falls off of the end of the ethical chart."

The California Senate will be voting on a bill to ban the site today. Unfortunately, it sounds like a wrong-headed bill.

In February, California state Sen. Debra Bowen, a Democrat from Marina del Rey, introduced SB 1028 to forbid Californians from using Lockwood's Web site or starting a similar business. The bill faces a vote in the full Senate on Thursday. Bowen said she shares the concern about where Internet hunting might lead. "What's the line between real life and a video game?" Bowen said. "It has all the video-game feel: It's remote, it's disconnected from the reality of it, the hunter doesn't have to deal with any blood or wounding or tracking."

Constitutionally speaking, I don't want to see a bill that outlaws websites and video games. I want to see one that targets the offensive behavior: killing animals by computer. The feds have a better idea - pass a law that requires hunters to be in physical possession of their weapon.

A bill banning remote control hunting was introduced in Congress this week:

Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., introduced a bill to make Internet hunting punishable by up to five years in prison. Lawmakers in states from Texas to Maine also have introduced bills, some that would require hunters to be in physical control of their weapons, others that make it illegal to kill a bird or animal by remote control or via an Internet connection. Virginia has already imposed such a law.

Lockwood defends his new venture.

Lockwood argues that legislators haven't taken the time to understand how his business can help disabled people or soldiers stationed overseas enjoy the thrill of hunting. He says he has received inquiries from soldiers in Iraq and Spain, including one who said he was less interested in hunting than in getting meat to his family.

"Most people would prefer to be out there," Lockwood said. "But I do get many, many e-mails from those who can't. Why deny those people that opportunity?"

I have nothing against hunting. I support an individual's right to buy, sell and possess firearms under the Second Amendment and I oppose restricting the sale of video games because they contain violence on first amendment grounds. But this one leaves me speechless. Do any of you care to respond?

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    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:17:02 AM EST
    Thanks for the link! Many city dwellers are opposed to hunting, be it outdoors or online. At the same time, these people eat meat. How hypocritical it is to eat factory farmed animals but hassle others who shoot their own food! Regards, John Lockwood

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:48:21 AM EST
    Actually, this sounds like the story of the guy with the website allowing you to turn his Christmas lights on and off with a mouse click. It was just a hoax with pre-arranged pictures for money...

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:33:33 AM EST
    I may be wrong but I am pretty sure the Daily Show did a spoof on this alittle while back....

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:56:28 AM EST
    If the online hunters are getting the carcass shipped to them to be eaten, I'm fine with it. If not, then this is just plain sick.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:58:12 AM EST
    sigh me up, i want to shoot ted nugent

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#6)
    by cp on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:00:19 AM EST
    hey john, you're full of it. the vast majority of hunters don't need to hunt, to feed their families. so please, spare me the intellectually vacant premise that that's what they're doing. frankly, if they're engaging in this activity, they are more than well off enough financially to be able to afford to shop at the grocery store. on the other hand, you might be on to something. i see this as a potentially viable alternative to having actual soldiers in afghanistan and iraq: just have them fight the insurgents, via remote control. it would save a lot of time and money. this could be done 24/7, in 8 hour shifts, and everyone could go home after their shift was over. the savings in medical costs alone should more than pay for it. just a thought.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:27:22 AM EST
    “frankly, if they're engaging in this activity, they are more than well off enough financially to be able to afford to shop at the grocery store.” And why would grocery store bought meat be preferable? Your grocery store experience is, if anything, more despicable than remote hunting. You’ve contracted the killing and have had it sanitized for you. I can see the effect in your cavalier attitude, as if supermarket beef was somehow manufactured instead of slaughtered. However, the animals I kill have lived free range and have died at my hand. I am fully aware of just how alive my food was, and further the grizzly process of killing, gutting, and cleaning. Have yet to see one reasoned objection that doesn’t apply to all hunting/animal consuption.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:29:09 AM EST
    this city dweller thought the "thrill of the hunt" involved communing with nature in the great outdoors. (Which is why I am not opposed to hunting per se). This just sounds like killing stuff.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#9)
    by John Mann on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:40:32 AM EST
    “America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization.” - John O'Hara

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#10)
    by roy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:11:03 AM EST
    Is anybody here suggesting this is sicker than hunting in person? If so, how? The answers from the article (" It's remote, it's disconnected from the reality of it...) apply to buying grocery store meat just as well.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:12:29 AM EST
    John, if you can't spot what is wrong with this idea, we probably can't explain it to you. I don't eat too much meat, but I don't kid myself about how meats ends up on my plate. I grew up in Texas and hunted when I was a kid. Dove hunting and whitetail deer. I plucked, cleaned, cooked and ate what I killed. I love venison, but haven't had any in decades now. The deer no longer have any reason to fear me. Broccoli and cauliflower should pick up their roots and run when they see me coming.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#12)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:17:40 AM EST
    "...if you can't spot what is wrong with this idea, we probably can't explain it to you.” If it is so obviously wrong you should have little trouble explaining it. I understand; a gut reaction defies explanation. Don’t pretend it's ration.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:34:09 AM EST
    the premise seems comical, "too fat and lazy to kill in person?" who is this supposed to appeal to? I would imagine real hunters probably think it's stupid.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#14)
    by Darryl Pearce on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:54:50 AM EST
    "physical possession of the weapon" That will need some parsing. Would gloves prevent physical possession? "Devil's in the details," as they say.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:15:42 AM EST
    The US military has been doing this kind of stuff to people for years now. It ain't nothin' new.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:26:03 AM EST
    You guys really need to start watching the "Daily Show" with John Stewart.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#17)
    by John Mann on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:49:01 AM EST
    I don't have a problem with people hunting for food, nor do I have a problem with eating meat - even the stuff we buy at the supermarket with its hormones and antibiotics and God knows what else in it. Trophy hunting is sick. Killing for sport is sick. Blood sports like bullfighting are sick. Killing animals by remote control - if this is truly being done - is head-shakingly, mind-bogglingly sick. People who participate in such avtivities are sick and in major denial about how sick they are. The people who argue with this idea will never understand why these things are sick, so it's pointless to try explaining it to them.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#18)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:03:06 AM EST
    “The people who argue with this idea will never understand why these things are sick, so it's pointless to try explaining it to them.” Ad homonym; if you have a reasoned argument get to it. “People who participate in such avtivities are sick and in major denial about how sick they are.” It seems you think that because you pay not to see the grizzly details you are somehow more mentally fit than the guy who pays to participate. Paying someone to drive a metal bolt through a cows skull, butcher and package, and then mail you the meat isn’t less ‘sick’ than driving the bolt yourself. I guarantee the workings of a factory farm (your hired hit men) are for more grotesque and cruel than what is essentially a remote free-range slaughterhouse. Denial indeed.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:09:36 AM EST
    Will this guy be killing Cats to? and maybe little dogs? how soon before he comes up with a person?, homeless person?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#20)
    by roger on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:11:31 AM EST
    The University of Florida has a course called "The meat we eat". MUCH grosser than cleaning, killing and dressing your own game meat. Game tastes better too.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#21)
    by roy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:15:10 AM EST
    Amongst the sickened, the consensus seems to be that this is wrong, but they can't explain why. That's fine with me, I feel that way about a lot of stuff. Most people do. But is that a good enough reason to outlawit? It's the same sort of imposing-of-moral-values that the Right is demonized for here.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#22)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:26:39 AM EST
    Is it just me, or has this thread gone seriously off-track? I have yet to see anyone, sports(wo)man or no, address the topic at hand, which is whether remote control hunting should be made illegal. Are those of you who are gleefully pointing out everything that sucks about factory farming (and believe me, I agree it sucks) doing so in order to (a) condemn factory farming or (b) justify remote control hunting? Or are you just bringing it up to be annoying?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#23)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:29:08 AM EST
    Roy, regardless of the "ick" factor, there are good practical safety reasons for outlawing remote-control hunting, if you ask me.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#24)
    by roy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:35:14 AM EST
    nolo, I think factory farming has come up not to justify remote control hunting, but to put remote control hunting in context. If we're (eventually, hopefully) going to discuss whether RC hunting should be legal, shouldn't we discuss examples of related things which are legal? As for your other post about safety concerns, it seems to me that Live-Shot's plan is more controlled than regular hunting. It's probably safer. And safety regulations can be imposed without outlawing the activity entirely (as is done for regular hunting).

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:45:20 AM EST
    “… justify remote control hunting? Or are you just bringing it up to be annoying?” It’s the classic ‘you are a hypocrite’ argument. Those who eat factory-farmed meat (it seems to be a number of folks here) have poor moral standing to condemn another’s source; clearly relevant. Further, if you agree that both are wrong it seems effort would be better spent working against the vastly larger factory farm problem. But again, the negative responses seem simply gut reaction and whim, i.e. ‘People who participate in such avtivities are sick’ 'Roy, regardless of the "ick" factor, there are good practical safety reasons for outlawing remote-control hunting, if you ask me.' Visit the site and familiarize yourself with the process, then let’s hear about what you feel is unsafe.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#26)
    by jen on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:51:24 AM EST
    Remote control 'hunting' seems to me to be a waste of time and money. Hunting is more than killing isn't it? Isn't it partly about being with friends, being outdoors, tracking, and target shooting the killing part is the payoff? Where's the fun in cheating? Killing wouldn't be the same through a monitor, might as well just play the hunting video games. Hunting (or fishing) for food is not sick (and can be mighty tasty when my stepfather does it) Sport hunting to keep down population isn't sick. Sport hunting to take pictures is definately not sick. A generalized desire to kill just for the sake of killing I will never understand. Killing is not fun. It's no thrill. Its hard. I have euthanized enough animals to know that. Try it while gently cuddling someone's dying puppy while you inject the solution. I cannot imagine what kind of person would enjoy it.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:57:21 AM EST
    Piggy, How about a vegetarian. Your grocery store argument does not hold. I respect the right of hunters to kill for meat, regardless of whether or not meat is available in the grocery store. I might still have reasons to question their state of mind, just as I question the state of mind of soldiers who are trained to kill humans that have nothing to do with rationality. But this example goes beyond that. moving a mouse that operates a rifle on a ranch is not sport or hunting. It is sick. You don't need rationality to understand that. You just have to be properly raised within a moral society that values the sanctity of life (I mean that in a liberal sense of honoring all of God's creatures,while realizing we our part of a system where we are sustained through eating other creatures--and unavoidable contradiction. There is a difference between this action and ordering the meat online to be delivered to your house. I see this difference. I think others also see this difference. I also see a difference between hunting and holding a rifle and the the computer operated rifle option for obtaining meat. One is more moral than the other. If you want rationality to explain this you are one morally diseased individual (what I have suspected all along).

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#28)
    by roy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:59:05 AM EST
    Hunting is more than killing isn't it? Isn't it partly about being with friends, being outdoors, tracking, and target shooting the killing part is the payoff?
    That is a reason why RC hunting would be less fun than regular hunting. Not less ethical or less legal.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:02:34 AM EST
    Make it illegal? Of course not. Not worth the bother, we have enough unnecessary laws. If somebody is eating the deer, I don't see the difference between this and a slaughterhouse killing. Ideally, the animals suffering should be minimized, but as long as the steak makes its way to my plate, I'm happy. But if the deer is being thrown away or stuffed, it's the pastime of a twisted individual, remote control or in person. Killing an animal for no reason is a crime against nature. Killing an animal for food IS nature.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#30)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:03:42 AM EST
    roy, since I'd have no problem putting some severe restrictions on factory farming, maybe you have a point. But do you really want to go there? And in the spirit of full disclosure, I've eaten cute things I've raised myself, so this isn't a "poor Bambi" POV on my part.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:08:06 AM EST
    Please go to the site before you comment. To do any hunting, hunters must make a trip to the ranch in Texas. The remote-control gun is for shooting at PAPER targets. And even for that, they have developed safety procedures. The example they give is that, if a bird flys into the area, you won't be able to shoot it.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#32)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:17:32 AM EST
    I think Jen has put her finger on something. Remote control hunting has only one of the experiential features that in-person hunting has, which is killing the animal. Every other experiential factor is delivered, at best, in facsimile form. And as far as the quality of the ersatz experience is concerned, you'd probably get a better facsimile experience playing "Deer Hunter" on PS2. Plus, even though it involves real killing, remote control hunting allows the hunter to experience the killing from an emotional and moral distance, in other words, as though it were a facsimile experience. Is this getting icky enough yet?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#33)
    by chupetin on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:21:40 AM EST
    from the site We are currently working on a very comfortable, ADA compliant blind which will house the LIVE-SHOT shooting system. Once this and the perimeter fencing are completed, will we be able to offer a unique computer assisted hunting opportunity. Disabled and handicapped hunters, as well as others who would like to try this type of hunting, will be able to use our system. This is offered in addition to the traditional hunting methods that will be available at the ranch.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#34)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:28:36 AM EST
    “How about a vegetarian. Your grocery store argument does not hold.” After a recent admonishment for going off topic I’m a bit weary of going into this. I’ll simply point out that ALL food was once alive and that certainly all vegetarians relate more to their fellow mammals than the plants they kill to eat. “moving a mouse that operates a rifle on a ranch is not sport or hunting.” I agree, and I also realize others may have some good faith arguments why it is sporting, but in your own words ‘I respect the right of hunters to kill for meat, regardless of whether or not meat is available in the grocery store.’ Do you only do so when you consider it sporting? What about the guy who goes to the pheasant ranch to hunt farm raised birds, eating all he kills? “One is more moral than the other. If you want rationality to explain this you are one morally diseased individual” Well, opinions are like a$$holes… Morality is relative, and certainly isn’t based on rationality. But it isn’t much to ask that an individual’s moral tents be consistent; and that is what I was driving at with the factory farm comparisons. Diseased? No, I simply disagree with you. “…has only one of the experiential features that in-person hunting has, which is killing the animal.” So are we just concerned about how much a person enjoys killing the animal?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#35)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:39:36 AM EST
    So are we just concerned about how much a person enjoys killing the animal?
    Don't you think that's a legitimate concern?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#36)
    by cp on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:54:31 AM EST
    pig, are you truly a moron, or do you just play one on this site? help, help, the straw man cometh! the issue itself, set up by the man himself, is that this somehow equates to: 1. hunting for survival., and 2. the next best thing to being there. my response was primarily to #1, which apparently went way over your head. it was not to hunting, in and of itself, though not an activity i engage in. unless he also has virtual gutting and dressing, with virtual blood on your virtual hands, this has about as much relationship to real hunting as "star wars" has to NASA. should it be illegal? beats me. it seems to me, if you have the required license(s), probably not. however, to equate it to real hunting is a fraud, it's just killing, at a safe and sanitary distance. of course, i'm also of the opinion that deer should be armed and armored, to truly make it a "sporting" activity.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#37)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    “Don't you think that's a legitimate concern?” I find it creepy but not a reason for legislation. If it is reason enough then it should apply to all who consume meat.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#38)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:09:26 AM EST
    “my response was primarily to #1, which apparently went way over your head. it was not to hunting,” I see that now after a rereading. Thanks for pointing it out in a civil and diplomatic way, what a gentleman.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#39)
    by jen on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:25:12 AM EST
    I see your point, Roy. I think it may not be unethical but I feel (yes, I know, its not LOGICAL) it is immoral. I have been trained to be very careful how I treat animals. -- aside from the natural love I have for them. I work in a medical research and development environment so these issues are an important every day concern. There ARE laws against mistreating animals, and some very strict (sometimes silly) regulations. So regulating virtual hunting is not all that outrageous.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:27:40 AM EST
    I'm going to give this a shot (no pun intended). The reason we have always hunted as human carnivores is to satisfy hunger. Since cave people didn't have books to read on the subject, evolution kindly built in an ability to "otherise" the animal, to detach compassion in search of sustenence and it's implied genetic advantage. This biological response to the hunt and kill is innate and extremely satisfying. I would argue that anyone who hunts doesn't do it to commune with nature. Then they would be bird watchers or photographers for National Geographic. They do it for the "thrill of the kill". If you don't get a bit of a hard-on from shooting (i.e. conquering) the animal then hunting has no appeal nor meaning to you. In an agrarian or undeveloped world, children are brought up with close association to life and death, nourishment and starvation. Yet even savages had a recognition for the life of the animal and appreciation (Bless us o lord, etc.)for it's sacrifice. In our "civilized" world, just as we have separated the judge and jury from the executioner, we have separated the acts of killing and of consumption. We can therefore compete genetically by earning enough money to buy better food to help our proginy gain that sought-after competitive advantage. However, many of our animal urges remain. Passion, revenge, addiction, lust are animal urges that separate cooperative effort and impede civilization. IMHO, the urge to kill animals is for the most part a silly indulgence in our lowest form. Most folks who consider themselves "civilized" feel that it's an advance to get the benefit without doing the killing. This obviously has it's own issues, like lack of appreciation for the animals sacrifice and horrendous slaughter conditions (we are doing the same in our prisons)because we don't want to know how the meat gets there (or how the prisoner is punished). Therefore, legislate slaughter conditions that are as humane as possible. If folks want to go out to hunt to HAVE FUN (at least be real) shlepp to the woods and use a real gun - or sit in front of your computer and shoot fake animals. Don't indulge your lower passions at the expense of innocent (albeit animal) lives.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:35:39 AM EST
    My initial, unresearched, unthoughtout, Christian viewpoint is that is despicable - truly and profoundly. Some outgrowth of a culture where life is meaning less and less. Different from hunting in person? Of course. Could I argue why? No. That compass at the core of my being that says "right" or "wrong" pinned to "wrong" instantaneously. Or in other words, YUK

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#42)
    by HK on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:38:44 AM EST
    This is real, not a joke site. They actually want the user to be able to shoot and kill a real live animal. You have the option to either have the animal stuffed and sent to you for extra cost, and/or have the meat sent to you for extra cost, or neither. I have no idea what they do with the animal if you decide you do not want it. They (the owner of the site) says it is for disabled people so they can have the thrill of hunting again. However, the NRA is even against this form of hunting and sponsor hunts for the disabled to actually get out in the woods to hunt. It is also for people who for whatever reason can't get out to hunt. I think it should be regulated, I would prefer it banned. Pretty much all hunting is regulated in some way.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#43)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:09:50 PM EST
    “Don't you think that's a legitimate concern?” I find it creepy but not a reason for legislation. If it is reason enough then it should apply to all who consume meat.
    PETA would be proud of you for adopting the "meat is murder" position in all this. After all, by equating enjoying a good steak with enjoying a good slaughter, isn't that what you just did?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:18:55 PM EST
    Read my lips, Nolo. It's not about the meat.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#45)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:53:41 PM EST
    “After all, by equating enjoying a good steak with enjoying a good slaughter, isn't that what you just did?” Not exactly; if the motive of the killer is relevant or, in other words, a point of legislation than it should be applied throughout; screen slaughterhouse workers or meat consumers for their bloodlust. So, by applying this criterion it doesn’t matter how much you enjoy the steak but rather how much you enjoy the notion of it being killed.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:56:36 PM EST
    mfox, I was addressing pigwiggle, and I know quite well it's not about the meat. Everybody knows it's about the motion, anyway.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#48)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:28:46 PM EST
    Pigwiggle, this isn't about subjective intent. When there's a legitimate reason for killing an animal, and no objectively gratuitous suffering involved, the law doesn't inquire into matters that are between you and your conscience. BUT-- there are a number of practices that have been outlawed because the only purpose they could possibly serve is the gratuitous satisfaction of a lust for pain or killing. That being said, pigwiggle, what I'm taking you to task for is this word-game you've decided to play with people who have a gut aversion to remote-control killing. You've said, in essence, that people who eat meat have no right to criticize people who shoot animals in absentia, presumably because the people who are eating meat didn't kill their dinner themselves. But this misses the point. What makes remote-control hunting repugnant is not that the actual killing goes on at some remove from the person who ultimately will gain some gratification from it. It's that the death of the animal starts to look like the only gratification that can come of it.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:31:02 PM EST
    “America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization.” - John O'Hara "'Tis better to keep one's mouth shut and let others THINK him a fool, than to open it, and remove ALL DOUBT." - Mark Twain

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#50)
    by nolo on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:33:36 PM EST
    Oh, and like Hmmmmm said, it's pathetic and cowardly. nolo (who wouldn't mind a nice big bowl of venison chile -- mebbe with some homemade cornbread fresh out of the skillet and a nice cold beer)

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    Seems like a couple of issues here; first, is hunting(& fishing) OK? and second, is remote hunting OK? If you don't agree with hunting/fishing, you obviously won't agree with it being done remotely. I do agree with hunting/fishing. There is a lot more to hunting than the supposed "thrill of killing" that non-hunters reflexively apply to hunters. The "thrill" I got from hunting and fishing was from successfully implementing a group of skills that I learned through a heck of a lot of practice over the course of a number of years. There was no "blood thirst" that needed to be slacked. Some people get a "thrill" from applying some hard-earned skills and sinking a 30' jump shot at the buzzer, others from applying some hard-earned skills and closing a big business deal, and still others from applying some hard-earned skills and tracking and shooting or catching prey. I can see the attraction of the concept behind the site. There will be skills neccessary to be learned and practised in order to succeed, and that will be appealing to some. Not to me, I've never been a big fan of computer games, but who am I to say that it's wrong for someone else to do it?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:36:37 PM EST
    Can you really call it "hunting" if you can't even bother to show up? Isn't knowing how to safely handle your weapon one of the basic tenents of hunting? Could I say I was "driving a car" if I steered it from 500 miles away? No, yes, then no again.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:40:29 PM EST
    Pigwiggle:
    It seems you think that because you pay not to see the grizzly details you are somehow more mentally fit than the guy who pays to participate. Paying someone to drive a metal bolt through a cows skull, butcher and package, and then mail you the meat isn’t less ‘sick’ than driving the bolt yourself. I guarantee the workings of a factory farm (your hired hit men) are for more grotesque and cruel than what is essentially a remote free-range slaughterhouse. Denial indeed.
    Exactly! Roy:
    Amongst the sickened, the consensus seems to be that this is wrong, but they can't explain why. That's fine with me, I feel that way about a lot of stuff. Most people do. But is that a good enough reason to outlaw it? It's the same sort of imposing-of-moral-values that the Right is demonized for here.
    Exactly right again! Meat eaters have no right to condemn hunters at all. Meat eaters are like Hitler, ordering the use of gas chambers but not operating them himself. How dare they condemn hunters!

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:51:16 PM EST
    I can only speak for myself, a serious meat lover who only went hunting once (bow hunting is freakin' hard!) I am not condemning hunters who eat what they hunt, in fact I consider them better men than me. I tried to kill my dinner that one time with a bow and failed miserably. It's the arseholes who kill an animal only to stuff it that I condemn. Those mooks commit crimes against nature, in my opinion.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:57:01 PM EST
    Does it worry anyone that when someone comes up with something newer and sicker - someone else says do not ram your morality down my throat? Where does that stop? Doesn't society have a right to decide something which only remotely kills bambi (not another human) feels wrong (to a majority of us) and stop it? What if a terminally ill patient was offered a substantial sum to participate in the hunt - and was willing to say this was their way to committ suicide and provide for the future of their wife and children? Is suicide wrong? Is stopping you from committing suicide someone forcing their moral opinions down your throat? Any different because it is a remote control rifle than Kevorkian's brew? There are societal standards of right and wrong which the majority is free to impose on the minority even if the minority's actions only hurt themselves.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:59:54 PM EST
    HMMMM...I have had the pleasure of venison chile....good stuff. Here's an idea....put some pressure on this company to do away with the stuffing option post-kill, and donate the meat to soup kitchens. Internet hunters get their kicks, people get fed, and the sacrifice of the animal is not wasted. Everybody wins.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:03:24 PM EST
    As someone who grew up hunting and fishing, and still do, I cannot imagine any serious hunter finding any satisfaction in this. I can see other uses for this type of technology. It could be marketed to the masses like this: Have several set up on a gun range. One attached to a say, Barret .50cal, another attached to a 12ga. shotgun, another attached to a muzzleloader, etc. The people on line could fire at targets. They could see the effects of something they do not normally see.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:09:08 PM EST
    There are societal standards of right and wrong which the majority is free to impose on the minority even if the minority's actions only hurt themselves
    I strongly disagree with this statement. It's that type of logic that forces me to risk arrest everytime I see my ganja man. If the minorities actions only hurt themselves, why can't the majority mind their own business...live and let live and all that. As for your terminally ill patient scenario...who am I to question another person's life (or death) decision. No one is being forced to participate in an activity that the majority finds morally abhorrent. Again, to each his own and mind your own. That's why, as morally abhorrent as I find sport hunting (when the animal is not eaten), I wouldn't want to see it criminalized.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:18:05 PM EST
    There are societal standards of right and wrong which the majority is free to impose on the minority even if the minority's actions only hurt themselves.
    I think you'd be more comfortable over at the Christian Coalition.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#60)
    by roy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:20:04 PM EST
    So, from those who think recreational (not just food) hunting in person is acceptable, but RC recreational hunting is not, it sounds like... It's OK to enjoy killing animals, but only if you enjoy other stuff at the same time.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#61)
    by roger on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:34:18 PM EST
    I no longer have time to hunt, but I can still get some venson from friends. Nothing wrong with hunting, its primal nature is part of the attraction. We are predatory animals. Get over it. As creepy as RC hunting is (and it is), those who are willing to pay should be able to do so legally. I am sure that unshipped meat is eaten at the ranch, or given to charity.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#62)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:51:48 PM EST
    What happens if the first shot is not a kill? Is there someone there for a coup d'grace? Or to track the injured animal? Those are questions I'd need to know before I could decide.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 03:37:09 PM EST
    I can see the attraction of the concept behind the site. There will be skills neccessary to be learned and practised in order to succeed, and that will be appealing to some.
    For these people, like I said before, there are some very fine PS2 games. Cabela's line of games is, I hear, a lot of fun.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#64)
    by John Mann on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:03:14 PM EST
    Pigwiggle: "It seems you think that because you pay not to see the grizzly details you are somehow more mentally fit than the guy who pays to participate. Paying someone to drive a metal bolt through a cows skull, butcher and package, and then mail you the meat isn’t less ‘sick’ than driving the bolt yourself. I guarantee the workings of a factory farm (your hired hit men) are for more grotesque and cruel than what is essentially a remote free-range slaughterhouse. Denial indeed." I guess you didn't notice the part where I said I had no problem with eating meat. Which part of my saying trophy hunting is sick didn't you understand?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:06:28 PM EST
    I like venison too. I've actually cooked it (no long standing skills in hand, I soaked it with Italian dressing and stuck it in the oven) I've actually been to a lot of pig roasts too (that outlaw biker past :) ) I passed on the nose but luuuvvved the homemade bacon. I also really really love fur coats. The rare expensive kind. However I've made a moral decision to not wear any fur that I didn't trap and kill myself. (Needless to say I'm furless! I couldn't get a good hotel for this year's baby seal slaughter.) I am definitely a hypocrite in that I eat killed animals (it was fun explaining to my then three year old that the "chicken" we eat is the same as the "chicken" on the farm). I have worked this out to where if they live and die as humanely as possible, i.e. as I would raise and kill them myself, then I can have some steak with my fries. I haven't launched a boycott (except for veal) however which is what it would probably take to effect change. Indigenous people invariably valued the sacrifice the animal that was to be food made for the humans. They acknowledge the spirit and vowed to preserve the progeny. That's where my line is.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#66)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 05:17:48 AM EST
    Seems kind of meaningless to me. The animal is just as dead either way. The RC hunter is being his potty little self, worship of which process is built into the left so what are you complaining about? I can shoot--practically anything. I can sneak through the woods, or sit still in them. I can put them all together, but it would require me to get out of my recliner so I don't. When I was younger, I figured the only fun hunting would be the ancient kingly stuff. Horses, dogs, bring the critter to bay, hop off with a spear and duke it out. But since the family runs to Infantry, and the process is apparently illegal as hell, and expensive, and some other things, I never got to it. Speaking of hunting to eat, you should know that poachers don't make the stats as "hunters". It is not hard, in the upper midwest, to take a walk down a country road and find the inedible parts of a deer in a ditch. Or hear a single shot just at dusk. This stuff is eaten. North of where I live, some people are reputed to eat little beef, at least in the winter--autumn killed deer being best and the freezer's contents lasting some months. Also, hunt deer to live is a different thing for farmers. They think of deer as two-hundred-pound rats. One organization sued the DNR for not managing the deer population better and costing them significant crop loss. I don't know how that turned out. All in all, it seems like a vaguely, unimportantly creepy thing not worth worrying about. Y'all aren't hunting purists, now, are you?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 06:59:22 AM EST
    We used to duke it out with spears amongst ourselves, Richard Aubrey. Mano a mano - the "honorable" way. I like the virtual war thing. Isn't that how the game of chess began?

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#68)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 03:36:12 PM EST
    mfox. Not bad, as long as I don't have to get on a horse first. I can't remember at this date, but I was bayonet (pugil stick) champion of either my platoon or company in OCS. Fencing helped, I guess. Virtual war is nice as long as you can count on the loser to agree to "lose", and all that means. If he kicks over the board, the Big Referee in The Sky has to step in. If you don't have a couple of bucks in the Big Ref's pocket, you could be up a crick. BTW. With l'arme blanche, there isn't much collateral damage.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#69)
    by roger on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 04:28:25 PM EST
    mfox, I wish that they still did the "mano a mano" thing. GWB and Saddam duking it out would have been a lot cheaper, with a lot less collateral damage. We also could have turned a profit on pay per view instead of bankrupting the country.

    Re: Remote Control Killing as Sport (none / 0) (#70)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 07:36:00 PM EST
    Roger. Fine idea. I see.... FDR vs. Hitler. Churchill vs. Tojo. Too bad our guys were cripples and ancients.