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Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients?

The New York Times Magazine today has a lengthy article on whether ecstasy, reputedly a mind-altering drug, can help those suffering from cancer or post-traumatic stress disorder. We wrote about the new studies into the subject that the FDA has authorized here and here.

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    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:16:39 PM EST
    The article is mostly about Dr. Shulgin's personal history. The theraputic use of MDMA is a hook, since he (re)discovered the drug and reintroduced it to society, but that's not the focus of the article at all.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:30:16 PM EST
    I would suggest not to wait to be afflicted with terminal cancer before trying it. Should be more fun.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:43:34 PM EST
    Test

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#5)
    by glanton on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:45:57 PM EST
    Come on, pigwiggle, where are you on this one? As if I don't know ;-)

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:52:27 PM EST
    TestAA

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#7)
    by bad Jim on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:11:42 AM EST
    It does seem rather pointless to restrict the availability of dangerous drugs to terminal patients, who may not survive their side effects. It's particularly pointless to deny them drugs whose deleterious effects are merely speculative, like psychedelics. In the case of cannabis, for which toxicity is practically unknown and whose mode of operation is only now becoming understood (see the December issue of the Scientific American), the denial is unconscionable. American medicinal practice has long been criticized for the inadequacy of its palliative care, while Americans are among the world's most enthusiastic consumers of recreational drugs. If anything, we're addicted to hypocrisy.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#9)
    by glanton on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:16:28 AM EST
    piwiggle: Speaking of your hatred of the FDA, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. When you go to the grocery store does it ever occur to you that the FDA is the reason why we have these magnificently safe places to buy food, drink, and medicine? Our grocery stores, as you know, are arguably the wonder of the entire world.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#10)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:27:24 AM EST
    “does it ever occur to you that the FDA is the reason why we have these magnificently safe places to buy food, drink, and medicine?” It occurs to me companies sell safe food because folks want safe food. It’s funny that the FDA and it’s supporters love to tout the lives saved by some new drug they have approved but never speak of the thousands that died during their twelve years of review. And it’s not like they gave these dieing folks a choice to wait or not. Well, I guess they did; die free or die in jail.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:24:35 AM EST
    It does seem rather pointless to restrict the availability of dangerous drugs to terminal patients, who may not survive their side effects.
    ...I did almost laugh myself to death doing some shrooms on a camping trip... On the other hand, I can imagine that things could "go bad" under the influence of psychedelics as media in trouble points out. I've never tried X but don't rule it out from beneficial use just because the government thinks "its bad for me."

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#13)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:55:08 AM EST
    “It is obvious to me that you know nothing about science nor its effect on society.” It is strange you have such a firm grasp on the extent of my knowledge of science and it’s societal impact from a single post. Are you a clairvoyant, or just trite? “The problem with you libertarian/ republican screw the government types is that you seem to drastically forget your history.” Save the history lesson, I know why the FDA was formed. If a company sells a product and lies about it’s efficacy and safety they should be sued for fraud and the stockholders held proportionally liable. Further, if a company wants me to buy it’s product they will need to show to my satisfaction that it works and is safe. It shouldn’t be my job to fund an agency and law to save you from your own stupidity. A law which restricts my freedom and is enforced through the full force and violence of the federal government. As a side note; I like how you neatly categorized me and further packaged libertarians and republicans alike. Why not just US and THEM, it would simplify things and easy the need for critical thought. “PLUS, if the FDA gets an application for a drug that really truly does show that it is a great benefit (with minimal risk) to society they have a cute "fast-track" mechanism of approving those drugs.” Well, this makes the untenable restriction of my liberty so much easier to swallow, thanks. With friends like these…

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:55:52 AM EST
    Media in Trouble- "The FDA only takes about 6 months to review a drug" Unless of course, it's RU-486 or a morning after pill to prevent pregnancy. Then the non-scientific ideologues will have to hold them up for years "for further review" because it might upset the superstitious.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#16)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:37:43 AM EST
    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#17)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:58:36 AM EST
    “OK so how are you going to know they are lying about a drug's efficacy unless that drug is arsenic and in sufficient quatities to kill you.” Well, a clinical trial. Suppose the company lied and forged a clinical trial, it would then go on the market several years. A concerned party might survey the results and there you have your lawsuit. “Did you know how much tuna was safe to eat?” I still don’t, score one for the FDA. Are they going to outlaw fish now? “Do you want us all to die so that you can keep the world to yourself?” I see you took my advice and divvied along US and THEM; sadly I see I didn’t make it into US. “If you think companies can police themselves you are dead wrong and the recent vioxx scandal is the perfect example of how it can go so wrong. … yes the company took it off the market but it had known of the dangers for over 4 years before it did so.” First, the FDA failed miserably to identify any problems with vioxx; when Merck did realize a problem they informed the FDA and voluntarily pulled the drug worldwide. This is a crappy example to use in making your point. The tests you refer to were far from conclusive, complicated by the positive effects of cox-# inhibition on the heart. Merck responsibly continued testing past FDA approval and identified a problem. Further, it isn’t unreasonable to expect a problem with a given drug to surface only after 20-30yrs. of use; eliminating the usefulness of clinical trial to show safety. But look, it isn’t the duty of the chemists, staff, and stockholders of Merck or any other drug company to improve your life. If you would rather not participate in the grand experiment that is 21st century drug design you are free not to. I wish you would extend the same courtesy to me and let me participate.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    The New York Times Magazine today has a lengthy article on whether ecstasy, reputedly a mind-altering drug, can help those suffering from cancer or post-traumatic stress disorder. We wrote about the new studies into the subject that the FDA has authorized here and here.
    "Reputedly"? Whether or not it might have some therapeutic use, where is there any serious dispute over whether MDMA is mind- (and brain-) altering?

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 10:34:23 AM EST
    for the record i dont like the euphamism "mind altering" perception altering would be better. if we were to categorize drugs as mind altering, I think many legal drugs could be considered as such. anyone ever get a shot of demerol?

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 11:52:44 AM EST
    cm: perception is the key word. see current social security debate privatization vs. personal accounts vs. life cycle accounts vs. any other euphamism. by framing the words of the debate you can always change peoples minds about the legality. the media does it all the time dont it? mind altering is just another semantic leading the person reading it to think... hmm i dont want anything altering my MIND?!?! What if it gets altered for good? Isn't altering that thing they do to cats and dogs when they chop off their...

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 11:53:23 AM EST
    Don't jump on me pigwiggle - we got on so nicely last week... I understand and deep down sympathize with your libertarian "get the government out of my business" stance, but let me throw you my version of a curve ball into that theory. Just as power in our criminal justice system is not evenly divided between the state and the accused (despite the cries of unfairness from victim's advocate groups, the state wins hands down), power is not evenly distributed between powerful American business/corporate interests and the citizen/workers of this country. I see a regulatory role for the government in balancing the inherent power and influence of those who sell us goods and services (and whose primary fealty is to the shareholders - not to America or it's customers) against undisclosed side effects, risks, false claims and misleading ads which we are vulnerable to based on the above inequality. The trouble with government programs such as the FDA is that they are subject to these same powerful corporate influences that individual citizens are. The Vioxx dilemna has shown the FDA to be corrupted and it's power usurped by getting into bed with the drug companies. So, PW, you're right, the FDA is fairly useless, and Media is right also, they could and should do so much more - we need it!

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:04:45 PM EST
    mfox i think you said it best dankeshane

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#26)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:49:20 PM EST
    mfox- “power is not evenly distributed between powerful American business/corporate interests and the citizen/workers of this country.” Consumers and labor have a great deal of power; labor can organize and consumers can boycott or simply not consume. Without consumers and labor there is no corporation. Corporations don’t have the power to force you to buy things from them or force you to work for them. “I see a regulatory role for the government in balancing the inherent power and influence of those who sell us goods and services” Corporations are in a better position to lobby our legislators; they have more capital, more human resources. Corporations game regulations fantastically, reaping large subsidies and discouraging competition. The regulatory framework you would have check the power of corporations is a wellspring of power for them. And apparently we agree- “The trouble with government programs such as the FDA is that they are subject to these same powerful corporate influences that individual citizens are.” MIT- The propensity for vioxx to promote heart disease was masked by the design of the study. The vioxx study wasn’t designed to measure an effect on the heart but rather it’s ability to fight cancer. The control group was on a cox inhibitor that was known to prevent heart disease. However, assuming they lied intentionally; how is it in their best interests and the interests of their shareholders? Merck is in the hole with the costs of bringing vioxx to market, and now they will likely loose many times their investment in legal costs. Intentionally marketing a known lethal drug as safe is a poor business model.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 01:18:56 PM EST
    Pigwiggle, I appreciate your comments, but take issue with some:
    Consumers and labor have a great deal of power; labor can organize and consumers can boycott or simply not consume.
    I would not disagree that consumers and labor have a great deal of power. So does a criminal defendent and his lawyer. However, when compared to the power of the "other" (i.e. state, corporate) interestes, our power in these areas are being continually challenged, chipped away at and eroded by the same actions that are castrating the FDA. So, I say, with regulatory agencies, we have some chance. With none, we have no chance at all. I hold Wal-mart's business model up as an example of our loss of labor and consumer rights - they attempt to rob us of labor rights by eliminating competition and strong anti-union tactics, as well as eliminating small business competition, forcing folks to shop there who would otherwise shop elsewhere. Also, you say:
    However, assuming they lied intentionally; how is it in their best interests and the interests of their shareholders?
    Corporate Beancounters use what I consider a disgusting formula of measuring the expected profits to be reaped from drug sales against potential liability for lawsuits. The auto industry does the same. Their rationale goes: "If one out of every 5,000 consumers suffers a problem this product is liable for, and we have to pay them, say, $1M, if we can make more than $1M profit on the other 4,999 people then the product's a go. It's called cost/benefit analysis and theoretically is a core principle of corporate responsibility to shareholders. You're very brave, wanting to take your chances. Of course, from other postings I take it your wife has "inside info" into the cost/benefits of specific drugs - maybe you're counting on her judgment?

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 01:32:18 PM EST
    To get back to the main thrust of the posting (if not the actual artcle) that the dying should have access to something that ameliorates their discomfort and fear should be a no brainer. (And yes, I have used MDMA, twice, but under clinical conditions with a psychologist friend who 'sat' for me. I would not ever recommend this as a 'club drug'; this is a form of methamphetamine and deserves respect for being such. But it is unsually effective at allowing a patient to confront deep traumas and fears without the usual 'defense mechanisms' getting in the way. This is a tool that should be used with care, not a toy to play with on Saturday night.)

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#29)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 01:51:23 PM EST
    mfox- We could go around about regulation all day and I would rather not, but there is one point you posted I want to comment on. “You're very brave, wanting to take your chances.” Drugs are a very unique kind of product in that they are guaranteed to kill a certain proportion of folks. I don’t take chances and refuse to take any new drug. If the consequences of not taking a drug are severe I’ll gamble. For me its plain old aspirin, I’ll let others test out the vioxxes if they want; I don’t presume to have any right to tell others what they can take. The FDA’s model is ‘guilty until proven innocent’, which you may notice is mine as well, but we diverge at forced prohibition.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:34:31 PM EST
    Fair enough, pigwiggle. But let's say that a loved one is dying of cancer, for example, and the doctor proposes a life saving new treatment. Of course, you must at least consider it. My question is, how do you find out what the real risks are? Clearly, based on the Vioxx issue, disclosure of risks is a fault-ridden process that begs examination. But here, I say, don't be in a hurry to throw the baby out with the bathwater. No one's in a hurry to dismantle the CIA because they aren't doing their job.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:14:30 PM EST
    pigwiggle --It is strange you have such a firm grasp on the extent of my knowledge of science and it’s societal impact from a single post. Are you a clairvoyant, or just trite. lol!!!

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:34:07 PM EST
    for the record i dont like the euphamism "mind altering" perception altering would be better.
    I don't see a significant difference.
    if we were to categorize drugs as mind altering, I think many legal drugs could be considered as such.
    anyone ever get a shot of demerol Many legal drugs are mind- (or perception-, if you prefer) altering. That's hardly in dispute; legality has a lot to do with history (alcohol) or demonstrate therapeutic use (demerol), not merely whether a drug is mind-altering.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:00:36 PM EST
    pigly wigly first of all the studies that showed a signal 4 years ago WERE conclusive. the company says they werent but most of the doctors who worked on it and saw the report including people at the FDA said it was conclusive back then. Most drugs require follow-up by the companies to report any safety issues that are brought to their attention. I agree the FDA was part of the problem in the vioxx case. that is not because they suck as an agency but because government starvers that would like to get rid of the agency alltogether (correct me if I am wrong but I think you DO fall in this category) have forced the agency to limit the ammount of people working on these safety reports. Also the a** backwards way the FDA has been funded in part by the drug companies to shift the balance of resources more towards the approval side than the follow-up safety side was probably the worse piece of legislation passed regarding drug safety. so perhaps people such as yourself who would like the FDA to go away will succeed by using the vioxx case as an example of why the FDA is "inefficient" but the argument can always be made that in an environment where the regulator is regulated (economically) by the entity it is regulating, the consumer looses. have you read Naders "unsafe at any speed." another example of the corporations putting profits over consumer safety. seatbelts and airbags also came as a result of "government regulation."

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:02:06 PM EST
    I got taken in by this paragraph:
    Most of the scientific community considers Shulgin at best a curiosity and at worst a menace. Now, however, near the end of his career, his faith in the potential of psychedelics has at least a chance at vindication. A little more than a month ago, the Food and Drug Administration approved a Harvard Medical School study looking at whether MDMA can alleviate the fear and anxiety of terminal cancer patients. And next month will mark a year since Michael Mithoefer, a psychiatrist in Charleston, S.C., started his study of Ecstasy-assisted therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder. At the same time, with somewhat less attention, studies at the Harbor-U.C.L.A. Medical Center and the University of Arizona, Tucson, have focused on the therapeutic potential of psilocybin (the active ingredient in ''magic mushrooms''). It's far from a revolution, but it is an opening, and as both scientist and advocate, Shulgin has helped create it. If -- and it's a big ''if'' -- the results of the studies are promising enough, it might bring something like legitimacy to the Shulgin pharmacopoeia.


    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:06:48 PM EST
    Pigwiggle, It is obvious to me that you know nothing about science nor its effect on society. Fact: The FDA was formed because travelling poition sellers were selling diet pills which contained the "safe" eggs of tapeworms. They worked but people died of intestinal clogs because the tapeworms would grow in massive quatities in their gut. The problem with you libertarian/ republican screw the government types is that you seem to drastically forget your history. The FDA only takes about 6 months to review a drug, it is the studies that pharmaceutical companies must perform to get their "safe" drug on the market that sometimes takes 12 years. PLUS, if the FDA gets an application for a drug that really truly does show that it is a great benefit (with minimal risk) to society they have a cute "fast-track" mechanism of approving those drugs. as for x i hope these subjects dont have a bad trip during this study. nothing worse than being in massive pain and amplifying that with a psychadelic.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:07:46 PM EST
    adept havelock unfortunately you are correct pig: If a company sells a product and lies about it’s efficacy and safety they should be sued for fraud and the stockholders held proportionally liable. Further, if a company wants me to buy it’s product they will need to show to my satisfaction that it works and is safe OK so how are you going to know they are lying about a drug's efficacy unless that drug is arsenic and in sufficient quatities to kill you. Do you have a laboratory in your basement that will help you determine this? Possibly complete with little animals and people willing to be tastetesters for you. Let me ask you a question. Until the FDA said so, did you know how contaminated your fish was with mercury? Did you know how much tuna was safe to eat? If you did why didn't you tell the rest of us? Do you want us all to die so that you can keep the world to yourself? If you think companies can police themselves you are dead wrong and the recent vioxx scandal is the perfect example of how it can go so wrong. yes the company took it off the market but it had known of the dangers for over 4 years before it did so.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:27:10 PM EST
    Pigwiggle, Consumers and labor have a great deal of power; labor can organize and consumers can boycott or simply not consume. Without consumers and labor there is no corporation. Corporations don’t have the power to force you to buy things from them or force you to work for them. Well I guess that seems reasonable to any one but yourself. You wrote this on Jan 14 in response to my advocation of a puchasing boycott on the Inaugural. Please, what effect do you think this will have? Let say there is a substantial turnout (or is that turn-in?), no matter how unlikely. One less bottle of high priced booze for our CEO friends, one less meal for our working friends and their families. How many working stiffs do you know who are salaried? When I worked for my uncle (he owned a locksmith shop with 3 employees) we would close on slow days, to hell with my paycheck. And while your convincing yourself the panic is showing through on this board, fill me in on how many high rolling capitalists post here.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 06:47:24 AM EST
    I think the best description of these type of drugs is psycho-active. They cross the blood brain barrier easily and alter perception. Caffeine and nicotine are in this category and there is evidence that these popular psycho-active substances have health impact. There is a scientific and physiological basis for categorizing substances that is well established.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#33)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 08:03:00 AM EST
    “Well I guess that seems reasonable to any one but yourself.” You want to compare a single day of not eating out or going to a movie to organized strikes and boycotts? The Montgomery Bus boycott; lasted more than a year and had the full participation of the 42,000 black residents of Montgomery; clearly a pivotal moment in the desegregation of public transportation. How different do you think this would have been if it lasted a single day; simply 8 less hours on every Montgomery bus driver’s paycheck. The notODDD was a lame idea, face it. I believe you said the capitalists were running scared? Time for a retraction?

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    Pigwiggle, It's not about me contradicting myself, which you have been unable to point out. My point is that you contradicted yourself and no amount of qualifying is going to change that. Keep wiggling. You're busted.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 03:06:31 PM EST
    “My point is that you contradicted yourself and no amount of qualifying is going to change that.” My point was clear, putting off purchases or refusing to buy discretionary items for a single day only hurts the little guy. Further, sustained boycotts and strikes can and have righted substantial wrongs. You have simply claimed a contradiction and not shown one; parse my post and prove a contradiction. “It's not about me contradicting myself, which you have been unable to point out.” You’re absolutely right, you didn’t contradict yourself. You were just wrong. And so what, we are all wrong from time to time. However, bravo for bringing all our attention back to the dismal failure of your much hyped ‘not one damn dime day’. I had all but forgotten your bravado.

    Re: Ecstasy: Can it Help Cancer Patients? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:26:20 PM EST
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