home

Arresting Lap Dancers

By TChris, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 10:35:00 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

by TChris

Honolulu is apparently such a crime-free city that undercover police officers have time to get lap dances. Mary Ann Keawe was arrested for prostitution (defined as an exchange of money for sexual contact, even through clothing) 20 days after she performed a lap dance on an undercover cop.

The Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that the delay resulted in an illegal arrest, because the police had ample time to obtain an arrest warrant. The ruling doesn't help Keawe, because the court held that her remedy wasn't dismissal of the charge, but suppression of any evidence obtained as a result of the arrest. Since the evidence (the officer's account of what he saw and felt during the dance) was gathered before the arrest, there was nothing to suppress.

"I find that disturbing, that there is no remedy (for the illegal arrest)," said Earle Partington, who filed a brief on the case with the Supreme Court on behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Even more disturbing is the waste of resources that Honolulu devoted to the arrest and prosecution of lap dancers. Keawe's attorney estimates that at least 200 similar prosecutions have been on hold, awaiting the decision in Keawe's case.

< 'Brooklyn 7' Invites Public to Trial | Peterson Sentenced to Death >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Arresting Lap Dancers | 63 comments (63 topical)
    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 11:01:13 AM EST
    I say we all fly down to Hawaii, and get us some lap dances in protest. Who's with me?

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#2)
    by Primus on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 11:02:14 AM EST
    As a longtime Hawaii resident (born-and-raised, and now living on Maui), there's actually a very sizeable problem with such bars and real prostitution, as well as gambling, organized crime and drugs. Been going on for decades. So such comments as "Even more disturbing is the waste of resources that Honolulu devoted to the arrest and prosecution of lap dancers." are really just self-serving.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 11:07:48 AM EST
    Hawaii has come a long way baby from the hedonistic society Capt. Cook encountered. I wonder if the Native Hawaiians are thinking what we have done to thier culture. Free love gone forever

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 11:12:33 AM EST
    Isn't an illegal arrest generally a "false imprisonment" actionable in tort. Where the arrest hasn't produced anything prejudicial to the trial -- as seems to be the criminal court's holding here -- that would seem to be the proper avenue for a remedy, both from a legal and policy perspective, since holding the illegal arrestor personally accountable creates the strongest possible disincentive to others to commit similar illegal arrests, whereas providing some negation of the criminal charges really doesn't. This is, of course, different where the illegal action does prejudice the criminal process.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 11:20:39 AM EST
    I was in Honolulu just 2 days ago and find this very amusing...... as my friend & I strolled along the shops next to Waikiki beach and witnessed numerous hookers working out in the open virtually ignored by police.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#6)
    by Primus on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:32:46 PM EST
    Re: B.B., A significant portion of those "hookers" you saw are actually vice cops. Waikiki's about the worst place to try to pick up a hooker. :)

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:39:43 PM EST
    I think I want to be an undercover cop now. Forget gang infiltration, just sign me up for the lap-dancer bustings.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#8)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:43:06 PM EST
    No new law here, in California a probable cause arrest must be made within a reasonable amount after the probable cause has been developed or there must be a warrant. The remedy is the same, anything gathered as a result of an illegal arrest is inadmissible. Do you think it should be otherwise? Illegal arrest in this case is the equivalent of a procedural error, not illegal conduct by law enforcement.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:46:40 PM EST
    CMDicely, Well you can sue anyone for anything, the objective being to win your suit. Police would have limited immunity in this case as long as there wasn't an intentional misuse of authority. At least that's my belief based on my experience.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#10)
    by TChris on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:47:46 PM EST
    Patrick, the Constitution is "the law," just as a statute is "the law." When the police violate the Constitution, they are indeed engaged in "illegal conduct."

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:51:23 PM EST
    we've even turned the islanders into prissy puritans. fantastic. someone beer me. stat!

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:54:36 PM EST
    primus, you think YOU have a problem, come to southern california. we're a country to ourselves, and have all the attendant "problems". however, consenting adults wishing to exchance currency for sexual pleasure, or wishing to pull a slot machine, or whatever "vice" you choose, should not be prosecuted for anything. prohibition makes criminals of citizens and citizens of criminal.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#13)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    T-Chris, The courts don't agree with you. It's an illegal arrest because of a procedural error, not criminal actions by the police. You of all people should know there is a distinction.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#14)
    by cp on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:01:07 PM EST
    wow! that must have been one heck of a lap dance! took the guy 20 days to recover from it enough to finally arrest the woman? you know, i just can't think of anything else to say, it leaves you breathless at the possibilities.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#15)
    by Johnny on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    So why didn't this cop arrest her the minute she offered such services? Why wait til he got his rocks off? Why wait 20 freakin' days? How many more "investigations" did he pursue? This stinks to high heaven.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#16)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:11:17 PM EST
    It only stinks because people like you and T-chris jump to the conclusions you do.....

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#17)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:12:24 PM EST
    Do we know he "got his rock off"? I dunno about you, but for me it takes more than a lap dance.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:18:23 PM EST
    patrick, you stud you. the lapdance-proof blogger. salud!

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:18:54 PM EST
    Well you can sue anyone for anything, the objective being to win your suit. Police would have limited immunity in this case as long as there wasn't an intentional misuse of authority.
    Sure, and in some cases liability would rest with the public agency rather than with individual officer; OTOH, this certainly looks like an intentional misuse of authority, at least superficially.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:20:01 PM EST
    I don't know Pat...This one lapdance, the girl was so skilled that I....let's say there was no need for relief when I got home. Must have been the sweatpants. Attention America...repeat after me...no victim, no crime...no victim, no crime.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:21:39 PM EST
    As an addendum to the above, my point was that the absence of an effective remedy within the criminal process does not, by itself, mean there is no remedy for the unlawful arrest. Additionally, I can't think of an appropriate remedy within the criminal context for an unlawful arrest that does not prejudice the criminal case.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:29:29 PM EST
    I for one am glad justice was delivered upon this criminal mastermind. Just think of the thousands of laps that can now safely travel the street of Honolulu, undanced. Certainly it is a proud day when a man can peacefully drink and ogle boobs, secure in the thought that his lap will go unmolested by attractive women.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#23)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:30:56 PM EST
    Kdog, I will submit that a lapdance hardly rises to the level of prostitution, except perhaps, in the case you've cited, but are you saying that true prostitution is a victimless crime?

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:34:40 PM EST
    Lap dances lead to deviant behavior, imagine the thought of a man asking his wife to consider something other than the missionary position when considering procreation. My guess is the resulting pregnancy would definitely bear a child that is unfit for our society.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:38:54 PM EST
    Sure am Patrick. Sex is legal...Selling is legal...why is selling sex illegal? There are worse things being sold in this world than sexual pleasure. As long as all parties consent willingly, what's the problem? People trade sex for favors, fancy dinners, and countless other things. Why is trading it for money so bad?

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#26)
    by TChris on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:39:10 PM EST
    Patrick, I understand the difference between a criminal statute and the Constitution. I also understand that both are sources of law, and by definition, any act that is contrary to law is an illegal act, even if the illegal behavior doesn't carry a criminal penalty.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:49:03 PM EST
    T-Chris, Just admitting there is a distinction, and that your splitting hairs is good enough for me. You write it as though the cops were committing a crime, when you know they weren't. Kdog, Apprarently that's another topic we will never agree on. Fine with me. I see no sense in arguing it with you.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:52:12 PM EST
    P: Are you suggesting that prostitution has a victim? I would like to hear why. Not trying to be a dick here, just curious.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:55:41 PM EST
    I will submit that a lapdance hardly rises to the level of prostitution, except perhaps, in the case you've cited, but are you saying that true prostitution is a victimless crime?
    I'm not kdog, but I'll say that true prostitution is a victimless crime. OTOH, plenty of offenses -- speeding that doesn't produce an accident -- are victimless, and enforced to protect society from the decidedly non-victimless potential consequences they could have.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#30)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:00:06 PM EST
    “speeding that doesn't produce an accident -- are victimless, and enforced to protect society from the decidedly non-victimless potential consequences they could have.” Are you suggesting that somehow a john and prostitute, while exchanging money for sex, may somehow directly harm a third party? Hard to imagine; help me out here.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#31)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:07:27 PM EST
    J, No need to try... :-) Yes, I think there are many victims, most importantly the prostitute herself. Many girls will tell you it's their choice to do this, and for some it's actually true, but many are forced into prostitution for a variety of reasons, including drug addiction, threat of pysical violence etc... hopefully you all don't need me to explain that. The next victim is the person who engages in a relationship with a prostitute or a john. With our knowledge of STD's today, that person either knowingly, or in many cases unknowingly, is sleeping with all the partners those people had in the past several years. The next victim is the community (Business owners, residents, etc) where the prostitutes ply their trade. Violence, drugs and disease are trademarks and follow along, and it certainly detracts from a neighborhood. So yeah, I believe prostitution is not a victimless crime in most cases.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:28:46 PM EST
    it takes more than a lap dance for a cop to get his rocks off, like the good beating of a minority.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:35:20 PM EST
    Are you suggesting that somehow a john and prostitute, while exchanging money for sex, may somehow directly harm a third party?
    I wasn't making any claims about prostitution other than that it (1) is a crime without direct personal victims, and (2) there is no general prohibition on such "victimless" crimes as a class, nor, really, should there be. In fact, the idea of crime is that there is some harm to society; where harms are purely direct harms to a particular victim, action in tort or contract provides the most appropriate remedy. Criminal law serves a number of social purposes, but addressing direct personal harms to victims is at best peripheral to them. Frankly, I think that, in practice, criminalization of prostitution is a rather poor method of controlling the harms usually attributed to it, and that regulated legalization is probably a better policy.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#34)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:36:13 PM EST
    pigwiggle and k-dog, very amusing and enlightened responses to this "issue." What a lot of idiots with real power we have in this country. Pretty much all of them, really. God, it's enough even for a communitarian like me to take a second look at libertarianism.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:39:46 PM EST
    P- “many are forced into prostitution for a variety of reasons, including drug addiction, threat of pysical violence” Well, avoiding the sticky wicket of drug prices and prohibition; what other distasteful jobs do we outlaw because of the spending habits of potential employees? And really, is this justification in the first place. As to the issue of force labor under the threat of violence; isn’t slave labor illegal? Again, is the association of slave labor justification for prohibition? There are many products that are currently, and have been, produced through slave labor. We don’t outlaw all garments because some are manufactured through forced labor. Further, I can see numerous ways that prohibition of prostitution would make investigating associated crimes more difficult. What john is going to come running to the cops when he finds his ‘date’ is mostly unwilling? “The next victim is the person who engages in a relationship with a prostitute or a john. With our knowledge of STD's…” Someone who knowingly transmits an STD should be punished. Prostitute, john, whoever. “The next victim is the community (Business owners, residents, etc) where the prostitutes ply their trade. Violence, drugs and disease are trademarks and follow along” This is unique to the black market trade. Take a field trip to one of the legal sex markets here in the US; you may be surprised to see some regular folks enjoying sex for sale without the accompanying garbage you mention.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#36)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:47:46 PM EST
    P: I agree with the community issues, as a kid growing up in a prostitution hot zone it did have an effect on me. That said, STD's are victimless as two engaging adults are having consensual sex irrespective of money changing hands. STD's are prevalent in our society as a result of unprotected sex and the victim is any person that willingly engages in unprotected sex irrespective of whether or not they pay for it. When I skydive, i know there is a risk of parachute not opening, but that does not stop me from wearing one. As far as "forced into" prostitution by a third party, make it legal and that disappears almost entirely. With regard to drug addiction etc., the same can be said for the pornography industry, that many of those making those films have dependency issues and use adult films to finance their addictions. Are you willing to eradicate and or criminalize adult films? I know it can be a vicious cycle for those addicted and turning a trick can be a quick way to fuel the habit and by no means "easy", but there are many prostitutes who do not have addiction issues rather do it because it is lucrative (most of those are escorts and not street walkers). Legalization as is demonstrated in Germany for example with regulation would eliminate the problems within communities as well as the violence and other criminal behaviour by proxie. It is a victimless crime. A woman or a man should be able to sell their bodies as they see fit, as they do on television, movies and Playboy. Sex sells in those venues sans penetration. Criminalization is what causes the crime, make it legal and watch the permeating crime dissipate.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:47:51 PM EST
    Yes, I think there are many victims, most importantly the prostitute herself. Many girls will tell you it's their choice to do this, and for some it's actually true, but many are forced into prostitution for a variety of reasons, including drug addiction, threat of pysical violence etc... hopefully you all don't need me to explain that.
    Most of these threats are largely consequences of (or greatly exacerbated by) prostitution being illegal; you don't see a lot of legal private sector businesses deliberately hooking their employers on drugs or threatening them with violence to keep them in line, because if they did these things, the employees would turn to the government which would provide substantial sanctions which would render such tactics ineffective. Pimps can get away with this because their "employees" are afraid of law enforcement because their work is, itself, criminal. But, sure, some people, even if it were legal, would choose the line of work because it is one of the few things they are qualified to do that is in demand, and they are economically compelled to do something to earn money by poverty, possibly compounded by drug addiction. So what? That's not a reason to criminalize activity that isn't already harmful, just as it is not an excuse from criminal liability where activity is harmful. We don't make theft a crime because people do it because they are poor and need money for food or drugs, we criminalize it because it harms society and violates people's property rights.
    The next victim is the person who engages in a relationship with a prostitute or a john. With our knowledge of STD's today, that person either knowingly, or in many cases unknowingly, is sleeping with all the partners those people had in the past several years.
    This is a known risk of sex that adults have the capacity to weigh. Nothing requires adults to engage in sexual intercourse with other adults willy-nilly, they may take any steps they feel are appropriate to protect themselves. But again, this is exacerbated by the criminalization of prostitution, which contributes to the prostitution/IVDU nexus.
    The next victim is the community (Business owners, residents, etc) where the prostitutes ply their trade. Violence, drugs and disease are trademarks and follow along, and it certainly detracts from a neighborhood.
    Well, certainly areas where prostitution are common have lots of violence, drugs, poverty, etc. But then again, because it is criminal, that's obvious, since prostitution -- at least the visible, street kind -- cannot thrive anyplace there is effective law enforcement. Again, this correlation is due to the fact that prostitution is criminal.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:49:08 PM EST
    Illegal arrest in this case is the equivalent of a procedural error, not illegal conduct by law enforcement.
    and i know the cops just love that one. probably just a tool used for intimidation, like the broken/blown tail/brake light. lets see if we can find out how many procedural error's occured, and against whom?

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 03:51:21 PM EST
    Here's the opinion.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 04:44:37 PM EST
    Patrick is correct that prostitution, in it's current form, has victims. The common thread in most of those issues is poverty. But legalization will do more to eliminate those factors than jailing and humiliating people.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 06:54:28 PM EST
    Right on, Patrick. Watching these Libs shuck and jive while trying to refute common sense is quite entertaining!

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#42)
    by cp on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 08:06:29 PM EST
    the horse with no name, have you always been a blithering, obtuse moron, or do you just play one on tv? to be a victim, one must be forced, against one's will, to engage in an act. those raped are victims. those assaulted are victims. people willingly engaging in an act, because they need money, or for whatever reason, are not victims. prostitution is said to be the world's oldest profession. personally, i think it's the second oldest, behind embezzlement. it has only been within the past few hundred years that governments concerned themselves with it, due to the influence of the catholic church. the church was concerned less with the prostitute than with the customer. also, the possibility that someone might be having fun sex really pissed them off. in this country, most prostitutes entered the profession willingly, for whatever reason. the same goes for most porno movie "actors". were it not for the legal prohibition against the activity, they would enjoy all the employment protections that any other person does, and the incentive for criminal involvement would be pretty much nonexistent. funny thing is, you don't hear about this sort of thing in nevada. could that be because in that state, prostitution is legal and regulated? i think perhaps it could be.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 08:22:46 PM EST
    cp - I just play one on tv ;-) I disagree with your definition of 'victim'. Someone might call you, rightly so, a victim of public education; although you haven't engaged in any acts against your will. I think young women need better aspirations than to dream of being prostitutes. Legalisation = Encouragement. But don't despair, prostitutes will prostitute despite the status of the law.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 06:42:17 AM EST
    Legalisation = Encouragement
    Yeah..and criminalization has been soooo discouraging. Prohibition has failed, time to try something new. Legalization/regulation may fail too, but there is only one way to find out.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 08:57:29 AM EST
    The most expensive prostitute is the one you have to wine, dine, buy a few rings for, marry, and then still not get what you're paying for. Funny how that seems to be acceptable in moral Publicans eyes... maybe it's the obscene amount of torture, er, abuse, involved that makes them love it so!

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#46)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 09:06:29 AM EST
    Horse With no Name- “Legalisation = Encouragement” Small Government says the right. Well small, but only when it isn’t our agenda, our pet social engineering projects, forced on folks, willing or not. Fiscal conservatism, says the right. Well, fiscal conservatism when it isn’t our pork or pandering, got to keep those special interest happy, farm subsidies anyone? States rights, says the right. Well, states rights as long as it’s our social agenda. Try to legalize marijuana or homosexual marriage and you’ll find out just how committed to states rights we are. Who is more afraid of freedom and choice, economic or social? Regan, Gingrich, Thomas, et al., there once was a party that would have dismantled the federal goliath given the opportunity the Republicans now benefit from. But, they are content to enjoy the overarching power. Enjoy it while it lasts, in time there will be different folks at the reigns plowing a different agenda.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 11:13:24 AM EST
    I think young women need better aspirations than to dream of being prostitutes.
    I think they need better aspirations than to dream of becoming, say, garbage collectors, too, but that doesn't mean that garbage collection should be criminal.
    Legalisation = Encouragement.
    No, its not. The default and desirable state is for humans to be free; criminalization is a statement that not only is a behavior worthy of discouragement, but that it poses a social danger that can effectively be controlled by no other means.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#48)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 11:19:21 AM EST
    PW: Great post.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 11:34:35 AM EST
    Kdog Prohibition of prostitution hasn't failed. It isn't 100% effective, but it serves its purpose. Pig Majority Rules. And you are mistaken if you ever believed 'Reagan, Gingrich, Thomas, et al' had any desire to dismantle a moral society. Noname I like your definition of 'criminalization' and I believe prostitution satisfies that definition (ie worthy of discouragement, poses uncontrolable social danger - STDs, etc..)

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#50)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 12:46:28 PM EST
    Horse- “Majority Rules. And you are mistaken if you ever believed 'Reagan, Gingrich, Thomas, et al' had any desire to dismantle a moral society.” Fortunately majority does not rule; the US is a constitutional republic. The constitution was fashioned in such a way as to protect a host of particularly important individual rights from the tyranny of the majority. Likewise, the republic was formed such that the federal government would have a weak position to the states. Have you missed the push for a federal constitutional amendment in response to state volition regarding homosexual marriage? Dismantle moral society? I’m talking small government and fiscal conservatism. Perhaps you are trying to shift the argument from the uncomfortable truth? “Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. … Are you entitled to the fruits of your labor or does government have some presumptive right to spend and spend and spend?” “Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem. … We've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, … One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.” “We are a nation under God, and I believe God intended for us to be free. … I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited” R Reagan. “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” My man, Thomas Jefferson. Or perhaps this is more your speed, Horse. “The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people.” B. Clinton

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 01:01:10 PM EST
    Pig 'Majority Rules' was a snarky way of reminding you that the party in power is decided at the ballot box. If you ever hope to "plow your agenda" you'll have convince the public that your way is the best way. But you won't, because it isn't. BTW - The quote from Reagan is excellent, and proves my point (moral society) as much as it does yours.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 01:44:44 PM EST
    How has prohibition suceeded? One example of how it has failed...Compare the rates of STD's among prostitutes in Nevada and NY or CA. Nevada's is lower.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 01:47:29 PM EST
    Also, what is immoral about two adults exchanging money for services rendered? I have no moral issues with what consenting adults do behind closed doors.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#54)
    by Patrick on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 02:17:54 PM EST
    Nevada has legal and illegal prostitution, which shows that legalizing it and regulating it will not eliminate the illegal practice of it. Besides, I would posit that the illegal prostitutes have the same or similar rate of STD's. Their infection rates is not the issue, it's the people they spread it to.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#55)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:02:56 PM EST
    P- “Nevada has legal and illegal prostitution, which shows that legalizing it and regulating it will not eliminate the illegal practice of it.” Demand obviously exceeds the legal supply. “Besides, I would posit that the illegal prostitutes have the same or similar rate of STD's.” You would be wrong. In Nevada the legal prostitutes are subject to weekly testing and condoms are required for all sexual contact. A legal prostitute in Nevada, by definition, does not have STDs.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#56)
    by Patrick on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:17:09 PM EST
    And you misunderstood my statement. Illegal prostitues in any of the states you mentioned would have the same or similar rates of STD's. Demand obviously exceeds the legal supply. That's one possibility, can you think of others? Perhaps convenience and anonimity are also factors. Whatever the reason, the legalization of prostitution will NOT end the illegal practice of prostitution. Nevada has proven that.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#57)
    by cp on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 03:53:40 PM EST
    i would be curious to see links, to whatever source documents support the existence of significant illegal prostitution in nevada. given the legal availability of a known, regulated product (sorry, couldn't think of any better way to put it! lol), why would anyone with even half a brain risk coupling with an illegal prostitute? help me out here guys.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#58)
    by Patrick on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    CP, You can't be serious.....Or you can't be old enough to gamble. No need for links...Go to Vegas, it's illegal in Clark Co, but apparently the people on the street handing out the pamphlets with the photos and telephone #'s, missed that memo.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 04:04:28 PM EST
    i would be curious to see links, to whatever source documents support the existence of significant illegal prostitution in nevada. I don't know how you define 'significant' but a batchelor party in Vegas about 6 years ago proved to me that illegal prostitutes are very easily obtainable in Vegas. given the legal availability of a known, regulated product (sorry, couldn't think of any better way to put it! lol), why would anyone with even half a brain risk coupling with an illegal prostitute? Drunk guys in Vegas don't want to drive out of county.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#60)
    by Johnny on Thu Mar 17, 2005 at 08:40:34 PM EST
    Probably the same reason black market cigarettes are so popular-similar product at a reduced price. Speaking of which, there are many products out there that are legal, and highly dangerous. How many people drink themselves to death every year? How many people smoke themselves to death every year? How many people eat themselves to death every year? Why call "public health and/or safety" as a reason to outlaw hooking, when much more dangerous, legal, products are available readily? Banning of prostitution is an extension of puritanism. Mandated morality.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:31:46 AM EST
    Good point Johnny, it's the puritan morality, not a public health issue. Bottom line...sex sells, but don't you dare sell sex! Prostitution is as old as the caveman giving half of his food to the cavewoman in exchange for some lovin'. Seems a little silly to criminalize it all of a sudden. "All of a sudden" meaning w/in the last hundred or so years of the history of mankind.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:35:32 AM EST
    STD's are self inflicted. If you have unprotected sex with anyone you are exposing yourself, why should this be an argument for prostitution? If your husband or wife gives you an STD does it matter if they got it from a prostitute or a one night's stand? Another ridiculous argument regarding prostitution. Where it is legal, the women are tested weekly and condoms are mandatory. Unfortunately, condoms are not mandatory upon leaving a nightclub at 3 a.m.

    Re: Arresting Lap Dancers (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:05:53 AM EST
    The hookers in Waikiki are not vice officers. I know because I have been doing research on street prostiution for over 3 years and have personally interviewed every girl out there and the pimps. You will see lots ofprostitutes on Kuhio and they all get to stay there because the pimps pay off the cops. hawaii is the premier spot for the good old boys type of government. The sad thing is that women who are using internet sites to escort while doing it safely and out of the eyes of the general public are being prayed upon by the police. When they are arrested, adn completely set up I might add, they are forced to pay a 500 dollar fine. This is a horrible way to punish women who are obviousely in need of survival money. But welcome to Hawaii and the completely backwards governemntal and policing system.

    Arresting Lap Dancers | 63 comments (63 topical)