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The New Conservative Pope

By Jeralyn, Section Off Topic
Posted on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 03:56:32 PM EST
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Munich Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedictus XVI, has a personal history that may make some very uneasy:

Belfast Telegraph September 21, 2000 (available on Lexis.com)

The [Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith] CDF is chaired by Joseph Ratzinger, the Cardinal Bishop of Munich. Ratzinger is well-known in the Catholic hierarchy as the hammer of liberation theology in Latin America. Less well known is the fact that he once a member of Hitler Youth.

What is CDF? It oversees issues regarding faith and morals for the Vatican. According the the Belfast Telegraph article, it released a document that said:

"There exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church." In other words, the only true Christian Church is the Roman Church....

So Protestants are now chopped liver? Evangelicals, too?

The new Pope is extremely opposed to homosexuality. He has described it as "an intrinsic moral evil." (Irish News April 17, 2003, Lexis.com)

Attytood has more on the new Pope.

On the other side, Catholics Against the Death Penalty praises the new Pope for helping to revise church teachings to oppose the death penalty.

The Anti-Defamation League is looking forward to working with the new Pope:

"Though as a teenager he was a member of the Hitler Youth, all his life Cardinal Ratzinger has atoned for the fact. "In our years of working on improving Catholic Jewish ties, ADL has had opportunities to work with Cardinal Ratzinger. We look forward to continuing that relationship," the group said in a statement.

The Christian Science Monitor has a good article on why liberal theologians will be disppointed with the papal selection of Cardinal Ratzinger. The Times OnLine asks if there isn't another side to the new Pope.

Others who are disappointed: Women's rights and AIDS activists.

Update: Blaghdaddy is apoplectic over the choice. Lean Left calls the Pope the "the Goebbels of the Vatican." Crooks and Liars has a wrap up of other bloggers thoughts.

Update: Ratzinger on abortion and euthanasia and holy communion.

There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."

A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.

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    The New Conservative Pope | 47 comments (47 topical)
    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 04:38:08 PM EST
    The sun still hasn't set, on this his first day of his Papacy, and the first barbs come flowing. Guess that the honeymoon is over.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 04:45:22 PM EST
    I don't think we have much to worry about as far as Benedict the XVI. He is truly an interm Pope. He was chosen because of his age and his long service and status within the Church. I doubt he will have any real impact on theological teachings, other than reinforcing John Paul's teachings. I imagine within five years we will have another Pope, one who will call a new council (see Vatican II for what a council is). As far as his teachings on, "One true Church, that is standard teaching in the Catholic Church, however, since Vatican II, it has been openly acknowledged that Truth exists outside of the Church (looking towards Eastern religions) and it is the duty of Catholics to find that Truth and embrace it (this little known teaching was what inspired people like Thomas Merton, Trappist Monk, to travel to Asia). As far as the Hitler Youth, everyone was really pushed into joining the Hitler Youth in Nazi Germany. Ratzinger did reach out to Jews in his time as Cardinal. Once asked by a Jewish theologian if the Holy Land had any significance to Christianity, Ratzinger answered, of course. His reason was that Christianity and Judiasm are both religions of the same book and tradition, with Christianity expanding upon it with the belief of Jesus as the Messiah. I believe any questions as to anti-semitism of Ratzinger to be merely intellectual wanderings. If the choice of name is anything to a Pope, and one can only assume that it is (remember John Paul II was a grand evangelizer, his name suggested just that as St. John and St. Paul were both recognized for their evangelization, as opposed to Peter), then we can see Benedict XVI as focusing his own time on promotion of prayer and contemplation, remember Benedict I was the founder of western monasticism. All in all, I think Ratzinger was an expected choice. While Americans will undoubtedly judge him on political analysis, I have no doubt the reason he was elected by the conclave has to do with his own deep faith, and committment to that faith. I can only assume this will be a short Pontifficate, and within five or six years we will see a new Pope, and possibly a new council of the Church. Until then, Catholic or not, I hope we can all take some time and reflect on the state of the world, and our own lives (outer lives as well as spiritual lives). Let's hope that Pope Benedict helps us to begin to examine our own lives.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 04:47:12 PM EST
    Jamus, thank you for that informative response. For those of us who are not Catholic, it was very helpful.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 04:52:15 PM EST
    Dear Talkleft, I posted a link to this article in response to your earlier thread on the election of Pope Benedict. It was printed in the Jerusalem Post earlier this week in response to a Sunday Times article that basically accused Ratzinger of being a Nazi. The article basically explains why the accusation is nonsense. I didn't post a link to the Post's own site because it requires a subscription.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 04:53:45 PM EST
    I sincerely hope is an interim choice, but it's worth noting that John XXIII was expected to be an interim choice. I'm Roman Catholic and I'm not happy with this choice at all. They should have chosen someone from Latin America.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:24:43 PM EST
    What is CDF? It oversees issues regarding faith and morals for the Vatican...
    CDF was better known as The Inquisition until the early 20th century.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:27:44 PM EST
    If he does have any long-term effect on the church, and if he is super-conservative, the effect will be to further alienate American Catholics who are already barely hanging on because of the Church's outdated position on female clergy, birth control, etc. I don't think they would have elected someone who is almost the same age as the Pope who just died of old age if they weren't just buying some time.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:35:26 PM EST
    Ditto The Church's "outdated positions" are rooted in scripture, which is the foundation of their Religion. If you don't like Catholicism, find a faith that you do like. Don't ask Catholics to be hypocrites.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:41:08 PM EST
    I read somewhere that picking an old pope meant they were doing it as an interim measure so they could digest the legacy of the Pope who just died. Whatever that means.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#10)
    by Johnny on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:41:26 PM EST
    Horse, mentioning "hypocrites" in the same sentence as "scripture" is going to bring some heat... I think Ditto makes a good point about American catholics-problem is, they are a distinct minority of the worlds Catholic population.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:57:22 PM EST
    The last time the College of Cardinals opted for an "interim" pope, it selected Angelo Roncalli, and affable and pudgy old guy whom everyone liked and seemed perfectly harmless. Roncalli is now remembered as John XXIII, who convoked the Second Ecumenical Council (Vatican II) and dragged the Church (somewhat kicking and screaming) into a new era. The papacy of John Paul II was devoted largely to stamping out the legacy of Vatican II (or, if you agree with JP II and his right-hand man and successor, now Benedict XVI, they stamped out the "excesses" of Vatican II). A short-term pope can have long-term consequences. Here's why: John Paul II said that ordination of women was not open to question. Done deal. Well, yes, but ... he never issued a proclamation ex cathedra on it. That's the description for "infallible" papal teachings. It leaves the door open, just a crack, for a future pope to revisit the issue. Benedict XVI could slam the door shut by issuing an ex cathedra declaration that women in the priesthood are forever forbidden in the Roman Catholic Church. That would bind every future pope unless such a pope were willing to gut the notion of papal infallibility (highly unlikely, for obvious reasons). The only question is whether Benedict XVI is gutsy enough to start nailing down doctrine tighter than it already is. Well, nobody expects the German Inquisition...

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 05:59:38 PM EST
    Horse: I'm not a Catholic. I'm not asking anyone to do anything. If you think that American Catholics don't, by a large majority, want the Church to allow women clergy, priests to marry, and relax its position on birth control, you must be living under a rock.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:22:03 PM EST
    Let start a Pool on who will die first Castro or Pope benedict arnold? Why do Catholics hate Communists? Because they are so much alike. Both Ruled from the top down, both tolerate No dissent.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:24:18 PM EST
    I am a little disappointed that they have selected a Catholic again. I think a Unitarian would have shaken things up a bit. If you want a more conservative era, go with a Southern Baptist, but no the Cardinals did it again, another Catholic. How many is that now in a row? Has anyone explained diversity to the folks at Vatican City? At least a latin american would have been familiar with the language. What does a German guy know about latin?

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:28:53 PM EST
    Horse didn't say that, Mike. He is saying fads come and go but some truths are eternal. The Catholic faith doesn't change with the times, but sets its course on an eternal destination. If you don't like the course, don't make the journey, and don't expect them to alter the course to suit your temporal fashion.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:35:20 PM EST
    There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
    And what about fetal stem-cells? Supporting the right to an abortion is wrong because life begins at conception (and hence abortion is murder), so supporting fetal stem cell research is equallly wrong (because it requires murder). I guess at this point Ratzinger decided to be a smart politician and simply shut up rather than accept the logical consequences of he's saying. If anything supporting fetal stem-cell research is more wrong than supporting abortions be made illegal because in the former case one supports giving money to people so that they can murder embryos while supporting abortions be made illegal merely says one does not stick in jail people who murder embryos.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:39:40 PM EST
    Well said, Ace. I try to avoid back-patting but this time you've truely outdone yourself (and myself).

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:08:44 PM EST
    I'll say it again since you didn't read it the first time: I'm not a Catholic, and I am not asking or expecting anyone to do anything. Your superstitions are your own business.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:12:21 PM EST
    "...and don't expect them to alter the course to suit your temporal fashion." So what was Vatican II about? Why don't they still give the mass only in Latin? etc. etc.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:27:54 PM EST
    "There exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church." In other words, the only true Christian Church is the Roman Church....
    Speaking as an outsider, that seems to me like an unremarkable statement. How does believing that the Catholic Church is the one true church differ from just being a Catholic? Anyone who thinks that the Roman Catholic Church isn't the one true church presumably would quit.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:39:04 PM EST
    So, I did a bit more research on the new Pope, and found some pretty interesting stuff. Before becoming a Cardinal, Joseph Ratzinger was one of the liberal agitators during the Second Vatican Council. He was one of the theologians behind the attempt to limit the scope of the "Holy Office" (what most people here would know as the Inquisition), because he believed it stifled thought. Although events in 1968 would begin to change his view on this, there are other things that are still interesting. For instance, the doctrine that I spoke of earlier, regarding Truth in other religions, issued from the Second Vatican Council called Nostra Aetate, has been strongly defended by Ratzinger. Many times, though some would dispute, Ratzinger has been a defender not just of traditional Catholicism, but also of the Second Vatican Council. The supposed shift in his views came in 1968, after student riots, he believed that the faith must be defended. While, as I said previously, believe he will only be an interm Pope, and I do not expect anything major, such as an ex cathedra statement on women clergy, I believe that the seeds for, not modernism, but a restoration of the values of Vatican II, may be planted. I know this statement will be easily criticized, after all, we have over 20 years of his influence as a possible guide-post, but I think that to jump to any conclusion is a bit pre-mature. He is not John Paul II, and as I have even observed in what television I have seen today, and what print I have read, he is a very different person from the previous Pope. His emphasis, I believe, will be less on evangelization, and more on prayer, individual or otherwise.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#22)
    by dead dancer on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:40:08 PM EST
    Please don't ask Catholics to be hypocrites; the Church itself adequately covers it without any extra help.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 07:46:26 PM EST
    Now This guy is going to be a-lot of fun to watch.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 08:04:16 PM EST
    He may not be an interm pope. Supposedly he is in excellent health and I suppose he can easily live another ten years or more. But from what I read about him wanting to retire to Bavaria and write books, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes history by retiring from the papacy as soon as his health begins to fail. I am also intrigued about his choice of name. The last Benedict was most remembered for his efforts at waging peace during WWI. One of the less talked about issues is the staunch opposition that the Catholic leaders showed towards the Iraq invasion. Hopefully, the choice of the name suggests an attempt at an effort towards highlighting issues of world peace and justice...and the stark contrast between this and the current U.S. foreign policy or pre-emptive war and globalisation.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 09:59:54 PM EST
    Media is focusing on issues of sexual morality- abortion , homosexuality, -implying or flat out saying that while selfish, liberal Americans and Europeans may be annoyed by him, Pope Benedict is a man of deep faith supported by the mass of Catholics elsewhere. If sex is American Catholics' major problem with him it is only because he has very little power in U.S. beyond the personal behavior of believers. As cardinal ,Pope Benedict told U.S.bishops they could refuse communion to Kerry and other pro-choice candidtates i.e. democrats. The bishops took this as an annoying intrusion. In South America, however, where he had real connections and influenece with the church,the goverment and military and paramilitary he used it to brutal effect. He was known as The Hammer coming down hard on liberation theology and not only in the DeLay sense of pushing agendas though a legistature The very visible, brutal, local-level crushing of liberation theology lead to explosive growth of evangelical and end of time Protestant faiths in South America. For my personal take on him, for what it is worth He is of a generation who was marginally, complicit in nazi regimes. In revulsion and fear of what they had seen, they leaned left after the war. Then came the violent "anti-fascist" strikes and riots of the 1960's. Something most people in U.S. barely remember hearing about. A professor in US would be angry if he found sign on his office door calling him a fascist. But an intellectual or politician in Europe? Who once had been, if only technically, a fascist? Who had seen his own professors, his own government officials disappeared after being called communist or jew or even liberal? That too had begun with signs on doors and riots in the streets and defiance of authority. They felt -It has started again. It is always simmering just below the surface.If we don't stop It, They will be coming for us and perhaps we deserve It. Think the European governments after 1840's. As someone said about those who were tramatized the Paris Commune,-they were never quite sane again. This however is just my guess. I have never met the Pope. If anyone does-there are only 6 degrees of separation and limited topics of conversation -ask him about his memories of those days. n.b. It is true that papal names are significant. But Pope John Paul II did not choose the name John Paul after the apostles. He chose it in honor of his immediate predecesor (sp?) John Paul I who died after a month in office, as an indication that he intened to continue his policies. John Paul I chose the name in honor of his two predecessors John XXIII and Paul VI. It is true that the Catholic Church teaches it is the one true church, It also teaches that in the end only God can judge the human soul. That is you must act on earth as if the Catholic Church were the only route to salvation but after death God will judge as he wishes. .

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#26)
    by chupetin on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:35:40 PM EST
    CA, what a dork. Very funny.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#27)
    by Al on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:52:18 PM EST
    Here is Ratzinger on gays in a letter from the Congregation for the Defense of the Faith to American bishops: It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law. But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one as any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase and Homosexual persons, as human persons, have the same rights as all persons including that of not being treated in a manner which offends their personal dignity (cf. no. 10). Among other rights, all persons have the right to work, to housing, etc. Nevertheless, these rights are not absolute. They can be legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct. This is sometimes not only licit but obligatory. Notice the common rhetorical device: He begins by condemning ill-treatment of gays, then in the next breath justifies it. It is deplorable to attack gays; but nobody should be surprised when they are attacked. Gays have the same rights as everyone else; but those rights are not absolute, and taking them away from gays is totally justified! My prediction, as someone who is quite indifferent to the destiny of the Catholic church: At some point down the road the Catholic church is going to split. I'm sure there are many Catholics who are horrified by this sort of garbage like any other reasonable person, and you have to wonder for how long they are going to tolerate it.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#28)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:06:33 AM EST
    Personally I'm thrilled about the choice, literally jumped for joy when I heard. Still the overt hatred is sad to see. He doesn't officially become Pope until Sunday, and yet he's been condemned. Be wary of "interm" talk. One of the last "interm" Popes initiated Vatican II, which made stark changed to the Church. Jamus is likely right that there will be another council in the not too far future. Ratzinger was a very safe choice. He will be short lived enough that he can't wield power like John Paul II. Plus, now someone will have to fill the position Ratzinger held, and that's where the future of the Church will be determined. Just because the progressives in the church have been making noise doesn't mean that they are the only ones who are unhappy. Splinters to the right have been appearing for some time now because of the refusal to crack the whip on the left (SSPX and an element of Opes Dei for example, as well as individual parashes across the US.) It's counterintuative, but a progressive Pope would ensure a split in the Church. IntraChurch politics are such to where the progressives will not split from the Roman rite. They will be disobedient, but will not formally declare themselves separate. The right will though. The right will say that the Pope has abadoned scriptrual roots of the Chruch and they will refuse to acknowledge his authority. A progressive Pope wouldn't have ended the divisions in the church, but would have given those on the right the push they needed to separate from the left.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:55:33 AM EST
    Though he does not officially become Pope until tomorrow he has a long active history in the church behind him.What you call people's overt hate, I would say overt anger and grief, is based on that history, just as your joy is.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:13:45 AM EST
    Mike, you make the accusation that someone is unaware of American Catholic opinion, and when corrected you hurl a "superstition" charge. Maybe you're not asking anyone to "do anything" but if you want to be taken seriously, you may want to consider making your remarks more coherent. Ernie, you can still attend Latin mass; Vatican II did not make changes in the greater issues.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:51:53 AM EST
    so being gay is "an intrinsic moral evil" to this pope -- a man who has absolutely no experience with sexuality, or in a romantic relationship. this is sociopathis to the nth degree! next time i have a question about science, i think i'll go tell the scientists how their experiments should come out. this guy should clutch his heart and hit the dirt as soon as he can. bye bye, benedict.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 10:29:58 AM EST
    "...you can still attend Latin mass; Vatican II did not make changes in the greater issues." Well, OK then let's go back to the days when this same church persecuted Galileo as a heretic for claiming that the earth was not the center of the universe. It took a few hundred years, but they apologized for that. That was a pretty bold break with the past, though I am still not sure they admitted they were wrong about the earth revolving about the sun. Hmmmm, the more we discuss this, the more I see the appeal of the Catholic church to right-wingers...

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:55:51 PM EST
    I can't help but think the Cardinals went with the safe choice. They may have been scared of what would happen to their numbers if they went with the African dude.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 02:25:39 PM EST
    Jamus: "As far as the Hitler Youth, everyone was really pushed into joining the Hitler Youth in Nazi Germany." Well, that settles it. IT WAS AN ACT OF BETRAYAL TO HIS FAITH AND HIS FATHER. Not so good for a future Papa. The 'one true church' was started by brave human beings who went to the lions rather than betray their faith, Jamus. Maybe he wasn't very Catholic back then, or maybe the Catholic Church has turned away from those like Father Romero who FOUGHT tyranny, rather than signing up. His own father fought, and the family suffered for it -- but that was TOO SCARY for young Ratzinger. He joined up; the available history doesn't describe what his father in the resistance thought of his child who CAVED. And now this one-time coward or sympathizer wants to attack GLBTs, who in my book are just as brave going against Pope Rat than against the local Nazis who were walking the Jews to the ovens. After all, plenty of GLBTs have been killed for their orientation. As for 'interim,' hilarious. The man will probably live another twenty years. The Catholic Church just shot itself in the foot, exposing YET MORE rot. The hope for the Catholic Church IS liberation theology. But the retrograde movement of the dying aristocracy continues.... He should have been born an American, so he would understand FREEDOM.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 03:09:33 PM EST
    Ernie, you remind me of the clerics who refused to acknowledge what they saw in Gallileo's telescope when you condemn the progress so recently made in the Middle East. Maybe you could try putting aside your own dogma when the facts so obviously refute it.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 03:46:39 PM EST
    "...when you condemn the progress so recently made in the Middle East." Please elaborate. I can hardly wait...

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:49:05 PM EST
    No dice, Ernie. It is not my part to instruct you on world affairs. Any informed person knows what I'm referring to. As I was saying about a refusal to acknowledge...

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:15:18 PM EST
    Thanks for your restraint. I am actually glad you didn't embarass yourself this time by explicitly claiming that killing countless thousands of Iraqis was necessary to force a Syrian pullback from Lebanon. The sun does revolve about the earth does it not?

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:21:52 PM EST
    As a Catholic College student, i would like to point something out. The Pope is the Father of the Roman Catholic Church in the line of Peter. Why is everyone acting like this is some kind of political election? If you aren't Catholic, it isn't any of your business. The Vatican and the Pope are Catholic! If you aren't Catholic, why do you care? This is not political! The cardinals are not electing a Pope based on politics, they are electing him based on his ability to lead the Church in the direction that CHRIST wants, not what we want. All of you commenting on "outdated doctrines" that will "bring the church to ruin" clearly have no knowledge of history. In the early days of the Church, Christians were PERSECUTED for their faith. Burned alive, tortured, eaten alive, made spectacles of, and trust me, there were much fewer numbers of them today. If you think the Church cannot weather the times because She isn't moving with the times, wait and watch. Her power isn't from the numbers in the congregation, but from the truth. And that stands OUTSIDE of what ideas of today and tomorrow tell you. I am not saying this to be critical, but out of love for the Faith that God gave me. Christ was persecuted once. Isn't that enough? Do you have to stick your fingers into the Church when all you want to do is make it a politcal spectacle?

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:35:42 PM EST
    Excellent, PYE. And BTW In the early days of the Church, Christians were PERSECUTED for their faith. It wasn't just 'in the early days'...

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:44:21 PM EST
    "Her power isn't from the numbers in the congregation, but from the truth. And that stands OUTSIDE of what ideas of today and tomorrow tell you." Hmmmm...funny that this should be included in the next post after I posed the question as to whether the sun revolves around the earth.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:03:40 PM EST
    Hmmmm... funny that you believe your stupid "reductio de absurdium" (the arguement of the day) rhetorical question has any bearing whatsoever on this Pearl of Wisdom: "Her [the Church's] power isn't from the numbers in the congregation, but from the truth. And that stands OUTSIDE of what ideas of today and tomorrow tell you."

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:22:16 PM EST
    The church version of "the truth" is found seriously wanting in so many cases and so many ways. I was pointing out but one. And no, I won't be surprised that such an obvious point should manage to elude a "true believer".

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:51:43 PM EST
    For those of you who thought that Ratzinger isn't really the pope until he is "sworn in" or something: No. Ratzinger was invested with full papal authority from the moment he accepted his election. There is no "pope-elect" period. Although there will later be a formal investiture ceremony, Benedict XVI is already fully the pope.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 10:22:30 PM EST
    "Excellent, PYE. And BTW... It wasn't just 'in the early days'... It's funny the revisionist tendencies of Conservative writers. Weren't much for that whole "study" thing, eh? ALL religions, all races, all creeds have been subjected to brutal discrimination and persecution over the course of time. Constantine turned the tables on the persecutors - who quickly became the persecutees in Classical Europe. Remember that whole Middle Ages thing? Crusades? Pope Innocente? The re-rewriting of the bible for political concerns? The reaction to the Renaissance? Galileo and Copernicus ring any bells? Inquisitions? Conquistadors? Cortez? British/Spanish Christian missionaires across the world, in India, Africa, Central/South America? Save it. The modern nominal Protestant lacing of the Corporatist aristocracy in this country isn't the concern - its their engineering of our society's materialism at the expense of the intentionally marginalized that is the real victim of persecution in 2005.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:55:26 AM EST
    Tampa..Somebody told me this quote once. "The white man came to my land with his bible. He took the land and left the bible." I like that one.

    Re: The New Conservative Pope (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:24:40 PM EST
    Ernie, only one question remains: Like the clerics of old, are you ignorant, or dishonest?

    The New Conservative Pope | 47 comments (47 topical)