Saturday Open Thread

There's another GOP Debate tonight. I'm not wtching.

The Super Bowl is tomorrow and probably won't watch that either but that's cuz I'm really work busy. I'm a big Cam fan so pulling for anthers.

Open Thread.

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    Dear God (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by smott on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:39:40 PM EST
    Christie destroyed Rubio.
    And then Rubio robotically repeated his little schpiel for the THIRD time in a row and Christie nailed him on it again.

    Christie on Rubios FL record :
    "That's not leadership, that's truancy."


    I might vote for anyone (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:00:44 PM EST
    Who DIDNT wear a flag pin.

    Madeleine Albright: (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:21:34 PM EST
    "There's a special place in hell for women who don't" support Clinton.

    I confess to having been brutally surprised by the '08 backstabbing.  The ease with which wedges were driven between women and the vote for Clinton makes one realize: Nothing unites people like their willingness to be divided.

    I mentioned this in the last thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:27:57 PM EST
    It's pretty unbelievably tone deaf thing to say.  But to be completely fair she actually SAID "women who don't stand up for women".   But it was pretty clear what she meant.

    What's worse than that is she (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:42:52 PM EST
    said this with Clinton at her side, and Clinton's reaction is what may be more damaging than just what Albright said.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:51:37 PM EST
    It was definitely the Hillary laugh but I thought beneath it you could see alarm.  And OMFG I have to act like this was the biggest joke ever.

    Seriously what else could she do?  Grab the mic from Allbright and smack her upside her head?


    She looked a little surprised (none / 0) (#43)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:02:14 PM EST
    I may have missed something. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:06:50 PM EST
    I didn't see a problem with Albright's statement.  I didn't see a problem with Clinton's reaction, a laugh.

    IMO, that was the really Hillary poking through the campaign greasepaint.  With all the dullards and sycophants and stage managed b/s that comprise her every days, she doesn't get much chance to interact with people at her own level.


    Personally I don't have a problem (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:11:49 PM EST
    I know what she meant and didn't mean, I think.  My point was politically it was way dumb.  See comments in this thread and around the web.  It was a very impolitic thing to say.  At this time.  In this race.  IMO.

    I also think (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:20:02 PM EST
    That, as I said, Hillary being as politically astute as she is was not as happy with it as she looked.

    Just my opinion.


    I did a quick google search on it, and guess what? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:30:31 PM EST
    The vast majority of hits for that search bring up right wing sites reporting and commenting on it.

    That's why it was so politically dumb of them. Sanders supporters are certainly going to think it's insulting, and it won't change their votes at all. But right wingers are hoovering up every single faux pas to throw in her face if she's the nominee in November.

    The Clinton campaign is staffed by the same group of people who failed in 2008. Is there no one on that team that an exert some control over the message?


    I don't think the politics problem (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:33:34 PM EST
    Is on the right.  

    She's Hillary. She's going to get hit (none / 0) (#60)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:39:17 PM EST
    from all sides. I'm just saying, why give them even more ammunition?

    Yeah, just dumb (none / 0) (#83)
    by ruffian on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:08:18 PM EST
    I read someplace that it is a quote from one of her books or speeches, and I can see it being fine in another context. But not this one.

    The unity question (none / 0) (#58)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:35:45 PM EST
    The mutual support question has been a long time issue for women at multiple levels, Howdy.  It is difficult; it has been very real; it particularly exists in younger age groups where some of the struggles of the past are foreign to those who have not yet faced the ceilings.  Not to complain, but just to say.

    Older friends of mine who are Black have noted the age division too with regard to sons/daughters who have benefited from the earlier struggles of their parents, grandparents.  It is so important to see that progress, as my friends note; but, there are the underbelly issues alluded to here.  

    Perhaps, those same matters are seen in the LGBTQ communities.  If so, perhaps we can understand the challenges faced.

    Request: Please consider and look into what Steinem and Albright have said ... and the important "why."  There are many legitimate reasons for their statements ... and, while the divide & conquer tactics & reality long challenging the advancement of women to all positions in our country are lessening, they are still an unfortunate reality. "Divide & Conquer" has always been a powerful opponent.  (Yes, I am an unabashed feminist.)


    One can be an unabashed feminist (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:48:22 PM EST
    --as I am-- and still think the comments were insulting and politically stupid.

    Albright didn't seem to have much concern (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:01:33 PM EST
    for women when she officiously wrote off and washed her hands of the suffering of Iraqi women and children under the sanctions regime..

    In that regard, we all have unclean hands (none / 0) (#89)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:32:53 PM EST
    If not only Iraq, then throughout the world.  Mother Theresa is considered to be a saint by many.  Most politicians, unfortunately, are not.

    I do appreciate your comment, jondee. Yet, that comment begs the question ... or, at least, avoids the immediate matter and changes the subject.  (But, sometimes, we all need to do that.)


    Well ... to each her own (3.50 / 2) (#74)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:56:49 PM EST
    Some of us older types have lived through the division we are getting glimpses of today.  

    Life experiences differ.  This aspect hit home to me and some of my contemporaries who live to tell the same tale.  As a matter of fact, I happened to read Gloria Steinem's reported remark before we left for dinner ... and I called out to my husband to say "Take a look ... see, my reaction of the classic divide is not nuts ... see what Steinem says" (etc.)  I really don't want to complain about this reality; but, it does have a deja vu quality to it.  An age divide? Probably.

    It is just a core personal matter to me.


    That older type meme (none / 0) (#105)
    by MO Blue on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:07:39 PM EST
    IMO is not going to be any more successful in getting women to vote for HRC than insulting young women (and yes, Steinem's comment was an insult).

    The majority of the women who comment here have lived through the same period of time as you and have faced as many or possibily more gender related problems as you have but not all think that automatically pulling the lever for the "f" should be the deciding factor in casting your vote.


    The age group divide (none / 0) (#107)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:24:16 PM EST
    in toto and in gender is a finding of the many polls to date.  Fivethirtyeight.com (w/Nate Silver and Harry Enten and Claire Malone) offers various comments from time to time.

    Yes a large majority of older women, (none / 0) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:23:20 AM EST
    especially in the 65+ age group support HRC in the Dem primaries.

    But I would think her objective would be to increase her share of votes from women in all age groups. She will definitely need them come November.

    The old adage of you can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar could be applied here.

    In looking at various Dem blogs, I haven't read any woman saying that they will change their votes to HRC because of Albright or Steinem's comments but I have read many who were offended or insulted by the comments.


    Well, golly, then I guess there are an (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:50:21 PM EST
    awful lot of women headed for that "special place in hell" for not supporting Carly Fiorina, huh?

    Part of being a fully actualized human being who happens to be female means that I take no back seat to any man - or any other woman - when it comes to believing in my ability and capability to make the decisions that I believe are right for me.

    When I hear Madeleine Albright declare that there is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women, she's saying she has so little respect for my autonomy as a woman and as a person that she would consign me to hell if I decided not to support Clinton in the primary.  

    I hope Clinton was cringing on the inside, but I am here to tell you that her seemingly delighted guffaw at Albright's "honesty" will turn off a lot of women - and not just the younger ones.


    If they were looking for or tending to (none / 0) (#78)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:59:25 PM EST
    be turned off, Anne, I'm sure they will be :)

    Unity with women (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by MO Blue on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:59:04 PM EST
    because they are women. Unity with Blacks because they are black.

    Really bad premise IMO.

    Women supporting the woman in 2008 would have gotten us a V.P. named Sarah Palin. Women supporting the woman in 2012 would have gotten us a president named Michele Bachmann. Blacks supporting black men would give Carson an increased chance of becoming president this year.


    A good point as far as it goes ... (none / 0) (#80)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:02:46 PM EST
    But, one may also recall that unity is a central aspect of modern Civil Rights movements.  The group & the individual ... always an American dilemma.  (And, I might add, a very personal dilemma as to approach.)

    Unity in movements that you support (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:27:11 PM EST
    can and do bring about change either for good or ill.

    Unity for the sake of unity, when you oppose the policies that would be the basis for the unified group is self defeating. Once again unity in 2008 or in 2012 would have resulted in bat Sh!t crazy women being a V.P. or president.

    It is not to HRC's benefit to have her surgates threaten or insult young women that she will need if she becomes the Democratic nominee.


    If Hillary Clinton were (none / 0) (#103)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:05:34 PM EST
    Sarah Palin, your point would be well-taken.  Yet, even in the heat of political battle, we both know that HRC is a good Democrat ... not your kind of preferred Democrat ... but, a good Democrat who represents many good Democrats.  For that reason, we are not talking about an outlier.

    Sooner or later, civil rights movements succeed by sticking together ... the individuals therein rarely agree on everything, but they support each other eventually in whatever way they can.  The obvious exception, of course, is the Pallinesque version of Uncle Tom or Aunt Jenny.

    Again, MO Blue, I want to say that I respect your arguments and position in this matter.  That I disagree with your specific political choices does not mean--in any way--that I bear any bad feelings.  In my book, you always fight hard and you are as true blue to your position as they come.


    We are talking about (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by MO Blue on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:32:58 PM EST
    There is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women. (no qualifiers)

    We are talking about casting your vote for a candidate because she is a woman and condemning women who chose not to do so. We are talking about presenting the choice (but only if the candidate is a Democrat) as a Civil Rights issue.

    We are talking about HRC surgates insulting young women and labeling them as nothing more than boy crazy, brainless idiots because they have chosen not to support HRC.

     We are talking about turning off a segment of voters that HRC will need to win in November if she becomes the nominee.

    So far HRC has failed to make the case that her presidency is a Civil Rights issue or an issue which all women should unite behind. Personally, I don't think that insults and condemnations by HRC's surgates will achieve that objective. In fact, I think those actions will drive women not currently supporting her away. YMMV


    That's because women are too diverse (2.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 01:12:54 AM EST
    You can divide women.

    You can't divide African Americans.

    this is why women will still be, and maybe forever be, not in my words, but in John Lennon's words, "woman is ni**er of the world."

    i really think this is why Albright said something emotional and unproductive.

    she doesn't understand why women can't unite the way other oppressed people united.


    One add-on, MO Blue (none / 0) (#113)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:38:51 PM EST
    The Albright comments would be interesting to hear. Audio can be very important in sardonic march on type humor.  Also: The audience may not be what you suspect.

    I listened to her comment (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 01:04:31 AM EST
    It really didn't get any better IMO with full audio.

    Humor, if that is what it was meant to be, is often used in an attempt to mask offensive statements. Can't you take a joke? Har har har


    I posted a video clip, above; (none / 0) (#115)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:41:33 PM EST
    or you can find one online if you prefer to find it yourself.

    It's not just about hearing what she said, it's about seeing Clinton's reaction to it.


    christinep, (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by NYShooter on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:10:51 AM EST
    if I may be so bold as to try and put into context what this dispute is about.

    I try to approach chatting on these kinds of sites the same way I do/did in my work: calmly, rationally, and logically. When the subject is Hillary Clinton, I don't think like a fan, or, supporter (which I am) but, as a trusted advisor. Obviously twisting, contorting, and bending things my "client" says or does in the best possible light even when he/she screws up isn't really being helpful to them, now is it? You do that when you're talking to their adversaries. If you really want to help your client you tell them they messed up when they truly did mess up. Obviously, you don't want them continuing to do/say damaging things.

    Albright said a politically dumb thing. Hillary should have just done a polite, minimal smile, and moved on as quickly as possible. We're not talking about the long term feminist movement issue here, in this venue. What's appropriate in one context may not be in another. We're saying that for Hillary's own political benefit, and that's the real context here, the comment, and Hillary's hearty response was inappropriate.

    And, just one more thing. Your little imbroglio here tonight is somewhat similar to the situation at the end of the Iowa caucus. I stated that it wasn't very smart for Hillary, and her team, to have behaved the way they did that night. And, I don't have to tell you, I got pretty well cremated for saying that. "A win is a win, is a win, is a WIN, Period!" Like I didn't know it was a win? That was one of the most bizarre episodes I can remember. However, the rest of the world saw it as a win, by two tenths of one point, which was truly shocking, based on the polling & expectations, and the way Sander's people were shut out when there were legitimate questions at the end was politically short sighted, and, I believe, damaging. The reporting afterwards vindicated my analysis pretty much.

    I think being honest about the candidate is far more valuable than shouting, "we won, we won, we won," when we're already part of choir.    


    well (none / 0) (#126)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 01:13:54 AM EST
    she won.

    it is what it is.


    The moral I think is (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:25:22 PM EST
    that they're people with all their own idiosyncracies and hopes and dreams and ideals before they're some homogenous, uniform mass called "women".

    but i wonder (none / 0) (#122)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:52:00 AM EST
    if men dont benefit from women having their idiosyncracies and hopes and dreams and ideals before they're some homogenous, uniform mass called "women".  men might benefit from that?

    what would have happened in the civil rights movement if African Americans had their own idiosyncracies and hopes and dreams and ideals before they're some homogenous, uniform mass called "African Americans"?  hmmmm.

    was that offensive? well think about how your comment might have been offensive to people trying to break the glass ceiling of the presidency.


    IMO a woman selling a grass roots (none / 0) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 01:33:19 AM EST
    campaign, with a history of taking on the big guys, could unite the majority of women of all age groups behind her. Hopefully, that will happen some time in the near future.

    So dumb (none / 0) (#91)
    by lilburro on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:37:23 PM EST
    amazing how Clinton's campaigns have the ability to shoot themselves in the foot. They need to work on their messaging...but not like that

    I Don't Agree With That Statement (none / 0) (#121)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:46:31 AM EST
    But first of all Mr Natural presented that quote completely incorrectly and probably dishonestly (Albright was advocating for ALL women even if some women disagree, that's fine, but that was Albright's intent) but no one called it a trolling comment... hmmmm.

    but i will say this just in a general sense, if Clinton becomes president, I do think that is a WIN for all women, even young women.

    If Bernie defeats her, I think that is a defeat for women, even young women...

    ok here's the thing i think is funny...

    i don't agree with that statement as it was expressed by Albright, that means i would not have expressed what she was trying to say that way...

    ok... But at least that statement is not passive aggressive insinuation and innuendo.  Albright had something to say and she said it.


    Is Cruz constitutionally eligible to be President? (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:54:36 PM EST
    Two leading liberal constitutional scholars (Laurence Tribe of Harvard, and Jack Balkin of Yale) debate the point before a roomful of conservative Harvard Law students. If you have half an hour to devote to some high-level discussion of a fascinating, difficult question about what an arcane phrase in Article II of the Constitution means ("natural born citizen"), and how serious people go about addressing such questions, all the while having fun doing so, this is the place for you.

    Two More Gone (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:58:35 PM EST
    In the last few days two more prominent musicians died, and I had a connection to each of them.

    Maurice White was a founding member of Earth, Wind and Fire.  My longtime associate Bill Champlin, the front man for the band I roadied for, the Sons of Champlin, received one of his two Grammys for writing the EW&F hit, "After the Love is Gone."

    I met Dan Hicks when I was 19, and he was a featured performer at a folksinging camp I attended in 1965.  The next year he turned up as a member of The Charlatans, the first SF hippie band, but far from the last.

    When I moved pianos, I moved Dan's piano for him several times.  Very nice, gracious guy.

    oh damn, repack (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:15:46 PM EST
    now it's hitting home.

    Dan Hicks was a long time favorite.  "And little Betty Lou, Had a date, but didn't wanna..."  Where's the Money?

    The only thing you won't pick up, is a ringing telephone, ... has set my mind to wondering, is this my happy home.

    They were introduced to me by a girl (a Californian! (a woman)) I met in Mexico City at the tender age of 16.  

    Geez.  This sucks.


    Hicks' wife (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:04:54 PM EST
    "My darling darling husband left this earth early this morning.  He was true blue, one of a kind, and did it all his own way always.  To all who loved him, know that he will live forever in the words, songs, and art that he spent his life creating. He worked so hard on each and every detail -- they are all pure Dan.

    - KQED

    A little Canned Music to play him offstage.


    Just another Youtubey Sunrise... (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:36:02 PM EST
    Dan Hicks: I Scare Myself

    I'm an Old Cowhand

    I know all the songs that the cowboys know,
    'bout the big corral where the doggies go,
    Cause I heard them all on the radio
    Yippee Yi Yo Kiyaa...

    This was the first music I could share with my friends.  I've always been behind the curve.  But when I came home from that interlude, for the first time in my life, I'd found something I could show my friends, something they hadn't heard first.


    The ABC voiceover (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:05:57 PM EST
    Announcer sounds exactly like the Firesign Theater announcer.

    I can't believe I just heard (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:30:56 PM EST
    A candidate say a woman should be legally forced to die in childbirth.

    I did hear that, right?

    I'm not watching the debate (none / 0) (#59)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:37:58 PM EST
    Who said that? (Maybe I shouldn't ask...was it Mr. Cruzify?)

    Rubio (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:43:29 PM EST
    No exception for lifre of the mother.  Apparently it's his stated position for a while.

    Jeezus. (none / 0) (#64)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:44:58 PM EST
    Still think he would be (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:47:45 PM EST
    A big scary threat to Hillary?  I've always thought he would be the easiest of all of them.   For that reason among many others.

    I don't know if he would (none / 0) (#71)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:52:25 PM EST
    I don't recall ever saying I thought he would be (did I?), I just think he's candidate #1 for the GOP establishment. Personally, I think Kasich would be tougher for her to face in the general (not that he's got much of a chance).

    No sorry (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:55:37 PM EST
    Just meant that is conventional wisdom.  See Trevor.   He is the font of conventional wisdom.

    All the dumb sh!t pundits (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:56:52 PM EST
    Are now regurgitating this Marco krap.

    Rubio's repeating his script tonight (none / 0) (#111)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:33:19 PM EST
    sure does support your theory about him.

    I had forgotten what an air head I thought he was, and the reaching for the water bottle during is SOU response.


    The "women's issue" is very real, Howdy (none / 0) (#62)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:43:40 PM EST
    Christie had (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by KeysDan on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:20:30 PM EST
    a good night, feisty but not bullying, as is his custom.  His background as a prosecutor showed in his take down of Rubio.  Kasich, too, did well.  As he said, conservative but also positive. So, apparently, they are not mutually exclusive after all,  At least for him.

     Jeb was better because he was not attacked very much by Trump or others.  Cruz was so disingenuous in everything--targeted carpet bombing? Maybe Mohawk carpeting and also use it for enhanced interrogation. I was waiting for him to say he would select Liz Cheney as a running mate--Cruz/Cheney 2016...Youthful torture is us.

    Trump just presided over the gang, sort of out-classed by even the worst of them, but it does not matter, he will be thought to have done just fine.  Carson was really hot under the collar of his freshly laundered shirt.  Cruz had better hope that Carson is asking his friend, God, to keep that knife sheathed. Maybe saving it for Benghazi.

     And speaking of the worst of them, Rubio clearly did not stay hydrated, although the camera did catch him taking a swig of bottled water.  The cameras did try to help him out with a shot of his family in the audience, but all I could think of is what if his wife or daughter was raped,..would his commitment to "life" hold.

    Hillary as the ogre was accompanied on several occasions by Bernie.  Rubio is looking forward to a debate with Hillary, but mostly Obama.

    Saw a description of Rubio tonight (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Coral Gables on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:37:34 PM EST
    as having the worst debate performance since James Stockdale.

    Headline in New York Magazine (none / 0) (#100)
    by Coral Gables on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:56:11 PM EST
    Rubio Implodes in New Hampshire Debate By Acting Like a Broken Robot

    Exactly, (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by NYShooter on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:15:29 PM EST
    You wouldn't think a politician would be caught so flat footed, and, paralyzed by stage fright but we saw it happening tonight. When they're doing their pre-debate rehearsals, I know they can't think of every possible scenario that might come up, but, it's surprising they didn't give him a response for when he's hit with a question that really stuns him. I mean, how many times have we seen a politician asked a question like, "how will you stop illegal immigration," and the Pol will answer how he'll balance the budget by getting rid of waste & fraud. And, rarely will a "journalist call him on it."

    Any inexperienced, non-politician whose done any public speaking can empathize with how he must have felt. Talk about, "deer in the headlights!"


    Christie taking down (none / 0) (#102)
    by Coral Gables on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:02:01 PM EST
    I went to a George McGovern rally (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:26:06 PM EST
    He was pure--just like Bernie.  A genuine WWII war hero who had received the Distinguished Flying Cross.  He had the youth vote, as it was called, because he was anti-war (just as Bernie was when he opposed the Iraq War)  he had the youth who did not want to get drafted.

    McGovern supporters were all about overcoming the systemic corruption of the Democratic Party in 1968 and Mayor Daley controlling the convention and the streets. And those from 1968 who supported Eugene McCarthy were not be denied.  No more special interest corruption.  The liberals wanted to have their candidate, and the establishment be damned.  After all, what did the Democratic Establishment do except get us mired in Vietnam?

    I know how excited the Bernie supporters are.  Past experience, which you may or may not have had, does influence me.  Bernie looks just like George McGovern to me, and I loved McGov.  

    So, experience has its merits, even if that concept is expressed to you in a way that you find offensive.


    Likewise, I went to McGovern rallys (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:31:40 PM EST
    Even shook his hand. As a twentysomething, I was honored to vote for him.  The tears fell hard as the Repubs turned him upside-down; they fell again that night that Nixon walloped him electorally.  

    I noticed (none / 0) (#117)
    by MKS on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:01:25 AM EST
    that McGovern's wife, Eleanor, was only 5'2" and he was so much taller and towered over her.  The girl I was crazy in love with back then was also 5'2", and I  thought that if the difference in height between McGovern and Eleanor was no big deal, it would work for me too.  5'2" and eyes of blue.

    Strange sometimes the thoughts of one's youth.


    Let me suggest--with all due respect-- (3.50 / 2) (#94)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:41:31 PM EST
    shoephone: Empathy of other women' reality in their experiences is a good quality.  I recognize that in the significant contributions of Ms. Steinem and Ms. Albright ... they are courageous women who have blazed a trail for other women ... I respect them and their opinions mightily.  And, I find particularly offensive the rush by yourself to mock their personal observations.

    Maybe it is you, shoephone, that is the one who should get off your high-horse.  

    Try again (none / 0) (#96)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:44:01 PM EST
    Because, so far, you are dead wrong.

    An objective tidbit (none / 0) (#99)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:55:07 PM EST
    Should you choose to check out age correlations with political attitudes & preferences, you might find interesting the analytical aspects evidenced by polls of what Steinem loosely refers to as the adherence of younger women to "the boys."  (BTW, that is not unexpected ... some might say that "it is ever thus.)

    Addendum: I travelled to DC often (none / 0) (#97)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:48:49 PM EST
    My work station was not in DC, however.  

    Almost forgot: If you need to convince yourself that I am "desperate" for anything, then do so.  But, my words at TL are not about convincing anyone because most come here already convinced in their positions.  My words are an expression--usually--of my beliefs and positions in writing.  I find that worthwhile in itself.

    BTW, if my writing style doesn't suit you, that may be your issue... not mine.  Good luck to you in your political endeavors.


    Still.Missing.The.Point (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by shoephone on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:15:18 AM EST
    Steinem and Albright made unnecessary political errors, and Clinton is the one who is going to suffer for it. Think about that. Their accomplishments twenty, thirty, forty years ago are irrelevant to this presidential campaign if their efforts in the past two days only serve to further cement the problems Clinton has in drawing young women to her side.

    Older women scolding younger women never, ever works out well. It just comes off as bitchy and patronizing. It always backfires.

    I've been saying this for weeks: Clinton needs new messaging, new advisers and new surrogates. Otherwise it really is going to be deja vu all over again.

    As for luck in my political endeavors, thanks. I'm happy to report that a project I embarked on ten years ago is starting to pay off with action from the state legislature. The people of Washington may actually see millions of dollars freed up to fund much needed programs. We're about to see a lot more accountability and transparency from corporations. Citizen activism scores one for the team.


    Let me suggest, christine, that (none / 0) (#104)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:06:27 PM EST
    smart, accomplished women are as capable as anyone of saying and doing dumb things - and what smart, accomplished Madeleine Albright did, in that unscripted moment, was say something dumb.  Hillary Clinton, in finding Albright's comment to be guffaw-worthy, managed to put a stamp of approval on Albright's comment.

    It doesn't matter to me, and it's not going to matter to a lot of women, and some men, too, what Albright's accomplishments are, they're just going to have the same viscerally uncomfortable reaction.

    Somehow, "vote for her, or go to hell" doesn't seem like a winning slogan, and that's what Albright's comment boils down to.


    it's true (none / 0) (#123)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 12:59:00 AM EST
    with Albright being a woman people will just have a visceral reaction to her comments and NEVER take into account her accomplishments.

    that's how it works.  it's called sexism.


    shoshone's comment (none / 0) (#116)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:51:48 PM EST
    was deleted for name calling and personal insults.

    I gone (none / 0) (#1)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 06:28:14 PM EST
    watch debate tonight because I know how to watch for since the NYTimes and more told me what to watch for. I can just watch and see if they right in telling me good watching points.

    One thing I know for sure thanks to good help:

    Rubio is the top one to watch cuz he finish third in Iowa.

    It could well be (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 06:36:29 PM EST
    The longest three hours on Marcos life.  

    It's three hours? Lordy. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:00:50 PM EST
    I have it set to record in case I have to stop for a sanity break.

    Wonder how Marco's going to deal with his cotton-mouth...when he gave his post-caucus speech, I thought he was going to eat his face, what with all the lip-licking.

    I expect Trump to be in full bully-mode with Jeb - I read somewhere that W used to bully his younger brother, Jeb, when they were kids, and that's why Jeb doesn't handle it well when Trump sticks it to him.

    I expect Cruz to be orders of magnitude more insufferable than ever; I can't wait to see if they ask him about the dirty tricks in Iowa.

    And if we drink every time Christie says, "former federal prosecutor" we'll all be on our asses by 9:00.

    Buckle up, folks!


    Yep 3 hours (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:04:14 PM EST
    Maybe Jeb could have W come onstage and stand next to him to intimidate Donald.  Or better yet Barbara.

    Ha (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:48:08 PM EST
    Shots all around

    Lol (none / 0) (#5)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    I will read about it tomorrow. But you are right, they are going to hammer him left and right. Hope he has those tap dancing boots on.
    Bush Christie and Kasich have him lined up in their sights.
    Not exactly sure where Cruz and Trump will be throwing their bombs, I guess Marco will get some, but I still think they will toss the heavy artillery in each others direction.

    Ok (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:12:23 PM EST
    Officially looking forward to the candidates just to get these insufferable pundits off the stage.

    I hope to god there is not an hour of this.

    That (none / 0) (#7)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:18:31 PM EST
    was weird

    Ben has fire in his eyes (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:24:36 PM EST
    I think it's fire.  

    Ha (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:25:42 PM EST
    I will not savage senator Cruz but allow me to savage senator Cruz.

    I saw this before (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:33:32 PM EST
    Marco is trying to embrace the comparison with Obama.  I would say a risky strategy.

    Like I said (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:44:22 PM EST

    Christie is (none / 0) (#11)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:35:54 PM EST
    bashing Rubio, calling him on his canned talking points. Rubio just keeps circling back to them.

    Rubio gettling flayed alive (none / 0) (#29)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:03:04 PM EST
    by Christie.

    Rubios's going back to his memorized speech after Christie accused him of using a memorized speech was just an act of beauty.


    I guess the moderators (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:39:04 PM EST
    Didn't get the memo about Kasich being the flavor if the week

    I (none / 0) (#14)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:40:20 PM EST
    noticed that.

    I bet he made that (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:42:52 PM EST
    Town hall joke up on the spot.  Don't you think?

    He (none / 0) (#18)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:44:43 PM EST
    is the one guy I could have a beer with.

    I was joking (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:45:47 PM EST
    That was so transparently rehearsed

    of (none / 0) (#22)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:48:16 PM EST
    course but he still comes as the most human of them all.

    Pretty low bar dude (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:49:33 PM EST
    lol. More to the point, he's the kind of guy (none / 0) (#26)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:56:15 PM EST
    you could reunite Pink Floyd with.

    Jeez (none / 0) (#15)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:42:21 PM EST
    A question posed suggesting - advocating - preemptive strikes against North Korea.

    What is happening to our country?

    Could I ask (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:47:31 PM EST
    What the hell is an American student doing in North Korea?  I'm assuming they were IN North Korea.

    I don't know if it's the case here, (none / 0) (#31)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:09:11 PM EST
    but there are a bunch of starry eyed fools who travel there to plant bibles, because, of course, what's wrong with North Korea is an insufficiency of bibles.

    OMG (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:10:34 PM EST
    Then why do we care?  Get why they care tho.

    Is it my (none / 0) (#24)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:54:22 PM EST
    imagination... or they not asking anything to Trump?

    Rubio is really (none / 0) (#25)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:55:50 PM EST
    tap dancing around his gang of 8 bill.

    That answer (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 07:57:15 PM EST
    Made no sense

    Actually, (none / 0) (#37)
    by NYShooter on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:37:13 PM EST
    compared to his other answers I thought his immigration answer was pretty good.

    It's pretty interesting though how it looks like there's a conspiracy among them all...."tonight we take out Rubio." And, it's working pretty well.

    One by one, that's going to be the plan until they get to Trump.

    You saw how nuts he got when Megyn Kelly asked him about what he's called women. The closest thing tonight has been the eminent domain for a limo parking lot.

    Oh, and when he boasted how he's going to take the jobs back from China, Japan, etc., no one thought to ask him where his "Trump" brand shirts were being made? Answer: China, Mexico, and Brazil.

    And, after he, somehow, got through that answer, the next follow up should be: "Whatever happened to your shirts?" Answer: "Bankrupt."

    And, there's about 100 similar examples of his business prowess, and, his concern for the "little-guy.".


    Trump (none / 0) (#30)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:07:45 PM EST
    is a relief from the other people on that stage.

    What does that even say?

    Gotta say (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:09:13 PM EST
    I loved slapping the audience for being "a bunch of doners"

    Christie (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:20:15 PM EST
    Is having a good night so far

    Christie is making (none / 0) (#45)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:05:52 PM EST
    Rubio look like Dan Quayle....

    And Christie repeatedly nailed Rubio a la Lloyd Bentsen, "You're no Jack Kennedy."

    Rubio's debate debacle was one of the all time great implosions.....Especially because it was not a one time gaffe like Gerald Ford's, but an inability to leave his prepared speech.

    I think The Donald benefits most.


    IMO Donald was going to be first anyway (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:08:41 PM EST
    I think you might see others like Christie or Kasich rise a bit.

    Even (none / 0) (#50)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:12:34 PM EST
    Bush might gain, the pundit on ABC called it revenge of the governors, I agree.

    Yep, (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:16:02 PM EST
    Rubio now sweating a lot like Nixon.

    Man, I could feel sorry for this guy.


    It's sickening (none / 0) (#40)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 08:51:44 PM EST
    to see Cruz dragging his sister's life through the mud.

    What would you expect from a guy (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:05:47 PM EST
    who doesn't think waterboarding is torture, and who wants to bring back "enhanced" interrogation?

    Ha (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:44:52 PM EST
    Carson - don't bury me I'm not dead.  No matter how it looks.

    Donald skewers Cruz and the all laugh.

    First pundit (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:46:15 PM EST
    What the hell happened to Marco?

    Told ya so upthread.

    Marco Rubio is not human. (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:57:59 PM EST
    He is a wind-up doll who, tonight, seemed to have a glitch in his program, re-setting numerous times to not just the same topic, but the same, exact words, delivered in exactly the same tone - which, by the way, is flat: it gets louder, but it's the same tone.  It's robotic.

    The folks at NY magazine, who were tweeting throughout the debate, said Rubio was channeling Bircher memes all night long.  I'm not really up on my Bircher lingo, but Rubio just made my head hurt.

    Who was that Mary Catherine woman - her questions were so loaded with right-wing tropes I couldn't stand it.


    Mary Catherine (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:03:22 PM EST
    Wants a job at FOX.   Or maybe she has one.

    Mary Catherine Ham (none / 0) (#114)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:39:18 PM EST
    A protege of Hugh Hewitt.  The conservatives are trying to boost her career as a GOP pundit.

    It does look like Rubio (none / 0) (#68)
    by christinep on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:48:47 PM EST
    is the designated loser tonight.  My, my ... it could get complicated-ly interesting.  

    Watching Hillary and her water carriers (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:50:43 PM EST
    play the "female" card reminds me watching politicians in my youth explain that I must vote for them because they were white and I was white.

    Not a nickels worth of difference.

    When did we decide that women are too dumb to figure out who will the best leader for the country?

    Hint: I don't think we have.

    Well, just out of curiosity, (none / 0) (#72)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 09:54:30 PM EST
    have you been a big supporter of any non-white candidates? (Not a trick question.)

    Yes. (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:41:44 PM EST

    Now, any other questions?


    Yes. Who? (none / 0) (#112)
    by shoephone on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:36:44 PM EST
    no the thread is not about you (none / 0) (#129)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 02:55:17 AM EST
    so please don't ask people if they have questions for you. Open thread is not an invitation to make the thread about you.

    Donalds wife (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:15:25 PM EST
    Is really stunning

    Former model, (none / 0) (#86)
    by caseyOR on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:26:38 PM EST
    I believe.

    yes (none / 0) (#130)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 03:32:35 AM EST
    She's is beautiful and very striking looking. She is the former Melania Knauss, 5'11" tall, has been married to him since 2005 -- their son Barron was born a year later. Photo of the three here. This one's good too. He seems more relaxed around them.

    After studying architecture and design at Slovenia's University of Ljubljana, she began modeling regularly, working for fashion houses in Milan, and later, in the pre-Mrs. Trump years, posing for photographers like Helmut Newton and Mario Testino, and even appearing in the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition in 2000.

    She has also been in Vogue.

    In November 1998, Melania met Donald at a Fashion Week party hosted by Paolo Zampolli, an Italian entrepreneur and founder of the ID Models management agency...Melania was 28, and Donald was a father of four, 24 years her senior, and recently separated from his second wife, Marla Maples.

    She's fluent in Slovenian, Italian and French. She's taught Barron how to speak Slovenian.

    She was born in the former Yugoslavia, came here from Slovenia on a work visa in 1996 and got her green card in 2001. A year after she married Trump (2006), she became an American citizen.  and became an American citizen in 2006, the year after she and Donald were married.
    He's lucky to have her.


    I've seen too many movies (none / 0) (#93)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:41:10 PM EST
    You say stunning, I think of Tasers, I think Ilsa, She Wolf of the West Wing...

    Doess have a bit of a predator look (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 10:49:44 PM EST
    Know what I like tho?  She doesn't stand there and gaze on him as if transfixed and hanging on his every word like the typical political wife.

    See Mrs Christie.


    Yeah, the transfixed thing never did it for me (none / 0) (#101)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Feb 06, 2016 at 11:00:01 PM EST
    Reality would be if they stared off into space because they've heard every freakin' thing he said a million times alread.