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Family Values

By TChris, Section Other Politics
Posted on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:16:34 PM EST
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by TChris

Conservative commentator Alan Keyes is teaching a lesson in family values.

Maya Keyes -- liberal, lesbian and a little lost -- finds herself out on her own. She says her parents -- conservative commentator and perennial candidate Alan Keyes and his wife, Jocelyn -- threw her out of their house, refused to pay her college tuition and stopped speaking to her. Maya, 19, says her parents cut her off because of who she is -- "a liberal queer."

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    Family Values | 47 comments (47 topical)
    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:55:10 PM EST
    Sad, and sadly not surprising.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:19:50 PM EST
    That's compassionate conservatism!

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:24:21 PM EST
    Most conservatives put Keyes further out on the loony bin scale than Coulter. He's entertaining in exactly the same way that Sharpton is - i.e.: "he said what? No...."

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:27:00 PM EST
    Yes, its true. Alan Keyes is in fact the offical spokesman and resident role-model for compassionate conservatism. Anyone up for a quick round of Wasn't as bad as the Clenis?

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:52:13 PM EST
    Maya, You have my sympathy that your father is Alan Keyes. You are 19 now, and really, you don't need parental support. There are scholarships and loans for worthy students, and campus jobs. Those of us who didn't have rich parents did it, you can too. Go girl!

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#6)
    by Ray Radlein on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:33:11 AM EST
    For what it's worth, Maya's girlfriend was also kicked out of her house by her parents, last autumn; and another friend of hers, a young boy who was kicked out of his house by his parents for being gay, recently died of a drug overdose while living on the streets. He, too, had a good college awaiting him before his parents gave him the boot.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#7)
    by cp on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:07:34 AM EST
    i sort of empathize with mr. keyes and his wife. in his position, what else could he do? his daughter clearly represents their failure as parents, and makes them look bad to their friends. so, the only thing they could do is jettison her. it's the only way to be sure.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:10:16 AM EST
    Karl Rover hit it. Maya, go out and make your own life. It's not your fault that your parents are small-minded bigots and lousy human beings. But we can rise above our adversities if we choose to.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:16:30 AM EST
    cp, How does this woman being gay mean her parents failed? No matter how hard you try, you can't force someone to change their sexual orientation. And I really hope you are not saying that it's ok to kick out you own child because she would make you look bad. That would be the WORST thing I have ever read on this site. instead of kicking her out, why not start talking to her? Why not treat her for what she is their child and a human being.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#10)
    by wishful on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:39:12 AM EST
    Raygun's administration decided that orphans need no further survivors benefits at 19, so at least Keyes is consistent with the party line. And what does the system do with foster kids at 19? Maybe Keyes represents the "actions match the words" wing of his party for himself, not just for everyone else. This is not true of much of the rest of the Repug party as far as I can tell--for example, how many of our government's leaders' children/relatives are in the armed conflict in Iraq? How many Repug leaders actually earn all of their money as opposed to having inherited it, got it by cronyism, or other than through the labor of their backs, brains, or bootstraps alone? Anyone else have other Repug examples of "do as I say not as I do"? None of this is to say that I agree with them one whit. It is to point out that they for the most part don't agree with themselves when their own adherence to their stated values is examined.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:56:38 AM EST
    I though this fool believed in Jesus or something. If I believed in hell (I don't), there would be a hot spot saved for parents who abandon their children. Not even Dick Cheney disowned his own daughter, even he knew that hateful rhetoric is just a campaign plow to appease the Jesus freaks, not something a person with a heart actually does. I guess Keyes didn't get the memo. PS...NaNaNaNaNaNa Keyes has gay genes! Deal with that bro!

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:58:21 AM EST
    Steve A.- Check your snark detector, I think the batteries may have gone dead while you were reading cp's post. James Robertson-"Most conservatives put Keyes further out on the loony bin scale than Coulter. " Of course, that would explain why the RNC ran him for the senate;-) Face it, small minded bigotry is now an accepted 'family value' for conservatives.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:34:59 AM EST
    plow s/b ploy...Type faster than I think

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 07:54:07 AM EST
    So Chris Rock is being homophobic by talking about gays in a comedy routine (according to some). What is this then? Sailor, I think I forgot to turn the darn thing on.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:22:17 AM EST
    I love the folks in the "pro-family," "traditional family values" crowd that clearly don't understand what it means to actually value their own families. Alan Keyes joins the ranks of Phyllis Schlafly (gay son), CA's state Sen. Pete Knight(gay son), Newt Gingrich (gay sister), Randall Terry of Operation Rescue (gay son), and others. All of them have disowned their gay relatives for being gay. While I do think that a right-winger with a gay kid may reveal that God has a sense of humor or might be trying to tell them something, overall there is no rhyme or reason to what kinds of families gay people come from-- because we come from all kinds of families. The only thing people really can control is how they treat their gay relative. In this case I admire the Cheneys, they have truly broken the mold. They not only spend time with Mary, she works for her father and her partner, Heather, appears regularly with the family as a member of the family in public events. However, the fact that the Cheneys can turn around and support the Federal Marriage Amendment exposes their own conflict and hypocrisy on the issue. But for right-wingers they've been surprisingly decent about Mary and Heather.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#16)
    by desertswine on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:42:09 AM EST
    Maya Keyes appears to be an exceptionaly brave and bright woman. Her only problem might be coping with any psychological scars that may have been drawn by her father.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:21:24 AM EST
    Keyes doesn't represent the right in general. Just like Churchill doesn't represent the left...in general. The difference to me is that Keyes is a member of the Republican Party (isn't he?), where I'm pretty sure Churchill is not a registered Democrat.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:24:12 AM EST
    Congrtas, TL, the toadies are taking the bait in droves. kdog, how come gay is surely a gene but, nope, male math skill most assuredly is not? It wouldn't have anything to do with ORTHODOXY, now would it?

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:28:50 AM EST
    In my opinion doc, you are born with your sexuality, math is learned. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion. I was never a math guy, the girls always got better grades than me. I wiped the floor with them in English though, until my late high school years when I stopped caring.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:31:57 AM EST
    You're entitled to your own opinion, kdog, but not your own facts. There is no evidence for a "gay" gene, while there is plenty of evidence that math ability is inherited.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:45:21 AM EST
    Such blather. To listen to these kids, the parents owe the kid room and board for life? And free college? What causes such an entitlement mentality for these lefty kids? She should have been kicked out, gay or not.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:57:25 AM EST
    "Keyes doesn't represent the right in general." Then why did the republicans run him for senate?

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 10:05:21 AM EST
    Shirley asks: "What causes such an entitlement mentality for these lefty kids? She should have been kicked out, gay or not." Tu ne dis pas - you're kidding, right? I've not meant too many 'lefty kids' (your words) that have an "entitlement mentality." That tends to be the domain of those raised by the minons of Rethugs and that ilk.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 10:05:30 AM EST
    What a phony pretense for getting all huffy. The Keyes girl is 19, living at home, badmouthing her folks, being a pain in the a** and he kicks her out. Good. That's what happens when responsible parents don't want to put up with abuse from rebellious kids. So she takes advantage of her father's fame, and blames his eviction on her gayness. Big deal. Kids say all kind of silly things, if they have an audience. Keyes has no obligation, legal or otherwise, to put up his ADULT DAUGHTER in his home, and to pay for her college. I would have done the same thing. [This commenter is limited to four comments a day and subject to re-banning for violating the commenting policy of the site.]

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 10:10:53 AM EST
    Shirley is Buckshot and has been limited to four comments a day under either name. S/he's a chatterer.. Dr. Ace has been limited to four a day for a long time, as is Ras and several others. Cliff and ppj (aka jim) are not limited so, you can scroll by their comments or read them, up to you. The commenter's name is always at the top of the comment so you can decide in advance whether to read or scroll by.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 10:25:32 AM EST
    ‘Maya, 19, says her parents cut her off because of who she is -- "a liberal queer." ‘ I would have kicked her out just for being liberal, not because she is queer. She is 19, an adult who is complaining that she is not getting her free ride! Typical LLL aptitude.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#27)
    by TChris on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:00:54 PM EST
    I am astonished at the right wing commenters here who presume that parents on the left give their kids a "free ride" into adulthood while parents on the right don't. This doesn't square with what I see on our local campus -- wealthy kids of wealthy parents driving the Lexus that daddy bought, wearing designer clothes, and sending the tuition bill home for the parents to pay. Maybe all these privileged kids come from parents on the political left, but I kinda doubt it.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:12:50 PM EST
    Good point TChris. Ace, My cousin is gay, he's about the same age as me. It was obvious since early childhhod to the whole family he was "different". Turns out that difference was his sexuality. I believe what I see, and my cousin was born gay. Regarding genes for math, I don't really have an opinion, though my first instinct is skepticism.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:21:44 PM EST
    The right has an unlimited list of reasons why things are not their responsibility. But what I see here is the attempt to caste an absolute lack of responsibility as being responsible. Although 19 is old enough to be responsible for certain things many kids are not fully matured and depending on the child may need more time, especially if they are struggling with a major issue such as sexual identity. I have 3 over the age of 18, and they are all different. My dughter is 23 but her maturity has always been a few years behind, but it was always improving. Should I have thrown her out of the house because she didn't fit some artifical time schedule. She has moved outon her own and is doing well. She just need more time. Raising kids is not like putting something in the oven and then at a prescribed time take it out of the oven and declare it done. But like most "compassionate conservatives" Mr Keyes can only see the world through his eyes and has no empathy for anyone who differs in the least. It is the role of others to conform to the one world view that is conservatism. Of course throwing 15 year olds into jail for 40 years also fits this rigid view. But its this rigid, self-focused, narrow view of the world that allows conservatives to ignore the plight of others, even their own children. Note, I understand that not all conservatives are like this, but Keyes is typical of that brand currently in power.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:24:36 PM EST
    My only problem with maya's perspective is this: Still, when I asked Maya whether she is glad her father lost the election, she stopped short. "Should you really be asking that question? I mean, I suppose there is a conflict, but I'm not sure I wanted him to lose. I disagree with nearly all his views, but he's very honest and has a lot of integrity." This is a ver conflicted daughter. I mean, the whole PREMISE of the article is that he's NOT honest about his daughter (as his hypothetical "If I had a lesbian daghter..." remark demonstrated) and therefore has NO integrity on the issue. Alan Keyes is a profoundly psychologically damaged guy. The word sociopathy comes to mind. To live in such angry and bitter prejudical territory is the realm of the emotionally disturbed. Hard to believe some of that anger and bitterness didn't seep into his daughter and their relationship. It obviously did. Best to Maya as she tries to filter out the damage and retain some kind of familial love. Best of

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:29:53 PM EST
    TChris, I agree with you and I am also astonished - that on the other hand, some here willingly and almost gleefully accept an obviously angry and hurt 19 year old's story of her parents motives as absolute fact. I truly hope that with time she and her parents can mend the rift between them.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:30:38 PM EST
    sorry, that was me at 1:29 PM

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#33)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:33:49 PM EST
    It sucks her parents don’t like her; maybe we wouldn’t either if we knew her. She can pay for her own school like most everyone else. “Maybe all these privileged kids come from parents on the political left, but I kinda doubt it.” While looking over the demographics after Nov. 2 I noticed, not unlike many others, that the more conservative a state was the poorer the population was in general. So, even if all those kids were liberal it wouldn’t necessarily mean liberals were more likely to give their kids a free ride. “I believe what I see, and my cousin was born gay.” This is a view that is often pushed by the left to answer the rights assertion that it is a choice. Of course it’s a choice, just like I chose to have sex or not. What I can’t understand is why anyone would care if, who, or what I have sex with.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:48:54 PM EST
    ...male math skill most assuredly is not? It wouldn't have anything to do with ORTHODOXY, now would it?
    i would suggest that if you can learn it, it probably is not genetic. pre-empting lame rebuttal: homosexuality is not learned, from family or culture, it involves genetics. unless you have that predisposition, the chances of you becoming homosexual are pretty limited to you experiencing an extended stay at any state/federal prison. math: repetitive memorization, anyone with the desire can be good at it.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    “math: repetitive memorization, anyone with the desire can be good at it.” My memory is horrible; when in school I forgot the combination to my locker several times a year, I have my home phone number written on the back of my drivers license, once I went an entire year thinking I was a year younger. I’m very good at math and physics because they are conceptual and not simple memorization. Great mathematicians, musicians, philosophers, poets, and so forth are born; cognitive skills are innate and as such likely inheritable.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:59:54 PM EST
    unnamed one, what on earth are you talking about? this is an exceptionally accomplished and expressive 19 year-old. or are you incapable of assessing an individual on her own merits, as opposed to generalizing and lumping her in with some mass of spoiled, lying, coddled teens? alan keyes has a record to be easily examined. i can make a perfectly rational assessment of the man's mind by listening to the actual PRODUCT of that mind. it's called using my own mind. and as if this is some kind of isolated case of conservatives turning on their gay kids. happens all the time, saw it all through my adolescence when I was going to the largest evangelical christian high school in america -- where love and forgiveness are taught, but only practiced in the abstract. in reality, fingers were pointed, people were cast out of the kingdom, and incredibly racist, prejudiced, you name it kind of crap was accepted and perpetuated. alan keyes reminds me of every hypocritical teacher i had there. and i'd take his daughter's word over his almost any day -- based entirely on my own assessment of their records of credibility. not, like you, on some generalization about how all teens are spoiled and blame their parents for everything.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:24:25 PM EST
    not, like you, on some generalization about how all teens are spoiled and blame their parents for everything. Dadler, I think you're really stretching here, I said nothing of the kind.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:04:35 PM EST
    Great mathematicians, musicians, philosophers, poets, and so forth are born; cognitive skills are innate and as such likely inheritable
    and that fits very neatly into your elitist philosophy, although like most of your ideas (i've observed), misdirected. all the occupations you mentioned, a high level of expertise can be obtained by anyone desiring to pursue those vocations, through repetitive memorization. btw: Main Entry: cog·ni·tive Pronunciation: 'käg-n&t-iv Function: adjective : of, relating to, or being conscious intellectual activity (as thinking, reasoning, remembering, imagining, or learning words) —cog·ni·tive·ly adverb none of that seems hereditary to me, of course i could be wrong.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:13:26 PM EST
    Dcotor Ace at February 15, 2005 10:31 AM There is no evidence for a "gay" gene, while there is plenty of evidence that math ability is inherited.
    i'm sure you have reference to back that entire statement up.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#40)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:17:30 PM EST
    “and that fits very neatly into your elitist philosophy” We have had very few discussions; far fewer than it would take to reasonably characterize my philosophy. I wont, and notice I haven’t, mash you into the cookie cutter, bleeding heart, American hating, nanny state liberal; not out of any deference to you but rather because it is lazy and stupid. You could do the same. “none of that seems hereditary to me, of course i could be wrong.” If it is innate it is almost certainly heritable. You're not suggesting that any of us could simply practice our ways to a Nobel Prize in physics or a Booker Prize, are you?

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:35:27 PM EST
    So what we have here is a 19 year old, out on her own (like so many others), with some obvious resentment for her parents (not unlike so many others), who can still manage to say, in her fathers DEFENSE "I disagree with nearly all his views, but he's very honest and has a lot of integrity." I'm getting the picture her family life isn't so bad afterall. BTW - Anyone who thinks Math is a memorization activity obviously lacks some serious cognitive skills.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 03:08:42 PM EST
    practice our ways to a Nobel Prize in physics or a Booker Prize, are you?
    uuuhhh, yeah!!!

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 03:17:52 PM EST
    i know were your going, like S.Hawkings, he was born with his abilities, yes. not!! he was born with a proclivity to achieve and understand physics, his current insights most certainly came from a repetitive association with his subject matter. oh, f...., i don't get to deep in these spaces, and definitely don't take them to serious. believe what you want, we all certainly do. you know the hardest job in the world..... attempt to convince a man(woman) that what s/he believes to be the truth, is not!!! you gents/gals have a good evening!!! ttyl

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 03:40:55 PM EST
    It some cases genetics produces absolute results, e.g. eye color, but many times the effects of genetics are not absolute. The effects can be better looked at as predispositions. For example, genetics play a role in high chloresterol and therefore heart disease. However, the effects can be changed to some degree by behavior. A proper diet combined with exercise can help counter the effects of genetics. There is a tendency to think of the effects of genetics as an all or none phenomenon. While this is true for something like eye or hair color, it isn't true when talking about more complicated systems like the endocrine system for example. The regulation of cholesterol may be affected by many different biochemical pathways and regulatory systems. A genetic anaomoly may only affect one peripheral pathway while another may affect a more central pathway and the results on a person would be different. Some people die of a heart attack in their 30's having lived a very healthy life style while someone else will die at 90 choking on a double cheeseberger. The evidence is mounting that homosexuality has a genetic component as does other complex behavioral issues/diseases like depression etc. Someone with depression can't just wish it away. Its very unlikely, as a rule, that homosexuals can be coverted to heterosexuals. Nature is strange, look at hermaphadites (spelling?) having different sets of external and internal sexual organs. Wishing won't chage that either. There is little doubt in my mind that genetics plays a role in intelligence. There is also little doubt that the early years of an infant have an incredible effect on the development of the child. So there are multiple factors, each of which is important, but their relative importance varies from person to person. Although one may through rote work teach everyone adding subtracting etc, there is no way that everyone can be taught how to solve nonlinear partial differential equations. Just like I could take music lessons until hell froze over and I still wouldn't be very good at it. So the bottom line is people are different for many mny reasons, some of which are not completely under their control. Why can't we just accept them?

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#45)
    by Aaron on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 08:11:29 PM EST
    Disclosure - I know both Maya and her father personally. I met them when I was a guest on his show on MSNBC, challenging him on his position on homosexuality. I think that they are both often mischacterized during any discussion. Alan reminds me of my brother (whom I love, though disagree with strongly), so though I can understand why people would make personal attacks on him, I believe that his beliefs are sincerely held and that he does not wish anyone ill will, particularly his daughter. But well-meaning does not equate to correct. But, I am writing for myself, not for either person, nor have I spoken to anyone about these thoughts. Karl Rover - Maya's not asking anyone for sympathy, she's just admitting, publicly, what she is (gay), despite the fact that it has semi-damaging ramifications for her. She never claims that she needs sympathy, in fact she noted that many more people have suffered far more than her. She's no stranger to what real suffering is like (and it's not missing out on Brown), given all the homeless gay American kids she knows, and the year she recently spent in India teaching. The worst part of this is the rift caused between her family - her inability to even talk to them, not any financial considerations. She would love her family if they were poor - but she'd still be sad if they supported her financially but ignored supporting her emotionally. Buckshot/Shirley/Burgerboy are incorrect. Maya has not and likely never will badmouth her folks (not her nature), unless you count being honest about her sexual orientation a betrayal of her father. She loves them and simply wishes that things were better at home. For example, if they could be more accepting like the Cheney's, this would be great. Maya has been supporting her father and his causes for a long time, including staying in the closet (as an adult) when she could have told the truth and made more trouble for him during his recent Senate race if she wanted to. Maya would likely disagree with Dadler. She doesn't think that her father is a sociopath. He disagrees with her sexual orientation to a great extent. That saddens her because she loves him and her mom and wishes that this wasn't an issue. But it is an issue, an issue that she must deal with and an issue she felt compelled to speak out about given the suffering she's seen in others who lack her celebrity and thus lack the platform she was given Monday. As Dr. King mentioned, there comes a point in time at which silence becomes betrayal, a point at which she reached recently after the death of a friend. People can say that they would have reacted sooner or later, given their personal preferences, but nobody knows her and her situation. I don't know if anyone is in a better position than her to judge when it was appropriate for her to take this stance, but it's certainly not me nor anyone else whose never faced a tough decision like that.

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:48:25 PM EST
    piggle wiggle, when did you CHOOSE to be gay?????

    Re: Family Values (none / 0) (#47)
    by wishful on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 04:47:45 PM EST
    AAron, nicely put.

    Family Values | 47 comments (47 topical)