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Posse Gathers in AZ

by TChris

The idea of rounding up a posse to pursue the bad guys is a popular theme in movies about the wild west, but the modern analog can be found in Arizona, where armed volunteers, recruited by a website, intend to patrol the San Pedro Valley in search of "illegal activity." Calling themselves the Minuteman Project, the volunteers plan to rally in Tombstone before starting their month-long endeavor. They say they'll report their observations to the Border Patrol, and the volunteers have been instructed not to shoot anyone, even if they come under fire. The risk, however, is that some volunteers will decide to take the law into their own hands, bringing a return of "vigilante justice" to Arizona.

[L]aw enforcement officials and human rights advocates are worried about the potential for bloodshed. Critics contend the project may attract vigilantes. At least one white supremacist group has mentioned the project on its Web site.

Given the risk that a whacko or two will join the 800 to 1,000 volunteers that the project expects, the Border Patrol doesn't appreciate the "help" that the untrained volunteers are offering. If the volunteers fear that the Border Patrol isn't doing its job, they should seek a political solution. Running around the desert with guns isn't a productive response.

Update: (TL) David Neiwert explains why this has tragedy and disaster written all over it.

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  • Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 10:56:42 AM EST
    I heard about these nuts a while back. I think the local sheriff and mayor were completely opposed because quite a few of them had rap sheets or were being arrested for taking the law into thier own hands a little too vigourously.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:14:50 AM EST
    At least one white supremacist group has mentioned the project on its Web site And, at least one left-leaning group has mentioned the project on its Web site. (This site!) Can we all agree that such blatant “yellow journalism” is ridiculous. I mean, the article doesn’t even say it was a favorable mention. If Joe McCarthy were alive today, he would be working for the left.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:17:11 AM EST
    Brought this up yesterday on the open thread with regard to the specific stance the ACLU seems to be taking on this. I don't doubt that some less than well meaning people will find their way into this group, but I don't see this as a good reason to oppose what they are trying to do. If we accept the argument "If the volunteers fear that the Border Patrol isn't doing its job, they should seek a political solution" here, why not elsewhere? Will TalkLeft also be commenting on the inappropriateness of holding rallies and "demonstrations" against the administrations policies? After all, we live in a democracy and there are much better ways of making oneself heard than blocking intersections and trashing the local Starbucks. These people are trying to draw attention to a serious problem, whether you approve of their actions or not. If they were taking action on one of your pet issues, would you be so quick to accept law enforcement's position on them?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:36:16 AM EST
    justpaul comments. After all, we live in a democracy and there are much better ways of making oneself heard than blocking intersections and trashing the local Starbucks. The left just lost one of their major forms of protest – hunger strikes. Now everyone knows that it is really a pleasant experience and another way to get high.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:49:55 AM EST
    It's their right to roam the desert, whatever floats your boat. If they get violent, charge them with a crime...if not, let them be.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:55:10 AM EST
    Agreed justpaul...Freedom applies to all. Soldier..classless. She died today...give your rhetoric a rest. The mysterious "left" you mention had nothing to do with it. Take your beef up with her husband.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:56:00 AM EST
    JustPaul, Soldier, The idea is not without some merit, but go to the Minuteman Project's website then come back and give me a general description of their target market and tell me someone isn't going to end up dead. A friend of mine commented last night that these yahoos won't be any match for the human coyotes and drug-smuggling elements and are as or more likely to end up face down in the desert than immigrants. What do they do then, call the cops? Also, calling this a demonstration seems a bit disingenuous unless they're standing at the border holding signs. Are you saying that it's okay if we're calling it a demonstration but not if it's a posse? Think. What's the best outcome of this experiment? What's the worst? Is it worth the risk in a cost/benefit sense? Remember the knights of the White Camelia (unbelievably, wckkkk.com) started out as a citizen's group protecting the virtue of the Southern White Woman during reconstruction (and even today as seen above!) Are they protesters??

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:10:19 PM EST
    Let me get this straight . . . federal officials are worried that these Minute Men might attract some bad apples? Gosh, I'm glad the feds are on to these people, since we all know that the feds do NOT TOLERATE bad apples or kooks working for them . . . oh, except those bad apples at Abu Gharaib . . . and those guys at Guantanamo . . . and, I almost forgot, those mean guys who send prisoners to other countries for torture . . . oh, I almost left out that Attorney General guy who likes torture . . .

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:13:40 PM EST
    The volunteers are not armed, but the mexican people coming over the borders are armed, this is the reason why "we the people" have a government is it? but it is the reason why we will have an armed rebellion soon against an insane government, can i ask why the peoples of mexico are not working to help remove that drug dealing government? why the people of mexico are not making a government of the people and for the people? can i ask why the political lawyers need millions of mexican's nationals here in our non nation?. Can it be for the ideals of aztlan? and the ideals of murderous government of total evil? The rights of people are not based on race in the ideals of freedom for all, but in mexico it is a race base nation, the betrayal of the people of mexico by its own government is well known to any who can still see. stop the brainwashing of a people, the rights of the non-armed people to protest the ideals of recomnquista is a right of any sane Culture of right against wrong. Bush and fox are part of the same one world oligarchies and not of any people but the ideals of evil and mass murder. long live both cultures of Mexico and the USA.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:18:21 PM EST
    I like this unless of course they start pulling people over on the expressway for speeding because the state police are not catching every speeder. Or detaining people because they litter. Or detaining jaywalkers. Or detaining stop sign blowers. Or town ordinance violators (grass is too long). Or pulling over those with a burnt out tail light. Or detaining those have fatty foods in their shopping carts who are obviously overweight because obesity costs this country billions every year. Aside from that, let em roam.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:18:29 PM EST
    You’re right, kdog, that was in bad taste. The comment wasn’t directed at her, but at all those trying to convince us that starvation is pleasant. That’s why so many people use it to commit suicide. Ulp, there I go, again.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:37:34 PM EST
    I do not in anyway support this group or their aims. I just think the right to freely assemble is just that. And the right to bear arms is just that. Our rights. The moment they try to capture a border-crosser, or god forbid shoot at one, arrest and try them for attempted kidnapping or attempted murder. But if all they want to do is roam the desert and watch what's going on, have a ball. I still say they are better off patrolling the manicured lawns of suburbia, or the kitchen of the local restaurant, but that is just my humble opinion.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:41:56 PM EST
    I think it is an excellent idea. And the point seems to be getting across in DC. 500 new agents to patrol Arizona border.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:48:14 PM EST
    soldier, I am sorry i missed all the medical professionals coming out and declaring it starvation, could you provide links from accredited doctors that classified it as starvation? I am with you kdog, if they want to ride around and report they have that right, it is when "detaining" gets involved that I get squeamish. I ain't thrilled about the guns either but as long as it is within the law, then let em do it.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:50:33 PM EST
    It's their right to roam the desert, whatever floats your boat. If they get violent, charge them with a crime...if not, let them be. Kdog is on the money here. If they're not breaking any laws, I'm all for it. They can provide a valuable service here as far as I'm concerned.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:56:30 PM EST
    TChris- While I agree that the Minuteman Project is a bad idea, I would dispute that it won't be productive, at least in that section of the Border.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:01:57 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, Starvation is my word. By the way, do you always call dogs, Canis familiaris?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:08:18 PM EST
    No, i call them dogs because the despite the etymology of the word and the historical significance latin played in the development of the english language, i prefer to use the modern term. That said, this happens 1000 times a day, go pick a hospital and protest, I am quite certain that at least once a week you will find families that are choosing to remove feeding tubes. You can then start a website with Randall Terry to help prevent the auscwitzing of america. You can start with Nancy Reagan and Tom DeLay.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:33:17 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, for the most park, I stayed completely out of this debate. I am not denying it is a common practice. I am denying that it is a pleasant experience, like the New York Times claimed. For the last eight years, my sister has been a supervisor in hospice at Barnes-Jewish in St. Louis, supposedly one of the top ten hospitals in the nation. She tells me it isn’t pleasant. She complains about some of the things doctors tell the families, such as that they are not in pain, etc. But she says, she has NEVER had a doctor tell anyone that it was pleasant. By the way, I’m an atheist. You can start the web site with Randall Terry.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:36:55 PM EST
    Soldier, Starving has to be experienced to cause suffering. I can assure you based on Terri's medical diagnosis that there is no way she could have had any experience of this as the part of her brain that experiences hunger (or any discomfort) does not exist as a functioning organ. So, you don't believe in mercy killing at all? If a comrade-in-arms begged you to shoot him as he lay critically injured with no way for you to rescue him on the battlefield - rather than let him fall into enemy hands you would "err on the side of life" and leave him there alive to take his chances as a prisoner? You could look him in the eye if, by chance he survived unhappily and defend your decision to deny his request on Moral Grounds?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:39:07 PM EST
    Soldier, happy to hear you are an atheist, sorry to hear you are lacking in scientific knowledge. Terry, like you believe that it was starvation, lie down with dogs you begin to smell a bit well, doggish. Back to the issue of this thread please.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:40:18 PM EST
    Soldier, just read your sister-hospice post. I agree that the "experience" is not pleasant. Of course - not everyone euthanized is a vegetable. What is her position on euthanizing in general?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:56:08 PM EST
    Mfox, to be honest, I don’t quite know. She is really my former sister-in-law. My brother is dead and she has re-married. I know she believes in passive euthanasia and I know she believes in assisted suicide, but I don’t believe we ever discussed active euthanasia. But, from talking to her, I think she determines what she thinks in appropriate, on a case-by-case basis. Part of her job is to guide families into whatever decision is best for them.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:09:42 PM EST
    mfox, you have created quite a conundrum. I refuse to kill someone, because I believe there is a chance he might survive. He does survive. And then I am going to feel guilty, because I was right. And he is going to chastise me, because I didn’t kill him. Hmmmmmm? Let me think about that. And your post about Terri not being able to feel pain, proves my point. She couldn’t feel pleasure, either!

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:20:03 PM EST
    If the volunteers fear that the Border Patrol isn't doing its job, they should seek a political solution.
    Does anyone think the Border Patrol is doing their job?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:28:16 PM EST
    To expand on mfox's apt metaphor, maybe some xenophobes can do an updated version of "Birth of a Nation" about how crypto-racist vigilantes are the True Protectors of White Murka. How DARE these pieces of garbage steal a name similar to one of the finest punk bands ever!!!

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    I most sincerely disagree with Tchris on this one. First of all I hate it when I see anyone demean a person or groups of people for trying to do their duty. What duty? Defense of self & community & country & state. It can't be totally abrogated to the govenment - even if practically possible it'd be morally wrong. These people are doing what they can to try to make themselves (& us) safe. Disparaging them for it is classless, even if done by implication. Now what they're doing is showing up to drop a dime on illegal immigrants. Is that any different than a few people walkin their nieghborhood & dialing 911 when they see a car thief doing his thing? But even if they were detaining illegal immigrants that'd still be okay. In most states a citizen has the legal authority to make arrests for certain crimes. Usually it's felonies or violent misdemeanors. Again this is part of the duty of every person in the u.S. Calling them "untrained" or implying "vigalantism" is an insult to every person in the u.S. who has every actively done something to provide for their security or liberty. Bush called them "vigalantes". So did a latino gang that's reputed to be in touch with Al-Quaida. Do you really wish to stoop to those levels, even merely by implication? As for relying on the political process - I've heard that before. Matter of fact this fellow name of Sam Adams had a bit to say about people voicing those same thoughts. As did Patrick Henry & a few others. & look - there's serious risk that one of those illegal immigrants isn't just a poor Mexican trying to find work. There's the chance that it'll be a guy form the middle east who thought OBL had the right idea but didn't take it far enough & wants to do it right this time. Running around the dessert with uns is a perfectly good & most appropriate response to that possibility, just as running around D.C. with guns would be an approiate response to the high crime rate there. People must rely on themselves for their own defense. The government can't & often times won't be there. That's life. Advising supplication to the government because they're not fufilling their responsibilities or absolving you from yours isn't an effective strategy unless you enjoy being pitied. These people should be lauded for what they're doing, not subject to implied insults & calls for their arrest if they detain someone (as would be their duty to do). Oh, for those of you who think that the good citizens of Arizona who volunteer for this will be outmatched by the drug & people smugglers if it comes down to a confrontation, ya'll don't know any of these people do you? A lot are ex-military or police & the rest are people who understand their role in society - not as sheep to be led about by a (hopefully_ benevolent government, but as people who must take responsibility for their own actions. If anything happens I'd law my money on my countrymen, not the coyotes or gangs. (Before ya'll start I doubt seriously than anyone in the group will step outside the law. There's a big differenc being predatory violence & protective violence & saying they'd be good at one does not mean they'd be inclined towards the other). Tchris & everyone else - you owe these people & in fact every citizen of every state an apology for the manner in which you spoke of them. You did not merely disparage these fine folks in Az, but every person, military or civilian, who has ever acted in defense of his/her home.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:48:36 PM EST
    Allowing armed vigilantes to roam the desert is OK with some of you? It isn't OK with the border patrol agents, who will be put in GRAVE danger by it, and any amount of innocent civilians as well. And they better not run up against the Mexican authorities, because those guys take a dim view. Soldier apparently has an endless supply of postings -- a new hero. Yellow journalism? A white supremacist group, like the ones doing this vigilantism, is not the friend of democracy and freedom. They are RACISTS, engaged in the practices of HATRED. I guess that slipped your attention span, Sold. Euthanasia is in practice all across the country. Mostly, it is the elderly, THEMSELVES failing to eat. It is, in fact, important to feed the elderly, to keep their caloric levels high, or else lose them. But millions pass away from lack of attention to their nutritional needs, just as many die from the 'euthanasia' of not putting in shower bars and handrails, so they break their hips, and perish soon after. The poor, lamented, Terri Schiavo? What about the poor immigrant worker trying to feed their child by crossing a border to get a job? Nope, better to allow untrained, unregulated nutjobs to threaten to blow her and her child away. Then it will be just like Iraq, and the racists can all rejoice.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:52:44 PM EST
    True, a crazy man can stand in the intersection and direct traffic, but this does not make him a cop. "lauded for what they're doing"? Please! They ARE essentially a para-military group. Don't do me any favors, Clem.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:00:46 PM EST
    Please define vigalantes & then explain how the Minuteman Project falls under that definition. & may I remind you that a "para-military group" started the war for independence of this country. "para-military groups" also drove off the klan on numerous occassions as well as numerous other things the government couldn't or wouldn't handle. Besides, if you're between the ages of 17 & 45 & not in the military you are, by u.S. law a member of a paramilitary group. It's called the militia. See USC 10 Sec 311 for the details.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:09:30 PM EST
    The facts are that Bush has approved allowing Mexican semi-trucks to drive anywhere in the US. He has also approved a plan to inspect TWO PERCENT of those vehicles. Immigrants on foot are not hauling nukes or drugs across the border. The NINETY-EIGHT PERCENT of these semi-trucks that aren't being inspected could be hauling ANYTHING. Why don't those vigilantes sign up to help inspect trucks? Oops, can't carry their guns around and smell each others' sweat, that way. Publicola, John Adams would laugh so hard in your face you would freeze solid.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:17:02 PM EST
    "Vigilante" - One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands. Does that help, Publicola? The KKK thought they were vigilantes too. Hey, I work on Wall Street, maybe I should just stalk around offices, armed, falsely imprisoning people until they can PROVE that they aren't committing white collar crime. Yeah, that's it! We can all decide which laws really need to be enforced based on our own personal prejudices! That's what a vigilante is - so go play paintball, and reserve law enforcement for people who have SWORN to OBEY AND enforce the law.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:26:38 PM EST
    Yes, let's all laud the wisdom of mob rule and all the good it has brought us. I'm so sick of people envoking patriotism as an excuse for stupid behavior.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:28:26 PM EST
    Paul, the illegal immigrants on foot could haul any number of things that would scare you. & they aren't capable of carrying drugs? That's a new one. So please tell me why JA would laugh in my face? PJB, since it is legal for people in almost all of the state to make arrests &/or do other things typically associated with cops, then would you say that those acting legally in enforcing laws are vigalantes as well? & it's somewhat of a misnomer to use the phrase "taking the law into their own hands" or a variant in a republic with democractically elected reps. By the people, of the people for the people right? If we are the government then we already have the law in our hands. no need to take it. but vigalante, as definied by merriam webster is not someone who merely enforces a law, but one who acts as enforcer, judge & jury. Someone who makes an arrest, passing judgement & then executes a punishment would be a vigalante. Now I've seen nothing except the hyperbole of people upset that everyone is not a shelpless, subserviant & ineffectual as they are to indicate that any border patrol group (of which there are several) has any intentions or history of doing anything other than detaining an illegal immigrant while they wait for the border patrol to show up. Wall street though. That explains it. You're in a city where the Right to Arms is all but outright denied & the culture is one of people who are too eager to believe that it's the cops jobs, not their own, to secure their defense. Odd that you'd admonish me to leave things to people who are sworn to obey the law when you live in a city that's whole government has a flagrant disregard for a constitutionally enumerated Right.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:31:30 PM EST
    I miss the lawless gunplay of the pre-Gulliani era.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#36)
    by roy on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 03:47:36 PM EST
    I'm not entirely sold on the project's virtue, but I'm willing to play Redneck's Advocate. If a crime is being commited, aren't you supposed to take some action to stop it? At least call the cops, which is what the Minutement plan to do? They're basically planning to just go check out what's up, and call the cops. It's more like checking out a suspicious noise than it is like an act of violence. As for going armed, well, in that part of the country some people carry guns just running daily errands. Usually without murdering anybody. And, personally, I carry a gun when I check out a suspicious noise (in Texas, which is like Arizon with more grass).

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:25:24 PM EST
    The only thing that I would add to this discussion, is: Many of these lands in which illegals enter into, are Private Properties. These lands are not empty wastelad, they are someone elses' Ranches. How would you like for strangers to cut accross your backyard, on their way to wherever they are going? Don't know about you but if all of sudden I get a steady stream of Trespassers into my property, I'd be hopping mad as well. Though there is an element of Racism here, there is also an issue of Property Rights as well.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:37:14 PM EST
    "Posted by Publicola: "the illegal immigrants on foot could haul any number of things that would scare you. & they aren't capable of carrying drugs?" Why would drug smugglers use people walking, when they have 2 chances in 100 that their semitruck loaded with twenty tons of cocaine is going to sail right through with a nod? It's a matter of scale, or didn't they teach you about proportion when they taught you to spread hatred of immigrants? "So please tell me why JA would laugh in my face?" For stealing his name while trying to blow this smoke about the Continental Army being just like the vigilantes who want to confront unarmed poor people in the desert and threaten them with guns and racism.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:38:07 PM EST
    ISN'T "going to sail through." Sorry.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:43:14 PM EST
    "Though there is an element of Racism here, there is also an issue of Property Rights as well." Yeah, Boq, get right on that SEVEN BILLION DOLLARS that the gov't owes the tribes for forcing them to allow grazers and miners to trespass on their land, poisoning their water, destroying their wildlife. Property rights? A lot of that land on the border belongs to INDIANS. Which would they like more: Poor people like them crossing their land, like they have done since the beginning of human life in the Southwest. Armed racists tearing up their roads in SUVs shooting their sheep for fun, running over their dogs, and raising clouds of dust for miles? Not much of a choice to make. And the indians would like their share in the corporate welfare pittance paid for their use of THEIR lands. I'm sure an email to Bill O'Reilly will get him RIGHT ON THAT, Boq. Get cracking.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 04:48:30 PM EST
    It appears to me that a few people on this board are afraid that the Minutemen may be successful and destroy their fantasy that all illegal immigrants are kindly, old men, just trying to feed their families. Yes Paul, I do have an endless supply of posts. I assumed you did, too. Otherwise, you would just post the good ones. The only racists I see, are the ones who are willing to allow illegal immigrants to be mistreated and abused, so the racists can have cheap vegtables and then justify it by calling them poor immigrant workers.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:07:18 PM EST
    Paul, Any of the Adams boys would be quick to point out that the shooting war was started by people you'd call vigalantes. It was militia, not the continental army that got the ball rolling. & please back up those allegations of racism. I know it takes all the fun out of it but show me where any border patrol group has displayed a racial motive in their activities. It just so happens that the border in question involes Mexico, which necessarily entails having a large portion of the illegal immigrants be Mexican. (But last I heard up to 30% were not mexican) Would you also imply that the cops in Harlem are racist because they just happen to arrest black people in a predominately black neigborhood? & it's not "poor immigrants" they're confronting. Hell, the Minuteman Project isn't planning on confronting anyone. They're watching & calling the cops when they see anyone crossing the border illegally. But there is some risk involved - not form the "poor immigrants" but from A: the people who charge usurous fees to guide the illegals immigrants across the border B: the drug smugglers who do a lot of business across the border & C: the real racists in this picture - that'd be MS-13 & other pro-atzlan/anti u.S. gangs that have been threatening violent attacks on anyone who dares try to enforce the law. as for land belonging to Native Americans - we treated them badly & haven't fully mde it up to them, but that's the way the world works. You have a solution though? If I recall L.A. wasn't unihabited over the past few thousand years. if you feel that strongly about it then why don't you give your land back then encourage others to do the same. But tell ya what - show many anything that any of the founders wrote that would back up your idea that citizens have no place in protecting themselves & their communities. Anything. Otherwise I'll have to stand by my first notion that any Adams boy worth his salt would have taken a very dim view of your attitude.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:40:31 PM EST
    Yes Paulie, I do agree that there is a veiled hatred against Mexicans shared amongst many in the Minuteman movement. But where you loose me is your ramble on American Aborigenes. If they have a beef, they better take it to the Dept of Interior. But that's off point from this thread. My question to you is this: Are you a home owner? If the answer is yes, then you own property. Doesn't a property owner have the ultimate right to let into or not, anyone that they please? Tell me Paulie do you own a home, or do you rent?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:57:01 PM EST
    Not surprised that Southern AZ residents are going to lose some sleep and wander the desert...who else should they turn to? Problem is now more than a decade old. AZ Gov (a Demo) blames the Feds and the Feds do nothing. Ranchers are sick of their livestock (as in "livelihood") being let out thru gates, and citizens are sick of day-long waiting periods in emergency rooms that they support via taxes. Somebody here in AZ has a sense of humor...called these guys "undocumented border agents."

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:07:53 PM EST
    Forgot to mention...Minutemen will not be operating near tribal land...nearest tribal land is Tohono O'odham which is between Lukeville and Sasabe on the border (west of Tucson). Minutemen are focusing south of Bisbee, near the border of Santa Cruz and Cochise county.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#46)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:49:20 PM EST
    Actually, the Minuteman op is a political solution, or an attempt. Like sit-ins and demonstrations during the civil rights era, it's an attempt to embarrass the federal government into getting involved. Back then it was to get Washington to send the FBI, federal marshalls, and from time to time, paratroopers. Same here.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:49:24 PM EST
    Does anyone think the Border Patrol is doing their job? Generally speaking, the BP is doing their job the best they can. The problem is in Washington. Those who dislike the concept of the Minuteman Project should go there and protest. They can do so alongside the ACLU, anti-American racial demagogues, the Mexican government, and... President Bush.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:55:27 PM EST
    Well said Boquisucio, people here do not understand that the mexican oligarchies have been using the people of mexico for 150 years. The fact is if the people of mexico would act like real people who really love the land of its fathers if would remove the fox rats from earth. the guys at the border are in fact hated by both the right and the left which makes me think the guys doing the job of watching the borders are ok by me! and to the mexican loving oligarchies guys why don't you join bin laden and help with the attack on this country? after all tolerance and work is not what you guys are all about, Read..MEcha..see: Grijalve hate list of non mexicans, read aztlan hate for all non hispanics and under stand what real evil is. read the ideals of evil at Mecha about the myth of aztlan and the hate it has for you.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:06:00 AM EST
    "Posted by Boquisucio: "I do agree that there is a veiled hatred against Mexicans shared amongst many in the Minuteman movement. Yeah, duh. That the imbeciles above pretend there isn't is HILARIOUS. "But where you loose me is your ramble on American Aborigenes." Aka PROPERTY OWNERS, if any treaty was ever upheld. None ever were. Why is that? " If they have a beef, they better take it to the Dept of Interior." Yeah, which is why the judge is threatening to arrest Gale Norton. You feel so strongly about property rights, why don't any of your Rs raise a finger for the indians rights? No, not that finger. "Doesn't a property owner have the ultimate right to let into or not, anyone that they please?" The Interior Dept. FORCES Indians to allow corporate ranchers and miners on their land. Where have you been? They pay them pennies on the dollar for what those services are worth -- correction, they DON'T pay them pennies. They "lost" the $7 billion, but there's $300 billion to spend blowing up innocent people in Iraq and cutting checks to the rich.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 04:41:51 AM EST
    Again Paulie - your only retort to my points are incoherent rambles 'bout off the point inanities. Guess that you won't mind if I bring my friends to walk all over your backyard, wouldn't you?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 04:54:33 AM EST
    FD - Having been on both sides of the border, I am well aware of racial intolerance by extremist on their respective side of their border. I won't gloss over and generalize all Minutmen as racists; nor would I pigeon hole all Mexicans with the same stroke. Though real, the issue of racism on the side of the Minutemen, to me is secondary to that Property Rights. A right that takes precedence and is enshrined into our core values here in the US. Thanks for the kind words.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:48:44 AM EST
    Dick, I agree with ya.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:58:06 AM EST
    Soldier, though it was a while back, I should apologize for my example which was, I admit, a stretch and not really related to the thread. We can talk about euthanasia some other time! To clarify several issues, At the top of the Minuteman Project's website there is a quote by Sam Adams. The analogy is lost on me, however, unless the MP is planning to take up arms against the existing government and start a new government. I don't recall the founding fathers suggesting that the Continental army stake out Boston Harbor to protect it from immigrants. In addition, the MP's website home page contains the following in their shpiel:
    Accordingly, the men and women volunteering for this mission are those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more "toys" to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens. Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot." The result: political, economic and social mayhem.
    I don't see anything there about Property Rights or a call to arms directed at the people who's property rights are being violated. I do, however, see rhetoric that has a decidedly Facist and Racist appeal. While I agree that they have the right to do anything within the law, I must say that I have a hard time seeing respondents to the above rhetoric making a phone call as they see illegals disappearing in the desert and not escalating their intervention. BTW, has anyone promised to respond to said phone calls? Who are they going to call? 911? the Border Patrol (who might just say thanks and hang up), or their MP HQ to send backup in kind? The moral argument, however, is a bit sticky. I have to honestly say that a true comparison would be inner-city residents in impovershed neighborhoods forming citizen's patrols, routing crack-houses, etc. Of course this would be a group of people taking their neighborhood back from people similar to themselves with the racist factor generally a non-issue as said lawbreakers probably grew up in the neighborhood. Now if Bed-Stuy (sp?) formed a citizens patrol to "clean up" Harlem and decended upon Harlem armed and angry things could get dicey. Don't know the answer, but morally feel that trying to get into America shouldn't carry a death sentence per se. Peter James Bond - LOL - I'm all for forming a citizen's posse on Wall Street! You could arm "good" brokers with, say, Roth IRA's?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:27:00 AM EST
    AZ Gov (a Demo) blames the Feds and the Feds do nothing.
    The Feds are the source of the AZ problem, since the increases in traffic there and in the more easterly desert portions of Southern CA are due almost entirely to the massive ramp up of border security in the more western part of the CA/Mexico border.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:32:28 AM EST
    Actually, the Minuteman op is a political solution, or an attempt. Like sit-ins and demonstrations during the civil rights era, it's an attempt to embarrass the federal government into getting involved.
    Actually, I think its more akin to and based on the same kind of ideology as the border vigilanteism in the southwest that led to a string of escalating violent incidents and eventually to Pancho Villa's raid on Columbus, NM and Pershing's Punitive Expedition in retaliation.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#56)
    by roy on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:44:09 AM EST
    Weren't these guys supposed to start their thing today? I haven't heard anything about 'em. Do I detect a whiff of genuinely funny April Foolery?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:57:35 PM EST
    I dunno Roy. Their website says they're not taking any more volunteers over the web, but you must actually go to AZ and sign up in person (and show an ID). Sort of debunks the whole neighbors defending their privat property theory, doncha think?

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 09:05:26 PM EST
    I live on the US-Mexico border. We don't need or want a bunch of wackos showing up on the border with weapons. For those who think these people are simply going to call the Border Patrol when they spot someone they think is an undocumented Mexican, I have a picture I copied off one of their websites of several of them holding a Mexican man on the ground at gunpoint. No one minded undocumented Mexicans when they worked their cattle, picked their food, built their houses, cleaned, and cared for their children, all for one or two dollars an hour.

    Re: Posse Gathers in AZ (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 04, 2005 at 03:02:11 PM EST
    Paul in LA LA land... What about the poor immigrant worker trying to feed their child by crossing a border to get a job? I say you help out & give them yours!