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Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigation

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:29:09 AM EST
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Update: Investigation over, no forcible detention.

Update: Chris Simcox, one of the minutemen, was on tv tonight. He couldn't see anything wrong with making the undocumented man hold up the tee shirt, particularly since he was allowed to keep it.

**********
This didn't take long. Three of the self-styled Minuteman patrolling the Arizona border are under investigaton for their treatment of an undocumented person whom they allegedly forced to pose for the camera with a t-shirt that read:

"Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."

A stepping stone to the abuses of Abu Ghraib? Let's hope the Sheriff stays on top of it.

"We do not have the time nor the patience for anyone attempting to turn this situation into a three ring circus," Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever said in a statement.

Effectiveness of the Minutemen program appears dubious:

Meanwhile, Border Patrol apprehensions of illegal immigrants have dropped notably in the Naco area since civilian volunteers began gathering there. Agency spokesmen credit an increased presence by Mexican authorities south of the border and say it's too soon to tell whether the volunteers are having an impact.

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    Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigation | 43 comments (43 topical)
    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#1)
    by Johnny on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:47:17 AM EST
    Just frathouse pranks...

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:47:34 AM EST
    A stepping stone to the abuses of Abu Ghraib?
    Pre hoc ergo propter hoc? I think its rather more likely to have been encouraged by the the right-wing minimization of Abu Ghraib than to have reached back in time and contributed to it.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:48:47 AM EST
    Does anybody with half a brain think these clowns will stop them. They don't need to speak english to just find somewhere else to cross. The answer is to go after the EMPLOYERS. Put a few dozen of these Fat Cats in Federal Prison for 5 or 10 years, and see what happens

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:53:40 AM EST
    Can you believe how this situation has already spiraled out of control!! Those racist, bloodthirsy vigilantes actually forced an individual breaking our laws (that would make him, uh, a criminal) to pose for a picture HOLDING A T-SHIRT! Now that deserves to be front page news!! Hell, next thing you know it will be Abu Ghraib all over again as those uneducated rednecks will go so far as to force an illegal immigrant pose for a picture holding a pair of underwear (now that would be remnants of the inhumane abuse that occured at Abu Ghraib). Now that would be newsworthy!!

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 10:59:12 AM EST
    I believe the point TL was making was that treating a criminal issues as a game and using amature law enforcement tends to lead to major civil rights abuses (Abu Ghraib for one).

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:13:48 AM EST
    Wearing a t-shirt is abuse? Which part of "illegal" in "illegal immigrant" confuses you? As to their effectiveness, you might note that border crossings by illegals is down about 50%. I'd say that counts as an achievement.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:15:20 AM EST
    ... And your point, BG?... just some good old boys having fun? Where did the T-shirt come from - they ran out and had ONE made at the local Motofoto? Check out this guy and the related stories and realize, 7 days into it they're "starting" with T-shirts. In addition, I could put that pic next to KKK pictures of the GOB's (good ole boys) posing with bound and/or humiliated Af-Ams, many of whom didn't outlive the photo development process. Want to play Wild West? Move to Tombstone. Buy a video game. Want to protect your country from illegal immigration? Form a patrol to report north-of-the-border employers who these immigrants are coming to work for. Minuteman Patrol member

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:22:31 AM EST
    Silly me, James Robertson. I forgot we live in a country where illegal anything = not deserving of basic human rights. Go do some research and find out that south-of-the border Patrols have increased and that apprehensions are down 50% (we don't have good data on illegal immigration rates - they keep moving!!) You want to be a cowboy? Propose a Bill to allow any illegal immigrants to be shot on sight. That may solve all your problems. BTW, I'm imagining Bush being forced to pose for a pic holding a Dean for America T-shirt! (I'm sure he wouldn't consider that abuse) Oh. I'm also sure that the Minuteman ASKED the immigrant to pose for the pic. I'm also SURE (lol) nothing would have happened to him if he refused.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:25:08 AM EST
    Wearing a t-shirt is abuse? Which part of "illegal" in "illegal immigrant" confuses you?
    "Illegal immigrants" are not outlaws in the ancient sense of being outside the protection of the law. While there may be a legal privilege for private arrest that applies in such cases (I'm not familiar with Arizona's citizen's arrest law, if any) it is rather unlikely that it allows harmful or offensive forced contact that is not reasonably necessary to keep them in custody until delivered to the proper legal authorities.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:26:50 AM EST
    As to their effectiveness, you might note that border crossings by illegals is down about 50%.
    And you might note: "Agency spokesmen credit an increased presence by Mexican authorities south of the border".

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:39:22 AM EST
    Gee - You mean he was forced to pose in a T-Shirt? Damn those Minute Men! How cruel can they get! Gesh. mfox - Your analogy is forced. So what if someone is made to pose in a t-shirt? That isn't abuse. No, not by any stretch. And, I am sure nothing would have happened. That is if you agree the Miniute Man has presumpatiuon of innocence. I mean I know he is a US citzen, and thus a representative of all evil, but still... BTW - I haven't checked it yet, but in an earlier post Ed B commented that he imagine himself in boots standing on top of rightwing trolls. Have you censured him? No? Why not if you are so concerned about slipperly slopesand abuse?

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:43:18 AM EST
    And you might note: "Agency spokesmen credit an increased presence by Mexican authorities south of the border". ...and there would be no increased presence by Mexican authorities south of the border if the MM weren't doing their thing. If any of the MM break the law, then charge them. If they don't, leave them alone. mfox, you are exactly right about the employers. And you are certainly free to stop talking and "Form a patrol to report north-of-the-border employers who these immigrants are coming to work for."

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#13)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:43:53 AM EST
    Jim, I think it is abusive to make him pose in a shirt. If it were one of your kids detained for any reason and they had to pose for a shirt you would be outraged. That said, I still take no issue with their presence along the border. It is bringing attention to what many local residents feel is a problem and many residents feel is a financial drain on the state. I would love to see the flow of illegal immigration greatly reduced if only to force employers taking advantage of that labor.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:44:23 AM EST
    12:43 me

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 11:49:41 AM EST
    What people don't understand this is not a country but an empire and anyone who thinks this is a land of freedom is nut's, the guys in the minutemen need to understand that fact, our government needs mexicans and it needs the corruption of mexico. the phony borders are only in place to keep people in line, our political rats in washington need to keep mexicans coming over the borders by the millions for service(slavery) to this empire and stop thinking this is a land of rights/laws, its a land of total coruption and it will become a land of race war. To the people that can see, start to think out of the box and move to a place that you can build with others a land of laws inside this corrupt empire of evil, remember we did it in 1775 against real rats, we can do it once more. think act and live.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 12:39:31 PM EST
    If you want the truth of this matter, see Bryan Barton gets his 15 minutes. This appears to have been a cheap publicity stunt since Barton is making a reality TV show. Beyond that, there's the possibility that he might also have intended to harm the Minuteman Project's reputation. Developing... It's also interesting how willing TL and TChris are to swallow the administration's line when it suits them. There's a reason why crossings and detentions are down, and it's directly related to the Minuteman project and their success.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:03:42 PM EST
    Anybody happen to notice that two of the people recently apprehended over the Mexican border were from Iran and Pakistan? Somehow that didn't seem to make the report...

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#18)
    by desertswine on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:16:55 PM EST
    The Minutemen wouldn't have a platform had the Bush Admin been doing its job in "protecting" the southern border with Mexico. But they're not really serious about that. We're addicted to the cheap labor.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:22:53 PM EST
    If the Bush Administration really protected the border (I mean really protected it), all of you nuts would have a cow. It reminds me of how all of you expect Bush to send troops into Pakistan to go get Bin Laden. All of the sudden you become hawks if you can take a shot a Bush. I wish he would protect the border way more vigorously, but let's not kid each other that you do too....

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:28:12 PM EST
    the minutemen are losers. they all look fat and brought their own lawn chairs. "little man with a gun in his hand" -reknowned 80's punk band THE MINUTEMEN

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:45:05 PM EST
    JL - First, they aren't "kids." Secondly, they are definitely where they shouldn't be. Thirdly, if they feel uncomfortable, sorry. Hundreds of thousands of our lower income workers are working for less, feeling very uncomfortable with their low wages, because of the illegals. et al - Just heard the sherrif has investigated and said no abuse. Sorry, hate to pop your build up to a really good rant about evil americans. mfox - Yes, why don't you start stopping at construction sites and demanding green cards. Go to some of your local hotels and check out the maids and wait staff. Go girl!

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 01:48:20 PM EST
    PPJ - I can't seem to plug in with you and get any issues discussed. Is it me or are you not interested in discussion. Please respond to specific comments in my post instead of hurling vaguely Anon:
    mfox, you are exactly right about the employers. And you are certainly free to stop talking and "Form a patrol to report north-of-the-border employers who these immigrants are coming to work for."
    Actually, I'm not complaining about the immigrants. (Also my boss has an illegal nanny/housekeeper so I'd be releiving myself of a job if I reported him) Oy, the politics of supply and demand. I blame Bush for failing to secure the borders. This should have been done by the Nat'l. Guard on 9/12/01. I also do blame him for not capturing OBL (Clinton and Bush Sr. too. He should have been rotting in a Saudi Jail for the past 20 years). I think the T-shirt incident IS serious. At least if you're a frother who was crying "they're just protesters" last week. Let's jump the gun (Bush has politically already "jumped the shark" IMHO) and assume the Headline is "Illegals gunned down in battle with Minutemen." (or vice versa). Deserved it, right?

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:00:30 PM EST
    The increased presence of law enforcement south of the border is not a response to illegal border crossings it is to arrest a dumb ass minuteman who blunders across the border and picks a fight. So instead of illegals sneaking across the border and risking their lives and the border patrol trying to catch them. You now have increased the number of armed groups on both sides of border and the tension.
    Which, of course, happened almost a century ago as a result of private border vigilanteism in the Southwest, culminating in Pancho Villa's raid and Pershing's Punitive Expedition.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 02:30:26 PM EST
    Shorter justification, Who cares? They're Brown!

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:12:24 PM EST
    PPJ: I am assuming your "kids" are all grown up as was this person, however I would reckon you still call them your children. That said, if it were you and you had to wear a "I am reckless" t-shirt because you were caught speeding, you would be inconsolable. Really PPJ, if there mission is to assist, than do so without badgering. Lastly, being where they should not be does not give anyone the right to do anything other than alert the authorities. Taking a picture with someone with a stupid t-shirt is immature and badgering. 'Look at my illegal". Silly really.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:18:54 PM EST
    Matando Gueros! Estilo Pancho Villa!

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#27)
    by roy on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 03:36:03 PM EST
    How many days of non-violent patrolling, calling cops, and providing medical aid to aliens will it take before Leftists stop equating the Project to an act of violence?

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 05:05:54 PM EST
    JL - Well, the sherrif said no harm no foul. So I guess our discussion is moot. My point remains. Too many are coming, causing too many problems, to too many Americans. It is a shame that our BP is not better funded and staffed. mfox - Issues? Discuss? Well, I said your analogy was wrong, that it wasn't abuse and invited you to check out business locations for illegals. I ignored your Bush comment and asked if you were willing to give the Minute Man assumpation of innocence. Now you haven't defended the analogy, or pursued the abuse charge, and disregarded the question about innocence. So, who's not discussing? As for your boss, do what you think is right.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:23:14 PM EST
    The companies that have shipped the jobs to Mexico to take advantage of cheap labor should pay those folks a decent wage. Then they wouldn't be so inclined to take so many risks to get here, to earn good money for an honest day's work. Of course, the alternative would be to build a concrete and steel wall and man it with soldiers to stop anyone from coming in or leaving. Worked for China and East Germany, didn't it?

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#30)
    by cp on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 06:55:32 PM EST
    oh ppj and your "stupid as they wanna be" buds, you can't even read simple english now? the article said only that apprehensions are down, period. it said nothing about illegal crossings being down. nor, did it allude to that. they might well be, but no one officially made that statement, so don't be so obviously idiotic, you wear it too well. geez, didn't even take a week. my bet, next thing we hear about is an "accidental" shooting. you know, they was jes havin' themselves some fun, what's all the fuss and thunder about? this is what usually happens when you put a bunch of untrained amatuers in pretty much any situation. add guns and basic stupidity, you have a problem looking for a place to happen.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 07:21:04 PM EST
    PPJ: Of course you do not address the issue of someone making you wear a shirt for speeding, but that is above you. Again, as i have said from the beginning, I think this is a legitimate form of protest and as long as they are breaking no laws, let them patrol and volunteer their time. I would like to see 100 billion moved from the failed drug war to address the border situation.``Or 100 billion from defense shifted to border patrol. We don't need star wars, we need need border protection and human rights protection for the illegals that are working for peanuts in the slaughter houses and strawberry fields. Corporations are the most guilty as far as i am concerned. Taking advantage of cheap labor to fatten their fat asses.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:01:26 PM EST
    cp - Hey, boy. I haven't commented about any articles. Your vision ok?? JL - Sorry, didn't mean to disappoint. I am here to serve. Would I like it? No. Would it be abuse? No. And I agree re not enough resouces. But, that still doesn't say the illegals are right, just that we understand why they are coming. Same was as Willy Sutton said about robbing banks. That's where the money is. How about Mexico trying to reform itself? Business? Big fines and jail time. Let's do it.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#33)
    by Adept Havelock on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 08:21:15 PM EST
    Business? Big fines and jail time.
    Great idea PPJ. How do you get it past the big biz lobby which has a chokehold on both parties and the media?

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#34)
    by cp on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:03:51 PM EST
    ppj, your obliviousness is astonishing. the "article" is right here. unless, you didn't even bother to read the post, before running off at the mouth. that wouldn't at all surprise me, since most of your comments on this board have a distinct disconnect to the issue actually at hand.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 07, 2005 at 09:46:05 PM EST
    Willie Sutton didn't say that about robbing banks; it was written about him -- but now all of us who've heard of him at all, know what ain't so. (It's not that he had no gift of gab, either; he actually did say "You can't rob a bank on charm and personality," which has a certain alarm-bell ring to it.) And he didn't use "Willie" either; he went by Bill. OK, I know no one cares, and I don't know why anyone should. But I do anyway. Ghosts should stick up for each other. ("Stick up." Get it?)

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:04:44 AM EST
    The next move by bush is called the North American Free and Opened Borders, With a new idea for all of you, and a new bill of non rights with a new constitution, you will love it.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 05:32:11 AM EST
    cp - My point was that I had not commented on the number of apprehensions. What's your problem, cp? My sole point was that the Minute Men have the right to be there, and I didn't see any abuse. You don't like it? Sorry about that. Ghost - I learn something every day. I thought that was a quote. Saddens me. Kinda like getting the scoop on Santa.. But I do like the other one. Of course those of us who remember the S&L crisis know differently.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:42:02 AM EST
    The article didn't mention if these particular minutemen knuckleheads were armed. If they were, I feel it is abuse. It is most difficult to tell the minutemen where to stick their t-shirt when you are looking down the barrel of a gun.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 07:26:47 AM EST
    For a different "take" on the rape of the S&Ls (and an interesting evening's reading if you like mysteries and "thrillers"), check out Thomas Perry's novel Dance for the Dead. Midway through, one of the characters walks through the whole thing in a few pages, from the point of view of an intelligent looter. For some reason it reminds me slightly of part of the backstory in Count Zero, as wildly different as the two books are. -- Dog On A Tangent To A Tangent

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 07:44:15 AM EST
    Personally, I think the T-shirt idea is hilarious. I don't see what all the hubbub is about.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:22:51 PM EST
    Oh, yeah, for all of you who say to kill the gueros (Brujo, maybe??) you had better realize that all those people are sneaking into this country to be WITH the gueros. If you killed them, this would be Mexico and everyone would have to sneak into Canada. You would freeze you Pancho Villa- loving behind off.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:46:04 PM EST
    I thought it was hilarious. I would wear it.

    Re: Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigatio (none / 0) (#43)
    by David on Fri Apr 15, 2005 at 07:55:33 PM EST
    i think that what these people are doing is awesome. Its about time that these illegal criminals are stopped. Now if we can just get the government to take a few notes, we will be ready to go

    Border Patrolling Minutemen Under Investigation | 43 comments (43 topical)