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Post-Election Analysis

Lest the cheerleaders overtake the conversation, here is some balance:

[hat tip to Unfair Witness]

This is not to say I agree with all of the content in these posts and articles--I am just trying to encourage everyone to read both sides, before buying into the freedom and democracy or elections=success memes. Simply stated, we are still a long way from Kansas.

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  • Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:08:03 PM EST
    "Simply stated, we are still a long way from Kansas ..." Actually you're a couple thousand miles behind Kansas, and going like hell in the wrong direction.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:32:18 PM EST
    My guess is that if we end up with a democratic Iraqi government of any sort out of this election, the Iraqi govt's main priority will be asking the US to get out. A strong man like Allawi (like Saddam before him) may be able to keep the democratic impulses at bay. Time will tell. I read somewhere earlier today that early returns indicate that Dick Cheney may have won the popular vote by a healthy margin. We will have to give him up, but the Iraqi people may have spoken on this matter.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:34:10 PM EST
    I often wonder how Auschwitz could have happened, then I read a post like John Cunningham's above and I remember.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:49:46 PM EST
    Someone on Roger Simon's blog posted this: link . [T]he final and permanent fruits of liberty are wisdom, moderation, and mercy. Its immediate effects are often atrocious crimes, conflicting errors, scepticism on points the most clear, dogmatism on points the most mysterious. It is just at this crisis that its enemies love to exhibit it. They pull down the scaffolding from the half- finished edifice. they point to the flying dust, the falling bricks, the comfortless rooms, the frightful irregularity of the whole appearance; and then ask in scorn where the promised splendour and comfort is to be found. If such miserable sophisms were to prevail, there would never be a good house or a good government in the world. . . -- Thomas B. Macaulay [remainder deleted due to length. This space is for comments, not reprinting blocks of text from others. Also, links must be in html format or they skew the site. I fixed this one, future ones will be deleted.]

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#6)
    by ras on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:50:27 PM EST
    To help, I wrote you guys on the Left a short little poem, based on Kipling. I hope it inspires you.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:50:30 PM EST
    troll comment deleted

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:56:25 PM EST
    Did you hear the word "Fallujah" on TV in the last 24 hours? I sure didn't.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:57:33 PM EST
    That's it, be relentlessly negative - no matter what. At least there are some rational people on the left - Talking Points memo is willing to call this a good day. You, on the other hand, consumed by hatred of the administration, can't.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 10:10:37 PM EST
    "Did you hear the word "Fallujah" on TV in the last 24 hours? I sure didn't." I did. A lot of people turned out to vote in Fallujah.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 10:18:06 PM EST
    If this election works-out Bush will have been right and that will be good for now, but what will happen say one to ten years down the line? it could be the start of real freedom or it could be the start of a real enemy that will know how to fight us our way. I am Happy that it was not a real bad blood bath.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 11:36:18 PM EST
    I hate to burst any self-centered bubbles, but the Iraqis didn't vote to prove any American partisan points. They did it for their own Iraqi reasons and their own Iraqi future. (Besides, does anybody know yet who actually won the election? You know, it could matter.)

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:24:00 AM EST
    I did. A lot of people turned out to vote in Fallujah.
    No, they didn't

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#15)
    by john horse on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 03:36:41 AM EST
    According to Wolcott, the tv networks were not free to go to whatever polling station they wanted but were limited to a list of 5 polling stations where turnout was expected to be heavy. This was wrong. It was also wrong for the tv networks to not mention this in their reportage, not to mention wrong for them to allow themselves (and the viewing public) to be manipulated.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:41:06 AM EST
    I think Juan Cole provides a good counterpoint to the Administration's filtering of news from Iraq. And clearly he has sources most of the major news agencies don't. But I really start to wonder when I read his column this morning. 44 deaths? In a nation wracked by civil war? I have to think that 44 Americans die in traffic accidents on their way to the polls Election Day, but we don't start vapouring as a result. Cranky

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:26:50 AM EST
    well their population is 1/10 of ours and we don't have many people killed because they are voting. Nonetheless the truly good news is that violence was low compared to expectations. But since almost no Sunnis voted, the long term result of this election is far from guaranteed. The big question is how are the Kurds and Sunnis going to feel after the constitution is drawn up. If they feel their interests are protected for the most part then Iraq will be on the road to recovery and ultimate success. If they don't its going to be more of the same or worse for a very long time. I don't believe there is any way to know how these political issues are going to work themselves out. Just have to wait and see.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 06:27:33 AM EST
    just like jumping on the bandwagon when it suits your political needs paul? Where was your concern when we were dropping bombs on Fullajah? Only now you seem concerned about helping the Iraqis. Self-serving Hypocrite.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:13:18 AM EST
    Lets hope the Shia can forget the last 1,300 years.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:34:00 AM EST
    Even when the poll numbers are revised (60%-75%) turn out, this is still a great victory. That is higher than many US election turn-out. And we are talking about people braving death threats from insurgents to come out to vote. There is no denial that many of them, at least 60%, want this democracy real bad. The only reason I see people being negative is that they have an agenda or they are partisan. No matter what mistakes Bush made and how high the body toll, he will be remembered to be the one who brought Iraq elections.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:38:46 AM EST
    Justpaul, the numbers are unofficial. From what source? But don't let accuracy get in the way. We probably killed that many in our two attacks on Fallujah. Random Sunni puts it in perspective. If I remember correctly, the Shias have not held major power since the time of the prophet Muhammad. Since then they have been under the power of others mainly Sunnis when not occupied by imperialists. So how are the going to react when they are in power? Will there be "payback" for all the abuse they have taken especially in Iraq at the hands of Saddams men? How are the Shiites in other countries still rulled by Sunnis going to react? are they going to feel empowered?

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:50:39 AM EST
    Soccerdad, Fair enough. But if these results are "unofficial" so are the ones that led you to state that none of the people in Fallujah had voted. As for the rest of your argument, it seems to be that we should not welcome the political enfranchisement of a majority population on the grounds that they have not held power in a long time, have in fact been subjugated, and may well seek revenge on those who subjugated them once they gain power. So I guess you were against the end of apartheid in South Africa as well? I suppose you opposed the freedom of the Eastern European countries that were part of the Socviet Bloc? Or is it only muslims that do not deserve freedom in your view? GregZ, I don't know what bandwagon you are referring to. I have been in favor of these elections from the beginning. Take your troll bait elsewhere.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:10:44 AM EST
    "With regards to this election vindicating the policies of the present Administration, one can at best say that Iraqi turnout happened despite the myriad American blunders being discussed, now that Bush is re-elected, by liberals and conservatives alike." I think it is pretty clear that if there is no war, there will be no election. Saddam will still be there torturing and killing his own people. Now you can argue that the price of this election is high. But I bet that there were people who argued back in the early 1940s that we should not have in WW2. The US killed lots of Germans and Japanese back then, with nuclear weapons, no less. And the world is a better place because of that.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#26)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:18:32 AM EST
    I've said it before. This is a decent step in the right direction, but nothing more. When IRAQ is capable of hosting elections without locking down the country, berift of the service of thousands of US troops, then I will agree that Democracy has taken root. Until then, I'll continue my skepticism. Also: From the NYT 09/04/1967 "U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote : Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2) WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here. (above first seen at DK) Hopefully the current efforts will be more successful in the long term. I'm not saying Iraq=Vietnam. I'm only suggesting that in this history is a lesson to be guarded in our optimism. Glen Wishard- I live near enough to Kansas that I'm reminded constantly every time the wind blows from that direction. If only I could harness all that hot air in the wintertime. Have to find a way to get rid of the stench first, though.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:35:41 AM EST
    Something GOOD happened in Iraq yesterday. No, it wasn't perfect. Yes, there is a long way to go. But so many on the Left are so entrenched in their hatred of Bush, they simply refuse to let their egos slip just a bit and be positive for a change. It was a good day for Iraqis.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:38:02 AM EST
    It could have been better -- but Bushco couldn't be bothered to do any planning except for things that benefit their contributors. The fact is the election was held inspite of the best attempts of the Bush administration to screw it up.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 10:18:18 AM EST
    Dearest No Name - What? If I remember, numerous people, including Democrats were saying NOT to hold the election. Really. Statements like this make me fall down laughing. Do you think they leave you any credible position? Jon F - Exactly. It is a start. But everything must start, or else they never move. I don't understand why the Left can't just view it as that without making comments like Dearest No Name. Adept - "This isn't Kansas, Dorthy." And the Left no longer rules the media, so a political victory - withdrawal of our troops to satisfy the Left's demands - is not going to happen as it did in Vietnam. Dearest No Name # 2 - Well said. Saddam wouldn't have just given up and left.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:24:54 PM EST
    Yeh - Another tour de force of ends/means obfuscatory bologna - though it has been expressed more eloquently during the Reign of Terror and more recently by a certain WWI decorated,frustrated painter,who could turn a phrase. Of course,you answer to a higher authority dont you? And you dont have to get your hands dirty/bloody either.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#32)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:30:28 PM EST
    justpaul first I never said that no one voted second the conclusions you drew about my argument are at best ridiculous. I never said we shouldn't do anything, thats your supposition. I merely pointed out some consequences of the Shiites having power in order to shed a tiny bit of light on what might happen. But thank you for your many useless strawmen

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:52:15 PM EST
    Wimpy coward who won't post a name writes:
    I think it is pretty clear that if there is no war, there will be no election. Saddam will still be there torturing and killing his own people.
    My point is that elections would have happened in the near future under a number of scenarios. Also - Give me a break with the "poor Iraqis being tortured and killed under Saddam" proving that "it's a good thing we INVADED them". I don't believe you or any other member of the right-wing, death-penalty supporting, expectant mother-hating, abuse isn't torture, kill all the Moslems and who gives a F*** about Africa MF'ers giving a damn about anyone who isn't sitting next to you in Church waving a flag. Anonymous Coward also writes:
    But I bet that there were people who argued back in the early 1940s that we should not have in WW2. The US killed lots of Germans and Japanese back then, with nuclear weapons, no less. And the world is a better place because of that.
    That's right. Joseph Kennedy did and lost everything. HOWEVER, before you start showing clips of Saving Private Ryan and Shindler's list to drum up support for Iraq, allow me to point out HOW STUPID, IGNORANT, UNINFORMED AND DISINGENUOUS this comparison is. LET IT GO!! Germany launched a unilateral and aggressive war of vengeance and ethnic cleansing against it's victors from WWI. It occupied/annexed a number of countries including Poland, France, Austria and parts of Eastern Europe. A reminder, btw, that Hitler was an ULTRA-RIGHT Wing supporter of Facism. His uber-enemy was the ultra-left heresy - Communism (an attempt to impose government by the people through military force, I might add. Sound familiar?) When Saddam invaded Kuwait, America responded with support across the board for military action. When America realized that Afghanistan was not just a festering sore in the Near East, but was a breeding ground for the marriage of Islamic fundamentalism thoughts of Jihad and a ready made (and armed) Islamic army (rememeber the Afghan freedom fighters of Reagan's tenure?), we acted militarily (and correctly in the worlds opinion). It was the rare dove who wasn't hawkish after 9/11 re: Afghanistan. 2. It is understandable that in a time of war we would want to regale the people with visons of previous military victories. This is one of the oldest forms of propaganda used to rob people of their children and justify military aggression. It is shameful and not worthy of a democracy.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:54:13 PM EST
    PPJ - The left "ruled the media"?! Youre truely hilarious. Also,this repeated ad-nauseum contention of yours speaks volumes about how much genuine respect,you,thier psuedo defender,actually have for the intelligence and dignity of the average American - basically sheep lead by the media - excuse me,the "left wing" media. Your red state,crowd-control model and attitude is right out of the neocon textbook.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#35)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 01:19:51 PM EST
    now jondee... Leave PPJ his delusions. He's nice enough to forsake curing them so he has more time to come over to cure other people of theirs. PPJ- I'm confused. Exactly which of the five corporations that have controlled 95%+ of the media outlets had a board of directors which made it their mission to become a leftist propaganda machine? I expect you can provide their names and their affiliations, or should I just dismiss it as typical rhetoric. Anyone honest with themselves would admit that the US has historically had "partisan" press from both the left and right. If anything has dominated the last couple decades, it's been bland corporate pablum, designed to ignore real issues, and kill off actual investigative journalism.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:05:54 PM EST
    The true success of the Iraqi elections is simply the turnout. Iraq is a place where NO ONE feels comfortable speaking their mind or letting their opinions be known. YEARS of brutality, dictatorship, and secret police have led to this- and after one day 70% of Iraqis now realize they share common purpose with those around them. That coupled with the sense of OWNERSHIP elections bring will go a long way toward driving a stake in the heart of the insurgency. I would expect increased and better intelligence from informants to be the most immediate change. On the other side of the coin, the newly elected have to form coalitions amongst the 200 plus parties, then write a constitution that 1)reaches out to the Sunnis, 2)Gives the Kurds an acceptable level of Autonomy, 3)protects the interests of the Christians, Marsh Arabs, Turkomans, Circassians, and other minorities, 4) distributes oil revenues fairly, and do all of these without alienating any faction too severely! This is a tall order, although by no means impossible. The Terrorists will HAVE to make some sort of spectacular attack in an attempt to remain relevant- otherwise they will continue to descend into simple gangsterism. The numbers of Hajis coming to Iraq to fight appear to be decreasing, the only explanation I can see for that is the "Muslim killing Muslim" spectre recent attacks by Zarqawi has raised may be turning off a lot of recruits. Many of those who turn to Al Qaeda and other groups become disaffected as a result of their own oppressive regimes (and the real and percieved support for those governments by the US over the past forty years). The prospect for Democracy is not unappealing to many in the mideast, and Zarqawi's declaration of war against it is certain to turn off a segment of Al Qaeda's support base. We are not out of the woods yet by any means, but the trendlines have been in our favor for several months now, and this is a big step forward.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:15:43 PM EST
    According to the linked-to Raed in the Middle, it seems turnout was helped along by threats to deny food rations to those who didn't vote. If true, just our own little variation of Tammany on the Tigris. Freedom, freedom, freedom.... democracy, democracy, democracy... say it enough times and it means everything is good and wonderful (and free pie too).

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:31:07 PM EST
    Republicans: "Iraqis are like Gerald Ford can't vote and guard at the same time" The next priority, Republicans said, must be fully training an Iraqi security force so that the country can protect its own fledgling government and the 150,000 U.S. troops in Iraq ultimately can return home. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., said the United States can't train all of the Iraqi forces alone and must recruit its allies. "We haven't reached out to the Europeans and to the Arab countries to help," he said. "Of course I thought this would have been done two years ago but it hasn't been. I am hopeful it will be."

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 03:29:04 PM EST
    jondee and Adept - The corporate ownership you speak of is concerned about ad rates, which means dollars. They care not one wit about content. Note CNN never paid much attention about their news coverage until they started to lose viewers. But, during the Vietnam era, there only were three networks that provided the news to the american people. This concentration of power let them do whatever they pleased, with almost no accountability. Thus Walter Cronkite could intone daily that, "And that's the way it is," with little fear that someone would say, "BS." That, of course, is no longer true, as you well know, and as you have complained about. BTW - Adept, I hope you are no longer confused. And "denial" is not a river in Egypt. Dearest No Name - We haven't reached out? Senator Nelson needs to retire immediately and start treatment for severe memory problems.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimcee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 03:40:43 PM EST
    Ah the not so subtle whine of sore losers. Look, the Iraqi people voted despite your pessimism, how does it feel to have a blue ink stained finger shoved in your eye? The Left has finally gone around the bend to the point where they can't at least feel some empathy for the Iraqis and for a chance at self rule without the junior college brain trust crying foul. Anti democracy pro fascist folks seem to inhabit that New Left domain. Man what a bunch of jerks. A lacking of a grounding in history, a spoiled brat "know it all attitude", a certain "my way is the only way" attitude, bad sporting and over all pathetic, emotionally driven idiots. Nice. Can't wait for the next election here with Dr. Dean running the DNC. It looks to me that the Dems are going the way of the Whigs. Heh.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:07:00 PM EST
    PPJ - Thank God that radical fire-brand,that pinko fifth-columnist Cronkite got put out to pasture - we might all be speaking Vietnamese or Cuban or Spanish or whatever...And youre right Jim,the ones holding the purse-strings "care not one wit about content" - unless a aforementioned content might detrimentally effect thier market-share or ruffle the feathers of only-a-phone-call-away major share holders - and of course that never happens.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:16:10 PM EST
    WELL PUT JIMCEE,MY SON IN FALLUGAH USMC IS ON CLOUD NINE TODAY AND CANT WAIT TO LIBERATE SYRIA.REMEMBER IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS CALLED "OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM"IF BUSH WASNT REELECTED THE ELECTIONS NEVER WOULDHAVE HAPPENED.THE LEFT HAVE NOW LOST 3 IN A ROW

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#43)
    by ras on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:34:17 PM EST
    "My goal is to be right two times out of three" --Teddy Roosevelt You guys on the Left need to learn from ol' Ted. Just say oops and learn from your mistake, cuz insistence against the facts sure don't work anymore when the Web has made fact-checking so much easier. Write it off as a 1 in 3 spot of bad luck and "move on." Couldda happened to anyone.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:43:30 PM EST
    As I was saying... Like the clerics of old, who refused to accept the facts revealed by Galileo's telescope, Peanut Gallery and his ilk cleave to their programmed party dogma, comdemnimg the events unfolding before them because these events fly in the face of their cherished orthodoxy. Like the physicians who refused to accept Pasteur's germ theory of disease and disected cadavers and then performed operations without washing their hands, thses types will hold off advance until they finally die off. How pathetic to see these "progressives" cling to their backward minority status quo notions. It took 500 years for the church to apologize to Galileo. Don't hold your breath for these clowns. Ras, Jim, et. al., see what happens when you throw your pearls before swine?

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:08:17 PM EST
    jondee - Are you so paranoid that you believe that if the commercial side of a network tried to run the news side of that netrwork it wouldn't be reported with much clicking of tongues and pointing of fingers bythe other networks? Come on. You are more rational than that. And yes, thank God that Uncle Walter is retired. BTW - Did you catch him on Larry King just after the OBL tape? He speculated that the whole thing might well be a Rove plot.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:15:43 PM EST
    People on the right, calm down and stop freaking out about people daring to be angry at Bush even after the election. I'm incredibly relieved by how well the election went -- first good thing to come out of this cyclone of a war -- but there's still plenty to be skeptical about and a lot of pathetic past mistakes on the part of the Administration that have yet to be addressed.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:28:07 PM EST
    Soccerdad, Approximately 8000 people voted in Fallujah as per link It's still a very small percentage (about 4%) of the people in Fallujah, but 8000 people is still 8000 people. Writing them off as nonexistent because it suits your partisan needs is unworthy of a so-called "progressive".

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:46:40 PM EST
    President Bush is on the right path to world stability and freedom. Poor Hilary is sick about it.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:59:49 PM EST
    PPJ: Murdoch doesn't care about content? You're not serious are u

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 06:26:52 PM EST
    So....who won and what are they going to do for the Iraqi people? Still can't get a clear picture. The fact that the Iraqi people have benefitted from GWB's lies is great. I am truly happy for every Iraqi who was able to cast a vote. My fear is that my President and my country will diminish the whole thing by setting up a puppet government, taking their oil and bringing in McDonalds. I wish I could believe Bush when he says this is about liberty. I still think it's about money. When he "frees" a poor nation with no oil or strategic location to offer us...I'll believe.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 06:42:13 PM EST
    And although figures were so supposed to be released on the election --the release has now been delayed Gee I guess they won't put the figures out until after the president's speech so he can lie with impunity - I guess turn out isn't what is being advertised.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:05:29 PM EST
    Jimcee, Can you show me a quote where a liberal commenter predicts that no one would vote in Iraq? I thought the people sweating it were the Administation and you-all. The left has nothing to lose and everything to gain with high voter turnout. The right had everything to lose if thing didn't go their way. And like the election - could have gone either way. [remainder deleted for insults and name-calling, commenter warned.]

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:17:03 PM EST
    499 years, 364 days to go...

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#53)
    by ras on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:29:15 PM EST
    Ace, For every rigid Leftie who openly spurns the facts - we all know who they are - there will be hundreds of silent readers (maybe thousands depending on how hot the site is on any given day) who choose to listen, rather than speak, and who over time haven't painted themselves into the same corner. Remember, in the last 20 years there has been a steady stream of Dems switching to become R's, and/or to vote that way. It takes time, but it's there, so reason does work, albeit at its own pace. Any comment, by any commenter, is something of an open letter, which is why I try to avoid giving insults and ridicule, and just ignore any crap directed back my way; the truth itself can be harsh enough.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:31:34 PM EST
    Bush is incompetent. Show us the audit for Iraq money missing -- As for the election -it took every troop in the place - a total lockdown and still the same level of violence they see everyday. And those turnout figures keep getting revised downward --now the WH isn't even giving numbers. This what happenes when Republican spin is reported as news -- It will be interesting to see what numbers the president uses in the state of union tomorrow and will there be fact checking

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#13)
    by Andreas on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:25:40 PM EST
    The election January 30 in Iraq marks a further intensification of the contradictions confronting American imperialism, both in Iraq and at home. It will neither resolve the crisis of the American stooge regime in Baghdad, hated and despised by the vast majority of the Iraqi people, nor legitimize the US occupation in the eyes of world and among large sections of the American public.
    Iraq elections set stage for deeper crisis of US occupation regime By Patrick Martin, 31 January 2005

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#54)
    by chupetin on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:27:25 PM EST
    Ras,Cliff,Jim and the rest of you, some of the reasons we on the Left are a tad skeptical of this administration can be found here,take a look at this

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 06:48:29 AM EST
    Agreed, Ras. Speaking over their heads to the greater audience here is an excellent strategy.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 07:31:20 AM EST
    One thing in Iraq goes relatively well and GW becomes FDR? Give me a break. I'm glad Iraqis got to vote, I hope it works out and they get their freedom, and American kids get home where they belong ASAP. But this isn't a "victory" of any sort until Iraq is sovereign. It's still not our job to spread freedom by force. Freedom is never given, it's taken. I've got my own freedom to protect, and lately it needs protection from my own gov't, not a foreign power. Not that I believe for a minute the US gov't gives a rats arse about some arab's freedom. If we did, we wouldn't have supported Saddam, or continue to support the tyrannical Saudi Arabian regime. Don't believe the rhetoric, it holds water like a toilet paper dam.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#57)
    by Kitt on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 07:54:27 AM EST
    I don't know Chuptien...it's pretty darned long; it'll take some concentrating - we'll see how many actually read it. There was this as well , which is much, much shorter, mentioning the importance of the region historically and its destruction by American troops.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 02:30:29 PM EST
    I read it Chupetin. I remember all of these quotes individually, but they really hit home when linked chronologically like they were. Thanks for the reference material.

    Re: Post-Election Analysis (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 08:06:02 PM EST
    mfox, I didn't claim anything except that Leftists seemed to be rooting for a terrorist future for Iraq and that is sad. Yes I was sweating it out to see what would happen because I was hoping for the best for Iraqis and subsequently for our troops return. Many on the Left were rooting in the opposite direction. And that is sad, wishing the worst on someone so that you could say "I told you so". It is the shallowness of the new Left. Reactionary to the point of cruel. Again, I can only say that as long as the Left is as negative as you are it is the death knell for the Left. And that is bad for society overall as we all need a yin/yan kind of thing for our national health.