home

Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists

Sabrina Harman standing over the corpse of detainee Manadel al-Jamadi. She is not one of the navy commandos charged with abusing him. Her court-martials trial on other charges is pending.

Let's not get so myopic over Jeff Gannon that we lose sight of the forest....The Associated Press has obtained documents showing that a ghost detainee (one whom the U.S. hid from the Red Cross and didn't put on it lists) died after being hung from the wrists - after interrogation by the CIA. They call it a "Palestinean hanging."

An Iraqi whose corpse was photographed with grinning U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib died under CIA interrogation while suspended by his wrists, which had been handcuffed behind his back, according to investigative reports reviewed by The Associated Press.

The death of the prisoner, Manadel al-Jamadi, became known last year when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. The U.S. military said back then that it had been ruled a homicide. But the exact circumstances of the death were not disclosed at the time. The prisoner died in a position known as "Palestinian hanging," the documents reviewed by The AP show. It is unclear whether that position - which human rights groups condemn as torture - was approved by the Bush administration for use in CIA interrogations.

Here's more:

Al-Jamadi died in a prison shower room during about a half-hour of questioning, before interrogators could extract any information, according to the documents, which consist of statements from Army prison guards to investigators with the military and the CIA's Inspector General's office.

One Army guard, Sgt. Jeffery Frost, said the prisoner's arms were stretched behind him in a way he had never before seen. Frost told investigators he was surprised al-Jamadi's arms "didn't pop out of their sockets," according to a summary of his interview.

Frost and other guards had been summoned to reposition al-Jamadi, who an interrogator said was not cooperating. As the guards released the shackles and lowered al-Jamadi, blood gushed from his mouth "as if a faucet had been turned on," according to the interview summary.

The military pathologist who ruled the case a homicide found several broken ribs and concluded al-Jamadi died from pressure to the chest and difficulty breathing.

There is no question that it is torture.

Dr. Vincent Iacopino, director of research for Physicians for Human Rights, called the hyper-extension of the arms behind the back "clear and simple torture." The European Court of Human Rights found Turkey guilty of torture in 1996 in a case of Palestinian hanging - a technique Iacopino said is used worldwide but named for its alleged use by Israel in the Palestinian territories.

So what happened to those responsible?

Navy SEALs apprehended al-Jamadi as a suspect in the Oct. 27, 2003, bombing of Red Cross offices in Baghdad that killed 12 people. His alleged role in the bombing is unclear. According to court documents and testimony, the SEALs punched, kicked and struck al-Jamadi with their rifles before handing him over to the CIA early on Nov. 4. By 7 a.m., al-Jamadi was dead.

Navy prosecutors in San Diego have charged nine SEALs and one sailor with abusing al-Jamadi and others. All but two lieutenants have received nonjudicial punishment; one lieutenant is scheduled for court-martial in March, the other is awaiting a hearing before the Navy's top SEAL.

The article continues with more about what happened to al-Jamadi. We wrote about the case last September, here.

< GannonGate Continues | New Information Emerges About Missing Iraq Billions >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#1)
    by nolo on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 12:25:06 PM EST
    Oh great. I'm going to Do A Godwin right now and point out that Nazis used to hang people that way in their f**king camps. For shame that we have come to this.

    Why not go after the big guys, why do you and the government love the doing cover-up for bush and business? its always the little guy who gets attacked and goes to prison, and that is what the left and right like and need. when it comes down to it our real enemy that will kill us all is the government and both non political parties.

    advertisement for blog deleted.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 12:40:16 PM EST
    Lets see,how does that go again? "This isnt torture." And, "Prove it,(not-torture) dosnt work." That about right?

    The difference between us and the Nazi's is that our soldiers will be punished. While this administration doesn't seem concerned, other corners in our society are horrified, concerned, and doing something about it. Don't compare us to them.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#6)
    by Sailor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 01:18:07 PM EST
    No Boca, the difference between the current admin and the nazis is the nazis who ORDERED and APPROVED the torture were prosecuted. When Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Miller, et al are tried and convicted I might agree with your post.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 01:25:55 PM EST
    Sailor, Excellent clarification.

    um, Boca, go to Google and type in Nuremburg. Then come back and spew. It's endlessly entertaining for me to see the wingnuts knee jerk faster to being called Nazis than to the mention of Bill and Monica. If the cuff position fits... Our friend of "prove torture doesn't work" and "it's discomfort, possibly abuse but definitely not torture" (you out there PPJ?) is obviously eminently more qualified to speak on the issue than the below respondent:
    Dr. Vincent Iacopino, director of research for Physicians for Human Rights, called the hyper-extension of the arms behind the back "clear and simple torture." The European Court of Human Rights found Turkey guilty of torture in 1996 in a case of Palestinian hanging - a technique Iacopino said is used worldwide but named for its alleged use by Israel in the Palestinian territories.
    A last question: How did the hillbilly hicks in West VA learn the technique for Palestinian Hanging? Extracurricular reading on the night shift???

    A last question: How did the hillbilly hicks in West VA learn the technique for Palestinian Hanging? Extracurricular reading on the night shift???
    methods and means of torture are as old as life itself, pain is an excellent motivator. "...gonna get medieval on that ass..."

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#10)
    by john horse on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 02:54:14 PM EST
    mfox re:"How did the hillbilly hicks in West VA learn the technique for Palestinian Hanging" Excellent point. Let me ask a related question. How come there are so many similarities between these techniques in Abu Grhaib, Guantanamo, the Navy Seals, and by the Brits? They didn't come up with this on their own. Yet none of the higher-ups has been held to account. One more question. What the hell is happening to our servicemen in Iraq? We are told that they are trained to be sensitive to the Iraqi people and Iraqi culture, yet, on the other hand you have this (WARNING GRAPHIC PICTURES and CAPTIONS) from a GI website. My only explanation is that the only way that you can do your job and occupy a country against the wishes of its people is to objectify (or mentally dehumanize) them.

    mfox - Have you been taking dumb pills again? I haven't condoned torture. In fact, I specifically commented that I was against torture. Now, outside of wanting to make an inaccurate charge, why would you comment that? I mean, it wasn't even cleverly done. I'll give you an F on content and and F on presentation. I did ask for someone to provide some proof, a link perhaps, that torture doesn't work. Unfotrtunately, none of you have yet been able to do that. And, as I noted, the purpose of this is simple. Some people do not care that it is immoral. But, perhaps, if we can show that it is also not effective, they will cease. So we would then have three reasons to not torture prisoners. 1. immoral 2. illegal 3. ineffective Now, would you like to be part of the solution? Or remain just another complainer?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#12)
    by desertswine on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 02:56:19 PM EST
    Damn, that's such a heart-wrenching picture. It's like the kid next door and her victim.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 02:56:44 PM EST
    A last question: How did the hillbilly hicks in West VA learn the technique for Palestinian Hanging? Extracurricular reading on the night shift???
    Over the last year there have been reports of Israelis in Iraq as consultants as well as CIA types traveling to Israel for "torture tips"

    PPJ - Spare me the personal insults please - I don't spit on you for your comments. You have said on many occasions (pls correct if mistaken) that you don't condone torture but that's not what's happening in Iraq and Gitmo. I didn't research your comments as it's the end of the day on the East Coast but promise I'll do it first thing a.m. Are you finally conceding that prisoners are being tortured?

    Jim, If a dead guy who was "uncooperative" isn't proof enough then I don't know what is. Your framing is illogical - thats why you are without an answer. The proof needs to be made that it does work - i.e. the confession of the guy/gal (call me anything but sexist) with his finger "on the button". Wanna tell me "it's a secret"? BSh*t. If they had one example of a plot foiled by confession under torture Ashcroft would be doing a cakewalk down Pennsylvania Ave. BTW, I do apologize for targeting you specifically, but it's your comments/ideas, not your person.

    C'mon, mfox, PPJ has been having a hard time today. When you see the misspellings in his comments, it tells you that he's getting all emotional and illogical, such as claiming that whatever someone posted as PPJ(aka dim) wasn't a 'paarody', which in all fairness, it wasn't. Need to step back and take a few deep breaths, PPJ, before renewing your battle the "America-hating leftists" who run everything but the WH, Congress, Faux News, Talon News, etc.......

    Oh, and I did link to an article about a guy who wrote a book where he said that torture didn't work, and even a link to the book on Amazon.com. I also linked to and quoted from an article where a retired vet was quoted as saying that torture doesn't work for getting immediate necessary intelligence, which you brushed aside with a comment about how he probably had no experience with long-term intelligence gathering from prisoners, where the dynamics are totally different, right? If you didn't seem to check those links from you comments, why should they be re-posted for you to ignore again? Show some signs of checking out links that people provide when you request them the first time, and perhaps your credibility will reach something that isn't mathematically equal to zero on a non-trivial level.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#18)
    by nolo on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:02:22 PM EST
    PPJ, no one here's going to be able to point you to a scientific study on the efficacy of torture for one awfully good reason: You couldn't conduct such a study without violating just about every ethical rule in the book. But there is the school of experience, and if you look around, you'll see that almost every modern manual on interrogation techniques and exploitation of human resources says that information obtained through torture is not reliable. So unless you think you can come up with an ethically feasible way to test the hypothesis further, why not just trust the experts?

    -PPJ you said: "I did ask for someone to provide some proof, a link perhaps, that torture doesn't work. Unfotrtunately, none of you have yet been able to do that." I did, in a thread on this same topic a few days ago. I provided a number of authors who have written on this subject. You chose to ignore it, though you did respond to numerous other posts that followed it, and I give you credit for dropping the "where's the proof" line you'd been using for a few days. It's not our fault if your memory is that faulty, or can't be bothered to do the follow up work when someone provides the information you request. Sorry. No Troll cookie for you this time.

    This was an accident. We wanted intel from this terrorist. We can't get that if he's dead.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#21)
    by Walter on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 05:25:11 PM EST
    Good point Neocon, I say just add him to the list of the other 99,999 dead Iraqis. All terrorists, all dead but hey all accidents.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#22)
    by john horse on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 05:42:38 PM EST
    "In this war, things get confused out there, power, ideals, the old morality, and practical military necessity...Because there's a conflict in every human heart between the rational and the irrational, between good and evil. The good does not always triumph...Every man has got a breaking point. You and I have. Walter Kurtz has reached his. And very obviously, he has gone insane" -Apocalypse Now Very obviously, some of the military personnel in Iraq have gone insane.

    Bush commands, we bear what follows.

    Adept - I went over to the archives for "Detainees" and found nothing in the past month, plus I also did a quick look at "War in Iraq." Perhaps you can be more specific? I'd be happy to read and comment. mfox - If you can't take it, don't pass it out.

    They never had it so good, right Jim?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 06:53:11 PM EST
    Jim is against torture, its just that he hasn't seen a case of torture yet. But if he were to ever see a case he would surely be against it. I'm not holding my breath

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#27)
    by john horse on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 06:59:07 PM EST
    PPJ, I think the question, whether torture works, proves the point I was trying to make with the Apocalypse Now quote. Under the Bush administration, there has been a growing confusion between "power, ideals, the old morality, and practical military necessity." If torture is, as you believe, immoral and illegal, then why is it also necessary to show that it is also ineffective? Isn't being immoral and illegal sufficient reason, in itself, for not engaging in torture?

    PPJ- once again... I recommended that rather than seeking scholarly reports, you might look at the writings of those that had suffered torture, or committed it: For starters, I recommend the works of A. Solzhenitsyn (sp?)who, after spending years in the Prison/Labor Camp/Exile system of Gulag, as well as the writings of many of his sources, cited in the Gulag Archipelago. While his text can be a bit over the top at times, I choose to believe that someone who suffered torture for years might be an authority on the subject. The same can be said for many of the works he cites. From WWII, many works on this subject have been written about SS and Japanese "questioning" methods and their effectiveness. Easy to find, if you can only be bothered to go look. Also, the writings of V. Suvurov (the 1960's defector, not the 17th century Russian military commander whose name he borrowed) comment heavily on this subject in a number of places. All of these at one time or another show the futility of torture in information gathering. In almost every case I've read over the years, the result is the same. People will say anything, and implicate anyone to stop someone else from torturing them. Now that I've posted this, I'm sure you'll come up with some way to rationalize that someone who suffered torture couldn't possibly be an authority on the subject. :) I'm with you on this one, soccerdad. PPJ's cognitive dissonance level appears to be "red" on this issue.

    That Ms. Harmon is photogenic though. Great smile, looks like the girl next door. Probably is the girl next door. What a neighborhood the US has become. Luckily the administration has moved quickly to ban cameras so we will never have to see pictures like this again. Does everybody agree that the cameras were the problem?

    ca- Why does Kodak hate America?

    Adept - The question is, can torture be effective in obtaining useful information, not whether or not it is bad. And, since you, and others, have been claiming that it is not, I was hopeful that you might have some specific information on the subject instead of references to this book or that article. Since you do not, I will put you down as a true believer, but lacking in facts. John Horse - The reason? I guess the first is a belief that with some people you can not win an argument, or control actions, merely ecause it is immoral and/or illegal. i.e. Many people would cheerfully rob banks, but refrain because it has been demonstrated that it is not an effective way of obtaining money. And yes, I know, some still try, but by and large, the risk is large and the reward very small. This deters many. BTW - I also believe. But I'm not the person you have to convince. And please feel free to be angry, insulting, etc., at someone asking some hard questions.

    I am willing to admit that if you want to strip torture of all moral considerations it may be useful in a tactical sense. That is in a battlefield situation when you need immediate information to save the lives of soldiers you manage to capture some of the enemy, torture may be useful in extracting information about enemy positions and strength which may reduce friendly casulties in the short term. I am much more skeptical of a ticking timebomb scenario because the ifs and buts of situation are just so tenuous it sounds more like a philosophical exercise than a realistic scenario. But even in a battlefield situation mentioned above the tactical advantage is soon outweighed by the strategic disadvantages. Soldiers who expect to be tortured by the enemy are less likely to surrender and more likely to fight to the death. Wars are won when the other side loses its will to fight. If you look at the example of World War II in Europe, on the Western Front, casulties were relatively low and the German Army collapsed quickly in 1945 while on the Eastern Front the Germans fought to the death. The difference was that they knew that if they surrendered to the British or the Americans they would be well treated. If they surrendered to the Soviets they would probably be killed anyway so they fought to death (or tried to escape to the west so they could surrender to the Americans). It is obvious that the abuses that have occurred have produced almost no, if any, useful intelligence and have certainly caused great resentment and have created more terrorists.

    Bush needs prison, he ordered it, and he will do the same to us all for his own reasons. The guy in the pic, maybe you some day if bush and gang are not stopped. Where is Bin Laden? did that guy know?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#34)
    by Walter on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 12:25:12 AM EST
    How about the case of Lt.Col. Allen West?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#35)
    by john horse on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 03:29:42 AM EST
    PPJ, Why has there been a dramatic increase in torture on the part of the US? I would say the similarity between the abuse found in different locations and that it was found in many different locations indicates that this was not the actions of a few "bad apples" but something more systematic. If the problem was systematic then why aren't any of the higher-ups being prosecuted? Torture is against our own values, as specified in the Constitutional ban on "cruel and unusual punishments." Its use makes us appear to be hypocrites. Why do we prohibit it against our own citizens but practice it against others? Finally, if you want to pursue this, type "is torture effective". What you will find is that it is generally not effective (for some of the reasons Frederson mentions) but that this is not a simple 'yes' or 'no' question.

    Jim, how would you structure a test to find out if torture is an effective means of extracting information? If you need proof that it works or doesn't, you have to structure studies in an area where no reasonable and ethical scientist would work. So you point to the absence of clinicial studies as evidence that torture may work. Do you have no shame, sir? There are the scientific studies of hypothermia deaths that German scientists conducted on Jews a few decades ago. They were designed to help the German army save soldiers and swabs who ended up in the drink and they were rigorously scientific, but no scientist will acknowledge using them or building on the knowledge because of the ethical considerations. My guess on torture is that almost anyone can be made to disclose everything they know under torture. I also guess that almost anyone can be made to agree to anything (like, yes, I am a terrorist, yes, I blew up humvees) under torture. Now in the case of disclosure of information that might save lives, it's tempting in those hypothetical situations where a person/torturer might think they could save lives, but like the German hypothermia experiments, there is no safe path here which is why torture has been outlawed. Now how dumb do you want to be about all this?

    Walter - Col West frightened a prisoner into revealing information concerning an ambush set up for his troops. He didn't lay a hand on him. Do you think he should not have, and just led his troops into an ambush, with the resulting US deaths? Freder F - Sorry, but the facts are that the Germans were rapidly falling apart in the fall of '44 under a relentless assualt by Patton's Third Army, and US forces on his left. Then Monty managed to sell Esienhower on "Market Garden." His plan was to break out through the Netherlands and make a dash to Berlin. So Esienhower had the others pull up, and over the outrage of Patton, give maximum supplies and support to Monty. Monty dithered and delayed, and when he finally attacked, he was replused. In the meantime the Germans re-grouped and fought a detemined bloody war over the next six months. (You have heard of the Battle of the Bulge.??) I recommend the bio of Patton, Esinhower and the BOOK, "Band of Brothers." John Horse - Of course your theory is that the US guards are being trained. My theory is that the terrorists are being trained to yell torture whenever they think they have a friendly ear. Theories being theories, I like mine better. And I agree that there is no yes/no answer, because many who comment here don't want the prisoners bothered, except to give them directions to the chow hall and recreation areas. Did I write that? Yes. I do believe that psychological actions are fair and should be used when necessary. But not torture. CA - I would think there would be a some information available, yes. So far only DA has provided any real information, although Adept has listed some books that describe how torture destroys the will, and the person. As I keep noting, if you can say that torture is immoral, illegal and ineffective, your position is much stronger than when you just claim that it is wrong, and illegal.

    PPJ really, really, really wants to believe that torture "works", even though he doesn't believe "in" it. Jim, as I said you have a framing problem, and rather than looking for evidence that it doesn't work (which body of evidence is anectotal by definition)perhaps you need to find a person on this planet who will come forward and say it does "work". Freder Frederson explained the best case for torture (thank you Freder)and why it is never a good idea even regardless of moral and ethical considerations. I wish you would explain logically and factually what your resistance is to accepting what seems to me a body of evidence that counters your claims. If you think we're shoving a left-wing bias down your throat, go to some wingnut sites, or (gasp) do some independent research online (hopefully out of your commenting time!). I really want to believe that you have a defensible position and just aren't foaming at the mouth. However I and others have noticed (see above posts) that you vacillate between commenting on torture stories that what's going on isn't torture and that you don't condone torture. But you not so secretly believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it really is a valuable tool "when used correctly." I for one would love for you to clarify your position once and for all. I suspect that you and the pres. feel very similarly. BTW, Germans developed gas chambers because their soldiers were becoming inhuman brutes from torturing and killing which some higher-ups thought may be detrimental to development of a "cultured" master race. Torture changes the torturer too. Now read John Horse's Apoc. Now quote again. I'll post it here. It is very important (who was that writer?)and very enlightening. Read it slowly and try to absorb it's impact.
    "In this war, things get confused out there, power, ideals, the old morality, and practical military necessity...Because there's a conflict in every human heart between the rational and the irrational, between good and evil. The good does not always triumph...Every man has got a breaking point. You and I have. Walter Kurtz has reached his. And very obviously, he has gone insane" -Apocalypse Now
    My military friend says torture always happens in war - count on it. This seems true to me, but it is our lower animal selves at work. The entire thrust of civilization has reached for something better than "the law of the jungle" and I want to demand better of ourselves. I fear we were very foolish in our estimation of the myriad costs of war for certainly had we envisioned the outcomes we've faced we'd not have voted to go. We were blithe. We were self-riteous. We told ourselves we were doing the Iraqi's a favor without bringing the costs to the table. Just as the Bush cabinet has continued to do (how did we know they'd fight back??). I for one opposed the war because I strongly believed (in addition to the moral transgression of pre-emptive war)that we were ignoring what it would actually mean to invade a country. You may call me a bleeding heart but I probably know more about the politics, motivations, causes and outcomes of a number of wars than many self-proclaimed hawks. I think that gives me perspective and insight into what we're doing today. When measured against history, frankly, we suck right now. We're doing all of the wrong things with all the right resources. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY!! (Apparently for me it's Soapbox Friday, so stay tuned...)

    "The question is, can torture be effective in obtaining useful information, not whether or not it is bad." Right. We understand you PPJ. Right and wrong do not matter. If perpetrating monstrous violence works, do it, even if it's wrong. No? If not, who cares if it "works"? IT'S WRONG. But the wingers could not care less. Because it's okay for a winger to do wrong things, and be rewarded for doing them. OTOH, of someone else besides the almighty ME is doing something wrong, like smoking a joint, execute that wrong person. "Everybody wants to see justice done on somebody else."

    Dearest No Name - Are you so ill informed that you haven't read my comments in which I say that torture is: 2. immoral 2. illegal The question is, is it ineffective? Can you answer that? Evidently you can't. Now go back to ranting. It serves no purpose but evidently it does make you feel good. mfox - Why do you make a comment that you know is untrue? That is dishonest at best, and here you are claiming to be a paragon of virture. As for your concern for injurying my feelings, let me assure I have had worse insults than anything you have been able to pass out, but then I don't need to comment on your ineptness, it is on display for all to see. And why do you quote movies? Do you think they are real? Good heavens. They are "stories," crafted together to provide a commercial vehicle to make "money." Is your education really that shallow? And BTW - The Germans developed the gas chambers because they couldn't kill fast enough using bullets and ropes, not from any fear that they were corrupting their "soldiers." That is one of the more dumber things I have heard used in justification of their actions. Perhaps you can provude a credible link? As for your use of the monarchly "we," I find that pretentious and juvenile. You no more speak for "us" than "we" for you, and it makes you appear dumb to try and act as if you have special knowledge. As for what you "probably know," you should understand that the word comes from "probable." Which in turn infers that it is not necessary accurate or true. In your case, I'd give odds that it isn't. But, in the spirit of debate, why don't you share with us this special knowledge and persoective, and tell us where you obtained it?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#41)
    by john horse on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 02:03:42 PM EST
    PPJ, Since you keep asking if torture is effective or ineffective, how about answering your own question. Lets take a case study. During the first Gulf War, American POWs held by Iraq were subject to torture. Specifically, "Saddam Hussein's secret services broke bones, shattered skulls, whipped, burned, shocked, beat, and urinated on American prisoners. One was so battered, it was later reported that his body looked like it had been dipped in indigo ink. Another had his teeth broken through electric shock. Many suffered through their own faked executions. They were starved so severely that one was forced to eat the scabs off his body." I fail to see any positive results that came from torture in this example. The negative effects of torture in creating ill will and hatred toward Saddam far outweighed whatever information the Iraqis gained, if any. Similarly, I would argue that the ill will and hatred that we have reaped in Iraq and throughout the Islamic world by our abuse of detainees has far outweighed any benefits. However, I could be wrong. If you can think of any positive results in this example, please let us know.

    PPJ- Thanks for proving me correct yet again. We give you pointers to the information you want, and then you dismiss it because you can't be bothered. These works all show cases establishing the immorality, and ineffectiveness of torture. Typical. Sorry, no simple links for you. If you really want the facts, you can get them the same way I did. One book at a time. Of course, I'm sure you'll still try to find someway to prove that people who suffered torture or committed it couldn't possibly be an authority on the subject. I'll just write you off as another true-believer "social liberal" wingnut who ignores any information that might conflict with his pre-established worldview. Thanks for playing.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 02:15:28 PM EST
    PPJ - You'd equivocate on any kind of barbarism in the name of the cause - we all know this - theyre all so many broken eggs in your "regime change" omelet - a mindset you have in common with the U. of Chicago ubermenschen in the administration.

    So ill-informed that I have not read your comments? Um, sorry to break the news to you, but I look elsewhere for information. Your posts are more like entertainment. You claim to agree torture is illegal (gee, thanks for agreeing to this indisputable fact) and immoral, but insist on positing the question of whether it is ineffective. Why? If it is immoral and illegal, it does not matter if it is effective. It is wrong and not excusable. But you keep focusing on whether it works, insisting someone here do your research for you and show you it is ineffective. If, as you claim, you want FURTHER support for the notion that torture should not be practised, or whatever, do you're own homework. Thing is, your claimed reason for asking the question over and over rings hollow. You've already said torture is justified in some circumstances. Admit it. In your world, the illegality/immorality factor does not figure. The ends justify the means. Don't fret. It's okay to say so. Remember, you're a Republican. Continue with your drivel so you can further stoke your bloated ego.

    ppj says he's against torture, but personally, I think he uses it as a marital aid

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#46)
    by john horse on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 03:17:53 PM EST
    I thought PPJ's comment about bank robberies was probably more on-the-mark than PPJ probably realized. What he said was that behavior is determined in part by the perceived balance between the risk or cost versus the benefit. In other words if you reduce the risk (cost), more bank robberies will result. Similarly, by changing the US position on torture to make some forms of abuse acceptable, the Bush administration lowered the perceived costs or risk of this activity. The result of their policy change, naturally, was the increase in the incidents of torture.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#47)
    by Walter on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 04:03:53 PM EST
    Walter - He didn't lay a hand on him. Huh? Do you think he should not have, and just led his troops into an ambush, with the resulting US deaths? You have proof that actually happened?

    The caption to that picture should be "Young Republicans Having Fun"

    Walter - That was the story. Link ricky1756 - Hey, I see you are back. Hugs and kissess. Oh yeah, the guys from the bar want to know when you will be back in town. They want to demonstrate a new martial aid for you. Or is that with you??? John Horse - It appears that the purpose of the torture on the Americans by Saddam's henchmen was just to hurt, not gain information. And although I disagree with your analysis, that was my point. In an immoral world, something besides morals and weak laws are needed to control the barbarians. Adept - You are ungrateful. I acknowledged the books and commented. Did I fall over in a swoon? No. Dearest No Name - War itself is terrible, and yes, I specified I could see a situation where torture would be justified. Unlike you, I put a higher value on the life of my fellow citizens than I do the comfort of a terrorist. As to why I pose the question, I have answered that at least 6 times. But just for you. In this world morals and laws are not always enough to stop people. Perhaps if it was also ineffective, they wouldn't bother.

    PPJ: Up until tonight I have believed you that you are against torture, simply because you say you are, and you seem like a pretty reliable guy overall. But tonight in the thick of debate you have uttered the following two statements: "Unlike you, I put a higher value on the life of my fellow citizens than I do the comfort of a terrorist." "In this world morals and laws are not always enough to stop people. Perhaps if it was also ineffective, they wouldn't bother." Do you realize how easily these statements could be construed as pro-torture? Please clarify. And asking for links doesn't cut it. If you are against it you're against it, you're not you're not, and if you don't know or think it depends, then you don't know and think it depends. What's the deal?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#51)
    by glanton on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 07:19:43 PM EST
    Above by me. My bad, too many Whiskeys in celebration of Dook's humiliating loss to Va Tech! Who's riding high now, Cliff?

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#53)
    by john horse on Sat Feb 19, 2005 at 04:29:16 AM EST
    PPJ, re:"In this world morals and laws are not always enough to stop people." What does it say about the Bush administration that "morals and law" were not able to stop them from condoning, promoting, and practicing torture? Maybe, some of the other commentators are right, that you are hoping to find something positive about torture. Its hard to face the truth about the Bush administration, isn't it? Regarding Iraqi torture of American POWs, I'm not sure what the purpose was. What I do know is that on balance, it was counterproductive.

    Dearest No Name - You appear to not understand that many people do not obey laws because it is the "moral" thing to do. They do it because it is "illegal" and if caught, will be punished. And many people do not obey laws because it is the moral thing to do and is illegal and if they break the laws they will be punished if caught. These people obey because the results of their law breaking is not worth the risk. As John H noted, it has a low reward - risk factor. I noted that many people don't rob banks because the reward doesn't cover the punishment. So, if you can demonstrate that torture is ineffective, which was my question, then you will have three reasons, instead of two, to not torture. 1. It is immoral. 2. It is illegal. 3. It is ineffective. i.e. You will not get the information you want. Now, let us visit my other comment. Please read carefully. If I knew about a specific attack about to happen on Americans, or anyone for that matter, by a terrorist group or person, and if I had in my custody a person who could give me information that would save lives, then I would do whatever necessary to make that person talk. That was the comment I made previously. That would justify whatever it takes. And I would not care about any discomfort, pain, etc., suffered by the terrorist.

    Re: Detainee Died After Being Hung From the Wrists (none / 0) (#55)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Feb 19, 2005 at 09:34:57 AM EST
    Jim, Th odds of your scenario coming true are so astronomically low that it cannot be used to justify your arguement.

    Jim has watched one too many dirty harry movie.

    Che - There is no argument. Just a statement of what I would do if it did. If it didn't, I wouldn't. CA - Somehow, I don't think you could ever Make My Day. But go ahead, CA...try... I may have used all my verbs.... Did you count'em, CA?? ;-)